OSAS? What do you believe?

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AndOne

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Interesting to me that someone pointed to Galations as a basis for "conditional salvation" - when the whole issue with the church of Galatia was that they were practicing a "works based" faith - which according to Paul was incorrect.
 
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Yesterday at 09:46 AM Thunderchild said this in Post #36
While at the same time, neglecting to note that the ones who cannot be snatched are those who are continuing in love for God. It is very easy to demonstrate that while those who cease from loving God are still (nominally) in his hands, there is not any way to demonstrate that they cannot or will not be snatched.


There are many metaphors for salvation, one of them being "in God's hand AS WELL AS in Christ's hand" so there are at least two Divine hands around the believer (Jn.10:27-30). But we are also His sheep, we are also bone of his bones and flesh of His flesh, we are also His children, His dear children, His dearly beloved children, His body, His Bride, His Church, His saints, His kings and priests, etc.

I find it amusing that we can go on and on about OSAS without even stopping to think: "Is salvation merely a condition?" or is is not God Himself, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, dwelling within the believer while at the same time the believer being permanently and eternally grafted into the True Vine [Christ] (Jn.15:1) and into His body (1 Cor.12:13)? If God is dwelling within the believer, is it because the believer has been a "good little boy" and loved God sincerely, or is it because he has simply believed God, just like Abraham, and it was imputed to Him for God's righteousness? (enitre 4th chapter of Romans, esp. vv 21-22).

The real problem today is that hardly anyone speaks about or even understands the great and glorious and liberating truth about imputed righteousness.  Ask the next Christian you meet to tell you all about imputed righteousness and they will probably meet you with a blank stare. Yet this is the foundational truth about our salvation.The moment we believed God, it was reckoned/imputed/counted to us for righteousness. Why?

Because that is the only way to give us the gift of eternal life, which is the gift of God Himself [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]. Since He is His own gift to us, nothing we do or don't do can change what God has ALREADY DONE, through the finished work of Christ on the cross. The price for the gift was paid once. God does not ask for any more prices to be paid. Therefor all talk about OSAS is blasphemous:

"Hereby know we that we dwell in Him [God], and He in us, because He hath GIVEN us of His [Holy] Spirit.... Whosoever shall CONFESS that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in Him, and he in God. And we have known and BELIEVED the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God, and God in him" (1 John 4:13-6).



 
 
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settergren

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If a Christian can lose their salvation, then where do they fit in the following passage where Paul describes God's plan of salvation...

Romans 8

<I>More Than Conquerors </I>

<SUP>28</SUP>And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,<SUP>[1]</SUP> who<SUP>[2]</SUP> have been called according to his purpose. <SUP>29</SUP>For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. <SUP>30</SUP>And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

It can be seen that those whom are called according to His purpose are those who love Him. They are one in the same. We also know that we love because He first loved us.

1 John 4

<SUP>19</SUP>We love because he first loved us.

So here we have people who love God. These people were foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified. This pertains to all men who love God, whom Christ loved first. In verse 30 we can see a chain of events that are blatantly connected by God's power. Each link in the chain includes everyone from the previous link. In otherwords, everyone that is foreknown is predestined and so on. As is evident in the passage, each person is brough all the way to glorification. It wouldn't make sense for some to be predestined, and some of those called, and some of those justified, and some of those glorified. That makes no sense, and it is also not written that way. It is a 100% automatic chain of events that will take place for those whom God has foreloved.

Now, if someone can lose their salvation, where do they fit in this passage. Certainly if they were truly saved they were one of those whom God foreknew. Where they not also predestined and called. If they were truly saved they must have been justified. However, this person lost their salvation so then they couldn't have possibly been glorified. But it is eveident that those who love God WILL be glorified. Wouldn't this then mean that everyone who gets saved will without a doubt be glorified??? How can a glorifed person not be saved???

God Bless
 
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settergren

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Well, the verse I gave (Romans 8:30)&nbsp;relates to the plan of salvation through Jesus Christ in the new testement, not the OT plan of salvation through the obedience to the law.

