Does our loving God send people to hell?

RDKirk

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THAT is really the $64,000 question, isn't it? Do all men reject God, or are they rejecting something of which they know nothing about. The darkness of our lives means that we do not really know God. We don't see Him as He is, in our darkness, we guess about what He is, and even when we hear the Gospel, there are many things that work against our coming to Him.

Paul says flatly and explicitly that God reveals Himself in creation (see Psalms 19) so that everyone has enough information to acknowledge His existence and essential virtue, and that nobody has an excuse.

I believe that is how Job knew God, because God speaks of Himself to Job in terms of His natural creation--great creatures of land and sea, great weather phenomena, the constellations in the heavens--instead of His promises and supernatural works.

This is what Paul was referring to in his speech to pagans in Athens. There was actually a doctrine of the ancient Greeks who studied the cyclical perfection of the heavens and determined that such precision could only be the act of a higher single god that created and controlled the universe. Butt because that god was so perfect, no man could know him. Paul points out to them that the "Unknown God" of that doctrine (which Paul knew, because he quoted one of its proponents) was, indeed, God.

Scripture does indicate to us that God takes the extent of our knowledge under consideration in His judgment, but every adult has seen enough of Him in creation to acknowledge at least His existence and essential virtue.
 
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Der Alte

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Begin quote
THAT is really the $64,000 question, isn't it?
Ÿ—–● Do all men reject God, or are they rejecting something of which they know nothing about.
The darkness of our lives means that we do not really know God. We don't see Him as He is, in our darkness, we guess about what He is, and even when we hear the Gospel, there are many things that work against our coming to Him.
Ÿ—–● So the real question is this....when a soul sees God in all His love for them and glorious Being, will they still reject Him? We simply do not know, do we?
Ÿ—–● If here on earth, men reject God, they are perhaps rejecting not God, but a caricature of who and what He is.
Ÿ—–● But in the next life, seeing Him fully, will we be capable of repentance and change?
That is the question.
Do you have any scripture which supports the points I have indicated?
 
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AmusingMargaret

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Inspired by this thread: How can a God of love send people to hell?
and my recent Bible studies, I wanted to open up discussion about this.

There's a whole alternative framework (that's not ever been deemed as heretical by the church) that seems to fit in much better with passages like John 3:16.

If we "dare to hope all men will be saved" (as the author Hans Urs von Balthasar writes) and if we believe that God laid down His life for us....not to "save us" from an angry Father...but to demonstrate His love for us.....it all fits together much better.

Instead of looking at the end.....maybe it'd be better to look at the beginning and start from there?


From Fr Richard Rohr: The incarnation of God and the redemption of the world could never be a mere mop-up exercise in response to human sinfulness, but the proactive work of God from the very beginning. We were "chosen in Christ before the world was made," as the hymn in Ephesians puts it (1:4). Our sin could not possibly be the motive for the divine incarnation, but only perfect love and divine self-revelation! For Scotus, God never merely reacts, but always supremely and freely acts, and always acts totally out of love. Scotus was very Trinitarian.

The best way I can summarize how Scotus tried to change the old notion of retributive justice is this: Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity (it did not need changing)! Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God. God in Jesus moved people beyond the counting, weighing, and punishing model, that the ego prefers, to the utterly new world that Jesus offered, where God's abundance has made any economy of merit, sacrifice, reparation, or atonement both unhelpful and unnecessary. Jesus undid "once and for all" (Hebrews 7:27; 9:12; 10:10) all notions of human and animal sacrifice and replaced them with his new economy of grace, which is the very heart of the gospel revolution. Jesus was meant to be a game changer for the human psyche and for religion itself. When we begin negatively, or focused on the problem, we never get out of the hamster wheel.~Richard Rohr's Meditation: Love, Not Atonement

Can unrighteous humanity stand before the righteous God without the blood of Jesus? I believe those who didn't accept salvation will throw themselves into the abyss that is Hell.
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="Der Alter I appreciate all these unsupported opinions. How many semesters of Greek did you say you had? Of course one might make this argument if he ignores everything else that Jesus said. And one might make false arguments about fire e.g. by taking other verses about fire ignoring their contexts. Every reference to fire in the Bible is not referring to the same thing

Again how many semesters of Koine Greek do you have? This is an oft repeated false argument which I will address in a separate post.

