Who does this verse refer to?

Hank77 said:

That word goy in Hebrew simply means nation, any nation including the nation of Israel. Goyim is the people of a nation, including the people of Israel.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

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Goy is a word Israeli Jews used to identify a Gentile. Goyim is used to describe Gentiles plural. They do not call themselves Goyim. They are Jewish. They are Israeli Jews. There are also Israeli Arabs and Palestinians. I was called Goy in Israel. It did not sound like a compliment. There were also Jewish and Arab Christians who wanted to share their witness for Christ with me.

dqhall said:

Goy is a word Israeli Jews used to identify a Gentile. Goyim is used to describe Gentiles plural. They do not call themselves Goyim. They are Jewish. They are Israeli Jews. There are also Israeli Arabs and Palestinians. I was called Goy in Israel. It did not sound like a compliment. There were also Jewish and Arab Christians who wanted to share their witness for Christ with me.

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I don't care what Jews call gentiles or what they call themselves by the traditions of men. I am talking about how the words goy/gowy are used in Hebrew in the Bible. H1471
Exodus 19:6 (KJV)
1 Chronicles 17:21 (KJV)

In the second link look down to 1Chronicles 17:21 at the parsing for that verse. The first time 'gowy' is used for nation it is talking about Israel and the second time the same word is used, in the same verse, it is talking about the gentile nations.

Devin P said:

95% of the time It's used to talk about people that aren't Israelites though. Which is why there's consistently two groups:

Hebrews and non hebrews.

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The English word 'nation' is used over 145 times in 127 verses in the Bible. Can you find one time that the word translated as 'nation' in the OT is not the Hebrew word 'goy/gowy?

The only reason that I point this out is because of what was said in another post. If someone is trying to figure out if something like 'a multitude of nations' is referring to gentile nations or if it's referring to the nations/tribes of Israel, they cannot do that by looking at the word nations in the Hebrew.

LXX

Genesis 48:19 - καὶ οὐκ ἠθέλησεν ἀλλὰ εἶπεν οἶδα τέκνον οἶδα καὶ οὗτος ἔσται εἰς λαόν καὶ οὗτος ὑψωθήσεται ἀλλὰ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ ὁ νεώτερος μείζων αὐτοῦ ἔσται καὶ τὸ σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἔσται εἰς πλῆθος ἐθνῶν

Ethnon - nation / people - nationalities

G: 4128. pléthos - a great number - From pléthó (to be full)


Received Text

Romans 11:25 Οὐ γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν ἀδελφοί τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο ἵνα μὴ ἦτεπαρ᾽ ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γέγονεν ἄχρις οὗτὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ

G: 4138: pléróma -- fullness

Devin P said:

Truth - Psalm 119:142 - Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law (Torah - H8451) is the truth.

Spirit - Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

God's Torah is truth, and God's Torah is spiritual. That is how we are to worship Him.

Why did Jesus say the scribes and pharisees professed with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him? Because, they traded their own man-made doctrines and traditions, for the Torah. They preached the Torah, but put far more importance on their nonsensical traditions, as opposed to the truth.

I digress though, my point is made in Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 37:15-19
15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

Here God says that He will combine the stick of Judah, with the stick of Ephraim, and they will be one in His hand. Why is this so important? What does Ephraim have to do with anything? Well, if we go back to the blessing Jacob gave to Ephraim in Genesis 48:

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he (Manasseh) also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother (Ephraim) shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a "multitude of nations" (fullness of the gentiles - "melo H4393 hagoyim" H1471)

Here we see that Jacob prophesied that Ephraim was to become multitude of nations, or as it's written in the original hebrew "melo hagoyim" which means, fulness of the gentiles.

This is where Paul gets the phrase, fulness of the gentiles in Romans 11. We are joined together with Judah, into Israel. Literally, not just spiritually. They are natural born, we are grafted in, but all belong on the same tree nonetheless now, as our roots are all in what Jesus has done for us.

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The point is that you will not worship the father on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.Which effects mosaic law. Salvation was from the Jews but it is now from Christ in spirit and truth.

Hank77 said:

I don't care what Jews call gentiles or what they call themselves by the traditions of men. I am talking about how the words goy/gowy are used in Hebrew in the Bible. H1471
Exodus 19:6 (KJV)
1 Chronicles 17:21 (KJV)

In the second link look down to 1Chronicles 17:21 at the parsing for that verse. The first time 'gowy' is used for nation it is talking about Israel and the second time the same word is used, in the same verse, it is talking about the gentile nations.

The English word 'nation' is used over 145 times in 127 verses in the Bible. Can you find one time that the word translated as 'nation' in the OT is not the Hebrew word 'goy/gowy?

The only reason that I point this out is because of what was said in another post. If someone is trying to figure out if something like 'a multitude of nations' is referring to gentile nations or if it's referring to the nations/tribes of Israel, they cannot do that by looking at the word nations in the Hebrew.