Romans 11:7-8

What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;eyes so that they could not see
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and ears so that they could not hear,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to this very day."

The jews are a special case. You can see that there are two groups of people, the jews and the elect. The jews wanted salvation, but they wanted it through improper means (works, not faith in Christ). The elect are those in Romans 8:30. The elect are those called accpording to His purpose. His purpose for the elect is salvation through belief in Christ. However, it doesn't mean that there aren't jews who belong to the elect because we know that there are christian jews. Paul was a jew, but he was one of the elect. The point is, is that Israel was God's choosen nation in OT time but they weren't collectively choosen for salvation through Christ as those in Romans 8:30 were. It is obvious that God was the cause of Israel's unbelief. God didn't chose Israel as a nation for salvation through Christ so as a "whole" they don't apply to Romans 8:30.
 
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I agree that the system has changed, but God never changes.

His dealings with man is much more lenient in the temporal sense, but in eternity He is still the same God as He was in the begining.

He has allowed His son to become the sacrifice for our sins.
Things really are quite similar to the OT law in many ways.
A reading of Hebrews and then Romans will show the similarities.

We are no longer under the Tutor of the law, but does that mean that the rules have changed?

I understand what you are saying, as I understand the elect and predestination as well as I can.

But in looking at the following verse and many others, I come to the conclusion that maybe the concepts of ''elect'' and ''predestination'' arent understood perfectly by us.


"Well! For unbelief they were broken off. And you stand by faith. Do not be highminded, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear that it may be He will not spare you either. "
(Romans 11:20-21 LITV)


To tell you the truth, it boggles my mind.
I have an issue with overanalysing everything and this topic has really blown me away.
I have scared my wife senseless showing her things about this as her father isnt a christian.
Its almost not worth discussing as long as YOU believe that Jesus paid the Price for you and you are living a life that is pleasing to our God
 
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There are many scriptures that are often cited by those who hold to the OSAS doctrine; many of them have been quoted here. These are usaully passages that stress the Christian's assurance like: the Christain's "full assurance of understanding" (Col 2:2); his "full assurance of hope" (Heb 6:11); his "full assurance of faith" (Heb 10:22); his assured status as adopted son and heir (Rom 8:15-17; Gal 4:6); and the ability to "know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).&nbsp; They also cite those texts that emphasize God's own faithfulness in keeping his promises to believers and protecting them from their enemies: "No one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand" (John 10:27-29); "He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus" (Phil 1:6); "The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11:29); "I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day" (2 Tim 1:12); we are "protected by the power of God" (1 Pet 1:5); and nothing "will be able to separate us from the love of God" (Rom 8:31-39).

Beyond a doubt, these verses teach important truths about assurance.&nbsp; They show that&nbsp;all Christians should have the assurance of salvation.&nbsp; They show that it is God's desire and God's plan to maintain us in the state and process of salvation until the end.&nbsp; They show that God can and will protect us from all outside forces&nbsp;that seek to draw us away from Him.&nbsp; But none of these verses specifically affirm that every saved child of God will unconditionally remain in his saved state until he dies.&nbsp; All of the above texts allow for the possibility that the believer himself may exercise his free will and voluntarily give up his salvation.&nbsp; God himself will never leave us and will never initiate the severing of our saved relationship with him.&nbsp; But He also will not prevent us from leaving him if that is our choice.&nbsp; The truth of the matter is that the texts that support the doctrine of assurance of salvation do not teach unconditional perseverance.&nbsp; They teach assurance, but it is an assurance that is consistent with our continuing to meet the conditions upon which salvation was given to us in the first place.&nbsp; In fact, the overwhelming testimony of the New Testament is that both initial salvation and remaining in the saved state are CONDITIONAL.&nbsp; These conditions are, of course, gracious ones and not legalistic ones.&nbsp;As Christians, we remain justified by faith, not&nbsp;by works of law.

