COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

Bob S said:

I submit to all who tell us that we must obey the law given to Israel at Sinai that you must consider also the book of the law.

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Hi again Bob, No one is telling you that you must be saved by keeping laws.

We are ONLY SAVED BY GRACE through FAITH and NOT OF OURSELVES it is a GIFT of God and NOT of WORKS lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8)

However, if your FAITH does not have the FRUIT of OBEDIENCE to God's WORD then you are still in your SINS because you have rejected the GIFT of God's dear son (Romans 6:23). If your tree has no FRUIT then it is cast down and thrown into the fire (James 2:18-20; 26; Hebrews 10:26-27; Matt 7:12-23)

WHAT IS GRACE FOR?

Romans 1
5, By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name.

Romans 6
1, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. 2, How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

DOES FAITH ABOLISH GOD'S LAW?

Romans 3
31, Do we then ABOLISH THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW

Bob S said:

Jesus plainly said in Matt 5 that not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law, (that was given at Sinai 613 commands), until all is completed finished or fulfilled ( pick which one you want).

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Not really Bob, where does it say 613 in Matthew 5? Simple fact it does not. Many of the Mosaic laws for remission of sin written in the book of the Covenant of the OLD COVENANT were fulfilled in Christ and point to God's plan of salvation for sinful man. This is why for example we no longer offer animal sacrifices for sin.

Bob S said:

If indeed it is all fulfilled then Jesus has given us the go ahead and accept the new and better covenant that is not like the covenant given at Sinai.

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Indeed. Jesus has fogiven us of our sins through his sacrifice of death for our sins

Bob S said:

If Jesus failed to do all He came to do then all of the law is still binding on Israel.

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Jesus was a perfect sacrifice and knew no sin. God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Gentiles are now grafted in to Gods' Israel. If you are not a part of God's Israel you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT.

Bob S said:

Paul agrees that Jesus indeed fulfilled all the law and it is not binding on anyone.

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If you have been forgiven then you are no longer "UNDER THE LAW" to be "UNDER THE LAW" means to be condemned by the law for breaking it.

Romans 3
19, Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

If you are still in your SINS then you are still "UNDER THE LAW" and unless your seek Jesus in FORGIVENESS the wages of SIN is death because you have rejected the GIFT of God's dear son (Romans 6:23)

Bob, you seem to be mixed up in your understanding of the scriptures. What we are talking about here is SIN (breaking God's LAW). Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

Bob S said:

I thought that you belong to the Seventh-day Adventist church. If I am wrong I am sorry, if you do then there was someone that is very much revered and SDAs even have to, before baptism, agree to the 28 fundamental doctrines of the church. One says you have to believe in Ellen White as the inspired prophet. Am I wrong???

The prophet wrote the following which if you are SDA you have to believe. "It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4}
Now maybe you would like to change your answer to me?


So far so good.


Now comes the big "however". Is Jesus God LGW? Did Jesus tell us that He kept His Father's commands which was the Sinai covenant? Did He then tell us that we are to keep His commands? What were the commands Jesus asks us to keep LGW? If Jesus kept the Sinai covenant wouldn't He tell us to keep it too if as you tell us we are to keep it? You really confuse me when I read your words and then read what the Bible says. Somehow you all don't jive.


I knew when I wrote that that you would question it. Might I ask you where in all the scriptures you quote is the 10 before the word commandments? I can tell you that Jesus kept the command from the book of the law to keep the Passover. According to the Jews Law meant 613 commands given at Sinai. Was Jesus a Jew?

I never was under the law and still am not. Only Israelites were under the law.


Again, I was never under the law given to Israel at Sinai. Why do you try to put me under a law that God never ever required me to observe. That does not make any sense. If you want to be under the law then go right ahead, but don't tell me that I was or am under it.


Well, what you determine to be sin and what the scripture says is sin doesn't jive as I have proven over and over. I have never been told I have to observe the law given only to Israel. Where you get that Idea that I am subject to those laws now???
You tell me that I am mixed up??? All I can do is lead you to the Living Water, I cannot make you drink of It.
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God's 10 commandments given to only Israel ended at Calvary along with the other 603 commands. Those laws were for Israel and how you are make them laws for gentiles is beyond me. You can quote your choice scripture all day and I still tell you I have not been asked to observe the commands given to Israel.


No one that I know of worships Sunday. We worship Jesus on Sunday and the remainder of the week. Since there is nothing said in the new covenant about keeping days we have a choice as to when we collectively come together. We break no command because there is no command. The command you refer to was given to Israel only and is now defunct as per 2Cor3:7-11. They were temporary. Temporary because the Jews broke the covenant and the covenant was an "if" covenant. To bad because the Jews could have kept being the chosen.


Strawman argument. 2Cor 3:7-11 tells us the Sabbath is abolished and Col 2:17 tells us: 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. The Sabbath is a mere shadow. I don't know how one would worship a shadow. Shadows disappear when the light is turned off. Shadows are nothing, you cannot hold a shadow, a shadow is weightless. Worshipping shadows is a hopeless endeavor.

If there is no law there is no sin. There is no law, so making a tradition couldn't be a sin. You can only assume there is a law just like you assume there is a 10 before commandments.

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Hello Bob,

You have only shared your words in this post of yours over God's Word with a lot of repitition of what you have posted earlier. You have not addressed any of the posts I have sent you or the scriptures in these posts that disagree with your interpretation of God's Word.

Could I suggest that you answer the posts and the scriptures in them that disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures before proceeding?

Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW him who calls us in LOVE to LOVE another.

I think it is ok to have an opinion about something, but if your opinion cannot be supported by the scriptures then who should you believe? Should we follow the traditions and teachings of men over the Word of God?