I don't have to take Greek to be able to read the works of Greek scholars who state that aionios does not mean "eternal."

Wrong! "Sheol" is a Hebrew not Greek word. Perhaps you should get your facts straight before arguing your assumptions/presuppositions.The Jews before and during the time of jesus beleived in a place of eternal fiery torment for the unrighteous and they called it both Ge hinnom and sheol.


Yes, you are correct. I wasn't thinking. I am so used to arguing the Greek of the NT that I wasn't paying close attention.

If you are going to try to argue pagan Greek influence I suggest you have some credible, verifiable, historical evidence. I have already shown, in this thread, from such evidence that the Jews before and during the time of Jesus had a belief in hell and Jesus did not correct or criticize the Jews but taught essentially the same thing.


Not according to this article from the Jewish Encyclopedia online.

It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp.
ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, "toward the setting of the sun"); hence it is designated as
V11p282003.jpg
(Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or
V11p282004.jpg
(Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as "opening her mouth" (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (ib. xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with "farthest corners" (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V. "uttermost parts of the pit"), one beneath the other (see Jew. Encyc. v. 217, s. v.
Eschatology). Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27), yet they are mere shadows ("rephaim"; Isa. xiv. 9, xxvi. 14; Ps. lxxxviii. 5, A. V. "a man that hath no strength"). The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling (Job xiv. 13; Eccl. ix. 5). Silence reigns supreme; and oblivion is the lot of them that enter therein (Ps. lxxxviii. 13, xciv. 17; Eccl. ix. 10). Hence it is known also as "Dumah," the abode of silence (Ps. vi. 6, xxx. 10, xciv. 17, cxv. 17); and there God is not praised (ib.cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 15). Still, on certain extraordinary occasions the dwellers in Sheol are credited with the gift of making known their feelings of rejoicing at the downfall of the enemy (Isa. xiv. 9, 10). Sleep is their usual lot (Jer. li. 39; Isa. xxvi. 14; Job xiv. 12). Sheol is a horrible, dreary, dark, disorderly land (Job x. 21, 22); yet it is the appointed house for all the living (ib. xxx. 23). Return from Sheol is not expected (II Sam. xii. 23; Job vii. 9, 10; x. 21; xiv. 7 et seq.; xvi. 22; Ecclus. [Sirach] xxxviii. 21); it is described as man's eternal house (Eccl. xii. 5). It is "dust" (Ps. xxx. 10; hence in the Shemoneh 'Esreh, in benediction No. ii., the dead are described as "sleepers in the dust").

Hmmmmmmmmm....yet Christ went down into Sheol and preached to the spirits of the dead. (1 Peter 3: 19)

Just repeating your assumptions/presuppositions without reading or addressing what I said. Purely wild speculation that this has any reference to the destruction of the Temple 40 years later. It is referring to a punishment worse than death. Just saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Does not prove me wrong and you right. Show me some evidence not unsupported speculation!

Not speculation. The Gospel of Matthew is filled with warnings to the Jews of the coming destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus speaking to the crowd of Jews listening to Him, many of which would soon be putting to death Stephen and many other martyrs for the faith. He is warning the assembled crowd that those who persecute and hurt His little ones will suffer a terrible fate for their wicked deeds. When do you suppose that came upon the Jews who martyred the first century Christians if not at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70?
 
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Light of the East

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THAT is really the $64,000 question, isn't it?
Ÿ—–● Do all men reject God, or are they rejecting something of which they know nothing about.
The darkness of our lives means that we do not really know God. We don't see Him as He is, in our darkness, we guess about what He is, and even when we hear the Gospel, there are many things that work against our coming to Him.
Ÿ—–● So the real question is this....when a soul sees God in all His love for them and glorious Being, will they still reject Him? We simply do not know, do we?
Ÿ—–● If here on earth, men reject God, they are perhaps rejecting not God, but a caricature of who and what He is.
Ÿ—–● But in the next life, seeing Him fully, will we be capable of repentance and change?
That is the question.

Do you have any scripture which supports the points I have indicated?

No, I don't. But I am not a sola scriptura person. These are philosophical questions which I have every right to ask. Knowing God is much more than the "Letter of the Law" so to speak. What we do know is:

1. God wills that all be saved (1 Tim. 2:4)

2. Christ has redeemed all mankind through Christ (Romans 5: 18-19)

3. Pagans can be saved without even hearing the Gospel (Romans 2: 13-16)

4. Therefore, in reference to # 3, God is love and wills the salvation of all mankind.

5. If this is true, which Scripture says it is, then why put a time limit on when a man or woman can come to Christ?
 
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Light of the East

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General question.....

