Was the Last Supper a Seder?

Yeshua HaDerekh

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Is that why Yeshua spoke to His mother at the wedding the way He did?

Not sure I understand your question. The wedding at Cana was long before the "last supper".
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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6 You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight.

That depends on what you think Beyn HaArbayim means...especially since the word is plural...
 
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Heber Book List

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That depends on what you think Beyn HaArbayim means...especially since the word is plural...

Twilight, used to refer, in English, to the change from night to morning and from evening to night so in any one day there would be two twilight periods. The morning 'twilight' is not now in use, and hasn't been for some considerable time.

Some have noted the use of these two terms as being in line with the Jewish day - from one evening to the next evening (from twilight to twilight).
 
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CherubRam

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Numbers 6:1-21

Sometimes I wonder why I bother to talk to anyone.

4 As long as they remain under their Nazirite vow, they must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins.

5 “‘During the entire period of their Nazirite vow, no razor may be used on their head. They must be holy until the period of their dedication to the Lord is over; they must let their hair grow long.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Good point. The place that Yeshua used, as indicated by the man carrying the water jug was, almost certainly, an Essene house; they were male only buildings, so no women were allowed.

One might assume from that, that they were preparing for an Essene Passover meal, not a normal Jewish Passover meal. The Essene Passover dates may well have varied slightly from the normal Jewish Passover, because they used a different calendar.

An "Essene" house??? No Essenes lived in Yerushalayim! That was the whole point of being an Essene! They all withdrew to the desert...
 
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Heber Book List

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An "Essene" house??? No Essenes lived in Yerushalayim! That was the whole point of being an Essene! They all withdrew to the desert...

Until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Judean wilderness, the only material available on the Essenes came from the classical historians. Because the community was semi-monastic and separatist, it is not surprising that the information was sometimes vague or incomplete. Furthermore, the philosophical biases of the writers may account for some inconsistencies in our understanding the sect.

The Classical Sources
The oldest accounts of Essenes we have come from Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 B.C.--50 A.D.): Quod omnis liber probus sit ( Every Good Man Is Free) and Hypothetica also called Apologia. He tended to idealize the Essenes and accommodate their ideas and lives to his Greek readers.

There are three major accounts of the Essenes in Josephus. The best known and earliest (shortly after 70) is Bellum Judaicum ( History of the Jewish Wars) 2. 8. 2-13. The other two notices are in Antiquitates ( Jewish Antiquities) 13.5.9 and 18.1.5. Josephus also pointed to features in the Essenes that would appeal to the Greeks. He compared the Essenes to Pythagorus, the Pharisees to the Stoics and the Sadducees to the Epicureans.

The elder Pliny, a Latin writer who accompanied Titus in the war, briefly mentions the Essenes in his Natural History, V, 17,4. He writes about the marvels of the Dead Sea; but he locates and describes the Essenes in that area.

Pliny locates a community of Essenes on the shore of the Dead Sea, just north of Engada and Masada. But other Essenes lived in towns and villages and had an open house policy for traveling Essenes. There were apparently different orders of the sect; Josephus refers to the customs of one "order of Essenes"

Admission required a postulant to live outside the camp for a year with minimal provisions and follow the rules of discipline. If he remained faithful he could draw near to the purification water. Then, after two more years as a novitiate, he could take the oath and join the meal.

The Essenes were ascetics. Their life was one of self-denial for the performance of virtuous acts. They had no money, no luxuries, no pleasures of love (with women); they sought contentment away from the world. One whose name was Banus lived in the desert, wore only what grew on trees, ate only what grew of its own accord, and bathed in cold water to preserve his chastity.

The Essenes held all things in common. They were indeed a brotherhood; all activity was for the common good of the community. When they joined they relinquished all their personal property. When they worked, their salaries were handed over to a common purse. If any were in need, they could simply take from the common supplies. And no one had a private house, for the dwellings were open to all travelers. Any Essene traveling could therefore go unencumbered, except for being armed for safety.

Also see Philo page 745.
 
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Lulav

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That depends on what you think Beyn HaArbayim means...especially since the word is plural...
When you think of the actual Passover, they killed it at the going down of the sun, then roasted it, ate it in the house after the doorposts were sprinkled with the blood. As it says...

None was to remain till morning, so that says to me that it was right around nightfall so it was to be done in the dark, eaten before the morning came.

Also in Luke we read:

Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."

So 'the day' would have to be nightfall of the 14th going into the 15th which would be the day of unleavened bread (1st day a Sabbath)

I was thinking about this last night as I was drifting off to sleep and actually reading a book about the Crucifixion from Pilates POV.

They were talking about the darkness that overcame the land after he was nailed to the cross which many say was the time of 9 in the morning. This darkness lasted from Noon till three.

Could this have happened because the lamb was to die in the darkness possibly indicative of darkness= sin?

Something to think about.
 
