Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
The above hypothesis while extensive is not how I see it in Scripture. It appears to me what Paul is talking about is a person "maturing" and "maturity in Christ" not, "cannonization of Scripture".

Back in 1971 I used to believe the same thing, that the perfect was the Bible. I was also a blind cessationist. I didn't know enough back then to read in context. But one day while writing to a Pentecostal girl who believed in the things of the Spirit, and wanted me to believe too, I started using 1 Corinthians 13 as an argument. And also how the gifts were for when we were "childish." Then I kept reading to see what else I could throw at her, and came straight to "then FACE TO FACE."

THEN is not a book ABOUT God. THEN was when my blessed Lord would return for me and I would see Him in the flesh, face to face.

Even with the Bible AND all of the gifts, we still see God as through a dark glass, and even argue about Him. We cannot fathom what He is really - in all His glory. All we have is our imagination. But, at least, with the gifts, we can actually hear His voice. And receive immediate answers to prayer. And receive healings and miracles on this decaying earth. Reading about something, is not the same as being there. The written Word even says so: "But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

You know - I never did send that letter. A light had been turned on in my spirit, and I had to humble myself to receive ALL that God had for me - HERE. It took a few years of searching and seeking God. But in 1977 I was filled to overflowing with His Spirit, and the supernatural Holy God gave me the same gifts written about in the Bible, I had arrogantly and foolishly thought ended millennia ago.
 
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,298
975
Houston, TX
✟153,927.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Ex-Pentecostals cannot be turned back. Guess who is an ex-Pentecostal.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
So then, are you intending to condemn anyone who was once Pentecostal and now is not?
TD:)
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
So then, are you intending to condemn anyone who was once Pentecostal and now is not?
TD:)

No, just feel sorry for them. When you fall away from an experiential belief, believing it was all a lie, you will never let yourself go back into the same "lie." Even if it was the truth all along.

This thread was started by an ex-Pentecostal and it has gone on for over 2000 posts. I rest my case. Actually, it was rested in Hebrews 6. He won't listen to me and a long time ago in this very thread put me on ignore. He doesn't want to hear the answers to his questions.
 
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,298
975
Houston, TX
✟153,927.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
The notion, that "perfect" is meant to represent the bible, may well be a nice tradition Major, but its provably false.

Paul's that which is "perfect" can only refer to the fulfilment of Christ's personal reign on earth, because that's when the "perfect" will be here in our midst.

The following shows the correct meaning of the Greek word usually translated "perfect".-
Strong's online Concordance.
5046. teleios
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).


[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]

Therefore until the second coming and the reign of Jesus Christ, nothing is fit to be called completed, fulfilled or perfect.

Until that fulfilment or completion, the ministry and gifts will continue, despite the charlatans who insist otherwise.

And of course, that also explains why the gifts of the Holy Spirit will cease when that future kingdom fully comes. Who needs prophecy, visions or healing etc. when you are actually living in the presence of the great King.

The gifts of the spirit are just partial glimpses of our future kingdom life, as experienced on earth.

As Paul said, "today we see (the things of Christ) through a glass obscurely, but then face to face".

It can only be face to face when Jesus comes again.
That's why "that which is perfect" could never possibly mean the bible.

And that's why the gifts and ministry of the Holy Spirit absolutely must continue until the King comes.
Paul's that which is "perfect" can only refer to the fulfilment of Christ's personal reign on earth, because that's when the "perfect" will be here in our midst.

FD, what exactly is the scope of your "perfect" that you're talking about here, since the scope of perfection in each context may be different. It is not reliable to take two isolated passages and try to make the same word in each context exactly the same meaning. In the context of the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth (if indeed that is what you are referring to), there is still no absolute perfection, since Christ will need to rule the nations with a rod of iron. Therefore there must still be many imperfections within the nations. The imperfection will ultimately be proven by the fact that at the end of the 1000 year reign, Satan will again deceive the nations, which shows that imperfection will still be in the world even at that time. This case of comparison is more a case of comparing apples and oranges. If Paul is referring to the coming of Christ, then it is more likely he is talking about resurrection and glorification of believers, not Christ's personal reign on earth.
TD:)
 
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,298
975
Houston, TX
✟153,927.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
No, just feel sorry for them. When you fall away from an experiential belief, believing it was all a lie, you will never let yourself go back into the same "lie." Even if it was the truth all along.

This thread was started by an ex-Pentecostal and it has gone on for over 2000 posts. I rest my case. Actually, it was rested in Hebrews 6. He won't listen to me and a long time ago in this very thread put me on ignore. He doesn't want to hear the answers to his questions.
So then, you didn't realize that the verse you just quoted is a statement of condemnation in that context?
TD:)
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
1 Corinthians 13


8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, THEN that which is in part will be done away.