The religious teachers in the days of Jesus did this with Jesus over the 5th commandment and Jesus said to these people, those who do who break God's Commandments by following the teachings and traditions of men are not following God.

Matthew 15
3, But he answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4, For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
5, But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me;
6, And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7, You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8, This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9, But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So if we break God's Commandments by following man made traditions, in the eyes of Jesus you are not following God.

Our opinions matter, but if they go against the Word of God then I think this can be a sign to us that something is wrong. Some do this out of ignorance and do not know any better. Some choose to follow their own ways over God's ways.

Who should we believe? Should we follow our traditions and opinions over God's Word?

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yes, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged.

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

Bob S said:

Hi LGW, first of all you need to give me an honest answer to what transitory means. Why did Paul write that the 10 commandments were transitory? You have not in the least cleared that matter.

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No worries Bob, I thought this was clear already from the scriptures provided earlier. Let's take a look at it again from a different angle.

2 Cor 3
1, Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2, You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3, Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.
4, And such trust have we through Christ toward God:
5, Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6, Who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
7, But if the ministry of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8, How shall not the ministry of the Spirit be more glorious?
9, For if the ministry of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness exceed in glory.
10, For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels.

Now take a look at v3 highlighted in RED which is the CONTEXT or what follows.

Now take a look at the NEW COVENANT promise from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and repeated by the same same author as Corinthians in Hebrews 8:10-12 and 10:16-17

Hebrews 8
10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11, And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12, For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

This is the part that is transitory as you say. 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about the NEW COVENANT of God's LAW written on the heart through LOVE by His Spirit. The transitory is from the tables of stone to the fleshly tables of the heart (2 Cor 3:3; Hebrews 8:10)

Let's look at the scriptures laid out together side by side...

2 Cor 3:3, Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.

links to...

Hebrews 8
10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

links to...

Romans 13
8, Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.
9, For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
10, Love works no ill to his neighbor: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

The transitory is God's LAW written on stone to the fleshly tables of the heart through FAITH that works by LOVE by God's Spirit (Romans 8:1-4)

Bob S said:

You have not cleared Jesus words that He kept the law of the Father to Israel and that we are to keep the laws He gave to us. You have not cleared 1Jn3:19-23 where John tell us we are in the truth when we believe in Jesus and love others as He loves us.

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I never disagreed that Jesus did not fulfill or obey God's LAW.

1 John 3:23

Here you leave out CONTEXT. Now that we have a definition of what SIN is from Paul and James (Breaking God's LAW) let's have a look at the CONTEXT you leave out in order to come up with your interpretation...

THE CONTEXT of 1 John 3 is those who SIN (BREAK GOD'S COMMANDMENTS) and those who do not...

1 JOHN 3
3, And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
4, Whoever COMMITS SIN TRANSGRESSES ALSO THE LAW: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW
5, And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6, WHOEVER ABIDES IN HIM SINS NOT: whoever SINS HAS NOT SEEN HIM, NEITHER KNOWS HIM.

Here you have that reference John is talking about earlier repeated in emphasis in 1 John 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if w ekeep his commandments. [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

7, Little children, LET KNOW ONE DECEIVE YOU: he that DOES RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, even as he is righteous.

What is righteousness? PS 119:172 My tongue shall speak of your word: for all your commandments are righteousness.Yep we are definately talking about God's 10 Commandments. SIN is breaking God's Commandments (1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; James 2:8-11; Romans 3:20)and RIGHTESOUNESS is OBEDIENCE to God's Commandments.

8, HE THAT COMMITS SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Seems like John is speaking pretty plain language here. If you are sining (breaking God's Commandments) then you do not know God and you are of the Devil

9, WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Seems John is telling us the reason why Jesus says. Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).Those who practice SIN will NOT enter into God's KINGDOM

10, IN THIS THE CHILDREN OF GOD ARE MANIFEST AND THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

IN THIS to SIN or NOT to SIN are the children of God and the Children of the devil manifest;

No need to be in confusion here. God's Word makes it very clear who God's saints are.

Revelation 12: [17], And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14: [12] HERE IS THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and the faith of Jesus. Yep if you are still in your SINS you are not on God's side or do you know him.

11, For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12, Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And why slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13, Marvel not, my brothers, if the world hate you.
14, We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He that loves not his brother stays in death.
15, Whoever hates his brother is a MURDERER: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

To put it all to rest now, John's now talking about the 6th Commandment of the 10 Commandments. This is the CONTEXT of 1 John 3:23 that you say is NOT talking about God's 10 Commandments. It seems God's Word disagrees with you.

Indeed the CONTEXT is about those who practice SIN which is what you follow in order to practice your traditions that break the Commandments of God. As mentioned from the very start; SIN will keep all those who practice it OUT of God's KINGDOM.

Bob S said:

You may think I might fall for your non answers, but that will not happen. I have been around a long time and your explanations have not held water.

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Bob you have only been provided God’s Word. They are God’s WORDS not mine. You are free to BELIEVE of not BELIEVE God’s WORD. UNBELIEVERS however have NO part in God’s KINGDOM and it is the WORD of GOD that will judge us all in the last days (John 12:47-48)

Bob S said:

You have skirted around ever answering Paul's telling us that we are not under the law in Gal 3 and I have not presented many more verses that tell us we are not under the ritual commands of the old history only old covenant.

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Well that is not true Bob. As shown through the scriptures Paul is talking about not being under the penalty of the LAW through FAITH in Christ after REPENTANCE and FAITH has come to the repentant sinner. Theses scriptures are not saying God's LAW (10 Commandments) have been ABOLISHED as you interpret it. Scriptures already been provided in the other thread.