&nbsp;
 
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settergren

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Disciple2003,

Here are some verses that I feel support OSAS.

Jerimiah 32:40 - And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me.

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

&nbsp;

You say we have assurance, but then you go to say that we can screw things up ourselves and stop believing. So, if that's possible then we really aren't assured of anything.

I think it is a horrible thought to think that those whom the BLOOD OF CHRIST has bought, those whom the Holy Spirit has regenerated, those whom the SOVEREIGN GOD has predestined to glory can fall from the grace of God.

It may appear that someone has stopped believing in Christ, but then we never know the heart. We can't make these assumptions about man's ability to unsave themselves just by seeing someone who appears to have lost "their" salvation. We can only go by what the word tells us.

You say, "But He also will not prevent us from leaving him if that is our choice."

If He does this, and if He knows this will happen (which&nbsp;IF it could happen he would know full well about it beforehand), then how and why would he foreknow us, predestine us, call us, justify us, and GLORIFY us (Romans 8:29-30).

You also say, "assurance of salvation do not teach unconditional perseverance"

Doesn't assurance&nbsp;imply unconditionality. If something is conidtional then it is by no means assured. If something is assured then there are no conditions upon which that thing can exist. The only condition of salvation is entirely in the Lords sovereign choice of his people before the foudations of the world. For those who have been Choosen by Him, they are no conditions. They will not fall from Christ, His love doesn't let us go as the scripture says.

John 6:40 - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

If a Christian is lost and goes to hell, then didn't Christ lose that individual? If that individual was bought by the blood of Christ and is His child and that individual falls away and perishes, doesn't that show that Christ failed to "lose nothing"? The scripture is clear, we won't be lost, we will be raised up at the last day!

&nbsp;

God Bless,

settergren
 
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My wife ''assures'' me she will never leave me.

What might happen if I break the marriage ''covenant'' I made with her.
would she still be bound to me? ( and yes, I know she is only human)
Jesus says no.

There is a great comparison in our relationship to Our Lord with marriage.

It makes me wonder that if Jesus said the marriage covenent could be broken for adultery, that if we are guity of a spiritual adultery, then He could ''put us away''.


Obviously I would be making the choice to break my covenant with her, it would be no accident.
likewise I am sure falling away would not be an accidental thing.
You couldn't just lose your salvation like your car keys.

There is just too much scripture pointing to the possibility of a man falling away (or other terms) to just blow it off as unimportant.
 