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Lulav

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An "Essene" house??? No Essenes lived in Yerushalayim! That was the whole point of being an Essene! They all withdrew to the desert...

No, else there wouldn't have been an Essence corner of Jerusalem. This actually upholds my premise posted before.

The Essene Quarter of Jerusalem in the Time of Herod

City gates are often called after locations to which their streets lead. The Gate of the Essenes must have been named after the people who lived there and used the gate to go in and out of Jerusalem. About 50 Essene kohanim lived in the Essene quarter of Jerusalem between 30 BC and 70 AD. Celibate, they had stricter purity laws than those of Jerusalem Temple priests.

Josephus describes three walls that surrounded Jerusalem during the First Jewish Revolt against Rome (66-70 AD) and refers to a “Gate of the Essenes”.

Read more here
 
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Heber Book List

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When you think of the actual Passover, they killed it at the going down of the sun, then roasted it, ate it in the house after the doorposts were sprinkled with the blood. As it says...

None was to remain till morning, so that says to me that it was right around nightfall so it was to be done in the dark, eaten before the morning came.

Also in Luke we read:

Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."

So 'the day' would have to be nightfall of the 14th going into the 15th which would be the day of unleavened bread (1st day a Sabbath)

I was thinking about this last night as I was drifting off to sleep and actually reading a book about the Crucifixion from Pilates POV.

They were talking about the darkness that overcame the land after he was nailed to the cross which many say was the time of 9 in the morning. This darkness lasted from Noon till three.

Could this have happened because the lamb was to die in the darkness possibly indicative of darkness= sin?

Something to think about.

Or the darkness could relate to the time of the killing of the first born in Egypt. The first born Son of God died to bring salvation whereas the first born of Pharaoh died for because of his evil?
 
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Lulav

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In The Wars of the Jews, first century historian Josephus records that the Passover lambs were slaughtered on the 14th, "from the ninth hour till the eleventh" (Wars 6.9.3). This would correspond to our 3:00-5:00 P.M.
 
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visionary

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Not sure I understand your question. The wedding at Cana was long before the "last supper".
It was about the wine... and the nazarite vow that maybe Yeshua had.. thus the question about His response to His mother at the wedding about the wine..
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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No, else there wouldn't have been an Essence corner of Jerusalem. This actually upholds my premise posted before.

The Essene Quarter of Jerusalem in the Time of Herod

City gates are often called after locations to which their streets lead. The Gate of the Essenes must have been named after the people who lived there and used the gate to go in and out of Jerusalem. About 50 Essene kohanim lived in the Essene quarter of Jerusalem between 30 BC and 70 AD. Celibate, they had stricter purity laws than those of Jerusalem Temple priests.

Josephus describes three walls that surrounded Jerusalem during the First Jewish Revolt against Rome (66-70 AD) and refers to a “Gate of the Essenes”.

Read more here

I don't see any real evidence of that there. So you think that the essences, having abandoned Jerusalem BEFORE Yeshua died, somehow for some reason came back and owned a house IN Jerusalem? The Essenes, emerged out of disgust with the Pharisees and the Sadducees. This sect believed the others had corrupted the city and the Temple. They moved out of Yerushalayim and lived a monastic life in the desert, adopting strict dietary laws and a commitment to celibacy.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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When you think of the actual Passover, they killed it at the going down of the sun, then roasted it, ate it in the house after the doorposts were sprinkled with the blood. As it says...

None was to remain till morning, so that says to me that it was right around nightfall so it was to be done in the dark, eaten before the morning came.

Also in Luke we read:

Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."

So 'the day' would have to be nightfall of the 14th going into the 15th which would be the day of unleavened bread (1st day a Sabbath)

"Between the evenings"...the 1st of unleavened began on the evening of the 14th (which is actually the beginning of the 15th). You need lamb and Matzah for the seder...
 
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Lulav

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Or the darkness could relate to the time of the killing of the first born in Egypt. The first born Son of God died to bring salvation whereas the first born of Pharaoh died for because of his evil?
Good thought, I'm not against it being both. ;)
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Or the darkness could relate to the time of the killing of the first born in Egypt. The first born Son of God died to bring salvation whereas the first born of Pharaoh died for because of his evil?

That happened at midnight AFTER the lambs were killed and after the seder...
 
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Lulav

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I don't see any real evidence of that there. So you think that the essences, having abandoned Jerusalem BEFORE Yeshua died, somehow for some reason came back and owned a house IN Jerusalem?
Before?

"About 50 Essene kohanim lived in the Essene quarter of Jerusalem between 30 BC and 70 AD."
The Essenes, emerged out of disgust with the Pharisees and the Sadducees. This sect believed the others had corrupted the city and the Temple. They moved out of Yerushalayim and lived a monastic life in the desert, adopting strict dietary laws and a commitment to celibacy.

Not all according to Josephus.
 
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