Bob S said:

You claim that I just use the same old words over and over. Well, yes I have and it is because you have not given me real answers. You have an agenda to try to convince what you throw out at people will stick, the problem is what you throw out just slides off because it all can be and is refuted. I really do not believe that you care that we too have studied God's Word and have concluded that your belief system is not what God wants us to believe. I know you have good intentions and believe what you do, but you need to get serious when we challenge those beliefs and give us straight answers.

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That is not true Bob. I have provided you with God’s Word. You have chosen not to BELIEVE it. This is your choice. I do not judge you. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgement day. All of us will be judged by God’s Word and we should work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Those who continue in KNOWN UNREPETANT SIN and those who reject God’s WORD will not enter the KINGDOM of heaven. If you do not BELIEVE the scriptures I post here it is ok I do not judge you as you are free to believe and do as you wish. Your salvation as well as mine is between ourselves and God. No point in going around in a circle saying the same things over and over here. Maybe we should agree to disagree and remain friend or discuss the OP.

My ONLY agenda is to point all to the Word of God because it is ONLY in the WORD of GOD that anyone can find Jesus who is the WORD. The Words that I speak unto you are not my words but the words of Him who sends me. The Words that I speak unto you they are Spirit and they are life and we are to LIVE by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Many are called by few are chosen because narrow and dark is the way and few there be that find it. It is hard to see when the road is dark and narrow when your lamp goes out. Do you know these scriptures Bob?

Bob S said:

Oh yes, I really don't care how many times you have given me answers in the past, when those answers do not help us to understand then it bears repeating with answers that make us understand. If all you have written is truth and we are under the 10 commandments, the main issue, then you need to explain why Paul wrote that the 10 commandments were transitory and the following verses that tell us we have a new ministry that lasts. 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Please do not try to explain your way out of the situation by telling us that the ministry of death is now planted on our hearts. Even I know that that is adding to scripture and it is the same old ministry that caused death when on stones. You can counter with all the verses that tell us the law was not voided and is still our path to righteousness, but we know all it WAS able to do is point out sin (past tense) and now we have the power of the Holy Spirit living in us that does much more that the 10 could ever do.

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Just more repetition here Bob. Already answered again above in a different way for you here and elsewhere with the scriptures. You can choose to BELIEVE Gods’ Word or not. I do not judge you. See above answers to 2 COR 3 and the scriptures provided.

Bob S said:

There are many more sins than what the nine commandments reveal. The nine were just barely a start. As I have related many times the nine commands revealing sins of morality were just the tip of the iceberg.

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Indeed God has many Commands and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD’s WORD. As it is written;

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin. UNBELIEF in God’s WORD is SIN because whatsoever is not of FAITH is SIN (Romans 14:23).

Now is NOT BELIEVING God’s WORD and not following it is SIN. Are we BELIEVING God when he asks us to do something but we refuse to do it?

ALL of God’s LAW including the 4th Commandment are moral law.

MOR'AL, a. [L. moralis, from mos, moris, manner.]

1. Relating to the practice, manners or conduct of men as social beings in relation to each other, and with reference to right and wrong. The word moral is applicable to actions that are good or evil, virtuous or vicious, and has reference to the law of God as the standard by which their character is to be determined. The word however may be applied to actions which affect only, or primarily and principally, a person's own happiness.

Keep at the least within the compass of moral actions, which have in them vice or virtue.

Mankind is broken loose from moral bands.

2. Subject to the moral law and capable of moral actions; bound to perform social duties; as a moral agent or being.

3. Supported by the evidence of reason or probability; founded on experience of the ordinary course of things; as moral certainty, distinguished from physical or mathematical certainty or demonstration.

Physical and mathematical certainty may be stiled infallible, and moral certainty may be properly stiled indubitable.

Things of a moral nature may be proved by moral arguments.

4. Conformed to rules of right, or to the divine law respecting social duties; virtuous; just; as when we say, a particular action is not moral.

5. Conformed to law and right in exterior deportment; as, he leads a good moral life.

6. Reasoning or instructing with regard to vice and virtue.

While thou, a moral fool, sitt'st still and cri'st.

7. In general, moral denotes something which respects the conduct of men and their relations as social beings whose actions have a bearing on each others's rights and happiness, and are therefore right or wrong, virtuous or vicious; as moral character; moral views; moral knowledge; moral sentiments; moral maxims; moral approbation; moral doubts; moral justice; moral virtue; moral obligations, etc. Or moral denotes something which respects the intellectual powers of man, as distinct form his physical powers. Thus we speak of moral evidence, moral arguments, moral persuasion, moral certainty, moral force; which operate on the mind.

Moral law, the law of God which prescribes the moral or social duties, and prohibits the transgression of them.

Moral sense, an innate or natural sense of right and wrong; an instinctive perception of what is right or wrong in moral conduct, which approves some actions and disapproves others, independent of education or the knowledge of any positive rule or law. But the existence of any such moral sense is very much doubted.

Moral philosophy, the science of manners and duty; the science which treats of the nature and condition of man as a social being, of the duties which result form his social relations, and the reasons on which they are founded.

MOR'AL, n. Morality; the doctrine or practice of the duties of life. [Not much used.]

1. The doctrine inculcated by a fiction; the accommodation of a fable to form the morals.

The moral is the first business of the poet.

MOR'AL, v.i. To moralize. [Not in use.]

Bob S said:

They didn't even reveal that is is a sin not to love our fellow man. They were all about duty. One could perform each one of them and not have love in their hearts or do them out of love. I pay my taxes out of duty and not because I love having the spendthrift government of ours take my hard earned money and throw it away. The law enforce demands that I conform if I want to live in freedom.

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Bob, they purpose of God’s LAW is to point out SIN to lead us to the Savoir from SIN. You cannot follow God’s LAW without LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God’s LAW in those who BELIEVE his WORD.