Of what harm would it be to you, to the cosmos, or to anything....if God indeed does eventually save all? Would you rejoice to see that all eventually came to Him, or would you be like the Older Brother of the Prodigal and throw a hissy fit?

Why is the thought of apocatastasis so abhorrent to so many here?
 
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The Times

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When did Jesus say the wailing and gnashing of teeth will end? It has been 2000 years and the scriptures still say nothing about it ending.

I concur!

I would like to compliment you on your efforts brother in Christ and provide the following dissertation, for others to read and to understand.....

It seems at the end of the day, the authority of Jesus is being questioned and contended with and whenever Jesus says something opposite to the Universal salvation narrative, they revert to God is love and God is merciful and his performance and image depends on all being saved, through the temporal progressive fires of purgatory, so that none are lost.

Let us look at the consequences of such an anti-thesis salvation doctrine....

2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
11
And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:2, 11-14)

The only reason this person came to the wedding is that he believed that it was his right to do so, because he was one of those who were called to come. Notice the King addresses him as friend, which further emphasises the point that he was a believer. However, what was disclosed is, that he did NOT have the Holy Spirit life long, sanctified wedding garments.

What did the King do?

He told his servants, who are those who are chosen to come and who have their life long sanctified wedding garments, to bind him hand and foot and to take him out away from the King's and his Son's presence and to cast him out, into outer darkness.

The word to "cast out" in the Greek is.......

Strong' Greek: 1544 ----- ekballo

I throw, cast, put out, banish, to draw out with force, to tear out.

Jesus said those words......so please think about it and what implications it entails.

God the Father as the Almighty King, makes a very strong point, when he requests that this once believer, who thought it was his right to be there, to be removed from His and His Son's presence in the most forceful way possible, whilst not even given him the chance to respond back (he was speechless). He was bound hand and foot, in the most shockingly compromised and embarrassing moment of his life, whereby the King gave clear instructions for his banishment.

The question as to whether this forcefull banishment is temporal? is an oxymoron question to say the least, that it dares to question the very character of the Father and what Jesus said about the Father.

Please put on your thinking caps......

When God the Father issues this drastic measure to those who are called to faith, then really his character is on the line, if so, that he happens to change his mind down the track, in supporting a temporal punishment. This would further imply that God the Father is fickle and lacks character, in that he ends up changing his mind after that particular drastic measure, which really is a 180 degree change.

You see, people ought to really slap themselves and think for a moment, that the very instruction to banish that individual, might I add once believer, into outer darkness, is a decision that is a one way ticket for that individual, without any hope of ever returning back into the presence of God. The righteous decision made by God the Father, can not be retracted. The Father can not go back on his decision and therefore there is a state of permanence, that is eternity, which determines the fate for that individual.

To say otherwise, would be in opposition to the trinity, in contention that is, whereby believers today, think that Jesus said this parable for fun or that God the Father can't be that serious, because after all he is love, having infinite mercy right?

Dead Wrong!

God the Father is not merely making an example of this person, for the sake of making a point and putting fear in the hearts of believers, with the intention of going back on his word, a 180 degree shift, by changing his mind and then allowing that individual to once again come back in his presence, after having him forcefully banished. This would portray a vindictive and fickle character, who changes his mind, like humans do in the flip of a dime.

In fact, if God wanted him back in his presence, after a time of separation, then he would have allowed him and given him enough time, to answer for himself and/or at least informed him, that his separation would be temporal. In this case, there was really no need for the forceful measure in evicting him, in the way God the Father is shown to have done.

Off course Jesus provides this parable and follows it by....many are called to the wedding/faith, but only a few are chosen, further highlighting that this parable applies not to just that individual, but to many who thought that it was their right to be there.

Please listen friends, Universal Salvation, temporal punishment, purgatory in the afterlife, are all anti thesis salvation doctrines, that project salvation as a right for all of humanity, contrary to Jesus's words that "many are called, but few are chosen".

Salvation is a Privilege, salvation is NOT A RIGHT!
 
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bugkiller

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Inspired by this thread: How can a God of love send people to hell?
and my recent Bible studies, I wanted to open up discussion about this.

