Was the Last Supper a Seder?

With the first Passover the Israelites were responsible for butchering their own lamb/kid and sharing it with another family or two that didn't have a lamb. If as some think they butchered the lambs in the afternoon in Egypt it would have raised the suspicions of the Egyptians as to what was going on? Besides, the Egyptians were hard task masters so the idea that the Egyptians would let the Israelites take the afternoon off to kill hundreds, if not thousands of lambs from noon to just before sunset is a stretch to say the least.

The mistake many are making (not you) is that they don't realize the Sanhedrin and Pharisees had changed the timeline of the slaughtering of the lambs occurring at the beginning of Aviv/Nisan 14 to afternoon at the end of Aviv/Nisan 14.

Exception being by the time of Yeshua the Pharisees and Sanhedrin had well established their own tradition for the sake of profit and convenience. That's why some say that both Passover and Unleavened began with the eating of the roasted lambs into the beginning of Aviv/Nisan 15. So, the timeline confusion is that the actual slaughtering of the lambs took place on the 14th but the actual "Feast" began on the 15th.

However, the Sanhedrin and Pharisees had moved the timeline of the slaughtering of the lambs ahead approx 17-18 hours so the "Feast" of Passover and Unleavened bread both began on the 15th. That's what both Mark and Luke are referring to: Mark 14:1, Luke 22:1. And yet the "last supper" by Yeshua honored the original timeline in the Torah of "between the evenings" aka twilight from sunset until no daylight was still visible in the sky at the beginning of Aviv/Nisan 14 ("between the evenings" being approx 90 minutes according to Ibn Ezra).

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

The Lamb (Yeshua) was secured when He rode in and was accepted by the people. He then was questioned for 4 days and was found to be un-blemished. If you want to believe it was an actual Pesakh seder when many things point to it NOT being one, that is up to you

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I have given many things that prove it was.

'The Passover' is the Lamb or kid, the things to be eaten with it were bitter herbs and unleavened bread. You can't have a Passover or Passover meal without a Passover.

And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, “Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?” Mark

On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?"" Matthew

Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. Luke

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Sorry, not convinced. Also, the Essenes did not sacrifice. You cant have a Pesakh seder without lamb and the lambs were slain the next day at the same time as Yeshua was killed. It was not a Pesakh seder...

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We can agree to disagree.

There were various sects of Essenes is seems, those holding strict to Torah and living there in Jerusalem would be there as the commandment says to be and to keep the Passover.

pat34lee said:

50 Reasons the Last Supper Was Not the Passover
http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_50-Reasons.pdf

Bread was a major deciding factor for me.
Not just one verse, but many, including the
prophecy in Psalms 41:9 which specifies
lechem, or raised bread.

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And here's some parallels that show that is was.

(1) The Last Supper took place in Jerusalem
(2) in a room made available to pilgrims for that purpose,
(3) it was held during the night.
(4) Yeshua celebrated that meal with his “family” of disciples;
(5) while they ate, they reclined.
(6) This meal was eaten in a state of ritual purity.
(7) Bread was broken during the meal and not just at the beginning.
(8) Wine was consumed and
(9) this wine was red.
(10) There were last-minute preparations for the meal, after which
(11) alms were given,
(12) a hymn was sung.
(13) Yeshua and his disciples then remained in Jerusalem.
(14) Yeshua discussed the symbolic significance of the meal, just as Jews do during the Passover Seder.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Jn 13:1
Now BEFORE the festival of the Passover, Jesus, being aware that His hour came that He may be proceeding out of this world to the Father, loving His own who are in the world, He loves them to the consummation.

(CLV) Jn 13:2
And at the coming of dinner, the Adversary already having cast into the heart of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, that he may be giving Him up,

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John is different. The synoptic gospels have the crucifixion taking place on Passover. John has the crucifixion taking place on the day of preparation. They contradict.

Lulav said:

And here's some parallels that show that is was.

