Many Bible Translations destroys unity.

DW1980

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No, I don't. If someone can show that a version other than the KJV is inerrant and inspired and not watered-down, I will gladly replace my KJV with that translation if it is available (the Geneva is not).

Now if any or all of you want to reject the KJV for a watered-down version, that is on you. I will only say that the way to life is strait and narrow. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

If you believe that the KJV is inerrant and inspired, the onus is on you to make that case. Meanwhile, Christians for 2,000 years have believed that the original autographs (written by the Bible writers) were inspired - not human translators or fallible translations (including the KJV). With all due respect, you are departing from what we have held to be true for 2,000 years.
 
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DeaconDean

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If you believe that the KJV is inerrant and inspired, the onus is on you to make that case. Meanwhile, Christians for 2,000 years have believed that the original autographs (written by the Bible writers) were inspired - not human translators or fallible translations (including the KJV). With all due respect, you are departing from what we have held to be true for 2,000 years.

You know, it's funny that the phrase "inerrant" didn't come about until recently.

As a matter of fact, "inerrancy" may be implied, for the most part, since the 1640's, the term used was "infallible".

If I had to chose between "inerrant" and "infallible" (Infallible is just a stronger form of inerrant) I would use "inerrant.

Why?

If you follow what the scriptures teach us from the New Testament, there is no way possible you can "fail". Along with that, there is the view that "inerrant" allows for mistakes, while "infallible" allows for none.

I have been involved in a debate in another thread, where the OP is definitely a "KJV Onlyist"!

In the 1500's, when "textual criticism" was in its "infancy", not long after Erasmus issued his edition, the debate started. Perhaps one of the most famous is the "Comma Johanneum". (1 Jn. 5:7-8)

It wasn't until somebody produced a Greek MSS that contained the passage, that Erasmus conceded and included it. (Even though it was generally believed that 1 Jn. 5:7-8 and the Greek MSS that contained it, was only about 200 years old)

But, with or without those two verses, would the doctrine of the "trinity" stand or fall?

No, simply because the doctrine is seen in some many other places.

And as late as the 1970's, the debate on 1 Jn. 5:7-8 was still raging.

Lets also not forget the last nine verses of Mark 16.

At least two of the oldest Codices, Codex Sinaiticus, and the Vatican's own Codex Vaticanus, (complete NT) neither contain them. That is still being debated today!

There are several scriptures in the King James Version of the Gospels where the phrase "Holy Ghost" is used.

Fact, in the gospels, in the Greek, the phrase "Holy Ghost" cannot be found.

In reference to the "Comforter", the Third Person of the God-head, He is always referred to as "pneuma". We have this term from Luke's account in Acts at Pentecost. Acts was, for all intents and purposes, written before all the Gospels except maybe Mark, which was written around AD 63-66, when Luke was 3/4 through writing Acts.

"Pneuma" meaning "air" is where we get our term "pneumatic" anything "air driven". Luke uses this term when he describes the Holy Spirit descending at Pentecost. (a mighty rushing wind)

In Luke 4:1, we have the phrase Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost.

Luke, writing his gospel, uses the right term. (pneumtoi)

The KJ translators, rendered it wrong. Period!

While "technically" it is an error, it is only an error in rendering. It does not change any fact.

And here is another fact.

Erasmus, when he submitted one of his editions to be printed, the printers did not agree to some of it. They made additions. And to this day, those "additions" are still to be found in the KJV.

"Erasmus did not compile his own Greek text from the manuscripts at his disposal, few as they were; instead, Codices 2e and 2ap themselves served as the printer’s copy for all the NT except Revelation. They still contain Erasmus’ corrections written between the lines of the text and occasionally in the margins, which came from the other four manuscripts, though he made little use of some of them.(50) A comparison between the manuscripts used by the printer and the printed text indicates that the printer did not accept every correction that Erasmus proposed, and that the printer made some revisions not authorized by Erasmus.(51)

