Was the Last Supper a Seder?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

That happened at midnight AFTER the lambs were killed and after the seder...

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Yes, but still in the dark.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

The fast of the firstborn is held BEFORE the seder...on the daylight hours of the 14th

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Well aware.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

I don't see any real evidence of that there. So you think that the essences, having abandoned Jerusalem BEFORE Yeshua died, somehow for some reason came back and owned a house IN Jerusalem? The Essenes, emerged out of disgust with the Pharisees and the Sadducees. This sect believed the others had corrupted the city and the Temple. They moved out of Yerushalayim and lived a monastic life in the desert, adopting strict dietary laws and a commitment to celibacy.

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Did you read Philo and Josephus?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

That happened at midnight AFTER the lambs were killed and after the seder...

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Did I say it didn't?

Lulav said:

Before?

"About 50 Essene kohanim lived in the Essene quarter of Jerusalem between 30 BC and 70 AD."


Not all according to Josephus.

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Can you give me a citation for Josephus. Josephus mentions a certain Essene teacher named Judas living in Jerusalem in 104 BC.

The Temple authorities maintained a lunar calendar while the Essenes followed a solar calendar, which consisted of exactly 52 weeks per year (364 days). According to this calendar, festivals always fell on the same day of the week. Thus, the Feast of Trumpets, Passover and the first day of Sukkot always occurred on a Wednesday. The Essenes considered the solar calendar used by the Hasmoneans in the Temple, tied as it was to a 354-day lunar calendar, to be adulterated with Babylonian elements. The difference in calendars created a terrible discrepancy in holiday observance, with the Temple authorities and the Essenes celebrating festivals on different days. This naturally created a sharp rift between the two groups.

Lulav said:

Yes, but still in the dark.

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And? Yeshua did not die at midnight, nor were the lambs killed at night.

Lulav said:

No, else there wouldn't have been an Essence corner of Jerusalem. This actually upholds my premise posted before.

The Essene Quarter of Jerusalem in the Time of Herod

City gates are often called after locations to which their streets lead. The Gate of the Essenes must have been named after the people who lived there and used the gate to go in and out of Jerusalem. About 50 Essene kohanim lived in the Essene quarter of Jerusalem between 30 BC and 70 AD. Celibate, they had stricter purity laws than those of Jerusalem Temple priests.

Josephus describes three walls that surrounded Jerusalem during the First Jewish Revolt against Rome (66-70 AD) and refers to a “Gate of the Essenes”.

Read more here

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It says "About 50 Essene kohanim may have lived in the southwestern quarter of Jerusalem between 30 BC and 70 AD." Where is the evidence for this?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Can you give me a citation for Josephus. Josephus mentions a certain Essene teacher named Judas living in Jerusalem in 104 BC.

The Temple authorities maintained a lunar calendar while the Essenes followed a solar calendar, which consisted of exactly 52 weeks per year (364 days). According to this calendar, festivals always fell on the same day of the week. Thus, the Feast of Trumpets, Passover and the first day of Sukkot always occurred on a Wednesday. The Essenes considered the solar calendar used by the Hasmoneans in the Temple, tied as it was to a 354-day lunar calendar, to be adulterated with Babylonian elements. The difference in calendars created a terrible discrepancy in holiday observance, with the Temple authorities and the Essenes celebrating festivals on different days. This naturally created a sharp rift between the two groups.

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I pointed out the calendar issue, way back in this thread, when I mentioned the Essene open houses More information can be found in Philo, ps 689 and 745, as already mentioned. There is not a lot in Josephus

AbbaLove said:

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Then we agree that Yeshua did not take a Nazarite vow to abstain from drinking the "fruit of the vine" with His Disciples at the "Last Supper" (Essene Seder)?

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Show me where Yeshua drank wine after the "last supper"...He ate bread as well as fish...but where does He drink wine?
Shabbat Shalom

Open Heart said:

He says this while eating the Seder meal with them, telling them how important it is to him to be eating this meal with them. Notice it says in verse 14 that they are reclining at the table? That's a Seder meal.

