I am speaking specifically about church order and the order in the homes.
They are not the same.
In a family, the man is husband a father. Children are born into the family; they are related to him, whether they like it or not, and whether he is a great father or a poor role model. After a few years, if they are old enough and have enough money, they can leave home, but they cannot change who their father is, and with whom they may share some genetic traits.
A church Minister is a church Minister - called to be so by God. They lead, or preside over, a group of believers. The bottom line is that it is a job; they may move on, get moved on, be asked to leave or retire.
The church members are probably not related to the Minister, may or may not like them or find them to be approachable and are not obliged to stay in that church. While they are in the church, the Minister has pastoral charge of them, may watch over their spiritual lives and guide/help/counsel them in their faith, but cannot tell them what to do. A person's life and faith is between them and God; if they disagree with the Minister's advice/p.o.v, they can leave.
As far as being a witness for Jesus and sharing the faith with others, I believe women can do this as well as men. We see this in scripture. But we do not see a woman pastor gift or women in oversight over the men in the New Testament.
So how does that prove that God can't call women to do this today?
We see lots of things in the NT, that we don't have today - like slaves, people wearing robes, offering sacrifices.
We have many things in our society today that weren't even thought of in NT times - like computers, cars, phones, planes, microphones, powerpoint etc etc. Some of these are used in worship, or to take us to worship; some of these are used to preach and teach the Gospel. But we don't see them in the NT.
This is not allowed because they will have to judge and warn and rebuke the men and women consistantly in such a role. And because in 1 Timothy3 we see that men are to rule well their own homes and to take care of the church, not women.
It IS allowed, because God IS calling women to do this today.
It's happening; it's a fact. And it happens with the approval and agreement of the church.
What happens in the church affects the women's role in the home and visa versa.
No it doesn't.
My role as a preacher at church has no bearing on what happens in my home. Doing the housework, cleaning, gardening at home does not affect, or negate, my calling to preach the word of God.
But, The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy and women can prophesy as I have already said.
I know we can.
But some people take 1 Timothy 2:12 literally, and apply it literally, and claim the Scriptures say that women cannot speak or teach in church. Prophesy is doing both - speaking out the word of God, which may include a word of rebuke, or teaching.
God is not the authour of confusion. He does not create a contradiction for women in their homes under their husbands rule in the house and then when they had the church meet in their house on the Sunday or whenever, the woman can not judge and teach and rule over her husband? No this is not right and would cause confusion.
No it wouldn't. Different roles for different occasions.
If your dad was a teacher/doctor/police officer and went off to work each day; when he came home, would you expect him to give you homework and detention, stick needles in you or arrest you? No.
Even if you were in his class at school, you would learn to call him Mr .... in front of others and not "dad", and not give him a hug whenever you passed him in the corridor.
If you were a boss and your wife was your secretary, it might be justifiable in the office to say "I want those letters typed by tomorrow/make an appointment with .... for me/I have to give you a warning for your behaviour. But try that with your wife at home, and it is likely you'd be sleeping on the sofa, or worse.
A husband's job is to love and cherish his wife, as he vowed to do on their wedding day; a boss's job is to lead and manage a company. It is his job and comes with a contract, pay packet etc. I think it very unlikely that a woman wouldn't be able to tell the difference between her husband at home and her boss in the office.
Remember that for about 300 years after Christ death the early church had the church which meets in their house and still should today,
That's a matter of opinion, and choice.
This is one of the apostolic patterns and order we see in scripture, many verses could show this aspect. There is no such thing as a "church building" in the New testament
Agreed.
Which is why it makes no sense to say that a woman cannot do certain things "in church"; WE are the church. A group of believers who meet in a pub/school/home/cafe are the church in the pub/school/home/cafe.
But there are certain restrictions given by God through his ministers in scripture.
There aren't though - otherwise God would have clearly said so, and, more importantly, he would not call women to do this today.
And please don't say that he isn't; that would imply that Christian women are deliberately ignoring Scripture to get what they want, and are somehow managing to persuade men that it's also ok for them to disobey God.
