Problems in Medieval Catholicism

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Nothing in particular. Just don't make it binding on Christian consciences.

Don't make the Scriptures binding on Christian consciences?

In general, the Reformed project has failed to create a "godly" society. Perhaps because they ignore their own principle of total depravity.

Where did Reformed theology fail to create a godly society?
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,475
18,456
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,456.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Don't make the Scriptures binding on Christian consciences?

The Problem with Deification (Essay) - Under the Sun

Where did Reformed theology fail to create a godly society?

Look up the Marrow Controversy in Scotland for an excellent example of how the Gospel quickly became forgotten in place of moralism/legalism.

Lutherans are content to separate the civil realm from the means of grace. The institutions of civil society, including the Church, can be guided by human reason and civil righteousness accessible to all people. It does not require theonomy. This is essential to our distinguishing between Law and Gospel.
 
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Don't make the Scriptures binding on Christian consciences?
Yes, as baffling as it is to believe, there are some self-proclaimed Christians who do not feel scripture is terribly important.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

JM

Coram Deo.
Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,337
3,604
Canada
✟738,796.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Well, that is the issue, isnt it?

A church is capable of preaching the word, doing a good job of it, and still doing the rest of what it should.

I primarily see the Church as the body of Christ, the bridegroom, the children of God, the elect of God, the sheep, the good trees, the good samaritans, the prodigals, born again believers, chosen vessels, adopted and reconciled, branches ingrafted in the Vine. I see throughout history where God has gathered her, and caused her to scatter, according to His purposes and for His glory. And although there is merit and value in religious institutions, and unity in doctrines, and all those commendable attributes, she is easily corruptible with earthly money and power. We can look through the windows of history and see where these kinds of downfalls have occured time and again, even continuing in our day. It seems the Church as a whole has her victories and her defeats, but one day Christ shall come and put an end to the invisible war, the spiritual war for the souls of men where God calls His people to fight. Said and done His will, was is and will be done even through the weaknesses within the body of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,475
18,456
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,456.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Yes, as baffling as it is to believe, there are some self-proclaimed Christians who do not feel scripture is terribly important.

The Gospel is the one thing needful for salvation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mark kennedy
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,475
18,456
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,456.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
How do we know what the gospel is?

Certainly, the Gospel can be found in the Scriptures but not everything in the Scriptures is the Gospel.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,475
18,456
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,456.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Is there any other place that the gospel can be found?

I don't think God is limited to speaking to us only through the accepted canon. Luther himself said that if Judas himself preached the Gospel, we would be bound to believe it.

Having said that, the Bible is the one place we can be sure we can hear the Gospel. Not because it is a holy book, but because it tells us about Christ and his completed works for our salvation.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dqhall

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 21, 2015
7,547
4,171
Florida
Visit site
✟766,603.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Was the Reformation necessary? You bet it was. Here's a very brief review of some problems in Medieval Catholicism which to some degree still exist in the RCC today:
  1. The importance of the Sacraments was exalted over the importance of preaching God's word. The seven sacraments (so called) were considered to be the arteries of the body of Christ and the way that the faithful would receive God's grace. The problem is that the sacraments were mechanical. Participants need not understand them, they need only participate in them in order to receive grace. This leads to our next problem.

  2. The church assumed that parishioners were mostly incapable of understanding the Christian faith. Therefore Christian faith must be mechanical. The Bible was not translated into the common language. Mass was said in Latin. Parishioners understood not a word. And often times clergy did not even understand what they were saying. What mattered was not understanding. The unwashed masses were probably incapable of understanding. What mattered was the rituals themselves. Hence an exalted view of the sacraments.

  3. Justification was thought to be a process, not a definitive act of God. Justification was seen as God infusing his righteousness into us and slowly making us more righteous whereby we would eventually become totally justified and thus merit salvation. The problem with this is that it leads to the natural question - "have I become righteous enough to merit salvation?" Those who took this most seriously would obsess themselves with a fearful and minute examination of conscience. This later took the form of confession of sins to a priest along with the priest questioning the parishioner to help them examine their conscience and expose all kinds of sin. But in this system there is never any rest or peace because our sin is unfathomable.
So, in short, the Church took the place of God. Only she could dispense God's grace through her acts (sacraments). She robbed God's people of God's word by effectively denying them the Bible (Latin Mass, no common translations). She made the people of God enslaved to clergy in order to gain a faulty assurance of their own salvation.