For the book of Revelation, Erasmus had only one manuscript (1r). Since the text of Revelation was imbedded in a commentary by Andreas of Caesarea and thus difficult for the printer to read, Erasmus had a fresh copy made. The copyist himself misread the original at places, and thus a number of errors were introduced into Erasmus’ printed text.(52) For example, in Revelation 17:4 Codex 1r and all other Greek manuscripts have the word ajkavqarta (“impure”), but Erasmus’ text reads ajkaqavrthto", a word unknown in Greek literature. In a similar fashion, the words kai; parevstai (“and is to come”) in 17:8 were misread as kaivper e[stin (“and yet is”).(53) These and other errors produced by the scribe who made the copy of Revelation for the printer are still to be found in modern editions of the TR, such as the widely used version published by the Trinitarian Bible Society.(54)
"

50) Clark, “Observations on the Erasmian Notes in Codex 2,” p. 751; Bo Reicke, “Erasmus und die neutestamentliche Textgeschichte,” Theologische Zeitschrift 22 (July–August 1966): 259.

51) Clark, “Observations on the Erasmian Notes in Codex 2,” p. 755.

52) Rummel, Erasmus’ Annotations on the New Testament, p. 38. Some of these errors can conveniently be found in Frederick H. Scrivener, A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament, 2nd ed. (Cambridge: Deighton, Bell, and Co., 1874), pp. 382–83, n. 2.

53) The marginal note in the old Scofield Reference Bible corrects this error (p. 1346).

54) H KAINH DIAQHKH. This version is subtitled The New Testament: The Greek Text Underlying the English Authorised Version of 1611. My copy is not dated, though it was published in 1976. See Andrew J. Brown, The Word of God Among All Nations: A Brief History of the Trinitarian Bible Society, 1831–1981 (London: Trinitarian Bible Society, 1981), p. 130.

Erasmus and the Textus Receptus, William Combs, Detriot Baptist Seminary Journal, Vol. 1, Spring 1996, p.46

It just staggers the imagination what lengths some people go to to justify the KJV Only position.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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3) The answer is: the KJV preserves the integrity of Christ not being satan, while many newer translations TEACH that He is. I will not trust in a Jesus who is the father of lies. Therefore I reject those translations that teach that He is, since trusting in Jesus is essential for salvation; and also those translations teach us that He is un-trustable as the one who said in his heart, I will ascend into heaven; I will be like the Most High; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, on the sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds.
Do you understand the difference between scripture and doctrine? People can interpret scripture in many ways. People may or may not use the same translation while defending their different doctrines.

You use a difference of interpreting of scripture to conclude errors in a translation and then state it sends people to hell.

As to your specific example of morning star, it is absurd. As varying people's interpretation are on Is 14, no Christian is going to leap to your conclusion and profess a doctrine that Jesus is Satan. Understand the morning star is a descriptive title. If you can understand that God is spirit and angels are spirits and Satan is a spirit, then you should understand that this does not teach that Satan is God.

Now if you deliberately try to twist scripture in one translation to slander the whole translation, you are not being honest to the use of scripture. You are being divisive.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.​
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Your saying something does not make it so. The early church revered the writings of Paul but that did not make them scripture for them. Remember the NT church was convinced that Jesus would return soon and so there would be no need for more scriptures. It was the delayed (from the POV of the early church) return of Jesus which created the NT corpus because of the need to provide the teachings of and about Jesus for a second and third generation who had never known Him. It was only as the years went along and the NT writings were quoted along with the OT scriptures that they became part of the corpus of scripture.
You are the one that makes a statement with only your assertion. I quoted scripture in my argument which you have not even addressed. I will add to it.

Matthew 7:28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

Matthew 9:7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.

Matthew 10:1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Now if you can understand that Jesus had authority to speak God's word and people understood it as being divine, then you should be able to understand that people took the apostle's words as divine.

As to your "corpus of scripture". If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Paul's, Peter's, and other's letters were read in the early church along with your established scripture. It was treated in the same God given authority as the OT. Just because it was yet to be tabulated, does not make it God's word. God does not need 300 years and testimony of man to confirm his truth.
As well, to address your point about the NT being considered scripture "...before it was made canon by Catholics...," you are quite wrong. There was no Catholic Church, per se, at the time; this was long before the schisms of the church began to take place and this meeting together in Church-wide councils was how the early church decided these kinds of questions.
You wish to engage in a legalistic argument over the beginning and naming of the Catholic Church.

per se you use

Means you loose.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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So I contend that if you are reading a different translation than me, your breed of Christianity will be different from mine. This may indeed be very dangerous for you, if my breed of Christianity is the one, narrow, and ONLY way to eternal life (see Matthew 7:13-14), that would mean your breed of Christianity will take you off course and not bring you into heaven.
It has been mentioned by myself and others that the message of salvation is maintained in a multitude of translations. God does not make it so difficult to find the truth of his word. You have been asked to show how salvation is only found in the KJV. You don't respond.
Scripture, in any translation says it very simply.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You over exaggerate the importance of differences between translations. As I have said, the doctrine requirements and scripture that supports the doctrine of salvation is very simple and repeated often such that translations don't impact salvation.

