Was the Last Supper a Seder?

Yeshua HaDerekh

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What is your proposal of where this had taken place and who was the 'certain man'?

It could have been anywhere and anyone. Yeshua Himself may have set it up with the man...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Yes, it is presumed. Yeshua said that John did not drink or eat like he did but that doesn't mean he was a Nazorite. He could have been referring to John being of the Essenes which by their monastic lifestyle would fit more closely than that he was a Nazorite.

John was a Nazirite for sure from birth, the angel basically said so.... Luke 1:15
 
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Lulav

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For those who like to deal with the facts of the matter, to understand if the 'last supper' was an actual Passover Seder we need to understand and agree to certain things.

1. That Yeshua was sinless, therefore he would have kept Torah which includes the instructions on how to keep the Passover.
2. That what he did would have been to the letter and not what was Tradition at the time. He was clear on how the Pharisees choose tradition over Torah and he was adamant about that not being the right way.
3. The Statistics--If we are to go by what was being done and what should have been done we will find ourselves in an entanglement that is never ending, thus proving out why this subject comes up every year in this forum.

So we need to take into account that Yeshua was keeping the Passover as it was to be kept, not how it was being kept by the 'establishment'.

The reconciliation between what is written in the gospels is to acknowledge that some parts of the account are based on what was truly correct in keep in with Torah and what was being kept by Tradition by those ruling over the people. Once we realize that it becomes easier to say if the Last Supper was a Seder.

Now based on that I would say it's easy now to see that the 'last supper'
was a Seder. Let's see if Yeshua kept it according to Torah.

  1. It is to be done each year in remembrance of the freedom from Egypt.
  2. It was to be done in Jerusalem.
  3. All men were to come to Jerusalem to keep it before the L-RD
  4. The lamb was to be slaughtered at even (as the sun goes down)
  5. It was to be eaten with bitter herbs and unleavened bread
  6. One lamb per family or group

1. In order to be sinless Yeshua would have to keep the Passover that year so he was without blemish up until the very last.
2. He came to Jerusalem very publicly so he would have many witnesses he was there (riding on a colt)
3. He was keeping this commandment even though he knew what awaited him.
4. This information is missing but Yeshua told his disciples to go and prepare the Passover which included the lamb.
5. Now most compare the translation of 'sop' to be like a gravy to dip bread in, but I propose that this was something similar to the maror we have today. A dish of chopped up bitter herbs, could be something like the chopped horseradish we use today. They didn't use forks or spoons back then, they actually used the bread to scoop up things. This is still done in many parts of the Middle East today. So I propose that when Yeshua spoke of his betrayal and said that ", "He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me" was speaking of Judas. The bitter herbs represented on the Seder plate the bitterness that the enslavement of sin gives us so it was a very good reference to the bitter herbs and Judas, so this part of the Passover we see he kept.
6.The group was the twelve with Yeshua.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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But the Torah says that there are three times a year that a man is to present himself to the L--RD in the place he chooses. Jerusalem was the place he choose.

So if they weren't in Jerusalem at Passover they would be sinning against G-d which is in exact opposite of their strictness of keeping Torah.

So even if they only went there during the feasts of Passover, Shavuot and Tabernacles to say they were not there would be equivalent to calling them sinners.

The Essenes looked at the Priesthood as illegitimate and were waiting for the teacher of Righteousness to put things right... they did not offer sacrifices at the Temple (Josephus). Philo made the statement that the Essenes did not offer any animal sacrifices.
 
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Lulav

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It could have been anywhere and anyone. Yeshua Himself may have set it up with the man...
I beg to differ, It couldn't have been anywhere. And since he is not mentioned by name but called a 'certain man' means it wasn't just anyone but one who kept the commandments as they were to be kept. Most likely from the factions there at the time would mean an Essence. Also a hint is given where Yeshua calls himself the Teacher. That is seen in the DDS, the Teacher of Righteousness.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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For those who like to deal with the facts of the matter, to understand if the 'last supper' was an actual Passover Seder we need to understand and agree to certain things.

1. That Yeshua was sinless, therefore he would have kept Torah which includes the instructions on how to keep the Passover.
2. That what he did would have been to the letter and not what was Tradition at the time. He was clear on how the Pharisees choose tradition over Torah and he was adamant about that not being the right way.
3. The Statistics--If we are to go by what was being done and what should have been done we will find ourselves in an entanglement that is never ending, thus proving out why this subject comes up every year in this forum.

So we need to take into account that Yeshua was keeping the Passover as it was to be kept, not how it was being kept by the 'establishment'.