...12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but THEN face to face. Now I know in part, but THEN I shall know just as I also am known.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: pescador
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
So then, you didn't realize that the verse you just quoted is a statement of condemnation in that context?
TD:)

Look, if someone has actually been filled with the Spirit, and actually been given gifts of the Spirit, which I don't know if he ever was or not.

(I was in a Pentecostal church for five years before I was filled and saved. It is not going to a Pentecostal church that Hebrews 6 is about, but of those who experienced the presence of God and operated in His gifts it is about, among other things such as sacrificing animals again for atonement.)

But if he was, then yes, it is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and impossible for him to come out of a state of arrogance. "The last state is worse than not ever knowing."
 
Upvote 0

Francis Drake

Returning adventurer.
Apr 14, 2013
4,000
2,508
✟184,952.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Independence-Party
The lexicon you quoted, as do all modern lexicons, says that teleios can mean perfect, complete or mature. The old King James bible that predominated western Christianity for three centuries opted for "the perfect" which, along with a lack of decent lexicographical resources, is why so many pre-20th century commentators interpreted this passage as referring to Christ’s return.

However when a word has multiple meanings we need to look at the context to decide which is the correct translation. And it becomes obvious ‘completeness’ is the better word for the following reasons:
  • It is clear ‘ek merous’ (in part) and ‘teleios’ (completeness or the perfect) are in antithesis with each other. If it is translated as ‘the perfect’ you are awkwardly pitting a quantitative concept (in part) against a qualitative concept (perfect). If it is translated ‘completeness’ there is no such tension.

  • The equivalent antithesis pair in v12 (‘in part’ and ‘fully’) are both quantitative.

  • It makes far better grammatical sense - the incomplete will be replaced by the complete.

  • Paul's other use of the word teleios in his epistles overwhelmingly relate to completing/developing/maturing rather than perfecting (1 Cor 2:6, 1 Cor 14:20, Phil 3:15, Eph 4:13, Col 1:28, Col 4:12, Heb 5:14), making it more likely that the same applies here.

  • Throughout scripture and Greek literature when teleios is used in proximity to nēpiois (child), as in v14, it invariably means developing into an adult. See 1 Cor 14:20, Eph. 4:13-14, Heb. 5:13

Many bible versions such as the NIV have realised this and have changed their translations from "the perfect" to "completeness". About a third of bibles now have ‘completeness’ (or similar wording) in their translations and I suspect more and more translation committees will likewise follow suit in their future editions.
Thanks @swordsman1, I happen to agree completely, and have believed that for decades. That's why I pasted the Strong's concordance reference and underlined those specific points.