There's a whole alternative framework (that's not ever been deemed as heretical by the church) that seems to fit in much better with passages like John 3:16.

If we "dare to hope all men will be saved" (as the author Hans Urs von Balthasar writes) and if we believe that God laid down His life for us....not to "save us" from an angry Father...but to demonstrate His love for us.....it all fits together much better.

Instead of looking at the end.....maybe it'd be better to look at the beginning and start from there?


From Fr Richard Rohr: The incarnation of God and the redemption of the world could never be a mere mop-up exercise in response to human sinfulness, but the proactive work of God from the very beginning. We were "chosen in Christ before the world was made," as the hymn in Ephesians puts it (1:4). Our sin could not possibly be the motive for the divine incarnation, but only perfect love and divine self-revelation! For Scotus, God never merely reacts, but always supremely and freely acts, and always acts totally out of love. Scotus was very Trinitarian.

The best way I can summarize how Scotus tried to change the old notion of retributive justice is this: Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity (it did not need changing)! Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God. God in Jesus moved people beyond the counting, weighing, and punishing model, that the ego prefers, to the utterly new world that Jesus offered, where God's abundance has made any economy of merit, sacrifice, reparation, or atonement both unhelpful and unnecessary. Jesus undid "once and for all" (Hebrews 7:27; 9:12; 10:10) all notions of human and animal sacrifice and replaced them with his new economy of grace, which is the very heart of the gospel revolution. Jesus was meant to be a game changer for the human psyche and for religion itself. When we begin negatively, or focused on the problem, we never get out of the hamster wheel.~Richard Rohr's Meditation: Love, Not Atonement

Sorry but I do not understand your position.

God created man with a free will knowing full well he would rebel creating a separation for the explicit purpose to show love. No other creature can have this type of relationship with God.

bugkiller
 
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Light of the East

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Please listen friends, Universal Salvation, temporal punishment, purgatory in the afterlife, are all anti thesis salvation doctrines, that project salvation as a right for all of humanity, contrary to Jesus's words that "many are called, but few are chosen".

Salvation is a Privilege, salvation is NOT A RIGHT!

It is not a question of being a "right." It is a question of the very nature and character of the Father. He is described as love. When one "loves," one can choose to love and then choose to hate, choose to act in love and choose to act in hatred.

But when one IS love, then the act of loving is all that one can do. There simply is nothing else.

To create sentient beings, foreknowing that they would fall into sin and then be tortured forever, is not an act of love towards those beings.

To give up on someone because they are either profoundly evil or profoundly rebellious, is not an act of love. The Parable of the Prodigal shows us that the Father's love never gives up.

To create sentient beings capable of suffering, and then, without any merit or demerit on their part whatsoever, choose some to enjoy eternal bliss and the majority to suffer eternal torment, is not the action of a loving Father. It is the action of a psychopath.

If eternal torment is true - IF - then to allow poor, dumb, stupid creatures to be tricked into damning themselves by being subjected to temptation to evil by a completely malevolent spirit is not the actions of a loving Father. To allow heretical opinions to be spoke, if those opinions will deceive multitudes into eternal sorrow and torment, is not the action of a loving Father either.

We are told to love our enemies, to do good to those who hate us so that we can be like our heavenly Father. Therefore, it is right to say that our heavenly Father loves those who hate Him and is passionless. He cannot stop loving for then He would cease to exist because He is love.

I would not be afraid of a Father who I know loves me, even if in His love I must be corrected (chastened) and that chastening lasts a while and is painful. But I would fear a Father who creates me and others just to be tormented (Calvinism) and takes delight in the torment of His creatures (Thomas Aquinas).

I close with this thought regarding the words of St. (in Orthodoxy) Justinian:

"The folks at Classical Christianity posted today a passage from St Justinian’s letter to Patriarch Menas criticizing universal salvation. This is the letter in which the Emperor commanded the patriarch to convene a synod to condemn the teachings of Origen. To it he appended the nine anathemas that were eventually confirmed by the 543 Synod of Constantinople. Here’s a part of the passage:

Will render men slothful, and discourage them from keeping the commandments of God. It will encourage them to depart from the narrow way, leading them by deception into ways that are wide and easy.