Bob S said:

Thank you Jesus I am not under the demands of the Sinai covenant and all the verses you come at me with have not proven that I am under any obligation to observe any of those now defunct laws given only to Israel. Thank you Jesus that you kept the law that Israel failed to do and paid the price for all mankind to live under the law of love and have the promise of eternal life with you. What greater love..........

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Good luck trying to say that to God come judgement day Bob. SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

Hi Bob, nice to see you again .

I notice you only respond to part posts and part comments that I have posted to you and not the full post or the supporting scriptures and questions in them. Is there any reason for this Bob? Some further comments for you below.

This is what I wrote earlier not only the portion your responding to...

2 Cor 3
1, Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2, You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3, Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.
4, And such trust have we through Christ toward God:
5, Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6, Who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
7, But if the ministry of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8, How shall not the ministry of the Spirit be more glorious?
9, For if the ministry of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness exceed in glory.
10, For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels.

Now take a look at v3 highlighted in RED which is the CONTEXT or what follows.

Now take a look at the NEW COVENANT promise from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and repeated by the same same author as Corinthians in Hebrews 8:10-12 and 10:16-17

Hebrews 8
10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11, And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12, For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

This is the part that is transitory as you say. 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about the NEW COVENANT of God's LAW written on the heart through LOVE by His Spirit. The transitory is from the tables of stone to the fleshly tables of the heart (2 Cor 3:3; Hebrews 8:10)

Let's look at the scriptures laid out together side by side...

2 Cor 3:3, Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.

links to...

Hebrews 8
10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

links to...

Romans 13
8, Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.
9, For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
10, Love works no ill to his neighbor: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

The transitory is God's LAW written on stone to the fleshly tables of the heart through FAITH that works by LOVE by God's Spirit (Romans 8:1-4).

Bob S said:

Now allow me to highlight what Heb 8 is telling us.
6 But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises. 7 If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. 8 But when God found fault with the people, he said: “The day is coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. 9 This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and led them out of the land of Egypt. They did not remain faithful to my covenant, so I turned my back on them, says the Lord. 10 But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts.

Let me stop here and interject some verses that support that the laws written on our hearts is not the ministry of death like you so adamantly believe to support your preconceived idea that we have to keep the Sabbath of the now defunct old covenant.

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Bob you make a mistake here. The scriptures say God's LAW written on the heart is NOT the MINISTRY of DEATH. It is the penalty of the LAW that is the MINSTRY of DEATH because of SIN; as it is written...

The WAGES OF SIN is DEATH but the GIFT of GOD is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23)

and again.....

Romans 7
10, And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11, For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12, Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13, Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
14, For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The MINISTRY OF DEATH is the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH because the wages of SIN is death. This is the carnal sinful nature of man. It is not the LAW of GOD this is only the MIRROR that we look into to see who we are in order to seek the Savior.

If you break ANY of God's Commandments you are under the Minsitry of DEATH because the wages of SIN is death (Romans 6:23) This includes the 4th commandment which is one of the ten.

Bob S said:

Jesus fulfilled the law at Calvary Col2
13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cutaway. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.

16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality. 18 Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. (Thought I would throw in and highlight about the visions your prophet had.) Read her pious visions denying her flock things that have no bearing on a Christian life. The rules you say are written on our hearts Paul says are shadows I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already.
12 And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”

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Now Bob, we have been talking for some time already yet to this day you have not even addressed all the scriptures in this OP with the 200 + scriptures showing the meaning of COL 2 linking many of the OLD testament scriptures to the NEW Testament to show what the Shadow laws are referring to. Simply stating the scripture that the OP is discussing does not answer and refute what is written in the OP. Can I suggest that if you disagree with the OP and all the scriptures in them that disagree with your interpretation of COL 2 that you address the OP rather then just stating the scripture that the OP is discussing?

Here is a link for you here that disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures CLICK ME

Bob S said:

1Jn3:4 says sinning is breaking the Law of God. Again I ask is Jesus God. Did Jesus tell us in John 4 The person who keeps on sinning is guilty of not obeying the Law of God. For sin is breaking the Law of God. You tell me that God's Law is the 10 commandments. John tell me differently as noted in the following verses. We know we are Christians as per the following verses. See verses 22 and 23. How could you possibly miss the truth of what John is telling us in the following verses?

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Indeed and we know we are NOT Christians by reading the CONTEXT of 1 John 3

3, And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5, And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8, He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9, Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his nature remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10, In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

JAMES, PAUL and JOHN all agree that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandment (Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; James 2:9-11; 1 John 3:4). John also agrees and says those who practice SIN are NOT God's people and God's people are those not practicing SIN by BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God through LOVE (v23-24)

Bob S said:

Why do you insist on changing the meaning of the word transitory as you did in this response to me? Transitory does not mean changing from one form to another. Transitory means this:
1. not lasting, enduring, permanent, or eternal.
2. lasting only a short time; brief; short-lived; temporary.
Why would you deliberately write something that is not true? Do you see where you are making a word mean what you want it to in place of the true meaning? Is it because you have a preconceived agenda? If you take the real meaning of that one word you destroy your whole belief system. The 10 commandments would then be only temporary and would end at Calvary as Jesus indicated and has shown Paul His ambassador to believers.

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Now Bob none of that is true. See the scriptures above on 2COR 3. You have changed the meaning of the scriptures. If you believe this not to be the case please address the scritpures in the previous section that disagree with your interpretation. As said earler I have no agenda here accept to share God's WORD. These are Gods' Word not mine. If your interpretation is true there is no knowledge of SIN. It seems Jesus, and all the apostles disagee with you here Bob.