Can you provide an example of different translations that you think are critical for salvation. I don't think your "thou shalt not bear false witness" is critical, because it is certainly taught elsewhere in scripture. Besides it is a command, and people go to heaven even after breaking commands.

Most of the translations completely agree with one another on all issues of doctrine. There are some differences which are important, definitely. Some translations omit certain scriptures because of their scholarly theories. Some undercut His divinity or muddy certain scriptures, but overall they all agree on the important things. I could read a NKJV, NIV, ESV, or even NLT and still find everything I need to know to be saved and have a relationship with Jesus Christ. After that, the Lord is more than capable of leading a person to read whatever translation He wants them to. Right now, the Lord has me reading the NKJV. It's not perfect but it is sufficient.
Still waiting for a text that is necessary for salvation that is only in your KJV.
But you continue to assert salvation depends on a particular translation.
So that people will not be deceived by it and thereby lose out on truth and life which is in Christ Jesus.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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You know, it's funny that the phrase "inerrant" didn't come about until recently.

As a matter of fact, "inerrancy" may be implied, for the most part, since the 1640's, the term used was "infallible".

If I had to chose between "inerrant" and "infallible" (Infallible is just a stronger form of inerrant) I would use "inerrant.

Why?

If you follow what the scriptures teach us from the New Testament, there is no way possible you can "fail". Along with that, there is the view that "inerrant" allows for mistakes, while "infallible" allows for none.
Great post, but I will argue against the standard definition of infallible and it requiring inerrancy. Using your argument that infallible has the connotation of not failing, I say it is possible to present what God wishes us to know of him in his word even while few and slight errors are present.

Isaih 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.​

You point out that throughout time especially before electronic reproduction, there have been numerous transcribing errors in scripture. Does any think that salvation is lost to those who read and heard scripture with these errors in them? So the goal of scripture to bring us to God and salvation can survive while having slight errors in the text. Infallibility does not require inerrancy.

You point this out with the example of the Trinity.
But, with or without those two verses, would the doctrine of the "trinity" stand or fall?

No, simply because the doctrine is seen in some many other places.
The fact that scripture repeats crucial concepts multiple times in different words is noted in scripture. This is for the protection of truth in key concepts.

Isaiah 28:10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.”​

The use of multiple texts both reinforces a critical truth and guarantees it is true.

There is an engineering tool that I like to refer to that shows how it is possible for a message to be transferred while containing errors in it. It is called ECC, Error Correcting Code. What this does is pad the original message with additional information such that when slight errors are injected, the correct message is still received. Any slight error is filtered out and is meaningless to the message.

And so I say scripture is infallible, even with slight errors in it.
 
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justbyfaith

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Okay, someone gave a good answer concerning my primary objection to non-KJV translations, morning star doctrine (though not everyone who reads the Bible is a Christian).

But I will continue to hold my KJV to be inspired and inerrant, because I don't want to be cheated out of scriptural content if I read a translation that takes things out. Such as in Luke 9:55-56 and so many other places where there are differences, where entire phrases and even sentences are removed. Someone says, but that doctrine is elsewhere in my (inferior) Bible. Why would you want to read a Bible that is inferior? Would you remove in your heart what translators removed, but which the Holy Spirit intended to be kept in? That one verse might be the clincher for someone to believe in a specific sound doctrine. I know that 1 John 5:7 is the clincher for me concerning the Trinity; if not for that verse I would be wholly Oneness.

Or the Holy Spirit intended a certain doctrine to be held in a specific context, but certain Bibles take it out of one context and place it in another. I don't remember the example, but someone contrary to me showed me once that this was the case, so you will just have to take or leave my word for it.
 
