How can God be simultaneously a Trinity of Persons, and yet one?

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but I guess then my question becomes why would he say he's the only God though if the goal is to let Israeli understand who God is if lets say it has nothing to do with the trinity. And God the Father here is speaking in reference to being the Father of Israel.

If they are only told he's God and he's Lord and no one else how would that help in regards to understanding the trinity? Wouldn't they assume it's God the father and that's it?
From what I have read regarding the concept of the Trinity, or at least with how we use the non-biblical term Trinity as it applies to the Old Covenant, the consensus appears to be that even though Israel understood the Holy Spirit as the source of Prophecy and that the Son of God was to be Israel's redeemer, that there still did not appear to be an understanding from within their writings that they thought of God (who they knew as their Father), the Holy Spirit and the Son of God as being of one essence.

In spite of the lack of written records that would reveal that Israel possibly understood our concept of the Trinity, does this mean that they did not discuss this among themselves or that they did understand that the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son where indeed One or of one essence - who really knows!
 
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The Times

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Lastly though JESUS sems to do the same thing he speaks of what he hears... so i'm confused by what you're saying with john 16:13. If you're saying like there's a unity I guess this verse goes with that.

John 8:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

The Shekhinah Glory (Father) does not speak and does not do. The LOGOS speaks those words as the same coequal and coeternal being. The Holy Spirit executes those words He has ratified by the two Heavenly Witness.

Think about it for a moment. No created being has seen or heard the Father and yet we have another person claiming that he has, in his honored stead. This requires that the LOGOS must be the same being, yet distinct in person from the Father. There is a bilateral, coequal, coeternal dialogue going on and the trilateral is the Holy Spirit who executes what he has heard, as the Viceroy. The Holy Spirit is the Governor who executes Law and Order, through the LOGOS and the Father recieves the Glory.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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The Shekhinah Glory (Father) does not speak and does not do. The LOGOS speaks those words as the same coequal and coeternal being. The Holy Spirit executes those words it has ratified by the two Heavenly Witness.

Think about it for a moment. No created being has seen or heard the Father and yet we have another person claiming that he has, in his honored stead. This requires that the LOGOS must be the same being, yet distinct in person from the Father. There is a bilateral, coequal, coeternal dialogue going on and the trilateral is the Holy Spirit who executes what he has heard, as the Viceroy. The Holy Spirit is the Governor who executes Law and Order, through the LOGOS and the Father recieves the Glory.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
. nvm about what I had here earlier I get what you’re saying
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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From what I have read regarding the concept of the Trinity, or at least with how we use the non-biblical term Trinity as it applies to the Old Covenant, the consensus appears to be that even though Israel understood the Holy Spirit as the source of Prophecy and that the Son of God was to be Israel's redeemer, that there still did not appear to be an understanding from within their writings that they thought of God (who they knew as their Father), the Holy Spirit and the Son of God as being of one essence.

In spite of the lack of written records that would reveal that Israel possibly understood our concept of the Trinity, does this mean that they did not discuss this among themselves or that they did understand that the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son where indeed One or of one essence - who really knows!
Thx I appreciate the information I was looking for someone who knew a lot about this and I found that learned a lot
 
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but I guess then my question becomes why would he say he's the only God though if the goal is to let Israeli understand who God is if lets say it has nothing to do with the trinity. And God the Father here is speaking in reference to being the Father of Israel.


If they are only told he's God and he's Lord and no one else how would that help in regards to understanding the trinity? Wouldn't they assume it's God the father and that's it?
First, remember that in the OT, and in the NT, no one talked about 'trinity'.

Go back and read all Scripture, with Hebrew and some Greek word studies as the Father guides you, or even just in english if He permits (as He has in the past at times), as you truthfully and with your whole heart and mind and soul seek the Father in heaven and ASK FOR(and KEEP ASKING ! ! ! ) for the Father's Understanding and Wisdom instead of man's.

See that it is man's understanding that has in the past confused you , because it doesn't all line up perfectly with God. (people just cannot understand anything of "SPIRIT" with the natural mind, nor in the ways of men.) .
 
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The Times

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Old Testament did speak of Shekhinah Glory.

‘Let's get away from the Israelites! The LORD is fighting for them against Egypt’” (Exodus 14:24-25). Just the presence of God’s Shekinah glory was enough to convince His enemies that He was not someone to be resisted.

1Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.2And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD'S house. 3And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he isgood; for his mercy endureth for ever. (2 Chronicles 7:1-3)

Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; (Genesis 19:24)

It is actually rendered Yahweh rained down fire from Yahweh.

The first Yahweh is the personhood of the LOGOS. The second Yahweh is the personhood of Shekhinah Glory, who is the Father.

You have other instances of the LOGOS being described as the Angel/Messenger of Yahweh's presence.