In the content of my post, you will see I added the words completed or fulfilled alongside Perfect to emphasise that fact.
I only included the word Perfect because it was a response to @Major1 who was using the word to describe the bible.
But what is this completeness? Is it the completed NT canon or the return of Christ? I would say the canon for the following reasons:
  • “Completeness” is the antithesis of “in part”, so it is obvious these two quantitative expressions are related. Whatever ‘in part’ is referring to, almost certainly applies to ‘completeness’. That which is ‘in part’ is the practice of the gifts of prophecy and words of knowledge (v9), both of which are revelations from God. It follows therefore that ‘completeness’ would also involve revelation.
  • You're doing well, I'm with you so far!
  • [*]“In part” refers to the fact that the revelation communicated by these gifts was partial or piecemeal. The corresponding “completeness”, as the counterpart to “in part” must then refer to a full or complete revelation from God.
    [*]
  • Again, you're doing well swordsman, and I'm still with you!
  • [*]This can only be seen as the completed revelation God as preserved in the New Testament
    [*]
  • Aaaargh. You've just dropped the ball completely..........!
  • The only complete Teleios Revelation of God is Christ himself!
  • You're not serious in imagining that the Lord has absolutely nothing more to say to his own children?
  • At the time of Paul's writing the early church needed prophecy and words of knowledge to guide them in the faith in the absence of a New Testament. However when a church had a completed canon, it would no longer need the gift of prophecy to guide them. Thus, the completed canon would replace the partial prophecies and words of knowledge.
  • It is erroneous thinking to imagine that scripture somehow replaces the prophetic ministry. The Old Testament period demonstrates this clearly as the two ran side by side, and that is how the early church worked and was meant to function till Christ's return.
  • In other scriptures teleios is never used to describe heaven, Christ's return, or anything eschatological.
  • Neither is it anywhere used to describe your so called completed canon of scripture.
  • [*]It is however used to describe scripture in James 1:25
    [*]
  • No no no its not, but lets check that out!
  • James1v25But whoever looks intently into the perfect (teleios) law that gives freedom, and continues in it--not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it--they will be blessed in what they do.
  • Amusingly, all 28 translations of James1v25 in Biblehub.com use the word perfect rather than the better "completed" as you outlined above.
  • So although thousands wouldn't, I happen to agree with you, so lets run with that.
  • But to claim teleios is used to describe the scriptures is a trifle dishonest swordsman, when
    there's zero reference whatsoever to the scriptures in the whole chapter!
    [*]In fact, teleios is referring to the word nomos which means law, and again that cannot mean the Law of Moses because we know from Hebrews, that law doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to perfection stakes.
  • Heb7v19 for the Law (nomos) made nothing perfect (Teleios), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
  • The context reveals that James is referring to the Law of Liberty, in Christ Jesus, not OT or NT law.
  • 'Face to face' in v12 is not referring to seeing Christ as continuationists suppose. There is no mention of Christ in this passage.
  • But using your own argument, there is absolutely no reference to the canon of scripture either!
  • [*]'Face to face' is referring to the analogy of a mirror. At the time of Paul's writing, when church had to rely on piecemeal prophecies for guidance in the faith in the absence of the NT,
    [*]
  • Apart from various letters from the apostles, they had the whole of the Old Testament scriptures, which Jesus made clear were all about him.
  • [*]it was like seeing dimly in a poor mirror (mirrors were poor quality in those days). But when 'completeness' came, it would be like looking at someone 'face to face'. Prophecies would cease and we would have God's revelation to man presented in a far superior way.
    [*]
    You also forget that all scripture starts as fresh prophecy given direct from the voice of the Holy Spirit. So it's hardly sensible to claim that Christ's historic words are better than Christ speaking afresh now through the gifts. Or that his historic words are better than when he comes again!
  • The analogy of a child maturing into a man in v11 indicates that the process would not be an instantaneous one (as would happen at the 2nd coming) but rather something that occurs over a period of time, as the completed canon is distributed among the churches. This ties in perfectly with church history where the early church fathers (100-200AD) said tongues were still active, the middle fathers (200-300 AD) saying they are rare, and the late fathers (300-400AD) saying the gifts have ceased.
  • None of this has any relevance to your story.
  • That apostasy gradually entered the church and the gifts of the spirit receded into the background is no basis whatsoever to create a doctrine. Many other errors entered the church at that time, and persecution of the true saints, (those who held to both the written word and the gifts,) was done by both pagan governments as well as by apostate Christians.
  • In v13 it says that faith hope and love would remain after the 3 gifts had ceased. The greatest is love because love never ceases (v8), but faith and hope cease at the 2nd coming when they become reality (Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."; 2 Cor 5:6-7 "while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord - for we walk by faith, not by sight"; Rom 8:24 "but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?"). So if faith and hope cease at the 2nd coming and outlast the 3 gifts then the 3 gifts must cease before the 2nd coming.
  • But that's all make believe because in no place does it doesn't it state that faith and hope outlast the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
  • Again this is all irrelevant fluff.
  • If Paul was referring to the 2nd coming, then it wouldn't just be prophecy, words of knowledge, and tongues that will cease. All the spiritual gifts will cease. In the eternal state there will be no need for healers, pastors, teachers, evangelists, giving, faith, discernment of spirits, etc.
  • Ah, that's more sensible swordsman, I've said this previously so we're back in agreement again.
  • [*]Yet Paul makes no mention of those ceasing. When completeness comes (the completed canon)
    [*]
  • Stop trying to be funny swordsman. There has never been a single reference in any scripture to the completed canon and you know that.
  • [*]only the revelatory gifts cease, the purpose of which was to provide divine guidance in the faith in the absence of scripture.
  • If the revelatory gifts have ceased, then what are we left with other than human intellect.
  • [*]This interpretation is corroborated elsewhere in scripture, notably in Eph 2:20 which says that apostles and prophets were only for the foundation of the church.
    [*]
  • Your scripture does not say the apostles and prophets were "only" for the foundation of the church. As usual, you added the word "only" into the text to make it suit your pet doctrines.
  • [*]Few people deny that apostles ceased after the founding the church and this verse undeniably says the same applies to prophets.
  • That verse said no such thing!!!
  • [*]And of course history confirms this interpretation. Tongues etc did indeed cease shortly after the apostolic age.
History does not show that at all.
Tongues, although subject to massive persecution by the Roman Catholic church, and
Protestant churches
since the Reformation, has never entirely ceased.
 
