Many Bible Translations destroys unity.

nChrist · Mar 15, 2018

I want to ask everyone a question. Let's assume that you left your Bible at home, regardless of translation. Are you capable of sharing the Gospel of the Grace of God with others? I would certainly pray for guidance, but I really don't think that I must have a KJV at home. I could have any number of good to excellent English translations of the Holy Bible and a message in my heart. I'll say it again that I like and use the KJV every day, but I know it isn't the most accurate word for word translation of the Holy Bible. I further know that the KJV is not the standard for anything.

bbbbbbb · Mar 15, 2018

nChrist said:
I want to ask everyone a question. Let's assume that you left your Bible at home, regardless of translation. Are you capable of sharing the Gospel of the Grace of God with others? I would certainly pray for guidance, but I really don't think that I must have a KJV at home. I could have any number of good to excellent English translations of the Holy Bible and a message in my heart. I'll say it again that I like and use the KJV every day, but I know it isn't the most accurate word for word translation of the Holy Bible. I further know that the KJV is not the standard for anything.

Yep. I certainly can do that without any particular translation, and God has blessed my efforts - despite my unworthiness.

Wordkeeper · Mar 16, 2018

DeaconDean said:
Even after the last Apostle died, there was no unity.

Here I cite:

"The end of the second century was a period of almost unparalleled diversity in early Christianity. Christian communities dotted the Mediterranean—some of them comprising hundreds of believers, others only a handful. These communities were in no way monolithic. In some localities, the chief Christian presence was Marcionite; in others it was Ebionite; in others it was Gnostic; in others Montanist. For many of these places, Marcionite Christianity, or Ebionite, or Gnostic, or Montanist was not an offshoot of a larger confession, but was the principal form of Christianity that was known. In these places, this was Christianity. Among other things, this means that people throughout the Empire
who professed faith in one God, or two Gods, or thirty-two gods, or 365 gods, were all claiming adherence to the teachings of Jesus. Some of these groups taught that Jesus himself was a divine being, and therefore not human; others taught that he was human and therefore not divine; others taught that he was God the Father, who temporarily became human; others taught that he was eternally distinct from God the Father, a different divine being who had become human; others taught that he was himself two separate beings, one divine and one human. Some of these groups revered the Jewish Scriptures as the oracles of God; others rejected these Scriptures as inspired by an evil deity. Some of these groups maintained a sense of their Jewish identity as Jesus had before them; others rejected Judaism as a falsified religion and Jews as Christ killers. Some of these groups proclaimed the equality of all persons in Christ, Jew and Gentile, slave and free, men and women, and implemented this equality in their church polity, men and women having an equal share in authority and office. Others taught a divinely sanctioned hierarchy, in which women were to be subjugated to men and not allowed to teach or exercise authority. So far as we can tell, all of these groups appealed to written authorities for their views, texts that were allegedly penned by apostles. Some groups subscribed to Gospel accounts written in the names of Thomas or Philip or Peter, or attributed to Matthew or John or Mark. We know of Christians in the TransJordan who adopted a Hebrew Gospel similar to our own Gospel according to Matthew, of Christians in Egypt who used the Gospel of the Egyptians, of others there who accepted the Gospel of the Hebrews, of yet others who subscribed to the Gospel according to Thomas; there were Christians in Rhossus who revered the Gospel of Peter, Christians in Rome who read a synopsis of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Christians in Syria who read an expanded version of this that included John, Christians in Alexandria who read only John, and Christians in Asia Minor who read only Luke, and that in a somewhat truncated form. Some of these groups used only one Gospel as their text of Scripture; others appealed to a wide range of available texts as authoritative."

Studies in Textual Criticism of the New Testament, Bart Erhman, Copyright 2006 by Koninklijke Brill NV, Leiden The Netherlands, Chapter V, The Text of the Gospels at the End of the Second Century, p.72

So the answer to Loverofthetruth, and you yeshuaslavejeff, is there were no versions, no set "bible" when those things were written.

I'm sorry, but truth is truth.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Unity in a group is possible, under the following stipulations:

It is at the local congregational level
It has access to a substantial portion of the OT
It is formed with a mechanism for checks and balances
It recognises a need to move from immaturity to perfection

The congregation at Corinth is an example of a group gone wrong. No checks and balances existed, cliques formed around autocratic "fathers", rabbis: Cephas, Apollos, whose teachings were law. Ideas from secular and/or pagan worldviews were accepted.