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"Galilee of the Gentiles" is from Matthew 4:15. Gentile is Goy in Hebrew. There is a different word for nation in modern Hebrew. This may not be the same as ancient Hebrew or Aramaic. Typically a Gentile is someone who is not Jewish, but some expect Jews may have called themselves Gentiles even though such is not the case in modern Israel.

Matthew 25 (NASB)...The Jesus' Judgment of the NATIONS
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 All the NATIONS will be gathered before Him;

the nations...GREEK 1484...ethnos...
I.a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together
A.a company, troop, swarm
II.a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus (SOCIETY)
A.the human family
III.a tribe, nation, people group
IV.in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles
V.Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

So, I asked the Lord to guide me to what He wants me to see in the Bible today. I found in Chapter 11 of Deuteronomy Verses 26 -32. I'm trying to discern what He's trying to tell me. I play a online game called Grepolis which comes to mind. It's setting is Mythological in nature, in Ancient Greece. There's 6 pagan gods in it, but I don't worship those gods. Do you think that a game like this could offend/anger the Lord? I'm asking for help in discerning.

dqhall said:

"Galilee of the Gentiles" is from Matthew 4:15. Gentile is Goy in Hebrew. There is a different word for nation in modern Hebrew. This may not be the same as ancient Hebrew or Aramaic. Typically a Gentile is someone who is not Jewish, but some expect Jews may have called themselves Gentiles even though such is not the case in modern Israel.

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Yes, modern Hebrew is somewhat different than old Hebrew that the OT was written in and modern Greek is somewhat different than the Koine Greek that the NT was written in.
The word 'Gentile' is from Latin and does not come from either Hebrew or Greek.

But that isn't either here nor there, what is important is that we know that in the OT we don't assume that when 'goy/gowy/goyim, is used that is talking about 'gentiles'.

Is this verse talking about only gentiles? nation/s = H1471 goy
Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Hank77 said:

Yes, modern Hebrew is somewhat different than old Hebrew that the OT was written in and modern Greek is somewhat different than the Koine Greek that the NT was written in.
The word 'Gentile' is from Latin and does not come from either Hebrew or Greek.

But that isn't either here nor there, what is important is that we know that in the OT we don't assume that when 'goy/gowy/goyim, is used that is talking about 'gentiles'.

Is this verse talking about only gentiles? nation/s = H1471 goy
Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

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John 4
22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

That's why the nations are blessed in him. The theocracy of Israel brought forward Jesus, who is the saviour of all.

OldWiseGuy said:

Cited from Isaiah and prophetic of Jesus' ministry to the remnants of the northern kingdom ("I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel") still living in the region of Galilee; ancient territory of Zebulun and Naphtali.

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Actually, the people in Galilee and Samaria, Northern Israel, were mainly Samaritans; a people descended from Gentiles resettled there by Assyria. But there were Jews and the Disciples are Jewish.
But the main body of the ten Northern tribes, taken to the Caucasus region, had by then migrated into Europe and are now the Western nations. Proved by how they have fulfilled the prophesies about them of Jacob and Moses.
That the mission of Jesus to those 'lost sheep' was successful, is shown by the Christianization of the Western nations.

People who object to and reject these truths, are those who have been fooled by the 'rapture to heaven' theory, where as they think the false Israel, those who call themselves Jews, but are not, Revelation 2:9, is the only Israel of God. A very bad mistake, that means they fail to see how God does intend to bless His righteous, faithful Christian people; the true Israelites of God.

dougangel said:

John 4
22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

That's why the nations are blessed in him. The theocracy of Israel brought forward Jesus, who is the saviour of all.

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Yes....

Servant232 said:

LXX

Genesis 48:19 - καὶ οὐκ ἠθέλησεν ἀλλὰ εἶπεν οἶδα τέκνον οἶδα καὶ οὗτος ἔσται εἰς λαόν καὶ οὗτος ὑψωθήσεται ἀλλὰ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ ὁ νεώτερος μείζων αὐτοῦ ἔσται καὶ τὸ σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἔσται εἰς πλῆθος ἐθνῶν

Ethnon - nation / people - nationalities

G: 4128. pléthos - a great number - From pléthó (to be full)


Received Text

Romans 11:25 Οὐ γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν ἀδελφοί τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο ἵνα μὴ ἦτεπαρ᾽ ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γέγονεν ἄχρις οὗτὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ

G: 4138: pléróma -- fullness

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No offense intended, and this post is more to all than just to you...

It will take more than a mere two words, let alone, two passages to prove your assertion that those two passages refer to one another.

What you are asserting is a Doctrine.

Meaning, a word or two, or tense or two, or what have you, is not going to cut it; is not going to prove this doctrine you are asserting.

For any doctrine is based on far much more than any one word, phrase, and or passage, or two.

Case in point, how the Lord proved Who He was to the Twelve - even AFTER His Resurrection...

Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

A Doctrine: per the Spirit speaking through the father of John the Baptist in Luke 1:67-75; those two men had rightly believed Jesus would be delivering Israel from bondage under that foreign power that Israel had then under: the Mighty Roman Empire (Dan. 2:44; Dan. 12:1; Mark 1: 15, etc).

But they had gotten its timing wrong.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Note: Acts 3 relates His plans to return unto them towards His fulfillment of those Words related in Luke 1 - in accordance with their Law and the Prophets.

But anyway - the result of all those passages He rightly laid out to them in Luke 24?

24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Another example...

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

And an example of what we are bound to run smack into, thus why, we'd best lay out more than some Greek tense or two...

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

On other words...

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that...

1 - they received the word with all readiness of mind, and...

2 - searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12...

3 - Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

That three-fold principle being what we are each likely to run accross, in some.

Nevertheless, Rom. 14: 5 towards you - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

Danoh said:

No offense intended, and this post is more to all than just to you...

It will take more than a mere two words, let alone, two passages to prove your assertion that those two passages refer to one another.

What you are asserting is a Doctrine.

Meaning, a word or two, or tense or two, or what have you, is not going to cut it; is not going to prove this doctrine you are asserting.

For any doctrine is based on far much more than any one word, phrase, and or passage, or two.

Case in point, how the Lord proved Who He was to the Twelve - even AFTER His Resurrection...

Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

A Doctrine: per the Spirit speaking through the father of John the Baptist in Luke 1:67-75; those two men had rightly believed Jesus would be delivering Israel from bondage under that foreign power that Israel had then under: the Mighty Roman Empire (Dan. 2:44; Dan. 12:1; Mark 1: 15, etc).

But they had gotten its timing wrong.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Note: Acts 3 relates His plans to return unto them towards His fulfillment of those Words related in Luke 1 - in accordance with their Law and the Prophets.

But anyway - the result of all those passages He rightly laid out to them in Luke 24?

24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Another example...

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

And an example of what we are bound to run smack into, thus why, we'd best lay out more than some Greek tense or two...

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

On other words...

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that...

1 - they received the word with all readiness of mind, and...

2 - searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12...

3 - Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

That three-fold principle being what we are each likely to run accross, in some.

Nevertheless, Rom. 14: 5 towards you - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

Click to expand...

Where are your Witnesses that it means anything else?

Show me where YHWH has made a covenant with a "gentile" non-Israel 'church'

The New Covenant is with The House of Israel and the House of Judah

You need to take a walk with YESHUA, buy from Him eye salve, that He might open your eyes to understand.

Jacob blessed Ephraim and said that he would become Melo ha Goyim Genesis 48:19


Melo - Fulness
Ha - The
Goyim - People Nations

In Romans 11:25 Paul says that blindness in part has happened to Israel (House of Judah) until the fulness of the Ethnos (People Nations) (Ephraim).

The Ethnos that Paul is referencing are the same Goyim that Jacob said Ephraim would become.

Ezekiel 37:19
Say unto them, Thus saith Adonai YHWH; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine Hand.

20
And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21
And say unto them, Thus saith the Adonai YHWH; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the GOYIM, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22
And I will make them one GOY in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one King shall be King to them all: and they shall be no more two GOYIM, neither shall they be divided into Two Kingdoms any more at all.


The Fulness of the Ethnos are Ephraim, The Northern Kingdom, Those that were not His People, Children of the Living Elohim.

LXX

Genesis 48:19 - καὶ οὐκ ἠθέλησεν ἀλλὰ εἶπεν οἶδα τέκνον οἶδα καὶ οὗτος ἔσται εἰς λαόν καὶ οὗτος ὑψωθήσεται ἀλλὰ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ ὁ νεώτερος μείζων αὐτοῦ ἔσται καὶ τὸ σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἔσται εἰς πλῆθος ἐθνῶν

Ethnon - nation / people - nationalities

G: 4128. pléthos - a great number - From pléthó (to be full)


Received Text

Romans 11:25 Οὐ γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν ἀδελφοί τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο ἵνα μὴ ἦτεπαρ᾽ ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γέγονεν ἄχρις οὗτὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ

G: 4138: pléróma -- fullness

Jacob divided his family into Two bands!

OldWiseGuy said:

The point in regard to the OP is that the "woman of Samaria" was a descendant of the house of Israel, the northern kingdom still living in the region, and still worshipped God on Mt. Gerizim as did her ancestors during the time of the Assyrian captivity.

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John 4:8-30 never says she was an Israelite. She was a Samaritan, a mongrel people despised by the Jews.
All the House of Israel, excepting a few who joined with Judah, were gone by 718 BC, when Sargon 2 came down with the Assyrian army and defeated Egypt in the battle of Raphia.
Sargon then established the Satrapy [Assyrian province] of Samaria, totally replacing the Israelite population with Gentiles.