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Here are some verses that I feel support OSAS.
Jerimiah 32:40 - And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me.
If we understand the entire context of this verse we can possibly get a different idea.&nbsp; The idea behind the words 'so that' can be understood also as 'in order to' or 'for this purpose'.&nbsp; In other words, God put His fear in their hearts for the purpose of giving them strength to not depart from Him.&nbsp; This by no means implies that they absolutley could not depart from Him.&nbsp; Especially because we know that the children of Israel DID depart from God.&nbsp;
&nbsp;
John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Again,&nbsp;Jesus says clearly that those who come to Him, He will not cast out.&nbsp; This does not rule out the possibility of some who come to Him choosing to walk away.&nbsp;
&nbsp;
You say we have assurance, but then you go to say that we can screw things up ourselves and stop believing. So, if that's possible then we really aren't assured of anything.
We are assured beyond a doubt that God will never initiate Himself the departing from His people.&nbsp; He will remain with them for as long as they remain with Him.&nbsp; As long as we remain in Christ, God will not only never leave us, but He will also protect us so that no outside forces could possibly take us from Him.&nbsp; There are far too many verses that indicate the conditionality of our salvation to be ignored.&nbsp; One obvious one is Col 1:21-23. Verse 21 reads&nbsp;"And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds", this describes the Colossians' (and every Christian's) former state.&nbsp; Verse 22: "Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach", This relates to our present state.&nbsp; We are "now reconciled", i.e. no longer aliens and enemies, but in a saved state because of our faith in the gospel.&nbsp; Verse 23: "If indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made of minister."&nbsp; Whether or not we reach that final salvation is clearly conditioned upon whether we continue to believe in Jesus Christ.&nbsp; Verse 23 states this condition without question.&nbsp; "If indeed you continue in the faith..."&nbsp; The unavoidable conclusion is that we can choose NOT to continue in the faith.&nbsp; This would certainly not be the result of some lapse in God's protection, nor the triumph of any enemies power; it would simply be the individual's exercise of God's free will.&nbsp;
&nbsp;
I think it is a horrible thought to think that those whom the BLOOD OF CHRIST has bought, those whom the Holy Spirit has regenerated, those whom the SOVEREIGN GOD has predestined to glory can fall from the grace of God.
It is a horrible thought!&nbsp; That is why we are cautioned all through the New Testament to remain in the faith.&nbsp; Please remember that even for those who fall from God's grace, it is NEVER the fault of God or a lack of His power or ability to keep us.&nbsp; It is solely because of our God given free will and ability to choose.&nbsp; However, if you accept the five points of Calvinism then this is really the issue anyway.&nbsp; Total depravity says that we are so depraved that we cannot make that choice, God must make it for us.&nbsp; But this is also unbiblical.
It may appear that someone has stopped believing in Christ, but then we never know the heart. We can't make these assumptions about man's ability to unsave themselves just by seeing someone who appears to have lost "their" salvation. We can only go by what the word tells us.
You couldn't be more right.&nbsp; There are many who 'appear' to have lost their salvation, but ultimately God will judge whether or not that is so.&nbsp; We can only go by what the word tells us which is that the possibility exists.&nbsp; If we suspect that someone is falling from grace or even just not walking in a manner that would be pleasing to God, then we have a responsibility as fellow brothers to restore him to the faith with love.&nbsp;
&nbsp;
You also say, "assurance of salvation do not teach unconditional perseverance"
Doesn't assurance imply unconditionality. If something is conidtional then it is by no means assured. If something is assured then there are no conditions upon which that thing can exist. The only condition of salvation is entirely in the Lords sovereign choice of his people before the foudations of the world. For those who have been Choosen by Him, they are no conditions. They will not fall from Christ, His love doesn't let us go as the scripture says.

This all depends upon your understanding of assurance.&nbsp; Every aspect of salvation has two parts, God's and man's.&nbsp; Man must respond to God's offer of salvation or, in other words, man must accept God's gift of salvation.&nbsp; Assurance in our salvation from God's perspective is unconditional.&nbsp; God is not restricted.&nbsp; He will do His part without fail in every case.&nbsp; However, to receive salvation, there are certain criteria placed upon us.&nbsp; This in no way takes away from God's sovereignty, as God has the sovereign ability to allow His creation to have free will.&nbsp; It also does not take away from God's grace because salvation is dependant upon His grace.&nbsp; He did not have to offer it to us at all.&nbsp; Yet He did because of His amazing love for us.&nbsp; The fact that we have conditions placed upon us does nothing to God's grace.&nbsp; Even under His pronounced conditions, we are still receiving something we will never deserve.&nbsp; That is God's grace.&nbsp;
&nbsp;
If a Christian is lost and goes to hell, then didn't Christ lose that individual? If that individual was bought by the blood of Christ and is His child and that individual falls away and perishes, doesn't that show that Christ failed to "lose nothing"? The scripture is clear, we won't be lost, we will be raised up at the last day!

