Problems in Medieval Catholicism

fat wee robin

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None of those verses indicate justification is a process.
For me, it is, as I observe long term what truly makes a Christian . It is a process ,and when it seems not to be , it is only ,that the 'process ' was already happening albeit , hidden from view until it came to fruition visibly .
 
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fat wee robin

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I think the Christian Church went through a lot of good changes over the past 500 years, but the women taking over WASN'T one of the good parts. One of the last things my favorite great grandmother said to me before she died was, "What's wrong with the world today is that the women have taken over." And I believed her. Women are actively running young men out of church, and it will probably take divine intervention to stop them.
I won't tell you what I think of this as it would not be posted .However I will say that you should take it up with Jesus as he loved the women and it was mostly to the men he had very harsh words .Today it is men who still commit 90% of murders, crimes etc , so on that too ,you are completely off the wall as well .
 
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fat wee robin

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I think the Christian Church went through a lot of good changes over the past 500 years, but the women taking over WASN'T one of the good parts. One of the last things my favorite great grandmother said to me before she died was, "What's wrong with the world today is that the women have taken over." And I believed her. Women are actively running young men out of church, and it will probably take divine intervention to stop them.
Of course you belong to a Church which in now in eternal rebellion ,but that is your choice . Perhaps having women run your Church is 'karma ' for the 'individualist Pride ',which is the bain of most protestant dénominations .
 
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Halbhh

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I doubt from what you say that you know or have lived in a country where the RCC religion is dominant .There is a sense of peace in the society itself ,and even in the schools which you do not get in protestant ones or in their schools . In France the people who are free to belong to any religion since the revolution choose to still be Catholic while not being exactly perfectly holy .I have watched Lutheran ,evangelical and other services and none of them have that certain peace and goodness which can be found in most churches .I believe the revolution was good for French catholicism ,as it less arrogant , more listening ,and more intellectual than the Irish version , as a result of being persecuted , and forced to face up to it's shortcomings .
We moved several times during my childhood, and my mother was not committed to any particular denomination, so we attended many. Having attended services in 8 denominations where I've been in at least 3 services minimum, including the above you listed at at least 5 services each, I can say no two local churches been of exactly the same atmosphere.

Yes, the 5 Catholic masses I've been in were fairly peaceful but not noticeably or significantly more so than the Methodist or Lutheran or certain other local instances of some other denominations. So, perhaps you may be reporting local conditions in certain local churches, or possibly comfort. To me, each local church is unique. Unsurprisingly perhaps, the most rewarding services in my life have occured in those few churches I've attended at least 100 times.

One good effect of not being allied to any one denomination, nor feeling I need to say anything about any one denomination, I noticed that churches are also all very alike, except only the most unusual kinds I happened to have attended (I've been in 3 Quaker services, and that's truly unlike most churches).

So, noticing each local congregation has a unique atmosphere, I also have noticed the profound similarity in most Catholic, Lutheran, and Church of Christ services, and also not that far different were the Methodist and Baptist services also. (perhaps this perception is aided by early attendance of many different churches, so that I began to understand when I was hearing the same thing in different wordings or styles) Even though I'm aware many think these various are so different, they do not feel so different in terms of goodness, if you compare good instances of each. The reality I've experienced is that men's distinctions don't block God at all. He works right past the mere mistakes of any one church, and can minister to His anywhere at anytime, without barrier.
 
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fhansen

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I'd agree that the RCC was way too cozy with temporal powers; that seemed like a good idea at the time I'm sure; it facilitated the spreading of the gospel and it was considered that the kingdom of God might even be achievable on earth, whether per millenarianism or by any other form that such a concept might take shape in. Eastern churches alike, along with some Protestant churches later, would participate in this same practice. But there was a lesson to be learned, religion and secular government make strange bedfellows-abuses and temptations to compromise the faith arise easily, and secular power simply does not belong in the hands of the church, even if it's to be enforced by civil authorities.

There were other abuses as well; the Church is always in need of reform, but I don't believe that RCC theology was the problem but rather, if anything, the ignoring of her teachings by leaders, etc, was the cause of abuse. Either way bad apples, with bad practices, have and will bring slander to the church. And the church is also always in need of clarifying and teaching the faith better, and with more fervency.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Was the Reformation necessary? You bet it was. Here's a very brief review of some problems in Medieval Catholicism which to some degree still exist in the RCC today:

This post proves two sayings:

A. Most Protestants know very little about Church history, but have definite ideas about it.

B. Very few people actually hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they THINK is the Catholic Church, and if she was what these millions hate, Catholics would hate it, too. (Attributed to Fulton Sheen)

The importance of the Sacraments was exalted over the importance of preaching God's word. The seven sacraments (so called) were considered to be the arteries of the body of Christ and the way that the faithful would receive God's grace. The problem is that the sacraments were mechanical. Participants need not understand them, they need only participate in them in order to receive grace. This leads to our next problem.
 The church assumed that parishioners were mostly incapable of understanding the Christian faith.

