I am a newbee partial preterist. Discuss.
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A bit more information as to what "preterism" actually IS. From Theopedia:
------>Most Partial Preterists also believe the term Last Days refers not to the last days of planet Earth or the last days of humankind, but rather to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which God had exclusively with national Israel until the year AD 70. As God came in judgment upon various nations in the Old Testament, Christ also came in judgment against those in Israel who rejected him. These last days, however, are to be distinguished from the "last day," which is considered still future and entails the Second Coming of Jesus, the Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous dead physically from the grave in like-manner to Jesus' physical resurrection, the Final judgment, and the creation of a literal (rather than covenantal) New Heavens and a New Earth, free from the curse of sin and death which was brought about by the Fallof Adam and Eve.
Thus partial preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic ecumenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the Early church fathers. Partial preterists hold that the New Testament predicts and depicts many "comings" of Christ. They contend that the phrase Second Coming means second of a like kind in a series, for the Scriptures record other "comings" even before the judgment-coming in 70 AD. This would eliminate the 70 AD event as the "second" of any series, let alone the second of a series in which the earthly, physical ministry of Christ is the first. Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne, subjugating His enemies, and will eventually culminate in the destruction of physical death, the "last enemy" (1 Cor 15:20-24). If there are any enemies remaining, the resurrection event cannot have occurred.
Thus partial preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic ecumenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the Early church fathers. Partial preterists hold that the New Testament predicts and depicts many "comings" of Christ. They contend that the phrase Second Coming means second of a like kind in a series, for the Scriptures record other "comings" even before the judgment-coming in 70 AD. This would eliminate the 70 AD event as the "second" of any series, let alone the second of a series in which the earthly, physical ministry of Christ is the first. Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne, subjugating His enemies, and will eventually culminate in the destruction of physical death, the "last enemy" (1 Cor 15:20-24). If there are any enemies remaining, the resurrection event cannot have occurred.
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No.....that's NOT a preterist claim (at least not a partial or orthodox preterist claim).A71 said:
From what I quoted above:
Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne
"The church" wasn't taken in 70AD....the Old Covenant was (with the Temple being destroyed).
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That goes back to the Athanasian Creed.....where it states:
"Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His humanity"
When you divide the Trinity....you miss that God Himself died on the cross. He didn't murder (or offer as a sacrifice) His son.
He--the Triune God incarnate-- "laid down His life for His friends"......through Christ.
Hebrews 1:3~The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
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An orthodox preterist commentary of
Matthew (21:33-42)....from Saint George Greek Orthodox Church
Let us briefly review the parable.
First, there is the landowner who plants the vineyard and sets a hedge around it. He digs a winepress and builds a tower. He leases it to vinedressers and then goes away to a far country (v.33). When the harvest time arrived, the landowner sent his servants to receive the fruits (v.34). The vinedressers mistreated the servants by beating one, killing one and stoning another. (v.35). The landowner sends additional servants to receive his fruit and they are rejected in the same manner (v.36). Finally, he sends his son, thinking that vinedressers will respect him (v.37). However, they also killed the landowner?s son (v.39). Upon finishing the parable, Jesus asks the disciples, ?When the landowner comes, what will he do to the vinedressers?? (v.40). The disciples replied, ?He will destroy those wicked men?and lease the vineyard to others who will give him his fruit in due season? (v.41).
Now, let us examine what the parable meant in Jesus? time? In other words, what lesson was Matthew the Evangelist trying to teach. Well, using other passages in Scripture and the Church Fathers, we learn that the landowner (oikodespotes lit. ?master of the house?) is God the Father. The vineyard (ambelos) is the House of Israel (Is.5:7) and the Kingdom of God (v.43, the first verse after today?s passage). The hedge, winepress and tower are Freedom from slavery and Inheritance of the Promised Land. Notice that just like the landowner built these three things in the vineyard, God did most of the work for the Israelites in bring them out of Egypt and into land of milk and honey. Logically, the vinedressers (georgios- lit. ?earth workers?; farmers) are the people of Israel- the Jews. The servants are the Prophets who came to make the people accountable to God but were beaten, stoned and killed. For example, Zechariah the son of Jehoiada (2Chr.24:21) was stoned and Zechariah the son of Berechiah, who was also the father of John the Baptist (Mt.23:35) was murdered and John the Baptist himself (Mt.14, Mk.6,Lk.9) was beheaded. Looking back to the prophet Isaiah, we understand that ?fruit? is justice and righteousness (Is.5:7). It is also the fulfillment of God?s commandments (2Chr.24:20). The landowner?s son is of course Jesus Christ who was crucified.