The reconciliation between what is written in the gospels is to acknowledge that some parts of the account are based on what was truly correct in keep in with Torah and what was being kept by Tradition by those ruling over the people. Once we realize that it becomes easier to say if the Last Supper was a Seder.

Now based on that I would say it's easy now to see that the 'last supper'
was a Seder. Let's see if Yeshua kept it according to Torah.

  1. It is to be done each year in remembrance of the freedom from Egypt.
  2. It was to be done in Jerusalem.
  3. All men were to come to Jerusalem to keep it before the L-RD
  4. The lamb was to be slaughtered at even (as the sun goes down)
  5. It was to be eaten with bitter herbs and unleavened bread
  6. One lamb per family or group

1. In order to be sinless Yeshua would have to keep the Passover that year so he was without blemish up until the very last.
2. He came to Jerusalem very publicly so he would have many witnesses he was there (riding on a colt)
3. He was keeping this commandment even though he knew what awaited him.
4. This information is missing but Yeshua told his disciples to go and prepare the Passover which included the lamb.
5. Now most compare the translation of 'sop' to be like a gravy to dip bread in, but I propose that this was something similar to the maror we have today. A dish of chopped up bitter herbs, could be something like the chopped horseradish we use today. They didn't use forks or spoons back then, they actually used the bread to scoop up things. This is still done in many parts of the Middle East today. So I propose that when Yeshua spoke of his betrayal and said that ", "He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me" was speaking of Judas. The bitter herbs represented on the Seder plate the bitterness that the enslavement of sin gives us so it was a very good reference to the bitter herbs and Judas, so this part of the Passover we see he kept.
6.The group was the twelve with Yeshua.

I FULLY disagree. Yeshua HIMSELF was the Passover lamb that year. The meal that was the "last supper" was NOT the seder but as I have said many times previously, had elements of it because it was a Pesakh Seudah. In addition there is NO mention of any lamb, which would have been a very important detail to leave out IF it was a seder.
 
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Lulav

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John was a Nazirite for sure from birth, the angel basically said so.... Luke 1:15
It can be inferred from that but we need to see how the wine or strong drink applies to the Essenes as well.

According to some the Essences were the Saints, the ones which maintains a higher holiness in accordance with Torah, not Tradition. Some were believed to adhere to the admonition given to Aaron:

And the L-RD spoke to Aaron, saying,
9 "Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations.
10 You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean.

Notice it says "wine or strong drink' the exact wording from Luke 1, nothing about the hair and the Nazarite vow is only about products of the vine.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I beg to differ, It couldn't have been anywhere. And since he is not mentioned by name but called a 'certain man' means it wasn't just anyone but one who kept the commandments as they were to be kept. Most likely from the factions there at the time would mean an Essence. Also a hint is given where Yeshua calls himself the Teacher. That is seen in the DDS, the Teacher of Righteousness.

You really like to grasp at straws! Anywhere in Yerushalayim. many called Him rabbi and teacher and master...
 
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Lulav

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The Essenes looked at the Priesthood as illegitimate and were waiting for the teacher of Righteousness to put things right... they did not offer sacrifices at the Temple (Josephus). Philo made the statement that the Essenes did not offer any animal sacrifices.
Well that makes sense as to what I posted above. It was not Torah protocol to do it at the Temple.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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It can be inferred from that but we need to see how the wine or strong drink applies to the Essenes as well.

According to some the Essences were the Saints, the ones which maintains a higher holiness in accordance with Torah, not Tradition. Some were believed to adhere to the admonition given to Aaron:

And the L-RD spoke to Aaron, saying,
9 "Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations.
10 You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean.

Notice it says "wine or strong drink' the exact wording from Luke 1, nothing about the hair and the Nazarite vow is only about products of the vine.

Yet John NEVER drank...not only in the tent of meeting. You are assuming something that it is not.
 
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Lulav

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I FULLY disagree. Yeshua HIMSELF was the Passover lamb that year. The meal that was the "last supper" was NOT the seder but as I have said many times previously, had elements of it because it was a Pesakh Seudah. In addition there is NO mention of any lamb, which would have been a very important detail to leave out IF it was a seder.
Part of keeping with Torah is that the lamb had to be secured by the 10th of Nisan/Aviv so that lamb was already set aside for them (not Yeshua).

The lamb was to be slain and eaten with the unleavened bread. Yeshua was very much alive at this Seder.

Do you not think that if there was no lamb at this Passover meal the disciples wouldn't have wondered, questioned that?

They clearly didn't understand what it all meant until afterwards.
 
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Lulav

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You really like to grasp at straws! Anywhere in Yerushalayim. many called Him rabbi and teacher and master...
Yes they called him that but the wording is more specific here.