Upvote 0

Francis Drake

Returning adventurer.
Apr 14, 2013
4,000
2,508
✟184,952.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Independence-Party
FD, what exactly is the scope of your "perfect" that you're talking about here, since the scope of perfection in each context may be different. It is not reliable to take two isolated passages and try to make the same word in each context exactly the same meaning. In the context of the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth (if indeed that is what you are referring to), there is still no absolute perfection, since Christ will need to rule the nations with a rod of iron. Therefore there must still be many imperfections within the nations. The imperfection will ultimately be proven by the fact that at the end of the 1000 year reign, Satan will again deceive the nations, which shows that imperfection will still be in the world even at that time. This case of comparison is more a case of comparing apples and oranges. If Paul is referring to the coming of Christ, then it is more likely he is talking about resurrection and glorification of believers, not Christ's personal reign on earth.
TD:)
TD, you need to read the extract I pasted from Strong's Concordance, and you will see that the use of Perfection is a poor translation.
Also Swordsman, (who contends with me on this thread) posted a good explanation of the same in his Post No 2180.

As stated, Paul's that which is perfect, or more accurately, complete, refers to the period that is fulfilled when Jesus comes again.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
TD, you need to read the extract I pasted from Strong's Concordance, and you will see that the use of Perfection is a poor translation.
Also Swordsman, (who contends with me on this thread) posted a good explanation of the same in his Post No 2180.

As stated, Paul's that which is perfect, or more accurately, complete, refers to the period that is fulfilled when Jesus comes again.

Read #2187. It has to do with the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. Knowing Him. Even with the Bible, AND the gifts we still see Him and know Him like looking at Him through a dark glass. The connecting word from 'what is the perfect' is "THEN."
 
Upvote 0

Francis Drake

Returning adventurer.
Apr 14, 2013
4,000
2,508
✟184,952.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Independence-Party
Read #2187. It has to do with the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. Knowing Him. Even with the Bible, AND the gifts we still see Him and know Him like looking at Him through a dark glass. The connecting word from 'what is the perfect' is "THEN."
Not really sure why you posted this, have you not read my previous posts?

It's not the knowledge of God we need, but knowing him personally as he knows us. As Paul says, that is currently very limited, or partial.
Intimately knowing him will only happen when he comes again, or we die.
And that is what I have been posting again and again and again.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The above hypothesis while extensive is not how I see it in Scripture. It appears to me what Paul is talking about is a person "maturing" and "maturity in Christ" not, "cannonization of Scripture".

Would you like to explain the Greek grammer that says "teleios" which means "Completed" and must a THING and not a person as He is not a thing.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
TD, you need to read the extract I pasted from Strong's Concordance, and you will see that the use of Perfection is a poor translation.
Also Swordsman, (who contends with me on this thread) posted a good explanation of the same in his Post No 2180.

As stated, Paul's that which is perfect, or more accurately, complete, refers to the period that is fulfilled when Jesus comes again.

That just can not be.

There will still be rebellion during the 1000 year rule of Christ so it can not be that.

At the end of the 1000 year Rule of Christ, men will rebel and sin when Satan is loosened and he will temp men and they will sin thus ending your thinking.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Would you like to explain the Greek grammer that says "teleios" which means "Completed" and must a THING and not a person as He is not a thing.
I can only assume you guys are talking about the 'perfect thing' that's the eternal state not the Scriptures.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Biblicist
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟250,347.00
Faith
Christian
The only complete Teleios Revelation of God is Christ himself!

That's your theory, but it's not in scripture. Teleios is never used to describe Christ, or his return.

You're not serious in imagining that the Lord has absolutely nothing more to say to his own children?

God speaks to us today, but not through the gift of prophecy.

It is erroneous thinking to imagine that scripture somehow replaces the prophetic ministry. The Old Testament period demonstrates this clearly as the two ran side by side, and that is how the early church worked and was meant to function till Christ's return.

Where is your proof for that assertion?

  • Amusingly, all 28 translations of James1v25 in Biblehub.com use the word perfect rather than the better "completed" as you outlined above.
  • So although thousands wouldn't, I happen to agree with you, so lets run with that.

I never said teleios should be translated 'complete' in James 1.25. I said teleios was used to describe scripture in that verse.

  • But to claim teleios is used to describe the scriptures is a trifle dishonest swordsman, when
    there's zero reference whatsoever to the scriptures in the whole chapter!
    [*]In fact, teleios is referring to the word nomos which means law, and again that cannot mean the Law of Moses because we know from Hebrews, that law doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to perfection stakes.
  • Heb7v19 for the Law (nomos) made nothing perfect (Teleios), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
  • The context reveals that James is referring to the Law of Liberty, in Christ Jesus, not OT or NT law.

