Sola Scriptura - The Bible and Logic (contra Catholics)

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PeaceByJesus

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Your post above is a bit difficult to read because of the formatting. Could you please fix the formatting?
That is due to deficient software on the hosts part, which insists on placing font codes on some pasted text, and which i did not see since i needed to leave, but i just went and removed the tags.
You wrote that "we both both affirm Scripture as being the word of God", but from my perspective that is a false statement. From my perspective, you reject Sacred Scripture as the word of God, because you do not accept all of the books of Sacred Scripture as the word of God.
No, since we both agree that whatever is Scripture is the word of God, even though based upon the weight of evidence, Catholicism had added writings to that class which do not correspond to the most ancient canon, and which were rejected by notable Catholic scholars before and in Trent, thus Luther had freedom and scholarly Catholic support for his non-binding judgment on the canon, as well as for his inclusion of apocryphal books in his translation. Which is not the type of honest history you typically get from Catholics.
As I wrote before, I did not come here to attempt to convince you or anyone else of the truth of Sacred Tradition. I do not believe that I am capable of doing that, even if I tried. I came here to discuss issues in a civil manner.
Which "discussion" can hardly avoid debate, which you yourself have provoked. How can a position that holds that the RCC is uniquely the one true church, and that whatever declares is the word of God is indeed just that, and requires believe in this in order to be a faithful RC, and has posters attacking SS and rejecting such as Bible Christians, not be provocative of debate?
 
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Albion

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So your decision to follow or not follow what our Lord Jesus said, depends on the content of what Jesus said?
What are you talking about? All of a sudden, a purely hypothetical question about an unknown fact that may or may not be doctrinal has become a question of whether or not I decide to follow Jesus?!
:sigh:
 
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Afra

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What are you talking about? All of a sudden, a purely hypothetical question about an unknown fact that may or may not be doctrinal has become a question of whether or not I decide to follow Jesus?!
:sigh:
As far as I understood you, you indicated that you would need to know specifically what it is that our Lord Jesus said, before deciding whether or not a person would be bound to follow it. Did I misunderstand you?

If you do not believe that you would need to know specifically what it is that our Lord Jesus said, before deciding whether or not a person would be bound to follow it, then you are capable of answering my question.

Of course, if you simply do not want to answer it, please let me know and I will not ask you again.
 
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Afra

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I believe Albion's reference to sameness for the reasons he accepts books of Scripture is referring to the evidential basis for them doing so, while you are referring to the basis of authority.

Which brings us back to the unanswered questions asked of you. For no matter how many times you list "prayer, faith, and to a lesser extent, reason" as the basis for believing in Scripture, what a RC believes is that Sacred Scripture and and Sacred Tradition are what the Catholic Church teaches, and thus you have the premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility is the basis for your position on Oral T and the canon, etc.

And thus faith in the magisterial authority it must be dealt with. And thus you were faced with the problem of the Catholic denial that a soul "cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities," and thus in seeking to convert souls the appeal cannot be made to Scripture in order to provide support for submission to Rome, but the appeal is made to Scripture "merely as reliable historical sources, and abstract altogether from their inspiration," by which the convert (hopefully) will place submissive faith in the church of Rome as God's supreme instrument on earth to lead and guide him/her.

Meaning the seeker is unable to know the Bible is of God but he can know Rome is by appeal to Scripture merely as a reliable historical document. After which, as shown you, all the convert is to basically do is submit his judgment and conform his beliefs "to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.”

But which presents a problem when there is appeal to those who actually do believe in Scripture as the word of God but who do not see Catholic distinctives of oral traditions in manifest in the only wholly inspired record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the gospels) Scripture, but critical contrast with the NT church. Thus the often argument by RCs then we need to let Rome tell us what Scripture is since she was the magisterial steward of and authority on it. But which argument effectively invalidates the NT church.

And since what Catholicism says on the Lord Jesus, Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition is all authoritative and important, then it is important to know the scope and details of this, and thus you were faced with the answered questions regarding this.