Justinian’s criticism implies that fear of damnation is a stronger motivational force for repentance than love and the hope of eternal happiness. Is this true? Perhaps so at the societal level. As emperor, Justinian had to be concerned with the order and unity of the empire. Given the symbiotic union of Church and State that existed in the sixth century, I can understand why Justinian and others might fear the proclamation of universal salvation. But at the level of gospel, we must ask, What kind of faith does the threat of eternal damnation generate? Does faith based on fear save?

Sergius Bulgakov emphatically rejected the employment of infernal terror to induce faith and repentance. Not only can it not attain its salvific goal, but “striking sensitive hearts with horror, paralyzing filial love and the childlike trust in the Heavenly Father, this idea makes Christianity resemble Islam, replacing love with fear. Salvific fear, too, must also have its measure, and not become an attempt to terrorize” (The Bride of the Lamb, p. 484)."
 
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Light of the East

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Sorry but I do not understand your position.

God created man with a free will knowing full well he would rebel creating a separation for the explicit purpose to show love. No other creature can have this type of relationship with God.

bugkiller


Very true. So what if our actions do not determine a fate of either eternal bliss or eternal torment, but rather our actions define the level of reward issued to us in the next life and for all eternity? Has anyone here ever considered that?
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Yes. God is pleased to send unrepentant sinners to hell to the glory of his justice. God hates the wicked and is angry everyday (Psalm 7:11). If sinners will not repent, God will whet his sword (Psalm 7:12).

God justly sends unrepentant sinners to hell.

That is just the way it is yet, man thinks at many times that he has a better, much kinder salvation plan. As he takes many with him to the hot place.
Problem -- self deception.
M-Bob
 
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ClementofA

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General question.....

Of what harm would it be to you, to the cosmos, or to anything....if God indeed does eventually save all? Would you rejoice to see that all eventually came to Him, or would you be like the Older Brother of the Prodigal and throw a hissy fit?

Why is the thought of apocatastasis so abhorrent to so many here?

As Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart said:

""Orthodoxy’s entire dogmatic deposit resides in the canons of the seven ecumenical councils—everything else in Orthodox tradition, be it ever so venerable, beautiful, or spiritually nourishing, can possess at most the authority of accepted custom, licit conjecture, or fruitful practice—and the consensus of the most conscientious and historically literate Orthodox theologians and scholars over the past several decades (Evdokimov, Bulgakov, Clément, Turincev, Ware, Alfeyev, to name a few) is that universalism as such, as a permissible theologoumenon or plausible hope, has never been condemned by the Church. Doctrine is silent on the matter. So live and let live."

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart
 
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Der Alte

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No, I don't. But I am not a sola scriptura person. These are philosophical questions which I have every right to ask. Knowing God is much more than the "Letter of the Law" so to speak. What we do know is:
1. God wills that all be saved (1 Tim. 2:4)
Typical heterodox proof texting a verse from 1 Tim and a few from Rom 2 and jam them together disregarding their individual context and someone can prove almost anything they want to.
2. Christ has redeemed all mankind through Christ (Romans 5: 18-19)
Does Paul tell the Romans that all mankind WILL be saved then tell the Corinthians, Ephesians and Galatians that many people will not inherit the kingdom of God? From what Paul told the Galatians, Ephesians and Corinthian do you think they understood that all mankind would be saved?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

3. Pagans can be saved without even hearing the Gospel (Romans 2: 13-16)
Does your proof text say that pagans can live like the devil and still be saved?

Romans 2:13-16
(13) For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
(14) (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
(15) They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
(16) This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
No it does not. They will be judged on how they lived in accordance with the law although they did not have the law. These verses must be read with Rom 1:18-20 and Psa 19:1-4
Romans 1:18-20
(18) The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
(19) since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
(20) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Psa 19:1-4
(1) For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
(2) Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge.
(3) They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them.
(4) Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
4. Therefore, in reference to # 3, God is love and wills the salvation of all mankind.
Perhaps you should read Jeremiah 13. Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house, all of Israel and Judah. to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

· · ·

This passage very much speaks to the issue of God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.Where does God say that someday by and by He will have pity, will spare, will have mercy?
5. If this is true, which Scripture says it is, then why put a time limit on when a man or woman can come to Christ?
Where does God or Jesus say that everyone will be saved no matter what, even after death? Show me those verses. Not some mushy stuff about God's love. The actual words of God or Jesus.
 