The Way requires believers to ask for daily bread, revelation. Some would receive teachings from a psalm, some from a tongue, another from an interpretation. It would be offered up for critique. If a person built with gold and other precious material, the teaching would be a stone, contributing to the temple of the Holy Spirit, of which the foundation was the prophets, with Christ as the chief cornerstone. If a person built with straw and hay, it would be destroyed and the person himself would survive but as through fire. Unlike OT prophets who would be stoned if their prophecies were false.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2018

1 Corinthians 1 New International Version (NIV)
1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those 1)sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be 2)his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

4 I always thank my God for you because of 3)his grace given you in Christ Jesus. 5 For 4)in him you have been enriched in every way—with 5)all kinds of speech and 6)with all knowledge— 7)6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you.
7 Therefore you do not lack 8)any spiritual gift as you 8)eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.
8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that 9)you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, who has called you into 10)fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,a]">[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that 11)all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that 12)you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

All this in just the first 10 verses.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2018

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him.

30 It is because of him that you are in
Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”d]">[d]

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2018

2 And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.a]">[a] 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2018

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”b]">[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.c]">[c]

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2018

15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”d]">[d]

But we have the mind of Christ.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2018

3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?

4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings? (carnal)

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2018

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight.
/// /// /// /// /// /// ///
2 Corinthians 1 New International Version (NIV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

To the church of God in Corinth, together with all his holy people throughout Achaia:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------
============================
2 Corinthians 4:4 New International Version (NIV)

4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore,

if anyone is in Christ,

the new creation has come:a]">[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sinb]">[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

AnticipateHisComing · Mar 16, 2018

kiwimac said:
You are quite wrong but we will, it seems, never agree so this conversation is, for now, over.

Try and refute a single of my arguments. You have not yet and barely try. You repeatedly state your personal opinion, with no scripture to support your statements. You are wrong.

2 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants[a] the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

7 “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

DeaconDean · Mar 16, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
2 To the church of God in Corinth,

And there you go.

At the time of Paul's letter, it was written to a specific church, with specific problems.

Not that we cant learn anything from it. But that is was addressed to a church.

It was not in "circulation" until many years later.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Biblicist · Mar 16, 2018

DeaconDean said:
And there you go.

At the time of Paul's letter, it was written to a specific church, with specific problems.

Not that we cant learn anything from it. But that is was addressed to a church.

It was not in "circulation" until many years later.

God Bless

Till all are one.

As to both of the Epistles to the Corinthians, the audience for Paul’s writings were much broader than with just the city of Corinth.

In 1 Cor 1:1 Paul not only refers to Corinth, which would have included not only the various congregations within Corinth and the surrounding countryside, but he also broadened its target base with "all who in every place call on the name . . .”, which essentially covers the entire known world of the day.

With his intro to 2 Corinthians, Paul appears to narrow the geographic setting of his Epistle to those who are not only within the city of Corinth but to the entire region of Achaia, which is essentially all of southern Greece along with the Peloponnese Peninsula. This apparent 'narrowing' of his second Epistle is understandable as it was a reply to his first Epistle that had its center at Corinth, though it was not limited to just the city itself.

(1Co 1:2 NASB) To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

(2Co 1:1 NASB) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:

In addition, leaving aside that Corinth was the Capital of Achaia, or southern Greece, the all important ship railway (the Diolkis) traversed the Peloponnese Peninsula which was only few Kilometres north of Corinth. This shipway joined the Eastern and Western parts of the Empire, so any document that was being circulated within this highly traversed region would have soon found itself being copied throughout the Empire.

DW1980 · Mar 16, 2018

justbyfaith said:
How so?

As I said

DW1980 said:
If you believe that the KJV is inerrant and inspired, the onus is on you to make that case. Meanwhile, Christians for 2,000 years have believed that the original autographs (written by the Bible writers) were inspired - not human translators or fallible translations (including the KJV). With all due respect, you are departing from what we have held to be true for 2,000 years.

Nobody before the KJV could possibly have held that it was inspired and inerrant. But Christians have always believed that the autographs were. It's therefore KJVOs that are coming up with this new teaching, to the exclusion of all other scholarly research (which by the way also resulted in the KJV itself!). Making the KJV the standard instead of the Greek and Hebrew texts is absurd to me. To take that further and suggest that using any other Bible translation leads to a different Gospel is equally absurd, since it's demonstrably not true (as I said, I use the NIV, NLT and ESV and still see that I need to repent and trust in Jesus for forgiveness). Therefore the onus would be on you to show that this is in fact correct.