No, Christ did not lose that individual.&nbsp; They chose to walk away from the truth.&nbsp; Jesus Himself taught us this.&nbsp; Look at John 15:1-6.&nbsp; Here Jesus is discussing those who are already in a saved state; they are branches that are "in Me" (v. 2), fully attached to the life-giving vine.&nbsp; But Jesus exhorts these branches to "abide in Me" (v. 4), clearly implying that whether we abide or remain in the vine is our own responsibility.&nbsp; Verse 6 clearly shows that it is possible for one to choose NOT to abide in Christ: "If anyone does not abide in Me..."&nbsp; If anyone makes this choice, two things follow.&nbsp; First, the one who does not abide in Christ (i.e. ceases to believe) "is thrown away as a branch and dries up".&nbsp; The expression "thrown away" is eblethe exo, literally, "thrown outside".&nbsp; He was at one time inside-inside the church, inside the love of God, inside the circle of grace; but now he is outside, excluded form grace, as the result of his own initiative, not God's.&nbsp; Second, those who choose to stop believing and who are thus excluded from grace are finally condemned to hell; "They gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."&nbsp; This is not equivalent to 1 Cor 3:15 where one's works are subjected to the test of fire, affecting only the believer's reward.&nbsp; Here the excluded branches themselves-the fallen ones- are burned.&nbsp; Christ will never fail.&nbsp; His finished work on the cross will always be enough for the salvation of all who believe and remain in Him.&nbsp; Those who do not will answer for themselves.&nbsp; It will not be the fault of Christ.
 
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settergren

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So man must maintain salvation. In this case the assurance of salvation depends on man's ability to stay in Christ. This is a works based maitinence program. Clearly we are saved by grace alone, not works, in order that there is no boasting. If we are saved and have to make sure we maintain a "certain degree" of faith then how can we not boast in our ability to keep this faith!

You never explained Romans 8:28-30. That passage clearly shows that the elect will be brought to glory!
 
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Just a quick insert here. You notice in the verses that gives us our assurance, 2nd Peter 1:9-11, I read those verses as we are working to make sure that he has called us to salvation. (As in he really predestined us and etc.) Once again, his election and sovereignty comes first. Another verse that solidifies that even more is Ephesians 1:4. =D Even more proof of that is Revelations 20:11-15. The book of life, I interpret that as those were predestined, and all who wasn't predestined was thrown into the lake of fire, which I presumed to be hell. (Feel free to come up with another interpretation.) Notice how it doesn't say anything about judgement of those who are in the book of life, it only says that those in the book of life was spared.

Therefore I would even dare to say that:
1) you can't lose your salvation, since well:
a)He chose you before the beginning of time
b)Whether you go to hell or not, He doesn't even look at your works, all those not going to hell is already written down in the book of life.
2) your assurance has absolutely nothing to with His election. You can be all the sure that you are called to heaven and still not go there. (if your not predestined or in the book of life)

Note: This post is not meant to demean faith. Faith definately has a huge part in salvation. Ephesians 1:13 ephasizes faith! =D

Your brother through his grace,
 
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Those on the rock are the ones who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy. And these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
(Luke 8:13 MKJV)



Therefore, having left the discourse of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to full growth, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the baptisms, of doctrine, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do, if God permits. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.
(Hebrews 6:1-6 MKJV)



And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation (as our beloved brother Paul also has written to you according to the wisdom given to him as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction). Therefore, beloved, knowing beforehand, beware lest being led away with the error of the lawless, you fall from your own steadfastness.
(2 Peter 3:15-17 MKJV)



You will say then, The branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest He also may not spare you either!
(Romans 11:19-21 MKJV)
 
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=D I've been through those verses before. Oh boy have I been through those verses.

There are also these verses too which help you out. 1st John 2:18, Hebrews 10:28-39, Galations 5:4 and there are many more out there.

This is a point of great contention within christians for many many many years. There great tension in scripture on this point.

How are we to relieve this stress in the bible? I think it definately comes down to the question of how does your faith relate to salvation vs how election relates to salvation. I strictly hold that the 2 points are definately compliments and there is no contradiction in scripture.
 
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So man must maintain salvation. In this case the assurance of salvation depends on man's ability to stay in Christ. This is a works based maitinence program. Clearly we are saved by grace alone, not works, in order that there is no boasting. If we are saved and have to make sure we maintain a "certain degree" of faith then how can we not boast in our ability to keep this faith!