A SS type Bible Christian is just as free, or typically less free too accept or reject any book as Sacred Scripture according to his own judgment as a typical Catholic is. Meaning since hardly any Protestant churches hold to a different one than the 66 book canon if much less in evangelical ones, then nonconformists on this will typically face rejection from his brethren and church, though this is less likely in your typical RC church, along with other variant beliefs. Liberals - which Trad. RCs consider even your pope to be - are far more likely to feel at home as a Catholic than in what RC apologists call evangelical, Bible Christians or Fundamentalists. By their own attestation.

I do not know if Ted Kennedy-type RCs hold to all 73 Catholic books as Scripture, but it is certain they do not hold them as overall authoritative for all their beliefs, but whom Rome manifestly considers members in life and in death anyway.

But the 66 book Prot. canon has been established as authoritative like as a smaller canon had been by the time of Christ, as seen by the abundant appeal to writings of it as authoritative.
Friend, I gave you my reasons. As I said before, you can choose to believe them, or you can choose to reject them. That is your choice. I am not going to attempt to convince you that my reasons are my real reasons, nor am I going to debate you based on your personal conclusions that my reasons are really based on a claim of papal infallibility. I have not made any arguments based on papal infallibility, and I have told you that I am not going to debate based on the premise that that is my reason. If you continue to pursue this, I will not engage you on it, as I have indicated before. So you might consider saving yourself some time before you write another long post on it.
 
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Afra

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And you believe in a book ith a a women, Sarah, who has lost seven husbands because Asmodeus, the demon of lust, and "the worst of demons," abducts and kills every man she marries on their wedding night before the marriage can be consummated!
I would be careful about disrespecting the inspired word of God.

You may consider the following information.

http://www.themichigancatholic.org/2015/03/an-odd-challenge-seven-marriages-to-seven-brothers/

Good evening. I am done for today.
 
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Afra

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That is due to deficient software on the hosts part, which insists on placing font codes on some pasted text, and which i did not see since i needed to leave, but i just went and removed the tags.

No, since we both agree that whatever is Scripture is the word of God, even though based upon the weight of evidence, Catholicism had added writings to that class which do not correspond to the most ancient canon, and which were rejected by notable Catholic scholars before and in Trent, thus Luther had freedom and scholarly Catholic support for his non-binding judgment on the canon, as well as for his inclusion of apocryphal books in his translation. Which is not the type of honest history you typically get from Catholics.

Which "discussion" can hardly avoid debate, which you yourself have provoked. How can a position that holds that the RCC is uniquely the one true church, and that whatever declares is the word of God is indeed just that, and requires believe in this in order to be a faithful RC, and has posters attacking SS and rejecting such as Bible Christians, not be provocative of debate?
It should not be provocative because our Lord Jesus gives us his peace.

Sacred Scripture has much to say about quarrel and debate. That is not to say that we should not try to resolve disagreements and find unity where possible, but to the extent possible I prefer to keep things to a civil discussion, especially when conversing with my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

I wonder what non-Christians must think when they see this forum and some of the nasty things written here and the uncivil conduct. I have been here perhaps one week and I have had to report about 20 times for various insults and personal attacks.

Of course, I could also do a better job of being civil myself.

Good evening.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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It should not be provocative because our Lord Jesus gives us his peace.
That the Lord Jesus giving us His peace means Truth claims should not provoke correction is itself a provocative claim, for the Lord Himself correct falsehoods, and commanded by His Spirit, "ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 3)
Sacred Scripture has much to say about quarrel and debate. That is not to say that we should not try to resolve disagreements and find unity where possible, but to the extent possible I prefer to keep things to a civil discussion, especially when conversing with my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
Truth is exclusive by nature, and thus "disputed he [Paul] in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. (Acts 17:17)
I wonder what non-Christians must think when they see this forum and some of the nasty things written here and the uncivil conduct. I have been here perhaps one week and I have had to report about 20 times for various insults and personal attacks.

Of course, I could also do a better job of being civil myself.

Good evening.
No, you did not have to report such, as I rarely do, and which stifles meaningful debate by making posters walk on eggshells or be on tranquilizers, or reduces the forum to those who do not have the heart to obey the command to provide rebuke (Proverbs 9:8; Proverbs 13:1; Proverbs 13:8 Proverbs 24:25; Proverbs 27:5; 8 Proverbs 19:25; Proverbs 25:12; Proverbs 29:1; Proverbs 30:6) and earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints, which is manifest in the only wholly inspired record of what the NT church believed.