So was the Reformation needed? You bet it was. Is it still needed? You bet it is. Many of these issues still persist in Catholicism today.
The Waldenses were an early part of the Reformation movement in Switzerland. The printing press was invented in 1450 in Germany. Martin Luther protested the selling of indulgences by the Roman Catholic Church in 1517. In 1536 Calvin the Protestant fled Catholic persecution in France by going to Switzerland. Puritans fled Church of England persecution by moving to Massachusetts in 1620. In 1635 the reformed Baptist preacher Roger Williams fled persecution by the Puritans to found the colony of Rhode Island. Quakers and Jews were also allowed to settle in his colony.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: mark kennedy
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, in short, the Church took the place of God. Only she could dispense God's grace through her acts (sacraments). She robbed God's people of God's word by effectively denying them the Bible (Latin Mass, no common translations). She made the people of God enslaved to clergy in order to gain a faulty assurance of their own salvation.
Not only robbing the people of God's Word but robbing God of His Glory.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He did not view the medieval Church so thoroughly corrupt that the world was deprived of salvation. His attitude was quite different from the Reformed project of trying to repristinate an imagined primitive Christianity by using the Scriptures as a regulative principle.
Benedict XVI a noted scholar of the Medieval church said thus:

"For nearly half a century, the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side. The Church no longer offered certainty of salvation; she had become questionable in her whole objective form--the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution.

"It is against this background of a profoundly shaken ecclesial consciousness that we are to understand that Luther, in the conflict between his search for salvation and the tradition of the Church, ultimately came to experience the Church, not as the guarantor, but as the adversary of salvation. (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Sacred Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith for the Church of Rome, “Principles of Catholic Theology,” trans. by Sister Mary Frances McCarthy, S.N.D. (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1989) p.196). Who’s in Charge Here? The Illusions of Church Infallibility – White Horse Inn)
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,475
18,456
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,456.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Benedict XVI a noted scholar of the Medieval church said thus:

"For nearly half a century, the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side. The Church no longer offered certainty of salvation; she had become questionable in her whole objective form--the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution.

"It is against this background of a profoundly shaken ecclesial consciousness that we are to understand that Luther, in the conflict between his search for salvation and the tradition of the Church, ultimately came to experience the Church, not as the guarantor, but as the adversary of salvation. (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Sacred Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith for the Church of Rome, “Principles of Catholic Theology,” trans. by Sister Mary Frances McCarthy, S.N.D. (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1989) p.196). Who’s in Charge Here? The Illusions of Church Infallibility – White Horse Inn)

Indeed. There was spiritual confusion by the time of Luther. But that attitude did not pervade the entire medieval church uniformly across time.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Mary7
Upvote 0

Galilee63

Newbie
Dec 14, 2013
2,045
329
Australia
✟43,924.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The Blessed Holy Divine Sacrament is Jesus Christ Himself Present with His Holy Divine Flesh, Holy Divine Precious Blood - read Gods Holy Word - with particular emphasis placed on Holy Discernment asking our Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit to reignite your heart soul mind prior to reading Holy Saint John's Word from God, from Jesus Holy Spirit Himself - John 6:53

John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:55
For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.

It is through and by our Lord Jesus Christ and His Precious Holy Divine Blood that we can be saved - through His Holy Heavenly Divine Blessed Sacraments of Holy Confession and Holy Communion where Jesus has told thousands of His Catholic Saints/Nuns when appearing to them each Century that without receiving Him in Holy Confession and Holy Communion obtaining His Mercy we cannot be saved by Him - instead facing the Just Hand of The Father without His Mercy.

Further, Jesus also has said to Holy Saint Faustina, Holy Saint Padre Pio shown that He stands at His Altars near His Priests changing the Bread and Wine into His Blessed Holy Divine Sacraments of which Jesus says contain His Holy Divine Heavenly Holy Blessings, Holy Gifts and Graces from Him for now and eternally and for Soul Salvation.

Jesus explained that "If only you knew what This Food Is..."

