BABerean, my question was directed at Truth7t7. He's the only one that seems to be interested in having a conversation.
I understand why you would not want to discuss a short video that completely destroys the Pretrib doctrine...
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BABerean, my question was directed at Truth7t7. He's the only one that seems to be interested in having a conversation.
Does the scripture below represent your belief in a "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" of the Church to heaven?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Its like saying church and christian, same.Even when its explained IN THE TEXT you guys somehow miss the plain meanings of the verses, I don't get it to be honest. The Woman and the REMNANT CHURCH are clearly shown as different entities, one is protected and the other is not. Now if one is protected and the other is not how can they be the same entity? LIGHT-SWITCH ON
Rev. 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. { Anti-Christ sends his Army after Israel, the Jews FLEE JUDEA like Jesus warned them because they have REPENTED else they would not heed his voice would they? They are protected for 1260 Days in the Wilderness.}
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. { Just like in Egypt where the Red Sea parted and a Wall of Fire protected Israel, the Earth will help them and keep the Anti-Christ from getting at the Woman (Israel) and they will reside in Petra most people think which is a fortification of sorts also. This ANGERS the Dragon who then sends forth the Anti-Christ after the REMNANT of HER SEED which is of Course Jesus Christ if you read Galatians chapter 3 its plain as day. }
17 And the dragon was wroth{ANGRY} with the woman (Israel), and went (STOPPED GOING AFTER THE WOMAN) to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. { So its very clear here, the Anti-Christ is VERY ANGRY that he can not get at the Jews, (the WOMAN = Israel per Genesis 37:9) and so he THEN GOES AFTER THE Remnant of HER SEED which is the Church of Jesus Christ that is now ON EARTH, whereas the Bride has been Raptured to Heaven, thereby everyone that comes unto Christ after the Rapture will be a part of the REMNANT CHURCH on earth. A Remnant is a small part of something. }
Now is Jesus the SEED of the Woman Israel? Lets let the bible interpret the bible !!
Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Now lets reexamine Rev. 12:17, who is Israel's SEED ? Well of course its ONE Jesus Christ the redeemer of all mankind. And thus the REMNANT of her seed do just as verse 12 says, they keep the COMMANDMENTS of Christ Jesus. The Anti-Christ was ANGRY he could not get at Israel the WOMAN so he changes course and goes after the REMNANT CHURCH of Jesus Christ or those that came to Christ after the Rapture.
Did that not ring a bell with you? He can't get at the WOMAN so he goes after one he must CAN GET AT !! They are not, nor can they be, the same entity !!
Yes.
Even when its explained IN THE TEXT you guys somehow miss the plain meanings of the verses, I don't get it to be honest. The Woman and the REMNANT CHURCH are clearly shown as different entities, one is protected and the other is not. Now if one is protected and the other is not how can they be the same entity? LIGHT-SWITCH ON
Rev. 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. { Anti-Christ sends his Army after Israel, the Jews FLEE JUDEA like Jesus warned them because they have REPENTED else they would not heed his voice would they? They are protected for 1260 Days in the Wilderness.}
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. { Just like in Egypt where the Red Sea parted and a Wall of Fire protected Israel, the Earth will help them and keep the Anti-Christ from getting at the Woman (Israel) and they will reside in Petra most people think which is a fortification of sorts also. This ANGERS the Dragon who then sends forth the Anti-Christ after the REMNANT of HER SEED which is of Course Jesus Christ if you read Galatians chapter 3 its plain as day. }
17 And the dragon was wroth{ANGRY} with the woman (Israel), and went (STOPPED GOING AFTER THE WOMAN) to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. { So its very clear here, the Anti-Christ is VERY ANGRY that he can not get at the Jews, (the WOMAN = Israel per Genesis 37:9) and so he THEN GOES AFTER THE Remnant of HER SEED which is the Church of Jesus Christ that is now ON EARTH, whereas the Bride has been Raptured to Heaven, thereby everyone that comes unto Christ after the Rapture will be a part of the REMNANT CHURCH on earth. A Remnant is a small part of something. }
Now is Jesus the SEED of the Woman Israel? Lets let the bible interpret the bible !!
Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Now lets reexamine Rev. 12:17, who is Israel's SEED ? Well of course its ONE Jesus Christ the redeemer of all mankind. And thus the REMNANT of her seed do just as verse 12 says, they keep the COMMANDMENTS of Christ Jesus. The Anti-Christ was ANGRY he could not get at Israel the WOMAN so he changes course and goes after the REMNANT CHURCH of Jesus Christ or those that came to Christ after the Rapture.
Did that not ring a bell with you? He can't get at the WOMAN so he goes after one he must CAN GET AT !! They are not, nor can they be, the same entity !!
We can call the Jews who are "protected" Christians also if we want to, however God via Jesus/John in Revelation seems to want to keep the two separated, thus I call them the Woman (Israel) even though they have repented. Only 1/3 of the Jews make it to the Wilderness, 2/3 are killed, that might be because they live in lets say Europe or the USA and just can't make it to Petra in time etc.Revealing Times my issue is your use of the word "church" when referring to the remnant. You say in your post that the Bride has been raptured. If the church is the Bride of Christ, and we know that it is, then this remnant of believing Jews must be part of another group.
Revealing Times my issue is your use of the word "church" when referring to the remnant. You say in your post that the Bride has been raptured. If the church is the Bride of Christ, and we know that it is, then this remnant of believing Jews must be part of another group.
Rapture, could happen before the 70th week starts. Or maybe after it starts, but before the Day of the Lord begins with the 2thessalonians2:4 act.Yes.
Except its not the same, just like the Church and the United States is not the same, nor the Church and Spain etc. etc. Galatians chapter 3 is speaking about Faith vs. THE LAW, and Paul is telling them basically THERE IS NO LAW, thus there is NO JEW nor GREEK in that the Old Jewish Laws are dead. He was telling the Galatians don't let some Jewish person tell you that you have are inferior, we are all saved via the blood of Jesus. But there is still an ISRAEL, Read Romans chapters 9-11, it speaks of the two entities over and over, Israel and the Church, the Church and Israel. The Church is thus Raptured, SOME Jews are Raptured because they are some Messianic Jews, Israel is only BLINDED IN PART, (See Peter, Paul, Matthew Etc.) but 90-95 percent of the Jews will have no chance to see the truth until after the Rapture, then the 70th week starts and Israel will repent via the Two-witnesses testimonies just like Malachi 4:5-6 says.Its like saying church and christian, same.
Woman and remnant Jew same.
When does the resurrection of the believer take place, "Last Day"?
John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
IMO this verse could be rendered like such----And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her offspring, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. When rendered like that, it seems to me that this can easily fit the church. IOW----And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the church, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. It still agrees with your position that the woman meant here, and the remnant of her seed meant here, they are not, nor can they be, the same entity---which BTW, I tend to agree with you about that part.
Seed in that verse seems to be meaning in the plural sense IMO. Christ isn't a plural, so I can't see Him being whom is meant by seed in that verse.
We agree that the 1/3 are the "Remnant" saved Jews that receive Jesus Christ and make it to a literal wilderness in the woods.We can call the Jews who are "protected" Christians also if we want to, however God via Jesus/John in Revelation seems to want to keep the two separated, thus I call them the Woman (Israel) even though they have repented. Only 1/3 of the Jews make it to the Wilderness, 2/3 are killed, that might be because they live in lets say Europe or the USA and just can't make it to Petra in time etc.
Whoever repents and accepts Jesus are of course Christians, but Jesus/John seems to keep the two separated by calling Israel THE WOMAN and the REMNANT OF HER (Israel's) SEED. The Jews are called THE WOMAN and REMNANT of her seed is those Gentiles NOT RAPTURED who then give their lives unto the Lord before the Anti-Christ COMES FORTH or even after he COMES FORTH, and they refuse to receive the Mark of the Beast. They are the ones that die instead, they are the Beheaded under the Alter at the 5th Seal.