We KNOW that God’s grace is communicated through the Sacraments. During his periods of doubt, Luther would say to himself, “I have been baptized.” (In other words, he was counting on his RC Baptism as a way that God's grace could enter his life.)

This is not to say that His grace is not communicated in other ways.

And frankly, I consider NOTHING more mechanical than the idea that a person can saved by merely repeating a set “sinner’s prayer” provided by someone else. The Protestant sacramental formula, working ex opere operato.

Therefore Christian faith must be mechanical. The Bible was not translated into the common language. Mass was said in Latin. Parishioners understood not a word. And often times clergy did not even understand what they were saying. What mattered was not understanding. The unwashed masses were probably incapable of understanding. What mattered was the rituals themselves. Hence an exalted view of the sacraments.


There are several errors here. First off, the poster has no PROOF about what he says about what he claims the Church assumed. Therefore it follows that his conclusion is questionable.

It’s a simple historical and linguistic fact that the vernaculars of Western Europe simply were not developed enough to translate the Scriptures or services into them until just before the Reformation, when Gutenburg began printing Bibles. (A parallel example in modern times can be seen in the Slavic communities of Eastern Europe. The written language was Church Slavonic, because the various village dialects had not coalesced and stabilized until the middle of the 19th century.)

Latin began to be used liturgically when it was a commonly understood language in Western Europe. People are still rather set in the language they wish to hear in church; why else the arguments over contemporary language services, hymns, and versions of the Bible.

Justification was thought to be a process, not a definitive act of God. Justification was seen as God infusing his righteousness into us and slowly making us more righteous whereby we would eventually become totally justified and thus merit salvation. The problem with this is that it leads to the natural question - "have I become righteous enough to merit salvation?" Those who took this most seriously would obsess themselves with a fearful and minute examination of conscience. This later took the form of confession of sins to a priest along with the priest questioning the parishioner to help them examine their conscience and expose all kinds of sin. But in this system there is never any rest or peace because our sin is unfathomable.

Imputed righteousness, a doctrine dear to protestants, simply does not hold up to the light of reason. In Luther’s delicate phrase, it is as if a pile of dung were covered with snow. In other words, the person’s basic nastiness is left untouched. As St. Paul said, “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” (2 Cor 3:18)

Speak for yourself, but I feel great peace after auricular confession.

So, in short, the Church took the place of God. Only she could dispense God's grace through her acts (sacraments). She robbed God's people of God's word by effectively denying them the Bible (Latin Mass, no common translations). She made the people of God enslaved to clergy in order to gain a faulty assurance of their own salvation.

Anyone who really knows Church history knows that this is false. This is proven by the simple fact that the Reformation stopped short at the borders of Orthodox countries.

Later, this poster said we need to use our intellect to be saved. This is nothing less than the heresy of Gnosticism.

And a question, what about the fifty year old man in a wheelchair that has the mental capacity of a three year old who makes an emotional response that he doesn't understand..Is he saved?
 
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Monk Brendan

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Honestly, and this is just opinion of course, I suspect if He were to walk into a RC mass, saw all the gold, marble, statues, icons, pomp and ceremony, he’s be looking for some cords to fashion a whip.

Sorry, Phil, but but take a look in the OT when God was talking about His Tent, and then His Temple There is all sorts of gold, lavish design, icons, pomp and ceremony. When Jesus made that whip, he made it to clean out the trash from the sellers in the outer courts.
 
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Tree of Life

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This post proves two sayings:

A. Most Protestants know very little about Church history, but have definite ideas about it.

This is true of most Catholics as well. Most people know very little about church history. I could get snarky here and say that Protestants at least know Scripture (whereas most Catholics do not), but I will restrain myself.

We KNOW that God’s grace is communicated through the Sacraments. During his periods of doubt, Luther would say to himself, “I have been baptized.” (In other words, he was counting on his RC Baptism as a way that God's grace could enter his life.)

Actually we don't know this. We know that God's grace is communicated through the preaching of the gospel and faith in the gospel because the Bible says this (Romans 10:17). But nowhere does Scripture say that God's grace is communicated through the sacraments ex opera operato. This doctrine can only be found in Catholic teaching - not in Scripture.

And frankly, I consider NOTHING more mechanical than the idea that a person can saved by merely repeating a set “sinner’s prayer” provided by someone else. The Protestant sacramental formula, working ex opere operato.