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. (Isaiah 63:9)

10But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

11Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where ishe that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

It is apparent that the Israelites rebelled against the Governor who executed the Words of the LOGOS. The Governor being the third member, distinct from the Angel of Yahweh's presence (the LOGOS). They vexed the Holy Spirit, by not complying with what he was to execute, hence they paid with their lives and perished in the desert.

 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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From what I have read regarding the concept of the Trinity, or at least with how we use the non-biblical term Trinity as it applies to the Old Covenant, the consensus appears to be that even though Israel understood the Holy Spirit as the source of Prophecy and that the Son of God was to be Israel's redeemer, that there still did not appear to be an understanding from within their writings that they thought of God (who they knew as their Father), the Holy Spirit and the Son of God as being of one essence.

In spite of the lack of written records that would reveal that Israel possibly understood our concept of the Trinity, does this mean that they did not discuss this among themselves or that they did understand that the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son where indeed One or of one essence - who really knows!
Appreciate speaking with you also you knew a lot too got some good insight that I usually don’t get from people on this topic on here (they don’t seem to have an understanding of the trinity like this) thx for the conversation
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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First, remember that in the OT, and in the NT, no one talked about 'trinity'.

Go back and read all Scripture, with Hebrew and some Greek word studies as the Father guides you, or even just in english if He permits (as He has in the past at times), as you truthfully and with your whole heart and mind and soul seek the Father in heaven and ASK FOR(and KEEP ASKING ! ! ! ) for the Father's Understanding and Wisdom instead of man's.

See that it is man's understanding that has in the past confused you , because it doesn't all line up perfectly with God. (people just cannot understand anything of "SPIRIT" with the natural mind, nor in the ways of men.) .
I was gonna say I got answers to my questions from others now I appreciate your time. But you mentioned something just now that’s interesting no one talked about it. why would no one talk about it? In a way I feel my questions are helping you out here a lot of my generation and the ones surrounding it ask similar questions that Christians/ “Christians” couldn’t answer so some just resorted to atheism. I think it’s importanr we have answers cause nowadays people question everything. .
 
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Ron Gurley

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No created being (MAN? has seen or HEARD the Father...

HMMMM...

EXODUS 3 (NASB)
4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God CALLED to him from the midst of the bush and SAID, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”

2 Samuel 22:14
“The Lord thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice.

Psalm 18:13
The Lord also thundered in the heavens, And the Most High uttered His voice, Hailstones and coals of fire.

Matthew 3:17
and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

John 12:28
Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”

Acts 11:9
But a voice from heaven answered a second time, ‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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No created being (MAN? has seen or HEARD the Father...

HMMMM...

EXODUS 3 (NASB)
4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God CALLED to him from the midst of the bush and SAID, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”

2 Samuel 22:14
“The Lord thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice.

Psalm 18:13
The Lord also thundered in the heavens, And the Most High uttered His voice, Hailstones and coals of fire.

Matthew 3:17
and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

John 12:28
Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”

Acts 11:9
But a voice from heaven answered a second time, ‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’
Ironically Jesus evens says you’ve seen me you’ve seen the father...
 
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The Times

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No created being (MAN? has seen or HEARD the Father...

HMMMM...

EXODUS 3 (NASB)
4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God CALLED to him from the midst of the bush and SAID, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”

2 Samuel 22:14
“The Lord thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice.

Psalm 18:13
The Lord also thundered in the heavens, And the Most High uttered His voice, Hailstones and coals of fire.

Matthew 3:17
and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

John 12:28
Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”

Acts 11:9
But a voice from heaven answered a second time, ‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’

Whenever a voice from Heaven is declared or heard, this is from the LOGOS, the designated spokesman (Living Word) of the Father. The Father does not speak and does not do, for He is the Shekhinah Glory.

At least believe Jesus when he said.....

31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

33Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.35He was a burning and a shining light: (Shekhinah Glory) and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light (Glory).

36But I have greater witness than thatof John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. (John 5:31-38)

As concerning Exodus 3:4, 2 Sammuel 22:14, Psalm 18:13 and the rest, it is easily understood and believed from the testimony of Jesus himself, that no one has heard his (Shekinah Glory) voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jesus also makes a reference to Exodus 3:4 Shekhinah Glory by saying......

35He was a burning and a shining light (Shekhinah Glory): and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light (Glory).

If you correlate the two claims that Jesus made, then you end up with, the only rationale conclusion, that the voice from Heaven is the LOGOS (The Son) and the burning and shining Light is the Shekhinah Glory (The Father). Two personas were present and the Holy Spirit was executing the Words (LOGOS) of the Son, through Moses, who was the shepherd at the time.

10Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.
11Then his people recalled the days of old,
the days of Moses and his people—where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,
12who sent his glorious arm of power to be at Moses’ right hand,
who divided the waters before them, to gain for himself (Holy Spirit) everlasting renown (Holy Spirit), (Isaiah 63:10:12)

Moses at that time, was the shepherd, a man empowered by the Holy Spirit (Power), to whom God sent his glorious arm of POWER (Holy Spirit) to be at Moses's right hand, in executing the voice from Heaven, coming from the LOGOS (The Son), who was with the Shekhinah Glory (The Father). So that is why the author makes the phrase.....

Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,

He, being Moses, the shepherd at that time.

Notice that the term POWER, is a descriptor for the Holy Spirit, who is executing the instructions (Words) of the LOGOS in Heaven. The HONOUR to speak on behalf of the Shekhinah Glory is the Living Word (LOGOS), yet the Shekhinah Glory (The Father) is present as the Light, but does not speak and does not do anything.

In the Genesis account we have the Holy Spirit as the Power of God, executing the instructions of the LOGOS (Honour), Whilst declaring the presence of the Shekhinah Glory, in the declaration "Let there be Light".

Whether it be the burning bush or the Genesis account, as I stated in post #147 below.....

How can God be simultaneously a Trinity of Persons, and yet one?

And post #160 below.....

How can God be simultaneously a Trinity of Persons, and yet one?

That throughout the Old Testament you have the revelation of three personas within the ONE GodBeing, as recorded in Revelation 4:8-11, whereby the THREE (Trinity) descriptor designations are as follows......

Holy (Father), Holy (Son), Holy (Spirit), being correlated to the corresponding distinct personas of Glory (Father), Honour (Son), Power (Spirit).

At least believe Jesus, when he said......

Every man therefore that hath heard (from the LOGOS), and hath learned of the Father (from the LOGOS), cometh unto me.46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:45-46)

And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, (John 5:37)

Believe the Apostle John when he says....

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him (Through The Living Word of His Mouth). (John 1:18)
 
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Ron Gurley

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What is the Shekinah glory?

In the New Testament, Jesus Christ is the dwelling place of God’s glory. Colossians 2:9 tells us that “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,” causing Jesus to exclaim to Philip, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). In Christ, we see the visible manifestation of God Himself in the second person of the Trinity. Although His glory was also veiled, Jesus is nonetheless the presence of God on earth. Just as the divine Presence dwelled in a relatively plain tent called the “tabernacle” before the Temple in Jerusalem was built, so did the Presence dwell in the relatively plain man who was Jesus. “He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him” (Isaiah 53:2). But when we get to heaven, we will see both the Son and the Father in all their glory, and the Shekinah will no longer be veiled (1 John 3:2).

The Shekinah Glory IDEA is NOT a Person of the TRI-UNE GOD!

The LOGOS is the WORD, the ultimate GOOD of God, NOT a Person of the TRI-UNE GOD!
 
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yeah the Trinity has been over-complicated by people who might not have even understood it in the first place, so I don't know why they even spoke about what they don't understand.

personality-wise it is easy to see how two persons who love each other are also one, so 1 + 1 = 3 in that regard, because real love requires mutual love and freedom which implies at least two and which reveals a third.

the Trinity is the inner workings of God. the Trinity is the divine process of God coming to know himself and to become. yes, God can become. I think he proved that when he became a human.

another way to look at it is that... the word personality comes from the word persona. a persona is a mask. think that one over.

from Person - Wikipedia

In ancient Rome, the word persona (Latin) or prosopon (πρόσωπον; Greek) originally referred to the masks worn by actors on stage. The various masks represented the various "personae" in the stage play.[5]

The concept of person was further developed during the Trinitarian and Christological debates of the 4th and 5th centuries in contrast to the word nature.[6] During the theological debates, some philosophical tools (concepts) were needed so that the debates could be held on common basis to all theological schools. The purpose of the debate was to establish the relation, similarities and differences between the Λóγος/Verbum and God. The philosophical concept of person arose, taking the word "prosopon" (πρόσωπον) from the Greek theatre. Therefore, Christus (the Λóγος/Verbum) and God were defined as different "persons". This concept was applied later to the Holy Ghost, the angels and to all human beings.
 
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The miraculous signs of the arrival of God the Holy Spirit at Pentecost:

Acts 2 (NASB)...The Day of Pentecost
1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they (11 apostles) were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing WIND, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of FIRE distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.

God the Son's relationship with God the Father:

John 1 (NASB)
18 No one has SEEN God (the Father) at any time; the only begotten God (the Son) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has EXPLAINED Him.

Man has only SEEN manifiestations of God the Father on planet earth. Angels?

Jesus: "my Father and I are one" (in spiritual nature and essence) - John 10
 
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I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God
God is like a "super person". He has relationship with others built in to his very nature. We have to reach out to others to have relationship with others, but God has this relationship with himself. As God, who else could he be in eternal divine relationship with except himself?
 