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justbyfaith

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Romans 8:34, Ephesians 4:4 and other passages appear to be preaching universalism in the NIV (not so in the KJV). I also recall reading the NIV and getting the impression that NONE WILL BE SAVED, ALL ARE DESTINED FOR THE LAKE OF FIRE. And again, it was a while ago and I don't remember the specific passage, so you are going to have to take or leave my word for it; but I AM telling you the truth.
 
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DeaconDean

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Great post, but I will argue against the standard definition of infallible and it requiring inerrancy. Using your argument that infallible has the connotation of not failing, I say it is possible to present what God wishes us to know of him in his word even while few and slight errors are present.

Isaih 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.​

You point out that throughout time especially before electronic reproduction, there have been numerous transcribing errors in scripture. Does any think that salvation is lost to those who read and heard scripture with these errors in them? So the goal of scripture to bring us to God and salvation can survive while having slight errors in the text. Infallibility does not require inerrancy.

You point this out with the example of the Trinity.

The fact that scripture repeats crucial concepts multiple times in different words is noted in scripture. This is for the protection of truth in key concepts.

Isaiah 28:10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.”​

The use of multiple texts both reinforces a critical truth and guarantees it is true.

There is an engineering tool that I like to refer to that shows how it is possible for a message to be transferred while containing errors in it. It is called ECC, Error Correcting Code. What this does is pad the original message with additional information such that when slight errors are injected, the correct message is still received. Any slight error is filtered out and is meaningless to the message.

And so I say scripture is infallible, even with slight errors in it.

I have many times over the course of 13 years, said:

"Are there disputed texts? Yes, without a doubt. But all the "core doctrines" that Christianity stands on, none hinge on any disputed text".

And I have said:

"Infallible simply means that if one follows what the scriptures teaches, there is no way I, you, or any other Christian, can fail."

Thus:

"The Word Infallible Means Trustworthy

When referring to Scripture, the term infallible is usually used to mean reliable and trustworthy. It refers to something that is without any type of defect whatsoever. Those who trust its infallible teachings will never be led astray.

Inerrancy Means There Are No Errors Whatsoever"

Source

My comments were directed at the KJV Only crowd.

And I don't care if fault my process or not, the fact remains that the KJ Translators made an "error" in rendering some words and phrases. But also, even though its wrong, it does not change any of the "core doctrines" that Christianity stands on.

Would you accept "The KJ Version is the perfectly preserved word of God"?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Romans 8:34, Ephesians 4:4 and other passages appear to be preaching universalism in the NIV (not so in the KJV). I also recall reading the NIV and getting the impression that NONE WILL BE SAVED, ALL ARE DESTINED FOR THE LAKE OF FIRE. And again, it was a while ago and I don't remember the specific passage, so you are going to have to take or leave my word for it; but I AM telling you the truth.

Listen, if it is your conviction that the NIV renders things completely wrong, fine. Nobody is beating you down over that.

I was in prison for a little while. Upon release, I started attending a church that used the NIV. A girl who fell in love with me, gave me a 1st Edition of the NIV. One Sunday the pastor preached a message out of the NIV that just simply put, was wrong. No ifs, no buts, it was wrong.

Based on the NIV's text of 1 Cor. 7:1, he stood up in the pulpit and preached a message that "no person on the face of the earth should ever get married".

The 1st Edition of the New International Version said:

"It is good for a man not to marry".

Now I understand it has gone through a few revisions since it was first published. Its no longer in there.

But, if it is in error, and I meant completely, such as that passage was, you should not use it again.

I closed mine and even now, it sits on the bookshelf collecting dust.

I just cannot accept the position that the KJV is the "standard" by which all others should be judged. That is wrong, plain and simple.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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The use of multiple texts both reinforces a critical truth and guarantees it is true.

There is an engineering tool that I like to refer to that shows how it is possible for a message to be transferred while containing errors in it. It is called ECC, Error Correcting Code. What this does is pad the original message with additional information such that when slight errors are injected, the correct message is still received. Any slight error is filtered out and is meaningless to the message.

And so I say scripture is infallible, even with slight errors in it.

Ok, lets take this statement as a "standard".

I take it you believe one cannot be saved (Mk. 16:16) or have sins purged unless they are baptized. (Acts 2:38)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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kiwimac

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You are the one that makes a statement with only your assertion. I quoted scripture in my argument which you have not even addressed. I will add to it.

Matthew 7:28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

Matthew 9:7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.