I don't believe that a simple recitation of the sinners prayer saves anyone. Only genuine repentance and faith in Jesus Christ truly saves.

There are several errors here. First off, the poster has no PROOF about what he says about what he claims the Church assumed. Therefore it follows that his conclusion is questionable.

The proof is in the pudding. Just look at the overwhelming testimony of the Reformers from John Wycliffe to John Calvin. Wycliffe was declared a heretic for preaching in English and translating the Bible into English. So...

Imputed righteousness, a doctrine dear to protestants, simply does not hold up to the light of reason. In Luther’s delicate phrase, it is as if a pile of dung were covered with snow. In other words, the person’s basic nastiness is left untouched. As St. Paul said, “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” (2 Cor 3:18)

It may offend your notion of reason but it is thoroughly biblical. When God justifies a person he also regenerates them and also begins to sanctify them. But justification and sanctification as very different works of God which need to be distinguished. They must be distinguished because they are different things. But they always exist together in the life of a person who is being saved by God.

Later, this poster said we need to use our intellect to be saved. This is nothing less than the heresy of Gnosticism.

It's actually the teaching of Scripture. Again Romans 10:14. Faith comes through hearing and understanding. What's gnostic about that?

And a question, what about the fifty year old man in a wheelchair that has the mental capacity of a three year old who makes an emotional response that he doesn't understand..Is he saved?

There are exceptions, as I've mentioned. But this doesn't overturn the clear testimony of Scripture for unexceptional cases.
 
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Monk Brendan

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an elect infant

An ELECT infant? How do you know that in a pair of twins one is Elect, and one is the future Stalin? Come on, that's ridiculous! All of humanity is elect, not just one in ten, or one hundred or one million.
 
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Tree of Life

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An ELECT infant? How do you know that in a pair of twins one is Elect, and one is the future Stalin? Come on, that's ridiculous! All of humanity is elect, not just one in ten, or one hundred or one million.

Not according to Scripture. We don't know who is elect and who is not. Only God knows this. Your own church teaches that "the elect" are those who are finally saved. So not only do you deny Scripture when you deny the doctrine of election. You also deny official doctrine of the RCC.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Protestants at least know Scripture (whereas most Catholics do not), but I will restrain myself.

Okay, here is Scripture to back up Sacraments

The seven sacraments celebrated by Catholics all have their roots in scripture, although some are featured more prominently than others. There are many references to baptism, of course, beginning with Jesus’ baptism by John. The eucharist was instituted by Jesus at the Last Supper (Matthew 26:26-29). Confirmation, though not specifically named in the Bible, is traced back to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Jesus at his baptism and on his followers after Jesus’ resurrection (see John 20:22 and Acts 2:1-4). The sacrament of reconciliation, while not practiced in the same way in biblical times as we know it now, is rooted in Jesus’ ministry of forgiving sins and proclaiming salvation to the lost. After his resurrection, he breathed on the disciples, imparting them with the Holy Spirit and stating, “if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them” (John 20:23). The sacrament of the anointing of the sick can be traced to the New Testament Letter of James (5:14): “Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.”

Finally, the two sacraments of vocation — marriage and holy orders — derive from scripture, although the format of the liturgical celebrations have obviously evolved through the centuries. The Bible begins with the creation of man and woman in the image and likeness of God and very soon refers to them becoming “one flesh” (Genesis 1-2). Countless other passages refer to the covenant between married spouses, and Jesus himself defended the nature of marriage when he declared, “What God has joined together, let no one separate” (Matthew 19:6). Holy orders take shape from Jesus’ appointment of the apostles to extend his ministry of teaching, healing, and proclaiming salvation (Matthew 10:1-8). Later, those apostles prayed and laid their hands on other “men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom” to share in the ministry (Acts 6:3-6). Thus the succession of the apostles began, and with it the tradition of a pope or bishop laying hands on a man to ordain him as a bishop, priest, or deacon.(Busted Halo)
 
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BNR32FAN

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Nothing in particular. Just don't make it binding on Christian consciences.

In general, the Reformed project has failed to create a "godly" society. Perhaps because they ignore their own principle of total depravity.

What religion has been successful in creating a “Godly” society? I can’t think of any.
 
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Monk Brendan

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It may offend your notion of reason but it is thoroughly biblical. When God justifies a person who also regenerates them and also begins to sanctify them. But justification and sanctification as very different works of God which need to be distinguished. They must be distinguished because they are different things. But they always exist together in the life of a person who is being saved by God.

I can see that (as with most Puritans,) you don't want to listen, but just want to shout your own OPINION. Have fun, I won't reply again.
 