All I can say is that the scriptures are clear.&nbsp; Jesus tells us that we are to abide or remain in Him.&nbsp; How can He command this if we are not to do it?&nbsp; You claim that we have absolutely no part in the salvation process.&nbsp; So every man who winds up in hell will not be responsible.&nbsp; God is responsible&nbsp;because He&nbsp;put him there just because He felt like it.&nbsp; Is that the God of the bible.&nbsp; Certainly not the one that I serve.&nbsp; God desires ALL men to be saved; to come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).&nbsp; How can God DESIRE this and yet know that He already determined some to go to hell before the foundation of the world?&nbsp; Not to mention the fact that by your very statements, you have no assurance of salvation.&nbsp; You and other Calvinists will spend all of their lives never knowing if they are one of the "elect" or not!&nbsp; You could serve God faithfully for many years and still be cast into hell because you were not one of the "elect".&nbsp; That is not what Jesus died for.

You never explained Romans 8:28-30. That passage clearly shows that the elect will be brought to glory!

Okay, lets' discuss this.&nbsp; According to Calvinism, God's process started something like this:&nbsp;Prior to creation, God, in one all-encompassing decree predestined in detail everything that will ever take place within the created universe.&nbsp; From this vanatge point, God in His foreknowledge looks out upon the entire human race in its state of total depravity.&nbsp; Then from among this total mass of sinful humanity, even before it is created, he chooses which individuals He wants to become believers and be a part of His heavenly family.&nbsp; These 'elect' ones He determines to irresistably and eternally save; the rest He determines to leave in their sin and exclude from heaven.

The crucial question is this: On what basis does God choose whom He will save?&nbsp; What criteria does He use for selecting one rather than another?&nbsp; The answer is that we have no idea whatsoever.&nbsp; The reasons for His choices (if He has any) are known only to God Himself, and He has determined not to reveal them to us.&nbsp; Thus from the standpoint of human knowledge, the election is totally unconditional.&nbsp; God's decision has nothing to do with anyone meeting certain announced conditions, such as faith and repentance.

Romans 8:28-29 certainly deals with the concept of God predestinating&nbsp;specific individuals to salvation.&nbsp; But is it in the way that Calvinism describes?&nbsp; Not at all.&nbsp; Calvinism teaches not just a predestination to salvation, but a predestination to faith itself.&nbsp; God determines which unbelievers will become believers.&nbsp; The biblical teaching is that certain individuals are predestined to salvation.&nbsp; Which individuals?&nbsp; The ones whom God foreknows will become believers of their own free choice.&nbsp; These are the ones whose names He records in the Lamb's book of life and who are predestined to glory.&nbsp; In short, rather than certain God-selected unbelievers being predestined to become believers, all foreknown believers are predestined to enjoy the benefits of salvation.&nbsp; This is the only sense in which some are predestined to be saved.&nbsp; That is, God predestines believers to go to heaven, just as He predestines unbelievers to go to hell.&nbsp; But He does not predestine anyone to become and remain a believer, or to remain an unbeliever.&nbsp; This is a choice made by each individual, a choice that is foreknown by God.

&nbsp;
 
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Just a quick insert here. You notice in the verses that gives us our assurance, 2nd Peter 1:9-11, I read those verses as we are working to make sure that he has called us to salvation. (As in he really predestined us and etc.) Once again, his election and sovereignty comes first.