Matthew 10:1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Now if you can understand that Jesus had authority to speak God's word and people understood it as being divine, then you should be able to understand that people took the apostle's words as divine.

As to your "corpus of scripture". If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Paul's, Peter's, and other's letters were read in the early church along with your established scripture. It was treated in the same God given authority as the OT. Just because it was yet to be tabulated, does not make it God's word. God does not need 300 years and testimony of man to confirm his truth.

You wish to engage in a legalistic argument over the beginning and naming of the Catholic Church.

per se you use

Means you loose.

You are quite wrong but we will, it seems, never agree so this conversation is, for now, over.
 
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justbyfaith

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Listen, if it is your conviction that the NIV renders things completely wrong, fine. Nobody is beating you down over that.

I was in prison for a little while. Upon release, I started attending a church that used the NIV. A girl who fell in love with me, gave me a 1st Edition of the NIV. One Sunday the pastor preached a message out of the NIV that just simply put, was wrong. No ifs, no buts, it was wrong.

Based on the NIV's text of 1 Cor. 7:1, he stood up in the pulpit and preached a message that "no person on the face of the earth should ever get married".

The 1st Edition of the New International Version said:

"It is good for a man not to marry".

Now I understand it has gone through a few revisions since it was first published. Its no longer in there.

But, if it is in error, and I meant completely, such as that passage was, you should not use it again.

I closed mine and even now, it sits on the bookshelf collecting dust.

I just cannot accept the position that the KJV is the "standard" by which all others should be judged. That is wrong, plain and simple.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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justbyfaith

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Of course the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic texts are the standard by which we judge everything else (I mean the textus receptus). But I would say that I think that the KJV is the best we have in English.
 
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justbyfaith

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If you believe that the KJV is inerrant and inspired, the onus is on you to make that case. Meanwhile, Christians for 2,000 years have believed that the original autographs (written by the Bible writers) were inspired - not human translators or fallible translations (including the KJV). With all due respect, you are departing from what we have held to be true for 2,000 years.
How so?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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But I will continue to hold my KJV to be inspired and inerrant, because I don't want to be cheated out of scriptural content if I read a translation that takes things out.
You already were cheated out of a lot. (Scriptural)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Of course the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic texts are the standard by which we judge everything else (I mean the textus receptus). But I would say that I think that the KJV is the best we have in English.
That wouldn't help your argument to not be cheated.
 
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DeaconDean

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Of course the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic texts are the standard by which we judge everything else (I mean the textus receptus). But I would say that I think that the KJV is the best we have in English.

You do know that by far, if you take agreement in "text", Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, the Majority text is better than the TR?

And did you also know, that, when considering the Greek texts, 95% of the NT are composed of them, there are none (Zero) that agree 100% with each other?

in the first 8 chapters of John, the TR and the P75, (perhaps the most significant discovery of ancient papyrus) out of 350 variants found, they only agree about 56% of the time. (See Gordon Fee, THE SIGNIFICANCE OF PAPYRUS BODMER II AMD PAPYRUS BODMER XIV-XV FOR METHODOLOGY IN NEW TESTAMENT TEXTUAL CRITICISM, Disertation, for Doctor of Philosophy (Religion), August 1966, University of Southern California, Chapter V, Codex Siniaticus in John 1-9, Table III, p.52)

And the "Textus Receptus" (TR) as it is know now, was an "advertising accident" or "blerb" as it is known?

As a matter of fact, the Masoretic text of the OT is not the language of the OT?

In fact, the MT was written some 1000 years after the canon of the OT closed.

And as a matter of fact, if you were to lay side-by-side the Hebrew from the time of Moses' writing, with that of the Masoretic text, Moses himself couldn't read it.

It really would be better, if you only said the KJV is my personal preference.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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And by the way, to anybody who is interested, when looking back at the "original" languages of the NT, it would be an invaluable resource to purchase "The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, By: Gerhard Kittle, and download the Septuagint. The LXX is significant in that it shows the evolution from Attic Greek towards Koine Greek.

Or, go persus tufts, enter any word in English, and look down the list of "Matching Documents, and there you can see how a Greek word transitioned from the Attic in such documents as those found in Plato, Socrates, etc. There is even the Greek lexicon from Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott.

Very valuable to the serious Greek student.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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