Upon hearing this parable, a child once asked, ?Why would the landowner send his son if everyone else he sent before was beaten, stoned and killed?? The answer is ?Because of the great love God has for humankind.? 15And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place (2Chr.36:15).~Saint George Greek Orthodox Church
Matthew (21:33-42)....from Saint George Greek Orthodox Church
Let us briefly review the parable.
First, there is the landowner who plants the vineyard and sets a hedge around it. He digs a winepress and builds a tower. He leases it to vinedressers and then goes away to a far country (v.33). When the harvest time arrived, the landowner sent his servants to receive the fruits (v.34). The vinedressers mistreated the servants by beating one, killing one and stoning another. (v.35). The landowner sends additional servants to receive his fruit and they are rejected in the same manner (v.36). Finally, he sends his son, thinking that vinedressers will respect him (v.37). However, they also killed the landowner?s son (v.39). Upon finishing the parable, Jesus asks the disciples, ?When the landowner comes, what will he do to the vinedressers?? (v.40). The disciples replied, ?He will destroy those wicked men?and lease the vineyard to others who will give him his fruit in due season? (v.41).
Now, let us examine what the parable meant in Jesus? time? In other words, what lesson was Matthew the Evangelist trying to teach. Well, using other passages in Scripture and the Church Fathers, we learn that the landowner (oikodespotes lit. ?master of the house?) is God the Father. The vineyard (ambelos) is the House of Israel (Is.5:7) and the Kingdom of God (v.43, the first verse after today?s passage). The hedge, winepress and tower are Freedom from slavery and Inheritance of the Promised Land. Notice that just like the landowner built these three things in the vineyard, God did most of the work for the Israelites in bring them out of Egypt and into land of milk and honey. Logically, the vinedressers (georgios- lit. ?earth workers?; farmers) are the people of Israel- the Jews. The servants are the Prophets who came to make the people accountable to God but were beaten, stoned and killed. For example, Zechariah the son of Jehoiada (2Chr.24:21) was stoned and Zechariah the son of Berechiah, who was also the father of John the Baptist (Mt.23:35) was murdered and John the Baptist himself (Mt.14, Mk.6,Lk.9) was beheaded. Looking back to the prophet Isaiah, we understand that ?fruit? is justice and righteousness (Is.5:7). It is also the fulfillment of God?s commandments (2Chr.24:20). The landowner?s son is of course Jesus Christ who was crucified.
Upon hearing this parable, a child once asked, ?Why would the landowner send his son if everyone else he sent before was beaten, stoned and killed?? The answer is ?Because of the great love God has for humankind.? 15And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place (2Chr.36:15).~Saint George Greek Orthodox Church
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It troubles me not.
But your claim that the Son, the Chief Cornerstone, played no part in crushing those wicked men is polar opposite to what that scripture teaches.
Where do you get the authority to teach the opposite of Scripture?
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Your belief that Matthew 21:40-45 was fulfilled in the first century. Only preterists believe that. Of course, all Christians are preterist when you get down to brass tacks such as this... we only vary by degree.
That's painfully obvious.
I'll spell it out yet again for you.
Jesus promised His thiefs coming would befall 1st century peoples. (Revelation 3:3)
Now, there are two options.
1) He fulfilled that promise and came as a thief upon them, then.
2) He failed to fulfill that promise and did not come as a thief upon them, then.
I say #1 is correct. He fulfilled it.
What say you?
Some branches of Hyper preterism may indeed make such claims... (though Ive not seen the claim that the Church was "taken" anywhere in AD70, except via their flight from Jerusalem to Pella)
Got any links to any preterists making such a claim, or is that merely a straw man?
Atctually it was about AD 68 when John penend those letters... letters containing promises you remain silent on BTW...
And I keep asking, Who do you say is the Chief Cornerstone in that passage?
You going to remain silent on that as well?
I understand why you may feel the need to remain silent, as rendering an answer would only undermine your position that you've been diggin your heels in about.
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The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ALL have the same divine will (THAT is what I believe all of us were "troubled" by).
I appreciate how Brian Zahnd articulates the united will of Jesus and the Father:
------>If you can read Mark 14 slowly and enter into the mood it creates, you can feel the building tension. It is a very dark and foreboding chapter.
It begins with the chief priests and scribes plotting to take Jesus by trickery and murder Him. Pause. These wicked men were plotting the most heinous crime in history. Not homicide or genocide, but deicide — the murder of God. And yet this was the plan of God all along: that His Son would be given over to sin and death that we might be redeemed from sin and death. But God did not cause the wicked intentions of the men who plotted Jesus’ murder. In this we see God’s sovereign purposes being accomplished while never violating the freewill of man. This is the wisdom and power of God. That the most heinous crime in history is now commemorated as Good Friday is the ultimate testimony to the truth that God causes all things to work together for good (Romans 8:28).
The tension is building.