(1) The Last Supper took place in Jerusalem
(2) in a room made available to pilgrims for that purpose,
(3) it was held during the night.
(4) Yeshua celebrated that meal with his “family” of disciples;
(5) while they ate, they reclined.
(6) This meal was eaten in a state of ritual purity.
(7) Bread was broken during the meal and not just at the beginning.
(8) Wine was consumed and
(9) this wine was red.
(10) There were last-minute preparations for the meal, after which
(11) alms were given,
(12) a hymn was sung.
(13) Yeshua and his disciples then remained in Jerusalem.
(14) Yeshua discussed the symbolic significance of the meal, just as Jews do during the Passover Seder.

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You have a problem being that in the original Greek, Yeshua took "arton" and broke it while the word "azymon" is used in the same chapter of Luke to describe the day of unleavened...IF it were a seder, UNLEAVENED bread could only be used...the writer obviously knew the difference. ALL the things you used above to try and prove it was a seder I can also use to prove it was a Pesakh Seudah.

Lulav said:

And here's some parallels that show that is was.

(1) The Last Supper took place in Jerusalem
(2) in a room made available to pilgrims for that purpose,
(3) it was held during the night.
(4) Yeshua celebrated that meal with his “family” of disciples;
(5) while they ate, they reclined.
(6) This meal was eaten in a state of ritual purity.
(7) Bread was broken during the meal and not just at the beginning.
(8) Wine was consumed and
(9) this wine was red.
(10) There were last-minute preparations for the meal, after which
(11) alms were given,
(12) a hymn was sung.
(13) Yeshua and his disciples then remained in Jerusalem.
(14) Yeshua discussed the symbolic significance of the meal, just as Jews do during the Passover Seder.

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Starting by removing those that just prove meal, and nothing more.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

6 is not a Passover requirement. Neither are most of the others.

Did you read the PDF file?

John is referring to the Day of Preparation as the Day the lambs were killed in the afternoon of the 14th in preparation for the "Feast" on the 15th. The actual "Feast" of both the roasted lamb and unleavened bread occurred on the 15th. The "Last Supper" was what some refer to as a pre-seder honoring the original [twilight] timeline of Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5 and Numbers 9:3.

This so-called contradiction is partially because of two different interpretations of: beyn ha'arbayim (between the [two] evenings) by the Jews during the time of Yeshua. One interpretation being approximately 90 minutes of twilight between sunset and nightfall at the beginning of the 14th. The other interpretation is approximately six hours of afternoon daylight at the end of the 14th. The vast majority of Jews loyal to the Sanhedrin had the lambs killed during the afternoon of the 14th, and ate the Passover meal later at the start of the 15th.

Thus, until the destruction of the Second Temple, the Jews loyal to the traditions of the Sanhedrin held to the afternoon scenario (Matthew 23:3). Their lambs were killed on the afternoon of the 14th, with the eating of the Passover meal later in the night, at the start of the 15th. Thus, why the actual "Feast" of Unleavened bread and Pesach (Passover Festival) both occurred on the 15th.


If you believe the first evening begins at noon then you might believe that the Egyptians gave the Israelites the afternoon off so they could go home and start slaying their lambs.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

The Passover in killed during the day on the 14th, the meal was on the 14th (the evening before, yet still the 14th). It was a Pesakh Seudah...

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As I recall wasn't there a sect of Jews who did the seder before the normally observed seder?

Open Heart said:

John is different. The synoptic gospels have the crucifixion taking place on Passover. John has the crucifixion taking place on the day of preparation. They contradict.

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I've read that some believe john was using roman tme.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

You have a problem being that in the original Greek, Yeshua took "arton" and broke it while the word "azymon" is used in the same chapter of Luke to describe the day of unleavened...IF it were a seder, UNLEAVENED bread could only be used...the writer obviously knew the difference. ALL the things you used above to try and prove it was a seder I can also use to prove it was a Pesakh Seudah.

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The problem I see is that the Greek is using that word for a multitude of things including a loaf of bread, and a whole meal.

It's also used in Luke 6:4 when speaking of the shew bread which was on the table in the taberncle and temple. This bread was also unleavened.

Lulav said:

I've read that some believe john was using roman tme.

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Or was it GMT (Greek Maybe Time)?