HUH?&nbsp; How did you arrive at that conclusion?&nbsp; Working to make sure that He has called us to salvation?&nbsp; How do we do that?&nbsp; According to Calvinism, you will never know until your death if you were called to salvation, so there is no work here that could ever bring you assurance.&nbsp; Look at those verses in the context they were written.&nbsp; Peter gave them a list of qualities that Christians should be striving for.&nbsp; Verse 8 says, "For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."&nbsp; These are things that we are to work at; qualities we should strive for.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; So we can be useful and fruitful to our Lord.&nbsp; Verse 9 tells us that if we lack these qualities we are blind and have forgotten our purification from our former sins.&nbsp; Verse 10 says to be diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you.&nbsp; How is this possible if you have no measure to determine if you were called (Calvinism)?&nbsp; You can only know this by having the assurance of salvation that comes from faith in Jesus Christ.&nbsp; But that faith must be joined by works (James 2:17).&nbsp; Peter says that if we practice the things he just mentioned that we will never stumble.&nbsp; Meaning that if we&nbsp;choose not to practice them we will stumble.&nbsp; Verse 11, "for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."&nbsp; In what way?&nbsp; The way he just described; by practicing the things he listed earlier.&nbsp; Is this salvation by works?&nbsp; Not at all.&nbsp; Peter spoke earlier about our becoming partakers of the divine nature by the promises of God (verse 4).&nbsp; The qualities he lists are ones that would come only from a faith in Jesus Christ.&nbsp;&nbsp;In fact the list starts with faith (verse 5).&nbsp; These are things that result from faith but they are not automatic.&nbsp; We are to strive for them and maintain them as part of out Christian life.

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Another verse that solidifies that even more is Ephesians 1:4.

Another verse taken out of context.&nbsp; The verse reads, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him."&nbsp; Paul says 'He chose us'.&nbsp; Who is the 'us'.&nbsp; Obviously he meant himself and the Christians&nbsp;he was writing to.&nbsp; How did Paul know for sure that all those who 'claimed' to be Christians at Ephesus were actually chosen according to Calvinism.&nbsp; What does the verse say they were chosen for?&nbsp; Not salvation.&nbsp; "That we should be holy and blameless before Him".&nbsp; Who should be holy and blameless?&nbsp; Christians; or in other words, all who have made the choice to accept Jesus Christ as Lord.

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2) your assurance has absolutely nothing to with His election. You can be all the sure that you are called to heaven and still not go there. (if your not predestined or in the book of life)

So obviously, you are saying that there is no way to know if you are truly saved.&nbsp; It's strictly guess work.&nbsp; Assurance of salvation is a myth.&nbsp; Then the truth of the matter is we can never know who is really a brother and who isn't.&nbsp; You may say you are but there is a good chance you're not.&nbsp; If that is true, why go to church, why pray, why study the scriptures, why evangelize?&nbsp; Especially evangelize!&nbsp; What sense does it make to spread the gospel if God has already chosen those He will save.&nbsp; If they are chosen, they will be saved whether or not you and I ever say a word.&nbsp; I suppose if anyone is doing those things it's because God is MAKING them do it by His sovereignty.

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Note: This post is not meant to demean faith. Faith definately has a huge part in salvation. Ephesians 1:13 ephasizes faith!

This makes your post even more confusing.&nbsp; Even if faith has a part, according to Calvinism, it's not your faith anyway.&nbsp; It was given to you by God and you had no say in it whatsoever.&nbsp; So we are just basically robots who are completely controlled by God and have no choices at all.&nbsp; I'm sorry but this doctrine makes no sense to me at all.&nbsp; It's totally unbiblical and quite honestly, it makes me nervous.&nbsp; How many people are being mislead by this kind of teaching?
 
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As you can see, I am not calvinist. =D

I am not saying that everyone who professed to be christians in ephesues was saved. I am not even saying that everyone who says their christians today are saved. I think Paul is talking to the saints. Ephsians 1:1 "to the saints who are at Ephesus" If you read other of Pauls epistles, he writes to those who are saved, not to the professing christians. Just as Romans was directed only to the saints, those who are truely saved!

For the verses in 2nd Peter, I read the NASB. Yes, he is saying those are qualities of a christian. But if you continue reading, verse 10 "therefore brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you" I believe that him saying "His calling" and his "choosing you" does relate to salvation. I'm not advocating salvation by works, Galatians 5:4 clearly refutes that.