BobRyan · Mar 16, 2018

justbyfaith said:
There are slight differences in meaning from translation to translation in every verse. Won't this turn out to change the meaning of the whole Bible from translation to translation? If I change my course by 1 degree every five miles, I will never reach my destination. So I contend that if you are reading a different translation than me, your breed of Christianity will be different from mine. This may indeed be very dangerous for you, if my breed of Christianity is the one, narrow, and ONLY way to eternal life (see Matthew 7:13-14), that would mean your breed of Christianity will take you off course and not bring you into heaven.

And yes I am of the opinion that the KJV is both inspired and inerrant, though I do not intend this to be a KJV-only post, per se.

The KJV was not the first English Bible -- Wycliffe and Tyndale had them before that -- so then is KJV no longer acceptable since it in fact translates differently than Tyndale and Wycliffe (who differ with each other at some points)?

bbbbbbb · Mar 16, 2018

BobRyan said:
The KJV was not the first English Bible -- Wycliffe and Tyndale had them before that -- so then is KJV no longer acceptable since it in fact translates differently than Tyndale and Wycliffe (who differ with each other at some points)?

You are being kind concerning the differences. There was also the Geneva Bible, which had a lot of differences and, in truth, was not as accurate a translation as most of our modern translations. Nevertheless, God used the Geneva Bible as well as those by Tyndale and Wycliffe to effect a great work in Britain which spread throughout the English-speaking world and beyond.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2018

DeaconDean said:
Not that we cant learn anything from it. But that is was addressed to a church.

NOT from "it",

but looking to JESUS the Author and Finisher(to completeness, maturity) of our Faith
we (Ekklesia, not most 'church') learn from Jesus, from His Word, from ABBA YHVH as He Pleases.

DeaconDean · Mar 16, 2018

Biblicist said:
As to both of the Epistles to the Corinthians, the audience for Paul’s writings were much broader than with just the city of Corinth.

In 1 Cor 1:1 Paul not only refers to Corinth, which would have included not only the various congregations within Corinth and the surrounding countryside, but he also broadened its target base with "all who in every place call on the name . . .”, which essentially covers the entire known world of the day.

With his intro to 2 Corinthians, Paul appears to narrow the geographic setting of his Epistle to those who are not only within the city of Corinth but to the entire region of Achaia, which is essentially all of southern Greece along with the Peloponnese Peninsula. This apparent 'narrowing' of his second Epistle is understandable as it was a reply to his first Epistle that had its center at Corinth, though it was not limited to just the city itself.

(1Co 1:2 NASB) To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

(2Co 1:1 NASB) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:

In addition, leaving aside that Corinth was the Capital of Achaia, or southern Greece, the all important ship railway (the Diolkis) traversed the Peloponnese Peninsula which was only few Kilometres north of Corinth. This shipway joined the Eastern and Western parts of the Empire, so any document that was being circulated within this highly traversed region would have soon found itself being copied throughout the Empire.

Here again, as with most, you have missed the point.

At the time of Paul's writings, what "scriptures" or what versions did they have?

As I shown above, you pull Paul out, but as I have shown, there were Christians from all across the Middle East area, who did not use Paul's letters, or just plain old stuck to one type of Gospel.

" Some groups subscribed to Gospel accounts written in the names of Thomas or Philip or Peter, or attributed to Matthew or John or Mark. We know of Christians in the TransJordan who adopted a Hebrew Gospel similar to our own Gospel according to Matthew, of Christians in Egypt who used the Gospel of the Egyptians, of others there who accepted the Gospel of the Hebrews, of yet others who subscribed to the Gospel according to Thomas; there were Christians in Rhossus who revered the Gospel of Peter, Christians in Rome who read a synopsis of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Christians in Syria who read an expanded version of this that included John, Christians in Alexandria who read only John, and Christians in Asia Minor who read only Luke, and that in a somewhat truncated form. Some of these groups used only one Gospel as their text of Scripture; others appealed to a wide range of available texts as authoritative."

DeaconDean Post #132

And here again, there was no set "canon" of just what epistles or Gospels to use until well into the 16th century.

Sure, some of the ECF's listed some books they regarded as "canon", and some of the Historic church "Councils" suggested some, but in reality, there was no set "canon" of scripture set until 1546 by the Council of Trent. Martin Luther refused to make the book of James part of his bible! It wasn't until well into the 6th century that the book of Revelations was officially recognized.