AbbaLove said:

​

John is referring to the Day of Preparation as the Day the lambs were killed in the afternoon of the 14th in preparation for the "Feast" on the 15th. The actual "Feast" of both the roasted lamb and unleavened bread occurred on the 15th. The "Last Supper" was what some refer to as a pre-seder honoring the original [twilight] timeline of Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5 and Numbers 9:3.

This so-called contradiction is partially because of two different interpretations of: beyn ha'arbayim (between the [two] evenings) by the Jews during the time of Yeshua. One interpretation being approximately 90 minutes of twilight between sunset and nightfall at the beginning of the 14th. The other interpretation is approximately six hours of afternoon daylight at the end of the 14th. The vast majority of Jews loyal to the Sanhedrin had the lambs killed during the afternoon of the 14th, and ate the Passover meal later at the start of the 15th.

Thus, until the destruction of the Second Temple, the Jews loyal to the traditions of the Sanhedrin held to the afternoon scenario (Matthew 23:3). Their lambs were killed on the afternoon of the 14th, with the eating of the Passover meal later in the night, at the start of the 15th. Thus, why the actual "Feast" of Unleavened bread and Pesach (Passover Festival) both occurred on the 15th.

Exodus 12:6 (JPS Tanakh 1985)
You shall keep watch over it until the fourteenth day of this month; and all the assembled congregation of the Israelites shall slaughter it at twilight.​

If you believe the first evening begins at noon then you might believe that the Egyptians gave the Israelites the afternoon off so they could go home and start slaying their lambs.

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What day is the first of unleavened?? You need to eat the lamb with unleavened bread... Exodus 12:8 and Leviticus 23:6

Lulav said:

The problem I see is that the Greek is using that word for a multitude of things including a loaf of bread, and a whole meal.

It's also used in Luke 6:4 when speaking of the shew bread which was on the table in the taberncle and temple. This bread was also unleavened.

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While Arton "could" be unleavened, in context within the same chapter where it specifically also says the word for unleavened, that is very doubtful. Also, in all the other Gospels anywhere it says loaves or bread it means leavened...

The lambs are killed on Aviv 14, but the actual "feast" takes place on Aviv 15. And so, Matthew 26:2, Mark 14:1, Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:1, refer to the actual feast of the roasted lamb and unleavened bread (matzah) first eaten on the same day Aviv 15. (Leviticus 23:5-6).


Preparation Day (Aviv 14) was preparing for the Feast of Unleavened Bread beginning on Aviv 15.

Lulav said:

Please see my post here.

True that there were many lambs to be slain but each was for a family of a certain size so that it could be eaten before midnight. It was actually the man of the house or family that would slaughter the lamb with the priests catching the blood and dashing it at the foot of the altar.

Now a careful read of the requirements shows that All Israel must slay the lamb, not the priests. So at some time the Pharisees must have come up with a 'tradition' that they had to be involved and that the slaying had to be at the temple. However the 'place' that G-d choose to place his name was all of Jerusalem.

When these instructions were given there was no temple nor any plans for one, that didn't come until Davids time and wasn't realized until his son Solomon's time. I personally don't think there was supposed to be a Temple but only the Miskan, the Tabernacle.

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Since a lamb was to be slain for a family, then maybe when the lamb was to be slain ("prepare the Passover") was a judgment call by the Head of the house?

AbbaLove said:

​

The lambs are killed on Aviv 14, but the actual "feast" takes place on Aviv 15. And so, Matthew 26:2, Mark 14:1, Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:1, refer to the actual feast of the roasted lamb and unleavened bread (matzah) first eaten on the same day Aviv 15. (Leviticus 23:5-6).

John 19:31 (CJB)
It was Preparation Day, and the Judeans did not want the bodies to remain on the stake on Shabbat, since it was an especially important Shabbat.​

Preparation Day (Aviv 14) was preparing for the Feast of Unleavened Bread beginning on Aviv 15.

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My point was the 15th (after sunset on the 14th) is the 1st of unleavened. Lambs killed between the evenings (on the 14th) and roasted would be eaten just in time WITH Matzah THEN. IF the lambs were killed on the beginning of the 14th (after sunset on the 13th) as some claim here, you would need to keep the lamb until the next evening to eat it with matzah and that is a no-no according to Torah. Yeshua dying ON the 14th when the lambs were killed and buried before sunset fulfills Scripture...