Bob S said:

1Jn3:19-24 tells us 19 This is how we know we are Christians. It will give our heart comfort for sure when we stand before Him. 20 Our heart may say that we have done wrong. But remember, God is greater than our heart. He knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our heart does not say that we are wrong, we will have no fear as we stand before Him. 22 We will receive from Him whatever we ask if we obey Him and do what He wants. 23 This is what He said we must do: Put your trust in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love each other. Christ told us to do this. 24 The person who obeys Christ lives by the help of God and God lives in him. We know He lives in us by the Holy Spirit He has given us.

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v19 is the summary of the CONTEXT spoken in v3-15 of 1 John 3 (Shown above already). Nothing written in this section of your post disagrees with what was spoken earlier but only builds on what John is saying in v 3-15 on who are God's Children and who are the Children of the devil. That is those who break God's Commandments are the Children of the devil and those that BELIEVE and FOLLOW God through FAITH that works by LOVE are God's Children because they do not break God's commandments.

Bob S said:

And as you can plainly see John did not indicate in 1Jn3:4 that it was the Law given at Sinai. Jesus didn't ask us to keep the Law given at Sinai, He asks us to keep the laws He gave us in Jn13:34 and Jn 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. and that is exactly what John so plainly wrote to us in verses 22 and 23, the commandments Jesus gave Christians.

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To believe what you have written in this section is to disagree with God's WORD and Jesus and all the apostles in the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures. John 15:10 follows on from John 14:15 which is talking about keeping God's 10 commandment through LOVE (James 2:-9-11; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4)

CLICK ME FOR MORE SCRIPTURE?

Bob S said:

Let's look at the scriptures laid out together side by side... Absolutely, as found in 1jn3:22-23 I believe I have adequately covered all that you left out of the new covenant. No need to discuss it further. You conveniently left out the best part because that part completely negates your belief.

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Well that has no truth in it Bob. We may need to agree to disagree. See previous sections and posts looking at all the scriptures that you have provided. Sorry Bob, I do not believe you have addressed the scriuptures provided that disagree with your interpretation of 2 COR 3 and 1 JOHN 3.

Bob S said:

Okay, I guess you have another meaning for the word fulfill. My dictionary tell me it means bring to an end. I do not think I ever accused you of not believing Jesus kept all the Law.

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The meaning of the word is determined by the CONTEXT as to how it is used.

Here is the GREEK meaning from the scirptures....

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G4137 πληρόω
plēroō; play-ro'-; From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute; do (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

Bob S said:

What I have repeatedly done is to write that the meaning of verse 4 is explained in verses 22 and 23 and not the 10 commandments. If verse 4 means the Sinai covenant then Paul spoke out of both sides of his mouth especially in Gal 3 and 2Cor 3.

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Yes Bob, but why your interpretation is not correct is because you leave out everything that is written between v4 and v23 showing scripture CONTEXT with John explaining what SIN is and who God's children are and the children of the devil then you ignore the other scriptures from the Apostles stating the same definition of SIN as does John. SIN is breaking God's LAW (Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; James 2:9-11; 1 John 3:4)

Bob S said:

If there is no law then there is no sin. Israel was under a covenant of laws and if they broke any of them it was as if they broke them all.

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Already addressed in earlier posts Bob with scriptures that you have not responded to.
WE are GOD'S ISRAEL. Under the NEW COVENANT gentile BELIEVERS are now grafted in to God's Israel (Romans 11:17-27).

God's Israel in the NEW COVENANT are those that BELIEVE GOD'S WORD and FOLLOW it. (Galatians 3:16; Romans 9:6; Galatians 3:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13; Romans 2:28-29).

If you are not a part of God's Israel, then you have NO PART in the NEW COVENANT (Jeremiah 31:33-4; Hebrews 8:10-12; Hebrews 10:14-17; Hebrews 8:10-12).

Bob S said:

That covenant of laws was negated at Calvary.

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You need to understand what the OLD COVENANT is. It was made up of God's 10 Commandments and the Mosiac book of the COVENANT with laws and ordinances for remission of sin should God's LAW be broken.

It is the laws for remission of SIN that are negated by Calvary (Levitical Priesthood, Sanctuary service and laws and ordinances and sin offereings and many of the annual festivals) God's LAW however is the KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTESOUNESS and the very standard of the Judgement to come. Suggest you read the OP here you have ignored and not responded to.

NO LAW = NO KNOWDGE OF SIN = NO NEED OF A SAVIOUR = NO SALVATION = LOST

The very first lie in the garden of Eden was that you can break God's Commandments and you will not surely die but be as God knowing good and evil. This is the same lie being taught by many false teachers in the Chrsitain Church today. This is a teaching from the father of lies (Genesis 3:1-5) This same lie cased the fall of mankind and this same lie will keep many out of God's KINGDOM today.

Bob S said:

Christians are not under those laws that you are so adamantly wanting to put your readers under.

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You are mixed up with your scriptures Bob. To be "UNDER THE LAW" means to be guilty of breaking it. If you have REPENTED, CONFESSED and FORSAKEN and BELIEVED God's promise then you are FOGIVEN and no longer "UNDER THE LAW" guilty before God of SIN. (Romans 3:19-20; Prov 28:13; 1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9; John 3:16)

Bob S said:

We are under the new and better covenant of love.

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Indeed

Romans 13
8, Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.
9, For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
10, Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

Bob S said:

Can you give us a rundown of the commandment we are to keep out of the 613 laws given only to Israel to keep?

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Yes; Man does not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of GOD (Matthew 4:4)

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.

Bob S said:

Seems like you have added your own interpretation to scripture. Guess Heaven will be a lonely place, especially if one touts the Law.