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Der Alte

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I don't have to take Greek to be able to read the works of Greek scholars who state that aionios does not mean "eternal."
Did you even bother to read my post where I quoted 22 verses from the NT which prove the words aion and aionios do in fact mean eternity/eternal. Looks to me like you just ignored them
Not according to this article from the Jewish Encyclopedia online.
I think this discussion is about over. I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud all Jewish sources and you simply ignored them and quoted from something. Which article in the JE is this supposedly from and do you have a link? How does this refute the three sources I quoted?
Hmmmmmmmmm....yet Christ went down into Sheol and preached to the spirits of the dead. (1 Peter 3: 19)
Is that a fact please show me the word sheol, gehenna or hades in that passage?

1 Peter 3:19-20
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.[/quote]
Sheol, gehenna and hades are never called prison and prison is never called sheol, gehenna or hades in the Bible. Noah and his family were not in hell when Jesus preached and they were saved vs. 20. So what was Peter talking about?

Luke 4:18
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
The word translated "captive" literally means "prisoner of war." Jesus' earthly ministry included preaching freedom to prisoners.
Not speculation. The Gospel of Matthew is filled with warnings to the Jews of the coming destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus speaking to the crowd of Jews listening to Him, many of which would soon be putting to death Stephen and many other martyrs for the faith. He is warning the assembled crowd that those who persecute and hurt His little ones will suffer a terrible fate for their wicked deeds. When do you suppose that came upon the Jews who martyred the first century Christians if not at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70?

We were discussing Matt 18:6 where Jesus was talking to His disciples not the Jewish leaders. Neither the destruction of Jerusalem nor the persecution of Christians by the Jews is mentioned anywhere in that chapter. Just grabbing random verses jamming them together to prop up false teaching.
 
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ClementofA

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1. Scripture teaches all those who are reconciled shall be saved in His life (Rom.5:10)

and

2. Scripture also teaches the world is reconciled, (Rom.5:10; 11:15; 2 Cor.5:19)

therefore

3. It follows that the world shall be saved in His life.

True or false?

-


Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Romans 5:10 says that those who have been reconciled "shall be saved by His life".

Therefore it could be argued that if the world has been reconciled to God (cf. 2 Cor.5:19; Rom.11:15; 5:9-11), then likewise the world also "shall be saved by His life".

2 Cor. 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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Did you even bother to read my post where I quoted 22 verses from the NT which prove the words aion and aionios do in fact mean eternity/eternal. Looks to me like you just ignored them

Prove? According to who? Your opinion? Your interpretation?

Your post has already been addressed here:

What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

In fact all your objections to universalism, & everyone else's in this thread, Scripture passages included, have been addressed on this forum.
 
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Tree of Life

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...universalism as such, as a permissible theologoumenon or plausible hope, has never been condemned by the Church. Doctrine is silent on the matter. So live and let live."

This is a very troubling implication of universalism and one evidence that it is a teaching of Satan. The doctrine of universalism implies that repentance in this life is not necessary. Therefore we need not repent. We need not fear judgment. And others need not repent or fear judgment. Repentance is basically optional in this life.

This is a wicked teaching which comes from the mouth of the dragon and is misleading many.
 
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It is not a question of being a "right." It is a question of the very nature and character of the Father. He is described as love.

The question of salvation, is throughout the Holy Writings a contrast between two groups, that is the saved and the damned. The political correctness spirit of this age, that deceives, has blurred this line of separation.

The nature and character of the Father, projected through his Son, is part and parcel of separating the wheat from the tares, good from evil and light from darkness. Love and Justice are both sides of the same sword of God and they work in tandem and never one without the other.

God is Love!
God is also Justice!

Jesus said....Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. (John 10:34)

The political correctness spirit of this world has concocted a spirit of love, unconditional love, without addressing sin, without discerning and separating good from evil, light from dark. This love is authored not by the God of the Bible.

I'm sorry, but a worldly salvation that removes and replaces the central to the Christian faith Cross, as the sin offering, for the preaching of repentance and spiritually eating of the Holy Body and the Holy Blood of Christ Jesus, with a "Love Only" gospel, is an attack on the very nature and character of God. It is an attack on the trinity of God, because as it is written......

26Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. (Hebrews 10:26-29)

The Universal Salvation gospel of "Love Only" salvation, is an attack on the trinity of God and the 1st Century Apostolic Jewish Church in Jerusalem declared such action tramples the Son of God, treats the Blood Covenant as unholy, and insults the Holy Spirit.