The Marriage at Cana was shown by our Blessed Holy Trinity - through our Lord Jesus Christ that He changed in God The Most High the water into the very best of wine. Our Lord Jesus Christ showed His Disciples that He could multiply fish and whatever food required to feed the thousands. Jesus also showed prior to His Last Supper on top of many of His healings that He could provide rooms without notice with everything provided for He and His Disciples with our Lord Jesus Christ saying "Do this in remembrance of Me". This is for all of our Lord Jesus Christs Priests to give out His Holy Heavenly Divine Precious Blood and Holy Divine Flesh - Himself - of which also contains our Lords Holy Divine Heavenly Mysteries and Holy Blessings Holy Gifts and Holy Graces for now and for our souls eternally and that's the reason satan has attacked our Lords Blessed Holy Sacraments and Blessed Holy Divine Church (Himself) for centuries with Holy Divine warnings from our Lord Jesus Christ to His Priests and Nuns/Holy Saints saying that satan claims so many souls because people are not receiving Him in His Blessed Holy Divine Sacraments of Holy Confession and Holy Communion essential to receive our Lords Holy Blessings Gifts and Graces now and eternally at the hour of death and satan of course has known this for centuries with his evil spirits deterring people from attending our Lords Blessed Holy Divine Catholic Church and attacking some priests of old whom failed to pray The Holy Rosary daily, of whom failed to be prayed for by some Catholics not praying The Holy Rosary not praying The Psalter, not praying our Lords Holy Divine Mercy Novena and Chaplet that our Lord Jesus Christ delivered Himself with 600 Holy Messages in His Holy Word delivered to Holy Saint Faustina to Holy Saint Marie Chambon His Holy Wound Chaplet and to Holy Saint Dominic The Most Holy Rosary from God Himself stating that

"This is the greatest weapon against satan" and
"man/s last mean/s of Salvation" - Holy Confession being the first our Lord Jesus Christ has said in His Holy Word
"Repent and believe in The Good News" - Himself - our Blessed Holy Trinity is The Holy Word - our Lord Jesus Christ not figuratively - Holy Divine Spiriually and Literally just as Jesus Himself is both Spiritually and Literally Present Divine in His Blessed Holy Sacraments and Present in His Holy Sacrament Divine and Holy Tabernacle and Holy Confessional

Our Lord Jesus and Most Holy Mother Mary have warned the world for Centuries appearing both to His Holy Saints right back and prior to Holy Saint Dominic when Jesus Himself appeared to Holy Saint Dominic delivering The Most Holy Rosary of our Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mother Mary - the only Daughter of Holy Saint Anna and Holy Saint Joachim - Solomon Psalm - read it and you will discover that God had chosen Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mother Mary well prior to Her being Born - to be our Holy Divine Queen of Heaven and Earth hearts souls mentioned by God The Most High in His Old Testament - saying that The Psalter/The Holy Rosary He encouraged Saint Dominic to spread to His priests and religious and clergies and Catholics was to be prayed with fervour daily to fight against satan attacking the Catholic Church and His Priests and there are Holy Divine Mysteries and Holy Divine Promises attached by God to our Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mother Marys Holy Rosary including when also Jesus and Holy Mother Mary have appeared to the Children in Fatima and to thousands of His Priests and Religious warning that His Catholic Church satan attacks in order for His Catholic Church not to progress with Him Present in His Blessed Holy Sacraments received by hearts/souls to claim souls without Him at the hour of death dragged to hell because without our Lord Jesus Christ having humble souls approaching Him in His Fount of Mercy in Holy Confession where our Lord Jesus is manifested in His Holy Presence awaiting hearts turning to Him in humility, we do not receive Holy Divine Forgiveness of our sins Jesus has been telling Catholics and Christians for centuries in His Holy Word and to His Priests and Religious Holy Saints now in heaven all by the way mentioned in Gods Holy Word in the Catholic Holy Bible from the beginning.


so many people around the world use the term symbolically when referring to our Lords Holy Divinity Present in His Blessed Holy Divine Sacraments - NO! - our Lords Holy Divine Blessed Sacraments is God, our Blessed Holy Divine Glorious Trinity Himself.