I was thinking of this last night. As I tried to indicate elsewhere in this thread, Yeshua was proclaimed by John to be the Lamb of G-d, also in Revelation the Lamb is seen and mentioned many times.

Could perhaps Yeshua on that night when he said over the bread

'This is my body which is broken for you, do THIS in remembrance of Me.'

Be showing them how, from then forward, to keep the Passover, knowing the Temple was soon to be destroyed?

leaven was a tangible thing that could be understood in how sin in us behaves. Although the tiny yeast cells cannot be seen in the air with the naked eye, its' there, all around us. Once it finds a host (warm, wet and dark) it starts multiplying. I think Yeshua alluded to this when he spoke about the demons coming back sevenfold.

So the elements of the seder were used to tell a story. Part of the Torah ordinances about this were that there was to be a telling. This all the disciples had known since very young children. So now using these same elements, Yeshua was teaching the fulfillment of this ritual.

'This is my body' ---not the lamb but the unleavened bread no represented the Passover lamb----as he told his disciples while walking in the temple, it would be destroyed, and if so then there would be no proper place to sacrifice them.

'Which is broken' --many say this is against the Psalms which speaks of bones not being broken---I don't agree with that and if you realize that the body can be broken without any bones being broken and know what torture Yeshua went through, not just leading up to the cross and being nailed to it but mostly from the weight of all the sins of the world, that would be the ultimate broken body.

'for you'--- For them and all that came before and after

'do THIS ' --This, was the Seder, the telling of how G-d rescued them from slavery (equal to sin) and brought them out with an outstretched arm. Because of when this happened they had to eat unleavened bread, which I believe is what he was holding in his hands.

'in remembrance' -----part of the Seder, the telling was to remember on the anniversary of the Passover the great things G-d had done for them and this was the culmination of it.

'of Me' -------Yeshua now I believe was showing that He is replacing the Passover lamb and it is with the Matzoh that is to represent him.

AbbaLove said:

​

With the first Passover the Israelites were responsible for butchering their own lamb/kid and sharing it with another family or two that didn't have a lamb. If as some think they butchered the lambs in the afternoon in Egypt it would have raised the suspicions of the Egyptians as to what was going on? Besides, the Egyptians were hard task masters so the idea that the Egyptians would let the Israelites take the afternoon off to kill hundreds, if not thousands of lambs from noon to just before sunset is a stretch to say the least.

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I would have to disagree with that for the most part.

Yes the sharing of the lamb was a stipulation, some have said that 10 was the minimum per lamb.

The lambs were slain at the going down of the sun, all at the same time, each head of the household doing so and then gathering the blood and painting the doorways. Then they set about roasting it. I'm sure if G-d commanded that this be done he made sure the Egyptians were preoccupied so as not to interfere.

As far as the Egyptians letting them do it or not, I'd say that was the least of their worries. At the time they had just gone through 9 plagues. They also lived in Goshen which was not within the Egyptians occupied areas.

Yes, "all at the same time" wouldn't take several hours for the Israelites to kill their lambs. One and one-half hours of evening twilight would suffice. During twilight there is still enough light for killing the lambs and "painting the doorways". Besides our eyes adjust quite well to nighttime. It's not like they couldn't see what their doing. With this "twilight" timeline any final roasting and eating of the lambs took place on Aviv 15.

As far as we know this was the first time that the Israelites killed so many lambs in mass at one time. This more likely occurred just after (not before) sunset as well as the brushing of some blood on the doorways. However, by the 2nd Temple it was a different scenario. More time was now needed for the convenience of the Priests and their Levite helpers to kill the lambs brought to the Temple. So the Pharisees had previously to establish their tradition(law) of killing the lambs during the afternoon hours as one and one-half hours didn't allow them enough time.

Yeshua was being obedient to the Pharisees afternoon tradition (Isaiah 53:7) even though He knew that the lambs killed during the first Passover in Egypt were slain between the two evenings of twi-light.