It is a flagrant attack on the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and therefore attacks the very nature and character of God.

I plead that people stop doing this and teaching the errors of a Crossless society of Universal Salvation of "Love Only".

When one "loves," one can choose to love and then choose to hate, choose to act in love and choose to act in hatred.

To God and his Christ, rejecting sin, rejecting darkness, rejecting evil is the very act of loving God. On the flip side, if one loves the sins of the world and loves those who wilfully sin against the Holy Covenant, then they become enemies of God and thereby are breaking the first commandment, without even considering what the second commandment implies in context to the first and most important.

Do Not Love This World

15Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. 16For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world. 17And this world is fading away, along with everything that people crave. But anyone who does what pleases God will live forever. (1 John 2:15-17)

And further more.....the second witness says......

4You adulterers! Don’t you realize that friendship with the world makes you an enemy of God? I say it again: If you want to be a friend of the world, you make yourself an enemy of God. (James 4:4)

But when one IS love, then the act of loving is all that one can do. There simply is nothing else.

That worldly love, will kill the person who craves it, because it is a fading worldly love, that places the individual on the opposite side of the fence, as the enemy of God. Scripture clearly states through the mouths of many witnesses, that the person who loves the world unconditionally, is the one who embraces it as it is, in its current spiritual state. Therefore this person rejects the love of the Father and the love of the Father is not in them.

To create sentient beings, foreknowing that they would fall into sin and then be tortured forever, is not an act of love towards those beings.

That was the charge that Satan laid upon God, in the Garden, remember......

2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”

4You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:2-5)

So, Satan used the same argument, that God will not do anything to harm you Eve, he is love, remember (Wink!). Then he places Eve in a false sense of security, ensuring her that God will not kill her, so she ate, because the truth of eating from the tree disclosed knowledge that was held back from them, for their own good offcourse.

Once they had eaten it, another truth was that God did not kill them, he just separated them from him and that did the trick, that is they died. So the deception is like this.....

God is Love.....so he will not send you to hell and kill you, but know that if you continue sinning wilfully, then he is merciful and you will surely not eternally die, but will overtime gain back God's favour, God will find another alternate path, like say purgatory, right?

Right! I really meant WRONG! In strongest sense of Wrong!

So, truth bombs are dropped, just like Satan did to Eve, then towards the end, God doesn't circumvent the Cross of salvation whilst the person lives in the earthly body, but after the person dies, they are thinking safety and temporal torment in say purgatory, then once reality sinks in, just like it did for Adam and Eve, they realise that no one is coming to get them out of that place/state, and I mean no one. So the hope that Eve had, that all is fine and God will forgive them, was met by the harsh reality, that their expulsion from the presence of God, meant certain death.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the Cross of salvation was made available, whilst people who live after the Cross, is available to them freely. Yet after a person dies, that is a totally different story, since God is not going to abdicate his Son's Cross, not in this life time, nor in the life time to come. Those people who die separated from God are therefore eternally damned, never to see life again. This would be the outer darkness of hell, spoken off many times by Jesus.

Since man, from Adam waited for the Cross after Adam was sent to his temporal death, until the Cross of salvation came, then after biological death, there is really no plan as far as salvation that abdicates the Cross, for some fairy tale temporary purging. The doctrine of purgatory is a direct insult to God the Father and it removes the Cross of salvation from the question of salvation, as does the doctrine of Universal Salvation, in the notion that God is Love and will find another way, outside of the Cross of his only begotten Son.

I say to all alternate salvation doctrines, that are outside of the Cross of Christ Jesus......

Rubbish! In the strongest sense of the word rubbish!

To give up on someone because they are either profoundly evil or profoundly rebellious, is not an act of love.

God is not going to give up on his Son's Cross anytime soon. He will give up on the whole world, but not on his Son's Cross, you better believe it friend!

The Parable of the Prodigal shows us that the Father's love never gives up.

The Prodigal son repented of his wilfully sinning against his father and he came back with a broken and contrite heart. He came back as a repentant son, who wanted to be counted like his servants.

Whilst he was away in the sinful pig trough of the world, he decided to come back before he would died, otherwise it would have been too late for him, to gain the father's favour and forgiveness.

After all, the prodigical son said....