EXAMPLE: Say, God forbid someone you know doesn't make the Rapture, someone who maybe was just living in the world, or someone who thought they had enough oil in the lamp, but they were just wrong, they were not dedicated to the Lord in full. They were play acting so to speak. Then after 750 Million people die, or 1 Billion or 1.5 billion die, whatever the number is, this person you know remembers you and your testimony, the life you lived, and decide to give their lives fully to the Lord, even if that means dying for the Lord from this point on. THOSE are the Remnant (Small part that is left on earth) CHURCH my brother. The Woman is Israel, and the REMNANT of HER SEED (Jesus) is those Gentiles that come to the Lord after the Rapture, if you catch my drift.
God is calling the Jewish people who Repent the WOMAN (Israel) here, she is protected, that is because God promised Abraham that his seed would carry on FOREVER, and because Jesus is going to rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years. God lifted their blindness after the Rapture, the Gentiles were not blinded, they just tarried in their worldly ways for too long, or of course there are many that just love evil, they will be defeated at Armageddon. The only difference is those Jews in Israel are PROTECTED by God supernaturally, whereas those who tarried, then became Christians all over the world will be in jeopardy of being killed/beheaded unless the worship the Beast as God. Of course there are exceptions, of you are a Christian from Egypt, Jordan etc. etc. and know the scriptures I would Imagine you could flee to Petra also. And some Jews in say the USA who repent might be beheaded. The point is, God is separating them in Rev. ch. 12 for a reason, he is Going to protect 1/3 of the Jews who Flee to Judea, but the Christians all over the world who waited until after the Rapture to come to the Lord will have to lay down their lives or serve the Beast. The BEHEADED in Rev. 20:4 reign with Christ for 1000 years even after being resurrected, I think the Bride who came back with Jesus from Heaven (Rev. ch. 19) will return to Heaven to hep ready New Jerusalem, thus when New Jerusalem comes down its called what? THE BRIDE......
I think the Bride descends with New Jerusalem.
There are verses in the Old Testament where they are called the Remnant. However in Rev. 12:17 the REMNANT of her SEED has nothing to do with Israel, that is the REMNANT Church.We agree that the 1/3 are the "Remnant" saved Jews that receive Jesus Christ and make it to a literal wilderness in the woods.
As I stated above, the REMNANT of the Church is not the Remnant of Israel, they are two different entities. The word WILDERNESS can be used for many places, it mean SOLITUDE. The reason I say Petra is its pretty clear in the bible that's where it is, and where else would make a better natural fortification? The scriptures I think back me up.You isolate this wilderness to Petra in Jordan, the scripture in Micah 7 below specifically gives the identification of 3 different places that represent this wilderness, Carmel, Bashan, and Gilead.
Really? The current demographics are around 40% of the world's Jews live in Israel.Checking the math, “93.5 % of Jews in the world would end up in Israel by 2012” (Research done by George and Raymond Konig ofhttp://www.AboutBibleProhecy.com).
Read Romans chapters 9-11, it speaks of the two entities over and over, Israel and the Church, the Church and Israel.
That part has ZILCH/NOTHING to do with the point I was making and its his blog, I don't agree with everything anyone says, I have not looked at that part because to me its irrelevant, and two he could have wrote it 20 years ago with an anticipation that it would come to pass.Really? The current demographics are around 40% of the world's Jews live in Israel.
(copy and paste from Wikipedia)
Israel and the United States account for 83% of the Jewish population, while a total of 98 countries host the other 17%.[3]
Yea, I wrote a blog on this and showed how many times Paul pointed out the Church or Israel in those three chapters over and over and over.This. 70 years ago there was room for academic debate on the topic, but since 1948 there isn't. Israel is in the land again. God is getting ready to once again deal with the world via the nation of Israel. The 70th Week of Daniel is at hand.
Exactly, that's a half truth of Satan. He takes words and then mixes in half truths and because some people just can't get the KJV hes able to confuse them.Most people, if they are confused on eschatology at all, it is because they don't properly understand their ecclesiology. Israel and the Church are distinct. The Church did not replace Israel, it interrupted it.