"I am The Bread Of Life" - Jesus says

Jesus the Bread of Life
…52At this, the Jews began to argue among themselves, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.…
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TuxAme

Quis ut Deus?
Supporter
Dec 16, 2017
2,422
3,264
Ohio
✟169,197.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
I can't say I'm surprised that, 500 years later, protestants still can't (or don't, or won't?) understand us. It's still upsetting, though, even if not unexpected.

1. Clearly, we believe that God instituted these sacraments, so they have to be just a little important, wouldn't you think? But to say that we stress the sacraments over preaching the Word is disingenuous. They go hand in hand. If Jesus said to eat His flesh and drink His blood, then the Eucharist is both performing a sacrament and preaching the Word, not just one.

2. You need to present proof of this, but assuming that it is true:

You're trying to retroactively apply the modern education we all benefit from to Catholics from the 1500s. That doesn't work. Most people back then were uneducated. Mandatory K-12 wasn't a thing. I'd assume most kids were getting a few years of schooling, then apprenticing in one of the trades. Child labor laws weren't exactly enacted because kids were busy in school. Most people were illiterate, and clerics were often the most educated men in town. This wasn't a Catholic problem, it was a world problem.

3. Since Scripture suggests that justification is a process (Ephesians 2:8, Romans 5:1, Galatians 5:5), would you have us preach anything else? The fact of the matter is that we hardly, if ever, know if we are "righteous enough". Why do you think we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)? It's not something we should be able to relax about and say "It's finished" until we're actually welcomed into the Kingdom.

The Reformation served its purpose, and abuses were corrected at the Council of Trent. It was ultimately taken too far, and Christianity is left fractured, despite Jesus' desire for us to be one. As long as we continue to misunderstand (at best) and lie about (at worst) each other, Jesus will be left sorrowful over this.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Mary7
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
  • Agree
Reactions: Tree of Life
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
There were a number of groups opposed to Mediaeval Catholicism. We saw the Valdensians arise in the 13th, then the Hussites and Lollards. The latter two were lead or at least inspired, by scholars.
Before that, we saw multiple internal reform movements, from the Cluniac reforms to Francis of Assisi. The Church was far too secular and had lost a lot of its credibility with increasingly extreme claims. This was why there were three Popes for a time, and the constant Guelf and Ghibbeline struggles really did not help.
Even obvious heretics like the Cathars were given support, as the Provencal nobility said: "We see much holiness there", because the Church had left so much behind. One cannot worship both God and Mammon, and the Church as landowner and deeply interested in affairs of the kingdoms, tried in vain to do so.
There were deep undercurrents of dissatisfaction throughout Christendom, which coallesced and then fed into each other, in the Reformation. Luther's movement absorbed the earlier ones and hence the Reformation sometimes was coupled to anticlericalism and such.

The Church easily drifts into worldliness. This is true for all churches, especially if they have accrued some power.
The success of the Reformation, which before the Counter-Reformation probably was a little more than half of Western Christendom, shows the Mediaeval Church had failed significant parts of Europe. The council of Trent and the Counter-Reformation largely acknowledges this. The fact that external reform was so popular and Roman Catholicism then had to engage in Internal reform, speaks volume as to the state ante-Reformation. All human things decay over time, so all churches need revivals, internal reform and a constant vigilance against laxity or heresy. It is the nature of man.

If you look at these earlier movements, and the Reformation itself, the lack of Scripture's availability or preaching in the vernacular, was a big factor. The Church that had Jerome translate into the 'Vulgar tongue' instead of Classical Latin, and that had created Anglo-Saxon Gospel translations for preaching, had largely forgotten itself.
Similarly worldliness and lack of holiness from the priests also played a significant part. This was why their control of Sacrements rankled so much, when they didn't practice what they preach. The anticlericalism boiled over into a rejection of dubiously biblical sacrements as well.
Faith vs Works only really became a big thing due to the Indulgences the Church sold, so this was more a factor of the worldliness of the Church. Whether one or the other was primary had not really mattered until the Church tried to use Works to procure income in liue of Faith.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,812
13,119
72
✟362,418.00
Faith
Non-Denom
So Luther's doctrine of justifcation is an absolute requirement for the Christian life?

Actually, Luther neither could not, nor did not, lay claim to the biblical doctrine of justification by faith in Jesus Christ alone, as originating with himself, so your question is seriously flawed.
 
Upvote 0