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Bob I have shared God's WORDS WORD with you. Whether you choose to BELIEVE or not BELIEVE it is up to you. I do not judge you. As you are doing the accusing the scriptures below may be applicable as you seem to be doing the very thing you are accusing others of.

Romans 2
1, Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whosoever you are that judge: for in what you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you that judge do the same things.
2, But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them who commit such things.
3, And do you think, O man, that judge them who do such things, and do the same, that you shall escape the judgment of God?
4, Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5, But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6, Who will render to every man according to his deeds

We should BELIEVE and FOLLOW the WORD of God over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

Bob S said:

Are you indicating that those verses mean the 10 commandments? How can you come to that conclusion is that is your indication? If there is not 10 there and you put one there then isn't that adding to scripture? Why would one put a 10 there unless it would help define ones belief system? Why couldn't I establish that the verses tell us that John was referring to Jesus commands in Jn 13:34 or Jn 15:10??? Who has given you that authority? Oh I know, it has to have been Mrs White. Seems like you have judged me already. I can only say that I have proven above that you have used scripture and words that do not portray what you want them to portray. I have not been provided God's Word by you as plainly seen above. I thank you for giving me the opportunity to believe what you tell me or the actual Word coming from the Bible. I will not and have never told anyone that they are unbelievers. Your words above tell a great deal how you think about your brothers and sisters that do not agree with the beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

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Bob now your just making things upt now and quoting your words over God's WORD did you want to respond to my posts and the scriptures in them that disagree with you?

Bob S said:

You use "not true" as if you are an authoritarian.

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Not really Bob. You can know if something is true or not true by providing scripture. I share the WORD of God because only Gods' WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the Commandments of God.

Bob S said:

If what you are telling me is the real truth then why did Paul write the following: 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

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Repitiation; already answered with scripture earlier Bob. God's LAW gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is (Romans 3:20; 7:7) It shows we are ALL SINNERS in need of a Saviour. The promise of SALVATION is from Christ. This is where God's LAW leads the SINNER to Christ that we might be FORGIVEN as we BELIEVE God's promise of FORGIVENESS from our SINS. This is where God's LAW leads us to Jesus that we can BELIEVE and FOLLOW him through FAITH that works by LOVE as we walk in His Spirit. Now we follow him because we LOVE him.

NO LAW = NO KNOWDGE OF SIN = NO NEED OF A SAVIOUR = NO SALVATION = LOST

Teaching against God's LAW or the prophets is something Jesus or the Apostles never did. God's LAW is the standard of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS and a part of the EVERLASTING Gospel that leads a SINNER to Jesus.

Bob S said:

Christians are not under the law PERIOD. There are no other explanations period. Paul wrote we are not under the law. See the word Till in verse 19, what does that mean to you? See the word WAS and NO LONGER in verses 24 and 25. What does that mean to you?

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Repitition; already covered above. To be "UNDER THE LAW" means to be guilty of breaking God's LAW (Romans 3:19-20). We are not "UNDER THE LAW" if we have REPENTED, CONFESSED and FORSAKEN out SINS and BELIEVED God's promise of FORGIVENESS then you are not UNDER THE LAW.

Bob S said:

I cannot see any truth to your statement that it is only the penalty that is removed when I read paul's words above. Of course the penalty is removed and that is because the Law has been removed.

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Repitition; Paul is not saying God's LAW is removed. Otherwise he would not have written

Romans 3:31, Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. There is too many other scriptures disagreeing with you.

see above already answered NO LAW = NO KNOWDGE OF SIN = NO NEED OF A SAVIOUR = NO SALVATION = LOST
MORE SCRIPTURE? CLICK ME

Bob S said:

I am not sinning because of a law that Israel was to keep the Sabbath when that law was nailed to the Cross. It was a transitory law that ended along with all the laws of the old covenant. Again, transitory does not mean TRANSFER.

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Repitition, already answered. God's ISRAEL are those who BELIEVE God's WORD and FOLLOW it. Under the NEW COVENANT gentile BELIEVERS are now grafted in to God's Israel (Romans 11:17-27).

God's Israel in the NEW COVENANT are those that BELIEVE GOD'S WORD and FOLLOW it. (Galatians 3:16; Romans 9:6; Galatians 3:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13; Romans 2:28-29).

If you are not a part of God's Israel, then you have NO PART in the NEW COVENANT (Jeremiah 31:33-4; Hebrews 8:10-12; Hebrews 10:14-17; Hebrews 8:10-12).

Bob S said:

Transitory is God's Word and negates all of the other "facts" you have provided. We are not under the 10 commandments. The law has been removed not just the penalty of the law.

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Ditto; Answered above already through the scriptures.

Bob S said:

Well thanks, you need to do some changes to your previous comments, because it sure seem like you have and your church's prophet sure has. You need to take a fresh look at her statements to those she culls because they refuse to believe her.That is fine with me, but if you continue to post things like you did above that are not Kosher I do not have any choice but to call out error. I find that your agenda is to spread the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church which I find are in error with scripture. A lot of rhetoric there LGW. I have read it all before. What I have written is strictly from scripture and there is no adding or subtracting. You cannot refute God's words. You can tell us Sunday is of the beast all you please, but it never tells us that it is in Scripture. It is only SDA interpretation. Keeping the commandments of God does not mean keeping the 10 commandments. The Word never tells us this. It comes from the SDA church's agenda to try to prove we have to worship on the now defunct Israelite Sabbath given only to Israel by God. The SDA church has tried to make that sacred day, only for Israel, into a salvational issue. It never was and never will be.

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Bob, here you are only speaking your words over God's WORD. You have not addressed the posts and the scriptures in them that disagree with your interpretation of God's WORD. You teach against God's LAW and the prophets. This is something Jesus and the Apostles never did. The first lie in the garden of Eden was that if you break God's Commandments you will not surely die but will be as God knowing good and evil. This is the same lie many are teaching today.