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Halbhh

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Sorry, Phil, but but take a look in the OT when God was talking about His Tent, and then His Temple There is all sorts of gold, lavish design, icons, pomp and ceremony. When Jesus made that whip, he made it to clean out the trash from the sellers in the outer courts.

I'm comfortable with gold used to show respect to God, of course as charity is happening also. But a basic concern many have from the outside, being unsure, is whether it happens any may be elevating men, glorifying men. (considering such as John 5:44 ) If the Bishop or Cardinal can kneel and wash someone's feet, and truly humble himself, sincerely, at such moments, this can help greatly. I remember Francis met individual inmates in a prison, shook hands with them. "Pope Francis hugged and shook hands with prisoners at a correctional facility in Philadelphia" (NBC) This is a very good moment for all. One of the reasons we not raised Catholic are able to consider Francis a good example (in the sense Paul wrote of) is exactly because not only can we hear him doing good paraphrases of Christ's words, but also can see various things he has done that are clearly humble. Might it help if special honorifics of various church offices (positions) were...tempered? Instantly, any honorifics that seem to elevate a servant seem wrong to me. We can know what Christ said on this in the gospel accounts, which of course cannot be put aside ever.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Okay, here is Scripture to back up Sacraments

The seven sacraments celebrated by Catholics all have their roots in scripture, although some are featured more prominently than others. There are many references to baptism, of course, beginning with Jesus’ baptism by John. The eucharist was instituted by Jesus at the Last Supper (Matthew 26:26-29). Confirmation, though not specifically named in the Bible, is traced back to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Jesus at his baptism and on his followers after Jesus’ resurrection (see John 20:22 and Acts 2:1-4). The sacrament of reconciliation, while not practiced in the same way in biblical times as we know it now, is rooted in Jesus’ ministry of forgiving sins and proclaiming salvation to the lost. After his resurrection, he breathed on the disciples, imparting them with the Holy Spirit and stating, “if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them” (John 20:23). The sacrament of the anointing of the sick can be traced to the New Testament Letter of James (5:14): “Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.”

Finally, the two sacraments of vocation — marriage and holy orders — derive from scripture, although the format of the liturgical celebrations have obviously evolved through the centuries. The Bible begins with the creation of man and woman in the image and likeness of God and very soon refers to them becoming “one flesh” (Genesis 1-2). Countless other passages refer to the covenant between married spouses, and Jesus himself defended the nature of marriage when he declared, “What God has joined together, let no one separate” (Matthew 19:6). Holy orders take shape from Jesus’ appointment of the apostles to extend his ministry of teaching, healing, and proclaiming salvation (Matthew 10:1-8). Later, those apostles prayed and laid their hands on other “men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom” to share in the ministry (Acts 6:3-6). Thus the succession of the apostles began, and with it the tradition of a pope or bishop laying hands on a man to ordain him as a bishop, priest, or deacon.(Busted Halo)

Apostolic succession failed for 686 years during the inquisitions.
 
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Monk Brendan

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If the Bishop or Cardinal can kneel and wash someone's feet, and truly humble himself, sincerely, at such moments, this can help greatly.

I have often (until I got too old to crawl on my hands and knees) washed the feet, and tried to issue a wise word here or there in the past.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Apostolic succession failed for 686 years during the inquisitions.

Historic, documented PROOF, please.

And the Inquisition didn't last that long.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Historic, documented PROOF, please.

And the Inquisition didn't last that long.

Both Britanica and Wikipedia agree that the inquisitions began in 1184AD and continued until 1870AD. I imagine you were referring to just the Spanish Inquisition but the inquisitions actually took place in Portugal, France, Spain, Africa, North America, South America, and parts of Asia.

Inquisition | Roman Catholicism


Inquisition - Wikipedia
 
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Halbhh

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Matthew 18:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them...god does not need pomp, dress up clothes, all he needs is 2 or more gathered in his name and he is there. You can congregate in a garbage dumb but as long as there are two or more he is there. All the pomp is mans ego nothing more.

Pomp can be ego, or it can be meant to honor God, so you have to look closer, which is hard to do from the outside. But the key point that any 2 gathered in His name, there He will be with them, that's definitive and conclusive, by itself, of what a church is essentially (whether 2, 3 or 2,000). If whatever church building burns down tomorrow, it has zero effect on the Body of Christ in any essential way. A Christian's relationship with Christ is never clothing or office or circumstance, and not what other of us think of him/her in any way.
 
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Okay, here is Scripture to back up Sacraments

This "Scriptural support" for the seven (so called) sacraments reminds me of those movies which claim to be loosely based on true events. The seven (so called) sacraments may be in some way inspired by Scripture. But they are not supported or established by Scripture.
 
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