Read your own quote from Hebrews again. It doesn't say the law isn't perfect, it says it made nothing perfect. The Mosaic Law itself IS perfect:

Ps 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul"


You also forget that all scripture starts as fresh prophecy given direct from the voice of the Holy Spirit. So it's hardly sensible to claim that Christ's historic words are better than Christ speaking afresh now through the gifts. Or that his historic words are better than when he comes again!

You didn't read my post properly. I didn't say that God's revelation in scripture was superior to prophecy. I agree both are the word of God. I said it was PRESENTED in a far superior way. Instead of peicemeal prophecies guiding individual people in the faith, they now had a completed book that everyone could have access to. And so prophecy ceased.

That apostasy gradually entered the church and the gifts of the spirit receded into the background is no basis whatsoever to create a doctrine. Many other errors entered the church at that time, and persecution of the true saints, (those who held to both the written word and the gifts,) was done by both pagan governments as well as by apostate Christians.

I presume you are referring to the RC church. Where is your evidence that they persecuted Christians with gifts, and so causing the demise of the gifts.

But that's all make believe because in no place does it doesn't it state that faith and hope outlast the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Read v13. It says faith, hope and love would remain. Remain after what? After the 3 gifts have ceased of course, as discussed in the preceding verses.

There has never been a single reference in any scripture to the completed canon and you know that.

There isn't a single reference to the Trinity either, but it can be deduced (just as this can).

And for the record, I don't say it is the completed canon itself that brought about the cessation of the revelatory gifts. It was their distribution and the subsequent maturity of the church that ensued. That process is not something that be expressed in a single word, which is why Paul uses the adjective teleios (completeness/maturity) without an accompanying noun. If he was referring to Christ, his return, heaven, or eternity he would have used the appropriate Greek noun for those things.

If the revelatory gifts have ceased, then what are we left with other than human intellect.

The completed canon of course!

Your scripture does not say the apostles and prophets were "only" for the foundation of the church. As usual, you added the word "only" into the text to make it suit your pet doctrines.

With or without 'only' that verse is still a stumbling block to continationists. Wayne Grudem's book on prophecy tried at length to address it, but failed. His novel re-interpretation of Eph 2:20 was quickly refuted.

Tongues, although subject to massive persecution by the Roman Catholic church, and
Protestant churches
since the Reformation, has never entirely ceased.

Again where is your evidence that the RC church persecuted tongue speakers? There must be some documented evidence. And if that was the case why didn't tongues reappear at the Reformation?
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Not really sure why you posted this, have you not read my previous posts?

It's not the knowledge of God we need, but knowing him personally as he knows us. As Paul says, that is currently very limited, or partial.
Intimately knowing him will only happen when he comes again, or we die.
And that is what I have been posting again and again and again.

Well then we agree. And that is what I posted too, but instead of agreeing, you get offended??? I'm sorry I haven't read many of your posts as they weren't to me. I've posted in this thread, but arguing gets old, especially over 2000 times without anything new being said! Major and swordsman post the same thing over and over and don't even answer a short question from me when I stump them. Well, actually Major stopped and put me on ignore. But swordsman does that.
 
Upvote 0

Fidelibus

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2017
1,185
300
67
U.S.A.
✟66,007.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Just an observation. I peeked in on this thread just so see whats being discussed. What I noticed, is what Catholics within this forum have been saying is true right here on this page #108. That being, without any authority, there is discord as seen here, which equals to the fact of disunity and why there are tens of thousands of different Protestant/ Evangelical/ Fundamental/ Non-Denominational churches and sects throughout the globe. I am willing to wager that if I were to ask any of the posters, (pescador, 1rstcenturylady, Biblicist, Explorer55, swordsman1, bbbbbbb, and Major1) if the're interpretations of the Scripture passages they are commenting on was inspired by the Holy Spirit, so they have to be correct, they would say yes.

If that is the case, why the disagreements? Surely, you all would agree there is no possible way the Holy Spirit could be in error..... right? So...... after this observation, the question to you all is, which of you are in error, and which one of you thinks they're not?


Two pages later from this post, and the only thing that's changed is a few more posters to put on the list. Do you all not see it?

Wow!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Two pages later from this post, and the only thing that's changed is a few more posters to put on the list. Do you all not see it?

Wow!

Of course, and it is a waste of time to try to open up the closed-and-locked-right-as-a-drum. But I will if someone alerts me. But I'm not closely following this.
 
Upvote 0