Now we are only hours away from the cross. Jesus and His disciples share a meal in the Upper Room — a meal that will later be known as the Last Supper, though at the time the disciples could not think in such terms (despite Jesus telling them plainly). During the meal Jesus speaks of His body being broken and His blood being shed and He illustrates these mysterious words with bread and wine.
At the end of their supper they sang a hymn. From Jewish tradition we know the hymn that would have been sung that night and toward the end of the song Jesus and His disciples sang these words: “Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar.” (Psalm 118:27b) Before the night was over Jesus would be bound and by the next morning He would be sacrificed upon the altar of Calvary’s cross. What was going through Jesus’ mind as He sang these words, fully understanding they were prophetic of His own impending death?
Now the scene moves to an olive grove lit only by the full moon. The Garden of Gethsemane is such holy ground that we should remove our shoes. I am overwhelmed by these words…
Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup from Me. Nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.
Jesus asked His dear Father to take the cup away. Do we have any idea how horrible the cross was? It was so awful that Jesus asked His Father to remove this ordeal from Him. In His humanity Jesus recoiled from the horror of the cross, but in His love for the Father Jesus was fully surrendered to do His will…no matter what.
~Brian Zahnd - Page 57 of 60 - Full-time pastor. Occasional author. Would-be mountaineer.
I appreciate how Brian Zahnd articulates the united will of Jesus and the Father:
------>If you can read Mark 14 slowly and enter into the mood it creates, you can feel the building tension. It is a very dark and foreboding chapter.
It begins with the chief priests and scribes plotting to take Jesus by trickery and murder Him. Pause. These wicked men were plotting the most heinous crime in history. Not homicide or genocide, but deicide — the murder of God. And yet this was the plan of God all along: that His Son would be given over to sin and death that we might be redeemed from sin and death. But God did not cause the wicked intentions of the men who plotted Jesus’ murder. In this we see God’s sovereign purposes being accomplished while never violating the freewill of man. This is the wisdom and power of God. That the most heinous crime in history is now commemorated as Good Friday is the ultimate testimony to the truth that God causes all things to work together for good (Romans 8:28).
The tension is building.
Now we are only hours away from the cross. Jesus and His disciples share a meal in the Upper Room — a meal that will later be known as the Last Supper, though at the time the disciples could not think in such terms (despite Jesus telling them plainly). During the meal Jesus speaks of His body being broken and His blood being shed and He illustrates these mysterious words with bread and wine.
At the end of their supper they sang a hymn. From Jewish tradition we know the hymn that would have been sung that night and toward the end of the song Jesus and His disciples sang these words: “Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar.” (Psalm 118:27b) Before the night was over Jesus would be bound and by the next morning He would be sacrificed upon the altar of Calvary’s cross. What was going through Jesus’ mind as He sang these words, fully understanding they were prophetic of His own impending death?
Now the scene moves to an olive grove lit only by the full moon. The Garden of Gethsemane is such holy ground that we should remove our shoes. I am overwhelmed by these words…
Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup from Me. Nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.
Jesus asked His dear Father to take the cup away. Do we have any idea how horrible the cross was? It was so awful that Jesus asked His Father to remove this ordeal from Him. In His humanity Jesus recoiled from the horror of the cross, but in His love for the Father Jesus was fully surrendered to do His will…no matter what.
~Brian Zahnd - Page 57 of 60 - Full-time pastor. Occasional author. Would-be mountaineer.
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The Olivet discourse is a reference to Zechariah.
Jesus fights against those nations He gathers to surround Jerusalem just before His coming with His saints.
Jesus defeats them and is seen by every eye which causes all the Jews to mourn.
The seeing of Jesus by the Jews, ends Judaism forever.
Zechariah 12 -
2 “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem.
4 In that day,” says the Lord, “I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.
6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place—Jerusalem.
7 “The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lordbefore them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Did these things happen in 70 AD to the Romans ?
JLB
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Well, Judaism indeed ended forever in 70AD.
I'll let our readers extraoplate the logical implications of that fact.
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From the blog of Fr Ted/Orthodox Priest
https://frted.wordpress.com/2012/09/02/the-rejected-stone-is-the-cornerstone/~
Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures: ‘The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
Homiletic Professor Michael P. Knowles comments on the various last line of the Gospel Lesson about the stone rejected by the builders which comes from Psalm 118:22-23:
Stone carver
“’Have you never read in the scriptures: ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is amazing in our eyes”? Although rabbinic applications of this text to Abraham, David, and the Messiah are apparently of later provenance, and contemporary Jewish interpretations refer either to the literal temple (Sol. 22:7-8;23:4) or to the community of the faithful (1QS 8:7), Jesus boldly applies the passage to himself. He himself is its fulfillment.” in Hearing the Old Testament in the New Testament, pg. 65-66)
Jesus Himself thus uses a Christological rather than literal interpretation of Psalm 118. At the time of Jesus, Jewish interpretation of that same text as Knowles points out referred the text to the temple in Jerusalem or to the Jewish people as a whole.