11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

If the disciples were speaking this they might have called him the Rabbi, but Yeshua is the one telling them what to say.

Also
7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.


'The Passover' was the lamb, why would he tell them to go and prepare it if there was no lamb? The Passover or the Pascha IS the lamb! The Passover (lamb) was to be eaten with bitter herbs and unleavened bread.

They could not have been preparing only herbs and bread as that would only be herbs and bread without a Passover.

Well no it doesn't...they did not sacrifice at all

See above
 
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AbbaLove

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Now a careful read of the requirements shows that All Israel must slay the lamb, not the priests. So at some time the Pharisees must have come up with a 'tradition' that they had to be involved and that the slaying had to be at the temple. However the 'place' that G-d choose to place his name was all of Jerusalem.
Some have estimated that only a few hundred lambs (brought by the influential elite) were slain on the Temple Mount by the Priest(s) with the help of the Levities during the time of Yeshua. It takes a fair amount of time to butcher a lamb, gut it, remove its hide, clean the meat, burn the inwards, etc. It's unlikely that the priests would have time to slaughter thousands of lambs on the afternoon of Aviv/Nisan 14. Many Jews were poor during the Roman occupation and could only afford to buy a dove from the money changers for their Passover sacrifice. This may have been true for Joseph and Mary.

Even slaughtering 15,500 lambs/goats during the afternoon of Aviv/Nisan 14
was a challenge
The Tiny Chapel: How Many Lambs Were Sacrificed at Passover?

The Supposed Temple Ritual During The Time Of Herod By The Priests
"Each representative handed his goat or sheep to a priest who killed the animal, carefully collecting its blood into a bowl. Once the bowl was full, it was transferred to the priest beside him. From him it went to the one beside him, until, like a conveyor belt, it reached another priest who doused the altar with its bloody contents. After the blood has been completely collected, the priest handed the now-dead animal to the representative, who took it and hung it on a hook. Levites came over and removed the skin and innards, which were taken to the altar and burned. Once this was done, the representatives each took their dead goat or sheep and left the Temple compound to find their families. Then each family roasted the meat on a pomegranate branch and ate it in a festive night barbecue."​


1018316866.jpg

Temple Mount activists perform mock sacrifice of Passover lamb in Jerusalem,
March 31, 2015 ... photo by Gil Cohen-Magen​
1018316866.jpg

Members of the Samaritan sect seal an oven after filling it with large sheep skewers during a traditional Passover sacrifice ceremony on Mount Gerizim, near the West Bank City of Nablus ~ April 23, 2013
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Part of keeping with Torah is that the lamb had to be secured by the 10th of Nisan/Aviv so that lamb was already set aside for them (not Yeshua).

The lamb was to be slain and eaten with the unleavened bread. Yeshua was very much alive at this Seder.

Do you not think that if there was no lamb at this Passover meal the disciples wouldn't have wondered, questioned that?

They clearly didn't understand what it all meant until afterwards.

The Lamb (Yeshua) was secured when He rode in and was accepted by the people. He then was questioned for 4 days and was found to be un-blemished. If you want to believe it was an actual Pesakh seder when many things point to it NOT being one, that is up to you :)
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Yes they called him that but the wording is more specific here.

11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

If the disciples were speaking this they might have called him the Rabbi, but Yeshua is the one telling them what to say.

Also
7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.


'The Passover' was the lamb, why would he tell them to go and prepare it if there was no lamb? The Passover or the Pascha IS the lamb! The Passover (lamb) was to be eaten with bitter herbs and unleavened bread.

They could not have been preparing only herbs and bread as that would only be herbs and bread without a Passover.



See above

Sorry, not convinced. Also, the Essenes did not sacrifice. You cant have a Pesakh seder without lamb and the lambs were slain the next day at the same time as Yeshua was killed. It was not a Pesakh seder...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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:scratch: Not sure i'm understanding you here, please explain. Tent of meeting?

you posted the Scripture...they could not drink only in the tent of meeting...John NEVER drank
 
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Lulav

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Yes, I was going to get into the statistics of how many lambs were slaughtered, how many men were there in Jerusalem, etc for it to have been practical of the timing.

Many Jews were poor during the Roman occupation and could only afford to buy a dove from the money changers for their Passover sacrifice. This may have been true for Joseph and Mary.

That would be a good point except I don't know of any substitution for the lamb except a kid (young goat). This is something many miss, that the Passover could be either a kid or lamb. To me that shows the sinless lamb who would when sacrificed be the goat for azazel thus making Yeshua both the Passover lamb the one that saves from death and also the atonement as in the one who was unblemished had the sins of the congregation placed upon his head.
 
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pat34lee

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