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

.......................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

Hope this is helpful for you

Bob S said:

No special reason LGW, I did get a little tired and I thought that what I responded to was enough to chew on. How do you find the time to write so much?

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Hi Bob, not sure how I spend so much time. I do not look at it as time I guess as I LOVE God's WORD. Sometimes late nights and early mornings I spend it in God's Word. I try to spend time in God's Word everyday.

Sometimes as part of my bible study I send time looking at what people write on the forums and do a bible study on the topic and so that I can try and understand what people say and ask Jesus to be my guide teach me. This is part of the NEW Covenant promise (Hebrews 8:11; John 14:26; 16:13; 7:17). Sometimes what I am sharing online is a result of my time in God's Word and bible study with the LORD.

Bob S said:

LoveGodsWord wrote:
This is what I wrote earlier not only the portion your responding to...

2 Cor 3
1, Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2, You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3, Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.
4, And such trust have we through Christ toward God:
5, Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6, Who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
7, But if the ministry of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8, How shall not the ministry of the Spirit be more glorious?
9, For if the ministry of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness exceed in glory.
10, For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels.

Now take a look at v3 highlighted in RED which is the CONTEXT or what follows.

Now take a look at the NEW COVENANT promise from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and repeated by the same same author as Corinthians in Hebrews 8:10-12 and 10:16-17

Hebrews 8
10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11, And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12, For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

This is the part that is transitory as you say. 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about the NEW COVENANT of God's LAW written on the heart through LOVE by His Spirit. The transitory is from the tables of stone to the fleshly tables of the heart (2 Cor 3:3; Hebrews 8:10)

Let's look at the scriptures laid out together side by side...

2 Cor 3:3, Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.

links to...

Hebrews 8
10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

links to...

Romans 13
8, Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.
9, For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
10, Love works no ill to his neighbor: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

The transitory is God's LAW written on stone to the fleshly tables of the heart through FAITH that works by LOVE by God's Spirit (Romans 8:1-4).

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Sorry Lgw, I don't think you even read what I posted. Transitory means temporary It does not mean transfer. Since you highlighted verse 3 you must have some understanding of the verse. It appears it is the epistle of Christ that is written the fleshy part of our hearts. An epistle is a letter. What is that letter that is written on our hearts?
Love is the command of the new covenant. Ritual law was commanded in the old covenant. Sabbath was a ritual law. You can spin it any way you will, but Sabbath didn't deal with morality anymore that wearing tassels on the four corners of the Israelites garments.
i can only tell you that Paul wrote that the 10 commandments were the ministry of death. In verse 7 we read the following: 7, But if the ministry of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Glorious defines 10 commandments. Verse 7 tell us this Glory or 10 commandments were to be done away. Seems like you have a problem with Paul and not me. As long as you hang on to SDA dogma You cannot agree with Paul.

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Yes I did read what you wrote Bob, the scriptures provided you above covers everything you have discussed through the scriptures highlighted above demonstrating CONTEXT and application into the NEW COVENANT.

I know what transitory means Bob and know it means temporary. Let me explain myself better in relation to 2 COR 3 , Hebrews 8 and Romans 3, 7-8 (all 4 chapters should be read together).

Before we come to Christ to be FORGIVEN for our SINS we are "UNDER THE LAW" Convicted by the LAW and guilty before God as SINNERS, breaking God's LAW (Romans 3:19-20).

We are IN SIN and the wages of SIN is death and like PAUL we cry out. O WRETHCED MAN THAT I AM, WHO shall deliver me from this body of death? (Romans 7:24)

This is a TEMPORARY process that ALL believers must go through before they can truly FIND and KNOW Jesus as their personal LORD and Saviour and LOVE him because he FIRST LOVED us.

LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW written on the fleshly tables of the heart. LOVE is the power to OBEY and FOLLOW God and when the LAW of God brings the WRTECH SINNER (me) to the cross of Chirst and when we reach out by FAITH to BELIEVE God's promised FREE GIFT of FORGIVENSS LOVE is written on the heart to FOLLOW Jesus. LAW AND LOVE are ONE if you have NO LOVE you cannot OBEY God. If you LOVE GOD however you have been set free from your SINS. This is what the NEW COVENANT promise is when it says he will write his LAW in your heart so that you can be his people (Hebrews 8:10-12)

God's LAW shows us that there is nothing that we can do of ourselves to save ourselves from our sins because we are a slave to SIN (Romans 7). Only then can we see God's LOVE and sacrifice for our SINS at calvarys cross.

God's LAW leads us to the cross of Jesus where we can see him dying for our SINS and by FAITH we see that it is by his stripes that we are healed. Now we are prepared to recieve the GIFT of FORGIVENESS as we BELIEVE God's WORD.

2 COR 3 is talking about this same process but in a different way as does Romans 7-9 and Hebrews 8:10-12.

Bob S said:

According to you everything I write is a mistake, but I take you criticism with a grain of salt.

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Bob S said:

Funny because Paul said the 10 commandments were the ministry of death and SDAs say the 10 commandments are what is written on the heart. Please show the verses that tell me that it is the 10 commandments that is written on our hearts. Please remember the Law was 613 commands. Jews recognized this fact. If it is the Law that is written on our hearts then it is 613 commands.

Here is a good test. If it is the 10 commandments that are written on our hearts why is it that multitudes of people are not flocking to observe Sabbath. Why is it that the SDA church has to spend millions over millions trying to convince audiences that they must become Sabbath observant and only a very few respond. If the Sabbath is written on the hearts of God's children why is so very hard to convince them? Wouldn't you think people would come on their own without spending millions and millions and only reap a very few. Then there is the back door, another issue.