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Theophan

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This is something that's bugged me for quite a while and I can't seem to get my head around it.
I constantly see things which, to my mind, seem to contradict, sometimes God is referred to as part or the whole of the Holy Trinity, but then in the Creeds, we profess that we believe in one God.
In short, I struggle with the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in-3 aspect of God

the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit intimate a divine unity of one and the same substance in an indivisible equality; and therefore that they are not three Gods, but one God: although the Father has begotten the Son, and so He who is the Father is not the Son; and the Son is begotten by the Father, and so He who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, Himself also co-equal with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the unity of the Trinity. Yet not that this Trinity was born of the Virgin Mary, and crucified under Pontius Pilate, and buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven, but only the Son. Nor, again, that this Trinity descended in the form of a dove upon Jesus when He was baptized; nor that, on the day of Pentecost, after the ascension of the Lord, when there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, the same Trinity sat upon each of them with cloven tongues like as of fire, but only the Holy Spirit. Nor yet that this Trinity said from heaven, You are my Son, whether when He was baptized by John, or when the three disciples were with Him in the mount, or when the voice sounded, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again; but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son; although the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Universal Faith.

+ St Augustine

37. I know, O Lord God Almighty, that I owe You, as the chief duty of my life, the devotion of all my words and thoughts to Yourself. The gift of speech which You have bestowed can bring me no higher reward than the opportunity of service in preaching You and displaying You as You are, as Father and Father of God the Only-begotten, to the world in its blindness and the heretic in his rebellion. But this is the mere expression of my own desire; I must pray also for the gift of Your help and compassion, that the breath of Your Spirit may fill the sails of faith and confession which I have spread, and a favouring wind be sent to forward me on my voyage of instruction. We can trust the promise of Him Who said, Ask, and it shall be given you, seek, and you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened unto you Luke 11:9; and we in our want shall pray for the things we need. We shall bring an untiring energy to the study of Your Prophets and Apostles, and we shall knock for entrance at every gate of hidden knowledge, but it is Yours to answer the prayer, to grant the thing we seek, to open the door on which we beat. Our minds are born with dull and clouded vision, our feeble intellect is penned within the barriers of an impassable ignorance concerning things Divine; but the study of Your revelation elevates our soul to the comprehension of sacred truth, and submission to the faith is the path to a certainty beyond the reach of unassisted reason.

38. And therefore we look to Your support for the first trembling steps of this undertaking, to Your aid that it may gain strength and prosper. We look to You to give us the fellowship of that Spirit Who guided the Prophets and the Apostles, that we may take their words in the sense in which they spoke and assign its right shade of meaning to every utterance. For we shall speak of things which they preached in a mystery; of You, O God Eternal, Father of the Eternal and Only-begotten God, Who alone art without birth, and of the One Lord Jesus Christ, born of You from everlasting. We may not sever Him from You, or make Him one of a plurality of Gods, on any plea of difference of nature. We may not say that He is not begotten of You, because You are One. We must not fail to confess Him as true God, seeing that He is born of You, true God, His Father. Grant us, therefore, precision of language, soundness of argument, grace of style, loyalty to truth. Enable us to utter the things that we believe, that so we may confess, as Prophets and Apostles have taught us, You, One God our Father, and One Lord Jesus Christ, and put to silence the gainsaying of heretics, proclaiming You as God, yet not solitary, and Him as God, in no unreal sense.

+ St Hilary of Potiers


By the way, several books have been written on this topic alone. Why don't you read some of the writings of the earliest Christians on the Holy Trinity if you really desire to have a more perfect understanding of this dogma?
 
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So why do we often talk about God as one Person, for example Exodus 3:14, we are given that God is called 'I AM WHO I AM', so why is it possible to ignore that and assume that God is three Persons in 1? If God wasn't a singular being, Exodus 3:14 would surely read 'WE ARE WHO WE ARE', no?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

Genesis 18:1-3 1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2And he [that is, Abraham] lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, Three Men stood by him: and when he saw Them, he ran to meet Them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in Thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from Thy servant:

I see why you think your logic makes sense, but it completely neglects other OT scriptures which clearly provide irrefutable evidence of the Trinity.
 
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Jonathan Dahlin

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What do you think of “Christian Beliefs” that the Bible Doesn’t Teach An article specifically about the Trinity is found at What is the Biblical basis for disbelief in the doctrine of the Trinity?, also see Is the Doctrine of the Trinity Polytheistic?. Proceed to that site with great caution, because Lee Woofenden is a fringe teacher of a Swedenborgian cult.
The following are erroneous illustrations of the Trinity:
Western Church: https://leewoof.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/holy_trinity-fresco-by_luca_rossetti_da_orta-1738-9.jpg
Eastern Orthodoxy: https://leewoof.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/trinity-by-andrei_rublev-1411_or_1425-27.jpg
I almost feel like laughing at them.
 
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