Women are being called, and ordained, today as Pastors/Ministers of churches - with the full knowledge, approval and agreement of the rest of the church. They lead worship, they marry people, baptise, visit the sick, bury the dead etc etc. None of these things are illegal, or invalid, because a woman has done them.
Not quite. When God made woman he took her out of man and for the man as a helpmate. But man was created from the dust of the ground .
Yes - but she was still created by God in his image, see Genesis 1:26-27.
Also God said
" Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
AFTER the fall, as I said.
So is their not to be pain and sorrow in conception today ? Are men still to work to the sweat of their brow and is the land still cursed and brings forth throns and thistles? Yes it is and yes women still have pain.
Most women have pain, some may not. Some may have caesarians, others may make use of the drugs that are available to ease pain.
For most, conceiving a child will be a time of joy and hope, not sorrow. And men still work for a living - as do a lot of women. But even if they are farmers and till the soil, like Adam did; there is heavy farm machinery to make life easier.
What's your point?
This includes all women and all men in this context. He fgoes back to creation to prove it and at that time there was one man and one woman. Pauls argument here is that the "woman being deceived was in the transgression."
Firstly, being deceived is not a sin. Eve was deceived because she hadn't heard God's command for herself and didn't know. Which follows on from Paul's words to let women learn.
Secondly, Paul says in Romans 5 that sin and death came into the world through Adam, and that Jesus was the second Adam.
Thirdly, Eve being deceived is not proof that women shouldn't lead, teach or be Ministers. If that was the argument, you'd have to say that men cannot be Ministers because Adam knew God's word and deliberately disobeyed. Who wants a Minister who knows full well what God is saying but does the opposite?
No this is wrong here as it is wrong if any try to say Paul just gave his opinions in 1 Cor 14:as well.
This is addressed to anyone who takes this verse literally and applies it literally.
Taken literally, it says "I do not permit", not "God commands ...".
Paul said what HE spoke was the truth IN CHRIST.
Yes, it was. No doubt it was God's word for that church/those churches, at that time, in that situation.
Like I said, how does that prove that God commands this to happen today?
Paul wrote some things in his letters that were for certain people at the time; for example, he told people to treat their slaves well, he said that widows under the age of 60 should not have financial assistance, that women should not wear gold or pearls, and that Timothy should stop drinking water but drink wine.
Does this mean that we, today, are disobedient because we don't have slaves, may give financial help to a young woman with children who has just lost her husband, that we wear gold wedding rings in church, and that some of us may be tee total?
Yes women can teach other women and children and their word may be used of God in prophecy and revelation and witness to speak to a man as well.
And yet, apparently, women can't teach because Eve was deceived?
So why allow a woman, who may be easily deceived, to teach young children and other women also?
If a woman is allowed to teach, an has been given that gift by the Holy Spirit, she is allowed to teach anyone.
But teaching gifts have to judge and correct and rebuke and correct and question others.
Some words of prophecy may do that too - see 2 Kings 22:15-20 - yet you agree that a woman may prophesy.
This is not allowed for a woman and espescially when the church is gathered in their homes in God's order.
That's your opinion and interpretation; not everyone shares it.
Not in a church setting with the elders ( men who are present). But if God spoke through prophecy this may be allowed.
God can speak through, and use, anyone he likes to proclaim his word and further his kingdom. That's the point - it's God's calling, God's Gospel, God's kingdom and God who lives in us by his Spirit. It's all from God.
Yes in the home women can ask questions discuss talk aboit ideas etc,
We can in church too; that's how we learn.
Paul even says for women to ask their husbands at home, not in the gatherings.
Not exactly.
Paul says that women should be silent in the gatherings, and then says "if anyone wants to ask questions, let them ask their own husbands at home".
Clearly women were asking questions in the gatherings/meetings and were asking them of the nearest man/any men. Paul would not have needed to tell them not to ask questions unless they were, and were disrupting the meeting.