Some of the most loving people I know are not churched. Most of society are honest, loving people, but they have no inkling that they must observe a day. If what you are telling me is true then as the saying goes "where's the meat?

Please define what it is that man is doing that is sinful. It was sinful for the Israelites to break any of the 613 laws given only to them at Sinai. And oh did they sin. God tried to help them, but they always fell back into the same old pattern. Israel broke the covenant with its 613 laws. In God's overwhelming love He sent His Son into the World that Israel might be saved. The law that was to make them a Holy nation became the law of death. Jesus, at His death ratified the new and better covenant one not like the one God gave to only Israel. This covenant has better promises and is an everlasting covenant not an "IF" covenant like the Sinai covenant was. The laws of our covenant are love and belief. Love portion covers all of morality not just 9 commands as the old law's 10 commandments did.

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Bob, everything here in this post is pretty much your words over God's Word that has already been answered in the previous posts so I will not comment here unless there is something you want me to then just let me know.

Bob S said:

Question: when did God make Gentiles responsible to keep the 10 commandments. When did He make gentiles responsible to keep the book of the law?

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It is not about keeping God's 10 commandments Bob it is about having faith that works by LOVE to BELIEVE and FOLLOW Jesus. Gentiles are now Grafted in to God's ISAEL. Already covered with scripture earlier.

Bob S said:

Look, I am tired and really want to end all this. Col2 plainly states that the feast days, new moons and Sabbath days are shadows, Paul was not stuttering when he wrote that. They are three different events. Feasts,(Sabbaths) new moons (Sabbaths) and Sabbaths. Sabbaths had to have meant weekly. There were not any more special days that were Sabbaths.

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These scriptures in COL 2:14-17 are what the OP is about here. Just stating the scripture that the OP is about does not address the 200+ scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of COL 2. Did you want to read and address the OP and the scritures in them that disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures? Nice talking to you Bob. I always like sharing God's Word with you.

It is important to note however that SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

Joelthe vicious said:

The Sundayers are satisfied that having answered the SDA is having explained away the "Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD". Both parties think around the same axle, which is why they have to shift and pile up mere words as many as they can onto the pole they occupy. Exchanging weightless arguments as far removed as north and south poles, they surf the same wave up and down, and never make full circle forward.

It is true, 'Keeping the commandments of God does not mean keeping the 10 commandments.' But it is truer, that keeping the Commandments of God does not mean breaking any one or more of the Ten Commandments. The Word never tells us that! It comes from the Sundayists' agenda to try to prove true Christians must worship on the day which paganism at first and Catholicism its successor in worship of the sun gave to Christianity and all the world. The Word tells us that!

But the SDA church LIKE the Catholics indeed make of Saturday and Sunday a matter of the Law of Moses engraved on stone, because there cannot be an easier way to divorce "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" from the "SALVATION OF THE LORD" and from "OBSERVE ye the Salvation of the LORD". All which only needed "the Salvation of the Lord to be observed" be shoved off "the Sabbath OF THE LORD" "to be observed", onto the 'Day of the lord Sun' "ye superstitiously observe"! Galatians 4:10.

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Now Joelthevicious your a funny one .

Are you just making stuff up now because you do not have anything from God's Word to share with us?

Our opinions are worth very little ONLY GOD'S WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it.

Let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged (Romans 3:4).

HOW DO WE KNOW IF WE ARE FOLLOWING GOD?

1 John 2
3, And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4, He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

Bob S said:

Now that is really funny LGW. "That" meaning you seriously have tried to ignore the real meaning of the word transitory. You, as of yet, refuse to acknowledge that you were wrong in your use of the word. You keep telling me I am wrong, yet you continue to write: "There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED"
Address the issue LGW

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Hello Bob,

Nice to see you again. God's WORD has been shared with you using many supporting scriptures both providing within chapter and scripture context and also supported by topical scriptures in different books by the same writer of 2 COR 3 in HEBREWS AND ROMANS.

When you say "That meaning", are you referring to the conversion process of 2 COR 3 of God's LAW being written in the fleshly tables of the heart which is supported also by the scriptures provided earlier from Romans chapters 7-8 and the promised NEW COVENANT of Hebrews 8:10-12?

Sorry Bob but I cannot take any credit for "that meaning" as you decribe it, as it is God's WORD not mine. I cannot deny the Word of God. We must believe God's Word over our own opinions as it is written...

Let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged. (Romans 3:4)

Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE him who calls us in LOVE to LOVE another.

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

.......................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

Joelthe vicious said:

So what is so different between the Sabbatharians' and the Sundaydarians' making up stuff from the Law in favour of their respective days? You do not know the Sundayists' appreciation of the Law, that's why you make such black and white blanket comparisons. Be informed, the Sundayers use every argument and text you are using for the Sabbath, for Sunday! From the Law in fact! And on your turn, you just copy the Sundayers' arguments and texts for their holding Sunday sacred in stead of the Sabbath Day!

O I know you will have long objections to what I inform you about, only because you are not up to date with reality in your opponents' camp.

So you are unaware of the only basic and real contrariness between yourself and them-- That they, the Sunday sacredness proponents, ABUSE the Resurrection of Jesus Christ "on the Sabbath" and EXCHANGED pertinent Scripture with own renditions to serve their Sunday doctrine; while you, all Saturdarians, without lifting an eyebrow look on and with applause accept their fraud.

You don't understand? No you don't because it's news to you. To me it is fifty years old news; news the SDA specifically for more than halve a century have estimated too far below their dignity to evaluate.

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Thanks for your comments JTV, did you have anything from God's WORD to contribute?