I wonder what some non-Christians who take Truth claims seriously (including devout Muslims) must think when they see this forum and some of the posters acting too much like college "snowflakes" who find microaggressions in every closet? Reporting calling arguments preposterous, as substantiated, is itself over the top. They could wonder why all sort of strange beliefs can be expressed as Christian on a site called "Christian forums," while language and responses given by Godly men in Scripture to error can get one banned.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Friend, I gave you my reasons. As I said before, you can choose to believe them, or you can choose to reject them. That is your choice. I am not going to attempt to convince you that my reasons are my real reasons, nor am I going to debate you based on your personal conclusions that my reasons are really based on a claim of papal infallibility. I have not made any arguments based on papal infallibility, and I have told you that I am not going to debate based on the premise that that is my reason. If you continue to pursue this, I will not engage you on it, as I have indicated before. So you might consider saving yourself some time before you write another long post on it.
Afra,
Your stated reasons of "prayer, faith, and to a lesser extent, reason" means - unless purely blind faith or purely subjective feelings - that you have a basis for your faith, and things to reason about.

You are a Catholic, affirming Oral Tradition, and thus you must concur with her basis for the veracity of her claims if you will be faithful. Thus faith in the magisterial authority and consequently papal infallibility and its importance is an inescapable issue in any discussion and thus debate of much debt.

If you were not and are willing to deal with this and its ramifications then I would advise you not to affirm that Oral Tradition is the word of God and equal with Scripture, and even provide an example. And do not hold an umbrella up in a field during a thunderstorm.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I would be careful about disrespecting the inspired word of God.
Which is simply begging the question, assuming the very thing that needs to be established.
You may consider the following information.
http://www.themichigancatholic.org/2015/03/an-odd-challenge-seven-marriages-to-seven-brothers/
Good evening. I am done for today.
Which possible (only) allusioon to Tobit is simply a vain argument for the status of this obvious fable as Scripture, let alone literal, which your own NAB notes rejected.

For the fact is that even if that was a true story, referencing that does not make the book Scripture any more than Paul actually quoting a truth by a pagan poet made his work Scripture, or even an inspired prophecy recorded in the book of Enoch made that book Scripture. Only canonical books are actually called Scripture, or cited as authoritative by "it is written," or "God said," "Moses said," or the like. And we know things passed-down information is true such as Jannes and Jambres being the names of those who withstood Moses because wholly inspired writers of Scripture included them. (2 Timothy 3:8) But your popes and councils do not speak or write as wholly inspired of God.

Moreover, Michuta's attempted argument is a severe overreach, that "perhaps" the Sadducees were trying to get Jesus to say “Show me such a woman and I’ll answer your question" so that they would have said, “See, your book of Tobit said this happened. Jesus would then either be forced to dismisses Tobit (and possibly discredit himself in the eyes of His followers) or admit the problem is unanswerable and makes the resurrection seem absurd."

But it is this reasoning that is absurd, for it has the Sadducees possibly alluding to a book they rejected, and thus they would not want Christ to affirm, while He had no reason to affirm or deny this, as the question was posed as hypothetical in Mark 12 and current in Matthew 22 ("with us seven brethren), and it did not matter whether He affirmed the source or not, since the issue was "in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her." (Matthew 22:28) And presented no problem to answer.

And in so doing, the Lord said they were ignorant of "Scripture" and the power of God, with the Scripture at issue being what He quoted from, Exodus 3:6. Thus rather than this straining attempt to find some inference to the Lord affirming Tobit, instead it is only an affirmation of Exodus as being Scripture!
Good evening. I am done for today.
Thanks. Grace and peace thru Jesus the Lord.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Well, you were speaking of the reasons for you or the other person to come to Christ, but when you wrote this:

I thought that, while one or the other of these might lead to a person to Christ, the enduring issue with them concerns which, if either of them, is TRUE, is divine revelation, is sufficient for salvation, etc.