Jesus’ question to His fellow Jews, “Have you never read in the scriptures….?”, isn’t about just literally reading the words. Of course they had read the words and that is why He can ask about them. They all were familiar with the text. What Jesus challenges them on is their understanding of the text: their interpretation of the words. As is done often in the New Testament, the words of the Old Testament Scriptures – the Jewish scriptures – are interpreted to refer to Christ Himself. Whatever their original context, and whatever other purposes they may have served in Judaism, are superseded by their fulfillment in Jesus Christ.
https://frted.wordpress.com/2012/09/02/the-rejected-stone-is-the-cornerstone/~
Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures: ‘The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
Homiletic Professor Michael P. Knowles comments on the various last line of the Gospel Lesson about the stone rejected by the builders which comes from Psalm 118:22-23:
Stone carver
“’Have you never read in the scriptures: ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is amazing in our eyes”? Although rabbinic applications of this text to Abraham, David, and the Messiah are apparently of later provenance, and contemporary Jewish interpretations refer either to the literal temple (Sol. 22:7-8;23:4) or to the community of the faithful (1QS 8:7), Jesus boldly applies the passage to himself. He himself is its fulfillment.” in Hearing the Old Testament in the New Testament, pg. 65-66)
Jesus Himself thus uses a Christological rather than literal interpretation of Psalm 118. At the time of Jesus, Jewish interpretation of that same text as Knowles points out referred the text to the temple in Jerusalem or to the Jewish people as a whole.
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Who brought Jesus to Pilate? And how did that whole event go?
--------->John 18:28-38~ Then they brought Jesus from Caiaphas to the Roman governor’s residence. (Now it was very early morning.) They did not go into the governor’s residence so they would not be ceremonially defiled, but could eat the Passover meal. 29 So Pilate came outside to them and said, “What accusation do you bring against this man?” 30 They replied, “If this man were not a criminal, we would not have handed him over to you.” 31 Pilate told them, “Take him yourselves and pass judgment on him according to your own law!” The Jewish religious leaders replied, “We cannot legally put anyone to death.” 32 This happened to fulfill the word Jesus spoke indicating what kind of death he was going to die. 33 So Pilate went back into the governor’s residence, summoned Jesus, and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” 34 Jesus replied, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or have others said it to you about me?” 35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own people and your chief priests handed you over to me. What have you done?” 36 Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would fight to prevent me being handed over to the Jewish authorities. But now my kingdom is not from here.” 37 Then Pilate said, “So you are a king!” Jesus replied, “You say that I am a king. I have been born and have come into the world for this reason—to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” 38 Pilate asked, “What is truth?”
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Please tell that to millions of Jews who practice Judaism and are moving toward building the third temple.
He is one person who converted to Judaism.
When Jesus returns, He will end Judaism and remove the wicked from the earth, starting with the false messiah or antichrist.
JLB
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Yes....so why are you asking if those things happened to the Romans in 70 AD? The prophesies are about Jerusalem.
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They don't practice Mosaic Judaism (for instance.....there--thankfully--are no more animal sacrifices)...only bread and wine (that is in remembrance of Him...the Lamb of God that *takes away* the sin of this world).
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The Temple Mount Faithful are a genetically diverse, MULTI ETHNIC people who have invented their own religion and substituted it for the one Moses required the Hebrews to follow. If you would just read Moses then you would have no confusion on this and make unsupportable claims that there are any people on our planet today who observe Biblical Judaism, as codified in the Law of Moses.
Again, THAT Judaism, Talmudic Judaism, was invented by a genetically diverse, MULTI ETHNIC conglomoration of men hundreds of years AFTER Christianity.
It bears no resemblence to the Mosaic Law Judaism personally delivered to Moses By God, etched in Stone, for the Hebrew people to follow.
No Human Being Alive today Practices the Judaism of the Bible.
It ended FOREVER in 70AD. Even Todays Talmudic Jews readily admit this.
You have spelled out the implications of this fact (Biblical Judaism's permanent end) quite well.
Now you just need to accept them.
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A71
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Er no, CJ.
The polar opposite.
The whole point is, as per Hebrews, that Jesus sat down on God's right hand, and God then avenged him.
These things are not that complicated, but man finds a way to complicate them.
So God avenged Jesus by destroying Jerusalem, and the apostate Jews. Very simple.
Where the Preterists get hopelessly lost is in their inability to differentiate at any point between who is being referred to when 'the Lord' is spoken of, leading to the absurd idea that Jesus has already returned.
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