While you point is well taken, so is mine. Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, with specific concerns, about specific problems, at that specific church.

1 Corinthians was written between AD 50-60. And that was after Galatians, and even after the first Apostolic Council meeting in Acts 15.

Were there any other "Christians" in Galatia, Ephesus, Thessalonica, Colossi, Philippi, Rome, that were experiencing "incest", or making a mockery of the Last Supper, etc?

Like I said, they were specific letters, written to specific churches/people, in a specific area.

It wasn't until well into the 1st century that some began to realize the importance of what the Apostles wrote. I'm not saying we can't benefit from them, there are a lot in these letters that we as Christians must learn to go by. On that, you will get no argument from me. What I am saying, is to look at this from the historic perspective.

And once again, before the turn of the fist century, at the time of the Apostles, what "bible", what "scriptures" did the primitive church have? The Masoretic Text did not exist until AD 600. The only "bible" or "scriptures" they had available was the LXX. And that was only of the OT.

The Textus Receptus didn't "officially" exist until the mid 1500's.

How did Christianity survive until the KJV arrived on the scene?

:sigh:

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Mar 16, 2018

One last point.

We are getting terribly "off topic".

There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with using another version. However, if you don't like a particular version, don't use it.

I have provided sufficient evidence that in spite of what somebody says, the KJV is not the standard by which other versions, the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic is to be judged by. If that is their own "personal conviction", God Bless them.

I will not get drawn into any more "off topic" discussions.

God Bless

Till all are one.

bbbbbbb · Mar 16, 2018

DeaconDean said:
Here again, as with most, you have missed the point.

At the time of Paul's writings, what "scriptures" or what versions did they have?

As I shown above, you pull Paul out, but as I have shown, there were Christians from all across the Middle East area, who did not use Paul's letters, or just plain old stuck to one type of Gospel.

" Some groups subscribed to Gospel accounts written in the names of Thomas or Philip or Peter, or attributed to Matthew or John or Mark. We know of Christians in the TransJordan who adopted a Hebrew Gospel similar to our own Gospel according to Matthew, of Christians in Egypt who used the Gospel of the Egyptians, of others there who accepted the Gospel of the Hebrews, of yet others who subscribed to the Gospel according to Thomas; there were Christians in Rhossus who revered the Gospel of Peter, Christians in Rome who read a synopsis of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Christians in Syria who read an expanded version of this that included John, Christians in Alexandria who read only John, and Christians in Asia Minor who read only Luke, and that in a somewhat truncated form. Some of these groups used only one Gospel as their text of Scripture; others appealed to a wide range of available texts as authoritative."

DeaconDean Post #132

And here again, there was no set "canon" of just what epistles or Gospels to use until well into the 16th century.

Sure, some of the ECF's listed some books they regarded as "canon", and some of the Historic church "Councils" suggested some, but in reality, there was no set "canon" of scripture set until 1546 by the Council of Trent. Martin Luther refused to make the book of James part of his bible! It wasn't until well into the 6th century that the book of Revelations was officially recognized.

While you point is well taken, so is mine. Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, with specific concerns, about specific problems, at that specific church.

1 Corinthians was written between AD 50-60. And that was after Galatians, and even after the first Apostolic Council meeting in Acts 15.

Were there any other "Christians" in Galatia, Ephesus, Thessalonica, Colossi, Philippi, Rome, that were experiencing "incest", or making a mockery of the Last Supper, etc?

Like I said, they were specific letters, written to specific churches/people, in a specific area.

It wasn't until well into the 1st century that some began to realize the importance of what the Apostles wrote. I'm not saying we can't benefit from them, there are a lot in these letters that we as Christians must learn to go by. On that, you will get no argument from me. What I am saying, is to look at this from the historic perspective.

And once again, before the turn of the fist century, at the time of the Apostles, what "bible", what "scriptures" did the primitive church have? The Masoretic Text did not exist until AD 600. The only "bible" or "scriptures" they had available was the LXX. And that was only of the OT.

The Textus Receptus didn't "officially" exist until the mid 1500's.

How did Christianity survive until the KJV arrived on the scene?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Another, related, question I frequently ask KJVO folks is, "Are there any Christians in China?" They normally act surprised, stutter, and say, "Of course there are." Then my response is, "How can that be since almost none of them read English, much less us the KJV Bible." Then things really get interesting.

Many Bible Translations destroys unity.

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