It's not simply whether one or both might be sufficiently convincing to lead to conversion. I suppose that some people have been led to Christ by the Book of Mormon or the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg or Ellen G. White, but that doesn't make those writings be God's revelation.
I hope that was not in orders of degrees. If so, it would be Ellen G. White (maybe), then if even possible, the Book of Mormon then the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg
 
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Afra

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That the Lord Jesus giving us His peace means Truth claims should not provoke correction is itself a provocative claim, for the Lord Himself correct falsehoods, and commanded by His Spirit, "ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 3)

Truth is exclusive by nature, and thus "disputed he [Paul] in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. (Acts 17:17)

No, you did not have to report such, as I rarely do, and which stifles meaningful debate by making posters walk on eggshells or be on tranquilizers, or reduces the forum to those who do not have the heart to obey the command to provide rebuke (Proverbs 9:8; Proverbs 13:1; Proverbs 13:8 Proverbs 24:25; Proverbs 27:5; 8 Proverbs 19:25; Proverbs 25:12; Proverbs 29:1; Proverbs 30:6) and earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints, which is manifest in the only wholly inspired record of what the NT church believed.

I wonder what some non-Christians who take Truth claims seriously (including devout Muslims) must think when they see this forum and some of the posters acting too much like college "snowflakes" who find microaggressions in every closet? Reporting calling arguments preposterous, as substantiated, is itself over the top. They could wonder why all sort of strange beliefs can be expressed as Christian on a site called "Christian forums," while language and responses given by Godly men in Scripture to error can get one banned.
None of those scripture verses supports your views. And you are not an apostle.

Afra,
Your stated reasons of "prayer, faith, and to a lesser extent, reason" means - unless purely blind faith or purely subjective feelings - that you have a basis for your faith, and things to reason about.

You are a Catholic, affirming Oral Tradition, and thus you must concur with her basis for the veracity of her claims if you will be faithful. Thus faith in the magisterial authority and consequently papal infallibility and its importance is an inescapable issue in any discussion and thus debate of much debt.

If you were not and are willing to deal with this and its ramifications then I would advise you not to affirm that Oral Tradition is the word of God and equal with Scripture, and even provide an example. And do not hold an umbrella up in a field during a thunderstorm.
You continue to waste your time with papal infallibility, which I have never raised here. And if you keep with the "snowflake" insults and so forth, I will continue to report you. Please be civil before you get suspended.

Which is simply begging the question, assuming the very thing that needs to be established.

Which possible (only) allusioon to Tobit is simply a vain argument for the status of this obvious fable as Scripture, let alone literal, which your own NAB notes rejected.

For the fact is that even if that was a true story, referencing that does not make the book Scripture any more than Paul actually quoting a truth by a pagan poet made his work Scripture, or even an inspired prophecy recorded in the book of Enoch made that book Scripture. Only canonical books are actually called Scripture, or cited as authoritative by "it is written," or "God said," "Moses said," or the like. And we know things passed-down information is true such as Jannes and Jambres being the names of those who withstood Moses because wholly inspired writers of Scripture included them. (2 Timothy 3:8) But your popes and councils do not speak or write as wholly inspired of God.

Moreover, Michuta's attempted argument is a severe overreach, that "perhaps" the Sadducees were trying to get Jesus to say “Show me such a woman and I’ll answer your question" so that they would have said, “See, your book of Tobit said this happened. Jesus would then either be forced to dismisses Tobit (and possibly discredit himself in the eyes of His followers) or admit the problem is unanswerable and makes the resurrection seem absurd."

But it is this reasoning that is absurd, for it has the Sadducees possibly alluding to a book they rejected, and thus they would not want Christ to affirm, while He had no reason to affirm or deny this, as the question was posed as hypothetical in Mark 12 and current in Matthew 22 ("with us seven brethren), and it did not matter whether He affirmed the source or not, since the issue was "in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her." (Matthew 22:28) And presented no problem to answer.

And in so doing, the Lord said they were ignorant of "Scripture" and the power of God, with the Scripture at issue being what He quoted from, Exodus 3:6. Thus rather than this straining attempt to find some inference to the Lord affirming Tobit, instead it is only an affirmation of Exodus as being Scripture!