Are you sure that the assurance of salvation doesn't exist? If it truely didn't exist, why does it say in Hebrews 6:11 and 10:22 that we should have assurance til the end? I believe that our assurance is found in 2nd Peter 1:10. =D

A small note here, I try my best to be conservative in my theology. If scripture doesn't say it, I won't say it. Therefore, my verses, I try to know the background behind each verse, in what mindset is the author writing and especially who the author is writing to. In the case here, in ephesians, it says clearly in 1:1 that he was writing only to those who are saved.

About what I said about faith, I take Ephesians 1 as a dumping ground from Romans. Paul summarizes the whole of salvation in Ephesians 1, it is near impossible to understand without a clear understanding of romans though. It is definate that his election has a part in your salvation 1:5, but then again, faith is also a part of your salvation, 1:13. How are you to relieve the tension here? This is the crux of the armenian/calvinist debate. This has been argued for centuries, going back to the early church fathers, 2 that come to head are Augustine and Pelagius. I have my own explanation to this controversy, but I have assured that it will be different from every other interpretation that is out there. I am not calvinist nor am I armenian. I am closer to calvinist though. Please look through the verses in its full context and get back to me on what you think on the topic.&nbsp; If you want more verses and explanations, read my other posts...I love debating this topic.
 
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Yesterday at 03:44 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #54&nbsp; &nbsp;For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:1-6 MKJV)


Follower of Christ: To use this passage as proof that believers can "fall away" and lose their salvation is "wrongly dividing" the Word of Truth. This passage is speaking of those "professing" Christians who do not actually "possess" the Holy Spirit, but claim they are Christians.&nbsp;They &nbsp;have "tasted" but not "fully ingested and absorbed".&nbsp; Where it says made "partakers of the Holy Spirit", remember the Lord said that many will come and say they have prophesied in His name and cast out demons in His name. Perhaps they have, without being genuinely saved. He'll respond "Depart ... I never KNEW you".&nbsp; What this passage in Hebrews does teach is that those who have had every reason to get saved and do not respond to the voice of the Holy Spirit, but turn back through unbelief, can and will be shut out of the Kingdom. Even if this interpretation is not accepted, it does not change the nature of salvation.

The only way to cut through the fog and confusion is to ask ourselves one very simple question: "Does Scripture teach that eternal or everlasting life is A GIFT OF GOD to the sinner who repents, believes and receives Christ, or is it not?"&nbsp; If this gift is ETERNAL how can it ever end? If ths gift is through faith, how can anything affect it? If it is entirely because of God's grace, how can the believer lose it? Scripture says, The GIFTS AND CALLING OF GOD ARE WITHOUT REPENTANCE [a change of heart and mind on the part of God].&nbsp; Then how dare we say they are not?
 
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I am not saying that everyone who professed to be christians in ephesues was saved. I am not even saying that everyone who says their christians today are saved. I think Paul is talking to the saints. Ephsians 1:1 "to the saints who are at Ephesus" If you read other of Pauls epistles, he writes to those who are saved, not to the professing christians. Just as Romans was directed only to the saints, those who are truely saved!

I agree.&nbsp; Paul is speaking to the saints.&nbsp; What I meant was that this verse does not give support to Calvinism nor does it speak of salvation.&nbsp; It is speaking to those who are saved; who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord.&nbsp; It is not saying that certain people were chosen to be saved, but instead it is saying that those who believe in Christ have been chosen to be holy and blameless before Him.&nbsp;

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Are you sure that the assurance of salvation doesn't exist? If it truely didn't exist, why does it say in Hebrews 6:11 and 10:22 that we should have assurance til the end? I believe that our assurance is found in 2nd Peter 1:10. =D

You must have misunderstood me.&nbsp; I absolutely believe that we have assurance of salvation.&nbsp; My point was that Calvinism does not allow for assurance because there is no way for you to know if you are one of the 'elect'.&nbsp; But 2 Peter 1:9-11 does not speak to unconditional assurance.&nbsp; It shows us that we must maintain our faith and the things that go with it if we are to have assurance of salvation.

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