17“When he finally came to his senses, he said to himself, ‘At home even the hired servants have food enough to spare, and here I am dying of hunger! 18I will go home to my father and say, “Father, I have sinned against both heaven and you. (Luke 15:17-18)

To create sentient beings capable of suffering, and then, without any merit or demerit on their part whatsoever, choose some to enjoy eternal bliss and the majority to suffer eternal torment, is not the action of a loving Father. It is the action of a psychopath.

Be very careful what you say, because the utterances we make can be used against us all.

I pleadingly would not recommend people calling Jesus a psychopath....

34Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn

“ ‘a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

37“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.38Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.39Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it. (Matthew 10:34-39)

I testify to all, that Jesus Christ is my hero and my role model and to him is all glory, honour and power.

If eternal torment is true - IF - then to allow poor, dumb, stupid creatures to be tricked into damning themselves by being subjected to temptation to evil by a completely malevolent spirit is not the actions of a loving Father.

That was Satan's argumen in the Garden, which placed Eve, under a false sense of security, unbeknown to her, her treatory and fate that eventually resulted after being separated from God.

To allow heretical opinions to be spoke, if those opinions will deceive multitudes into eternal sorrow and torment, is not the action of a loving Father either.

It is the other way around friend. Satan is the deceiver who deceives people into a false sense of security, like peace and safety and love for all, then comes the boom! boom! boom!

We are told to love our enemies, to do good to those who hate us so that we can be like our heavenly Father.

No, this is completely out of context and completely in error. Jesus is not instructing to do good onto enemies of God, who are of the world. Jesus is not instructing to commune with enemies, nor to break bread with eenemies, nor to associate with enemies.

Loving an enemy, within the context of situation and context of culture, that the phrase was delivered to, does not imply any of the above.

In fact, let us read it in context to the Jewish culture and situation, who believed an eye for an eye, within the Old Covenant pretext to deliver Mosaic Law judgment retribution, right there and then, like stoning.

Eye for Eye

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

The moral behind the teachings of Jesus of loving your enemies, is to not take things into your own hands and to not retailiate or to take vengeance, for it is God who will execute judgement. Resisting an evil person, doesn't mean loving him, it means do not retaliate by returning him an upper cut to the cheek. Jesus teaches to walk away from evil and the enemies of the Cross and to not confront them, so things do not escalate. Pretty wise, wouldn't you say friend?

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Context of culture and context of situation is what is needed to properly understand what Jesus is saying.

Therefore, it is right to say that our heavenly Father loves those who hate Him and is passionless. He cannot stop loving for then He would cease to exist because He is love.

That is a logical fallacy.

Your faulty premise......

The Heavenly Father loves those who hate Him and is passionless.

Leading to your faulty conclusion......

He would cease to exist, unless He loves unconditionally.

So acccording to you, God's existence is determined upon external factors, that are solely tied to his Creation. So that once God created man, then he became unconditionally bound to love man, regardless of the intrinsic qualities which point to free will and relationship. So that a symbiotic compulsion is warranted, that compels God to unconditionally love and thereby he is now bound by his own creation, right?

A prisoner of his own doing (creation), right?

This is the Shekinah Glory that you are glorifying, right?

If person A unconditionally loves another person B, regardless of what Person B does to person A, this would be damaging to righteousness and justice and these two will never prevail, because the relationship is not mutual between both parties. It would be a credulous person who is led to believe that God could be portrayed or considered as such.

If humans did this, it would be called stalking and fatal attraction, whereby party A existence and purpose is dependant on the other party B, even though party B wants nothing to do with party A.

I would not be afraid of a Father who I know loves me, even if in His love I must be corrected (chastened) and that chastening lasts a while and is painful.

That is good.

But I would fear a Father who creates me and others just to be tormented (Calvinism) and takes delight in the torment of His creatures (Thomas Aquinas).

You present a false taxonomy. Please care to revise.

Justinian’s criticism implies that fear of damnation is a stronger motivational force for repentance than love and the hope of eternal happiness. Is this true?

I am not a psychologist.

What kind of faith does the threat of eternal damnation generate? Does faith based on fear save?

Apparently the fear spoken of biblically is actually born out of intrinsic and sincere love. I don't know what the problem is that you present.

Salvific fear, too, must also have its measure, and not become an attempt to terrorize”

Salvific fear you say? That would be for the determined enemies of God, not to be confused with Godly fear spoken of by the many witnesses of scripture.
 
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