Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?

Fidelibus

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2017
1,185
300
67
U.S.A.
✟66,007.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Of course, and it is a waste of time to try to open up the closed-and-locked-right-as-a-drum. But I will if someone alerts me. But I'm not closely following this.

What do ya know, guess I'm not the only one that's noticed the discord/disunity among you all. But the question remains.....


Why all the disagreements? Surely, you all would agree there is no possible way the Holy Spirit could be in error..... right? So...... after this observation, the question to you all is, which of you are in error, and which one of you thinks they're not in error of your interpretations/ understandings of the Scripture passages posted?
 
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,304
982
Houston, TX
✟154,103.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Look, if someone has actually been filled with the Spirit, and actually been given gifts of the Spirit, which I don't know if he ever was or not.

(I was in a Pentecostal church for five years before I was filled and saved. It is not going to a Pentecostal church that Hebrews 6 is about, but of those who experienced the presence of God and operated in His gifts it is about, among other things such as sacrificing animals again for atonement.)

But if he was, then yes, it is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and impossible for him to come out of a state of arrogance. "The last state is worse than not ever knowing."
Ok, I see you saying:
If a person was raised in a Pentecostal church, spoke modern Pentecostal glossalalia, then was convinced by the scripture and conscience that what he was doing (tongues) was not of God, but of himself, left the Pentecostal church for what he considered a more Biblical denomination (obviously quitting his practice of glossalalia), and even began telling other Pentecostals that their tongues might actually be of the flesh and not of the Spirit, then you are saying this is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and such a man has become this Hebrews 6:6 apostate, and is lost forever, since he has committed the unpardonable sin and cannot be renewed to repentance. Do I have you correctly?
TD:)
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Re: thinking is a good habit to get into. Here is what Paul had to say, . . . . . . For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."
Could it be that as I was conversing with another regarding the majesty ofthe foolishness of God, that it’s insight was maybe greater than the mere human wisdomthat you were expecting?

Should I have to say, that it is never a wise move to publicly denigrate the knowledge and skills of another, particularly if you have been unable to engage with the material being discussed.

About three weeks back I borrowed a book about the views of the renowned philosopher Soren Kierkegaard, where it sat on my desk while I wondered what I should do with it, other than with maybe returning it to the University library unread. Anyway, last night I decided to move outside of my comfort zone where I began read the book, though things did not begin all that well as I had to refer to a dictionary near the end of the first line. Having now read about six pages, which is better translated as having read the first two pages at least three times each; having now moved outside of my comfort zone I am now beginning to realise that it was probably a good move as I have already been able to expand my field of understanding.

So, it is always good to go beyond our comfort zone, where we widen our understanding about things we knew very little about.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Two pages later from this post, and the only thing that's changed is a few more posters to put on the list. Do you all not see it?

Wow!
As I have been engaging with Roman Catholics on the issue of the Holy Spirit since the 1970's, then I can assure you that they have as many conflicting views as anyone - and probably more!
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Would you like to explain the Greek grammer that says "teleios" which means "Completed" and must a THING and not a person as He is not a thing.

[Staff edit].

Though it would still be legitimate to speak of the Parousia as being the return of Christ, as this is still an event. To repeat myself, theologically speaking, the Parousia refers to the state of affairs that immediately arise after the Return of Christ with his Kingdom.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

Francis Drake

Returning adventurer.
Apr 14, 2013
4,000
2,508
✟184,952.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Independence-Party
That just can not be.

There will still be rebellion during the 1000 year rule of Christ so it can not be that.

At the end of the 1000 year Rule of Christ, men will rebel and sin when Satan is loosened and he will temp men and they will sin thus ending your thinking.
That's silly.
The fact that men sin doesn't mean Christ is imperfect.
But Teleios is about this epoch reaching its end with the arrival of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
How annoying, but thanks.
It took me ages to do my above post from first principles and then find you have beaten me to it.
Yes, that can hurt a bit - been there, done that myself!

For those of us who had any exposure to the Charismatic Renewal of the 60's and 70's, even as teenagers, we should have each come across many individuals who stated that they embraced the Full Gospel once they understood that 1 Cor 13:10 had nothing to do with the completed Canon. During the 1970's many cessationist leaders seemed to panic as they were losing many of their members to either the Pentecostals or to the new charismatic congregations within their Denominations, so they felt compelled to pull any trick that they could and of course the 'completed Canon' was one of their least effective tools. Once Believers began to approach the Word with an openness to the Truth, they quickly discarded this relatively new teaching (I can't call it a doctrine as it has absolutely no foundation even as a possibility), this meant that they were free to embrace the fullness of the Spirit.

As I said in my earlier post, I currently have about 250 books that are either monograph commentaries on First Corinthians or where they provide substantial comment on 1 Cor 13:8-12 and what stands out is that the Canon of Scripture approach only had an active lifespan of maybe 40 years, where by the late 70's it seems to have been primarily relegated to the domain of the fundamentalist Baptists etc.