Thanks. Grace and peace thru Jesus the Lord.
Why are you having a debate with an article? Good night.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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PeaceByJesus said:
That the Lord Jesus giving us His peace means Truth claims should not provoke correction is itself a provocative claim, for the Lord Himself correct falsehoods, and commanded by His Spirit, "ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 3)

None of those scripture verses supports your views. And you are not an apostle.
"Support my views?" Yes they do, with the context being about beliefs being provocative by nature, and that rebuke and reproof has its place, the texts i invoked certainly support that - as does your own disputation of them.
You continue to waste your time with papal infallibility, which I have never raised here.
Wrong again, for you did introduce this as showed, and despite trying to isolate this, as logically showed, for a faithful RC believing in Oral Tradition is incontrovertibly linked to the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, which includes and flows from the pope.

I wonder what some non-Christians who take Truth claims seriously (including devout Muslims) must think when they see this forum and some of the posters acting too much like college "snowflakes" who find microaggressions in every closet?

And if you keep with the "snowflake" insults and so forth, I will continue to report you. Please be civil before you get suspended.
If this "shoe" fits you, then I consider it best to try to no longer attempt to engage in substantive exchange with you, seeing you have only strengthened the case against SE and being a RC.
Why are you having a debate with an article? Good night.
Why? Because you introduce it as a polemic. Why do you post provocative statements or link to such material and then complain when they are challenged? A forum is not a place where you just post beliefs, but a place for open discussion and debate.

So long.
 
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Afra

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PeaceByJesus said:
That the Lord Jesus giving us His peace means Truth claims should not provoke correction is itself a provocative claim, for the Lord Himself correct falsehoods, and commanded by His Spirit, "ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 3)


"Support my views?" Yes they do, with the context being about beliefs being provocative by nature, and that rebuke and reproof has its place, the texts i invoked certainly support that - as does your own disputation of them.

Wrong again, for you did introduce this as showed, and despite trying to isolate this, as logically showed, for a faithful RC believing in Oral Tradition is incontrovertibly linked to the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, which includes and flows from the pope.

I wonder what some non-Christians who take Truth claims seriously (including devout Muslims) must think when they see this forum and some of the posters acting too much like college "snowflakes" who find microaggressions in every closet?


If this "shoe" fits you, then I consider it best to try to no longer attempt to engage in substantive exchange with you, seeing you have only strengthened the case against SE and being a RC.

Why? Because you introduce it as a polemic. Why do you post provocative statements or link to such material and then complain when they are challenged? A forum is not a place where you just post beliefs, but a place for open discussion and debate.

So long.
I asked you why you were having a debate with an article. You answered my question. Thank you.

If you desire to debate papal infallibility you are certainly welcome to create a thread on it. I have stated numerous times that I will not debate papal infallibility in this thread, and I have not based a single argument on papal infallibility, no matter how many times you argue that the issue is “incontrovertibly linked”. Again, you are just wasting your time.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I asked you why you were having a debate with an article. You answered my question. Thank you.

If you desire to debate papal infallibility you are certainly welcome to create a thread on it. I have stated numerous times that I will not debate papal infallibility in this thread, and I have not based a single argument on papal infallibility, no matter how many times you argue that the issue is “incontrovertibly linked”.
Which simply means that you will not deal with what is necessary if you would defend oral tradition, which you provocatively posted as a member of an elitist self-proclaimed "one true church," which itself invites challenge. You thus entered into a debate but when challenged refuse to deal with the deeper issues which logically follow. Meaning you have no real argument, and hardly warrant more time and energy seeking to pursue this with you, besides censoring me for offending you by calling some of your arguments what they are.
Again, you are just wasting your time.
Well, I already tried to say "so long." Yet may God peradventure grant you "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." (2 Timothy 2:25)
 
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Afra

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Which simply means that you will not deal with what is necessary if you would defend oral tradition, which you provocatively posted as a member of an elitist self-proclaimed "one true church," which itself invites challenge. You thus entered into a debate but when challenged refuse to deal with the deeper issues which logically follow. Meaning you have no real argument, and hardly warrant more time and energy seeking to pursue this with you, besides censoring me for offending you by calling some of your arguments what they are.

Well, I already tried to say "so long." Yet may God peradventure grant you "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." (2 Timothy 2:25)
Reported for goading. There is no need to resort to insults. Please be civil.
 
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This thread is closed. There is too much flaming and disruptive behavior. Insulting each other and threatening to report or talking about reporting is not okay.

 
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