Some female Christians may be single and not have a husband; how do you suppose they survive, never mind grow, in their Christian lives without a man to supposedly guide them?
What if the man prophesied and the others were suppose to judge ( except the women) and the women, his wife perhaps, asked him, "how do you know that as from God?" or " you say that but you yourself do not follow that is that not right?, or what if another man prophesied and a women who was not his wife questioned him. These things should not be allowed, but she can ask her husband at home.There could be many possible situations here.
Again, some Christian women may not have husbands.
Are you saying that if a man were to stand up and preach heresy, or give an apparent word from the Lord and a woman who was listening knew that it was false or not from God, she should say nothing, allow others to receive false teaching and the man to continue in his error; but tell her husband at home - if she has one, and if he is a Christian - so that he may later go and correct the speaker, (who may be a visiting preacher from another town)?
Again, yes, women can speak in many situations outside the gatherings
What you don't seem to realise is, WE, God's children, are the church; all denominations, all ages, all genders.
We can gather anywhere to pray, speak about God, study the Bible; maybe in a cafe, outside the school gates, by holding a Christian meeting in the lunch hour at work - or even on a Christian forum. It doesn't make sense to say that women can speak/testify/prophesy in these situations but not when you go to a building, or someone's house, on a certain day of the week, to hold a formal service of worship.
There have even been times in meetings where some women will give a testimony in faith of Jesus and and they are being humble and meek and not dominating and judging and the men do not feel usurped or dominated over or as if the women is ruling.
In my experience, men who have heard a woman's call to Ministry, have taught, prayed for and supported her during training and who gladly agree to, and welcome her, ministry, do not fell "usurped or dominated over".
In ordination services, the bishop/Superintendent, (who is usually a man), asks the congregation if it is their belief that the person is called by God, their will that they be ordained and if they will pray for the person in their ministry. If the congregation were all to shout "no", or walk out; if the bishop knew beforehand that no church councils agreed with the ordination, it might not go ahead.
So if men willingly agree to, and support, a woman in this role; how are they being judged and "dominated over"?
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, and women may testify and prophesy.
Women are very very important to Jesus . I pray that no women would misunderstand what I speak of here. I seek the good of all the body and both men and women. But in God's order in the church and in the home these things are for four good.
Again, your opinion.
If God agreed and had commanded women not to be Ministers, he would not call them to that role today.
Deborah knew the problem of a women in this situation and she told him the danger it was an unatural thing for the woman to be in that place and her words reminded him of that.
Deborah was called by God to be judge over the whole nation. She knew who had called her and what she needed to do in that role.
Also when we read about the men of faith in Hebrews 11 we read nothing of Deborah, but instead the man "Barak".
That doesn't matter. Deborah was still appointed by God to be judge over the whole nation.
Deborah was a help meet for man in some sense here not in the role of greater in authrority in her person over the king.
Israel did not have a king at that point; they had judges.
Deborah was appointed as judge.
The point of that verse was that children were their oppressors and women ruled over them. This women ruling over them was a problem and shameful thing as the text shows.
No, the king ruled over them.
But he was allowing women to influence him in his decisions, so it was almost as if the women were ruling. Whoever was king at the time was appointed by God - and probably fulfilling the promise given to David that one of his descendants would always sit on the throne. If the king was the Lord's anointed, chosen by him, it was his job to rule and make the decisions, and not allow his unelected harem to do it for him.
When Deborah was elected judge by God, it was her job to rule, and she would have challenged anyone who tried to take that role - usurp it - from her.
Bottom line, if God calls someone to do something, we can be for or against them, but that shouldn't top the person from doing what they are called to.
When Gladys Aylward applied to the missions board to go to China as a missionary, they turned her down; believing that she was too frail to be able to do the work. Because Gladys knew she was called to go to China, she went, and founded a church there, as well as taking the Gospel to many.
Do you think God was pleased that she obeyed him, did the work he had called her to and proclaimed his word;or displeased that she didn't listen to men - mere human beings?
a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 