The more astute contemporary cessationist will not go near the strange notion that 1Cor 13:10 refers to anything but the state of affairs that follows after the Return of Christ; what most of them appear to do is to follow a more philosophical rather than a Biblical approach to the Ministry of the Holy Spirit within the contemporary Church.
 
Upvote 0

Francis Drake

Returning adventurer.
Apr 14, 2013
4,000
2,508
✟184,952.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Independence-Party
Well then we agree. And that is what I posted too, but instead of agreeing, you get offended???
I'm not in the least bit offended 1cl, just completely puzzled why you posted it.
It seemed you were trying to correct me when, from your previous posts I thought we were on the same message.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Ok, I see you saying:
If a person was raised in a Pentecostal church, spoke modern Pentecostal glossalalia, then was convinced by the scripture and conscience that what he was doing (tongues) was not of God, but of himself, left the Pentecostal church for what he considered a more Biblical denomination (obviously quitting his practice of glossalalia), and even began telling other Pentecostals that their tongues might actually be of the flesh and not of the Spirit, then you are saying this is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and such a man has become this Hebrews 6:6 apostate, and is lost forever, since he has committed the unpardonable sin and cannot be renewed to repentance. Do I have you correctly?
TD:)

Absolutely not. Anyone can mimic tongues and not be filled with the Spirit. (I've seen it.) But if one IS baptized with the Holy Spirit, their life has taken a dramatic change overnight, has no desire to sin, can actually hear God's voice, every prayer is answered, speak in fluid tongues, and THEN fall away...

Well, you see the difference...or would that be fake to you as well?
 
  • Like
Reactions: pescador
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
I'm not in the least bit offended 1cl, just completely puzzled why you posted it.
It seemed you were trying to correct me when, from your previous posts I thought we were on the same message.

No, I wasn't correcting you! I was trying to show you I believe the same as you, even to the same wording! Don't you know how the Spirit confirms you through others?

You may just be in a mind-set of warfare, that if you get any response, they must be attacking you. LOL Maybe you need some R&R. This is like a soap opera. You go away for a few weeks, and when you come back, it's like you never left - nothing has changed. They haven't grasped a word of truth, still twist the same scriptures (1 Cor. 14:2; 14:22; 13:8), no matter how other scripture explains away their theories, and cut and paste the same thing from multiple posts ago.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, that can hurt a bit - been there, done that myself!

For those of us who had any exposure to the Charismatic Renewal of the 60's and 70's, even as teenagers, we should have each come across many individuals who stated that they embraced the Full Gospel once they understood that 1 Cor 13:10 had nothing to do with the completed Canon. During the 1970's many cessationist leaders seemed to panic as they were losing many of their members to either the Pentecostals or to the new charismatic congregations within their Denominations, so they felt compelled to pull any trick that they could and of course the 'completed Canon' was one of their least effective tools. Once Believers began to approach the Word with an openness to the Truth, they quickly discarded this relatively new teaching (I can't call it a doctrine as it has absolutely no foundation even as a possibility), this meant that they were free to embrace the fullness of the Spirit.

As I said in my earlier post, I currently have about 250 books that are either monograph commentaries on First Corinthians or where they provide substantial comment on 1 Cor 13:8-12 and what stands out is that the Canon of Scripture approach only had an active lifespan of maybe 40 years, where by the late 70's it seems to have been primarily relegated to the domain of the fundamentalist Baptists etc.

The more astute contemporary cessationist will not go near the strange notion that 1Cor 13:10 refers to anything but the state of affairs that follows after the Return of Christ; what most of them appear to do is to follow a more philosophical rather than a Biblical approach to the Ministry of the Holy Spirit within the contemporary Church.

I may know the answer to where the 'completion of the canon' theory got started. I have an old book that was the thesis of a student who later became a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary!
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I may know the answer to where the 'completion of the canon' theory got started. I have an old book that was the thesis of a student who later became a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary!
To say that you have caught my attention would be an understatement!

Of the 50 or so commentaries that I have from 1801-1900, the earlierst definitive reference that I have found to the Canon theory was by Jamieson (1872). . . . okay . . . . I'm waiting for a reply . . . . . I'm still waiting!!!
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
To say that you have caught my attention would be an understatement!

Of the 50 or so commentaries that I have from 1801-1900, the earlierst definitive reference that I have found to the Canon theory was by Jamieson (1872). . . . okay . . . . I'm waiting for a reply . . . . . I'm still waiting!!!

Maybe this student copied Jamieson's theory then, because he is definitely 20th century. Sorry. I'll PM yu his name.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Maybe this student copied Jamieson's theory then, because he is definitely 20th century. Sorry. I'll PM yu his name.
Thankyou.

I should say that even though the Canon, or even the perfect state of the Church perspectives were essentially unknown or remained unaddressed by the Academy up until the end of the 19th century, a number of the commentators from the 1800's have made mention that "many feel that the gifts died out with the completion of the Canon", but the first scholar to put this into print appears to that of Jamieson (1875). This conundrum between what was apparently commonly felt among at least the rank and file of the Church and with what the scholars were prepared to put into print is of some interest.