NIV:
14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

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have an intense feeling of longing for something, typically something that one has lost or been separated from.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Show me where Yeshua drank wine after the "last supper"...He ate bread as well as fish...but where does He drink wine?
Shabbat Shalom

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Not that it matters, but at that time of year only wine was available.

Open Heart said:

He says this while eating the Seder meal with them, telling them how important it is to him to be eating this meal with them. Notice it says in verse 14 that they are reclining at the table? That's a Seder meal.

NIV:
14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

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The Lord's Supper took place two days before Passover.

The translation is faulty.
(Came yet the day) That means the day was coming.

KJ21
And He said unto them, “With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;


Luke 22:15 Came yet the day of the Unleavened Bread…

In other words, the day had YET to come.

CherubRam said:

The Lord's Supper took place two days before Passover.

The translation is faulty.
(Came yet the day) That means the day was coming.

KJ21
And He said unto them, “With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;


Luke 22:15 Came yet the day of the Unleavened Bread…

In other words, the day had YET to come.

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No, your interpretation is not what that translation says.

Open Heart said:

No, your interpretation is not what that translation says.

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Here, check for yourself: Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

It says "About 50 Essene kohanim may have lived in the southwestern quarter of Jerusalem between 30 BC and 70 AD." Where is the evidence for this?

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I thought this... The Essene Quarter of Jerusalem in the Time of Herod

Twilight also has a plural meaning (twin ~ twice). Abraham Ibn Ezra understood Exodus 12:6 (Beyn HaArbayim) to mean the very beginning of Aviv/Nisan 14 to be 1 1/2 hours (90 minutes) from sunset until darkness when the Israelites killed the lambs. Rashi favored the 2nd Temple practice of twilight (Beyn HaArbayim) and the killing of the lambs beginning with the decline of the afternoon sun from noon to sunset being approximately the last 6 hours of Aviv/Nisan 14.

In Leviticus 23:5 is recorded the Lord's first Passover celebrated the following year after leaving Egypt. The majority of translations read "twilight" with other translations reading: even, evening, evenings, between the evenings, dusk, sundown, sunset ... anyway you get the idea.

The JPS 1985 translation reads "twilight" in both Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23:5. Abraham Ibn Ezra is considered more scholarly than Rashi in that his understanding was more toward what he thought was the original meaning; whereas Rashi tended to side with the prevailing tradition established during the 2nd Temple period.

In Luke 22:15, Yeshua/Yahushua is honoring the timeline of the Passover sacrifice as first observed "between the evenings" (Ben Ha Arbayim) in Exodus 12:6, Numbers 9:5 and Leviticus 23:5-6. (see YLT and HRB for literal translations). The Sanhedrin Pesach sacrifice timeline of the 2nd Temple period was during the last six hours of Aviv/Nisan 14.

Open Heart is correct when she suggests that it's your interpretation that's faulty.

Abraham Ibn Ezra is CORRECT in his interpretation of "between the evenings" (Ben Ha Arbayim) as originally observed from the setting of the sun (the end of Aviv/Nisan 13 to when no more traces of reflected daylight is seen in the sky (the beginning of night). Ibn Ezra (IE) calculates this timeline lasting ninety minutes in duration. This is the correct intrepretation of "twilight" as "twi" is pural (e,g, twin, twice) twidælan "to divide, split in two" as first observed by the Israelites.


The six hour timeline was instituted during the 2nd Temple period beginning at noon and ending just before sunset or approximately six hours. The Sanhedrin took it upon themselves to redefine "between the evenings" to begin with the decline of the afternoon sun to just before sunset likely for convenience sake.

Was Yeshua/Yahushua or the Essenes going to attempt to teach the Sanhedrin that their timeline was faulty? So the perfect Lamb of G-d hung on the cross during the slaughtering of lambs from noon to just before sunset on Aviv/Nisan 14. The perfect sacrificial lamb (Pascal lamb) without spot or blemish had been inspected by the High Priest and was slain approximately half-way through the slaying of the lambs (i.e. 3:00 pm).

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

And? Yeshua did not die at midnight, nor were the lambs killed at night.

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Didn't say he did. The lambs were killed at twilight, approx 6 hours before midnight.

Why could not the whole have been 'shared' between Essene and Temple Judaism calendars? Must he have followed only one OR the other for the whole sequence of events?