Undoubtedly there were more members of the Academy beyond just that of Jamieson who thought along the same lines, after all, they had to have a reason why things were so dry within the Church of their day, but the fact that they were not prepared to present a Biblical argument for the Canon viewpoint is interesting.

Even though I believe that I have obtained a good sample of Commentary, be it with around 50 commentaries on First Corinthians, so that I can obtain a more accurate understanding of the thinking within the Academy of the 19th century, I am still in the process of sourcing other commentary from this time period as I really find it strange that Jamieson was the only one to put his neck on the line.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Thankyou.

I should say that even though the Canon, or even the perfect state of the Church perspectives were essentially unknown or remained unaddressed by the Academy up until the end of the 19th century, a number of the commentators from the 1800's have made mention that "many feel that the gifts died out with the completion of the Canon", but the first scholar to put this into print appears to that of Jamieson (1875). This conundrum between what was apparently commonly felt among at least the rank and file of the Church and with what the scholars were prepared to put into print is of some interest.

Undoubtedly there were more members of the Academy beyond just that of Jamieson who thought along the same lines, after all, they had to have a reason why things were so dry within the Church of their day, but the fact that they were not prepared to present a Biblical argument for the Canon viewpoint is interesting.

Even though I believe that I have obtained a good sample of Commentary, be it with around 50 commentaries on First Corinthians, so that I can obtain a more accurate understanding of the thinking within the Academy of the 19th century, I am still in the process of sourcing other commentary from this time period as I really find it strange that Jamieson was the only one to put his neck on the line.

I PM'd you his name.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Sorry. I'll PM yu his name.
The name of that author was much appreciated as I am a bit frustrated with the lack of published material that supports the Canon perspective. I realise that it is not desirable to have what we perceive to be poor doctrine being published, but to be fair to their position my paper needs to be well balanced.

There will undoubtedly be a huge amount of material such as the type that the fundamentalist Baptists and Chick Magazine produce, but to obtain peer reviewed published (not self-published) material has been quite a challenge.

One of the professors at a cessationist college that I have access to has very kindly given his permission to digitise his 2001 Master's thesis that supported the Canon/maturity perspective, but due to copyright issues it cannot be published but only referred to; I am greatly appreciative of his kindness, but beyond this there does not seem to be anything else available within the 12 Christian University and College libraries that I now access.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
The name of that author was much appreciated as I am a bit frustrated with the lack of published material that supports the Canon perspective. I realise that it is not desirable to have what we perceive to be poor doctrine being published, but to be fair to their position my paper needs to be well balanced.

There will undoubtedly be a huge amount of material such as the type that the fundamentalist Baptists and Chick Magazine produce, but to obtain peer reviewed published (not self-published) material has been quite a challenge.

One of the professors at a cessationist college that I have access to has very kindly given his permission to digitise his 2001 Master's thesis that supported the Canon/maturity perspective, but due to copyright issues it cannot be published but only referred to; I am greatly appreciative of kindness, but beyond this there does not seem to be anything else available within the 12 Christian University and College libraries that I now access.

Check out the other name I just gave you, and in his books against the Charismatics, check his bibliography where he lists his sources.
 
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,304
982
Houston, TX
✟154,103.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Absolutely not. Anyone can mimic tongues and not be filled with the Spirit. (I've seen it.) But if one IS baptized with the Holy Spirit, their life has taken a dramatic change overnight, has no desire to sin, can actually hear God's voice, every prayer is answered, speak in fluid tongues, and THEN fall away...

Well, you see the difference...or would that be fake to you as well?
1. When you say "mimic" do you mean consciously or unconsciously? Is the person who mimics tongues doing it purposely and consciously?

2. Can a person unconsciously (without trying) mimic tongues?
TD:)
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟250,347.00
Faith
Christian
[Staff edit].

the Parousia refers to the state of affairs that immediately arise after the Return of Christ with his Kingdom.

No, the word Parousia refers to the 2nd coming of Christ itself. The Greek word parousia means 'the coming' and is used in the NT in reference to Christ's return. You are confusing the Parousia with the Eternal State.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Winner
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟250,347.00
Faith
Christian
As I said in my earlier post, I currently have about 250 books that are either monograph commentaries on First Corinthians or where they provide substantial comment on 1 Cor 13:8-12 and what stands out is that the Canon of Scripture approach only had an active lifespan of maybe 40 years, where by the late 70's it seems to have been primarily relegated to the domain of the fundamentalist Baptists etc.

40 years?!!! You clearly have not researched this properly at all, despite your claims. The canon theory has been espoused by numerous theologians from the 1600's right up to the present day (with probably the majority SINCE the 70's). I've posted several of their published expositions on these boards and you have never been able to refute them. Let's see if young Francis Drake can pickup the baton and succeed where you failed. I see that he at least wisely accepts that teleios should be translated 'completeness'.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0