Paul vs James who is right?

2tim_215 said:

I don't think he's just talking about the rich, but Christians in general.

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"The rich" in general are not as aware of being disobedient.
"The rich" also can mean someone dirt poor, but "rich" only in their mind , "proud" ,
(not good) , puffed up in self-estimation.

2tim_215 said:

many claim falsely that the Bible supports.

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Sorry, no.
YHVH regulated slavery, never forbade it. Slavery was needed.
Slavery is very common today. (and not regulated YHVH'S Way. YHVH'S Way is good and right and helpful and edifying).

And, btw, everyone is a slave.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

"The rich" in general are not as aware of being disobedient.
"The rich" also can mean someone dirt poor, but "rich" only in their mind , "proud" ,
(not good) , puffed up in self-estimation.

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Yes, you can be rich in spirit, even though poor in substance as well as generous in giving. Is that directed at them as well? The term "rich: usually refers to ones wealth.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Sorry, no.
YHVH regulated slavery, never forbade it. Slavery was needed.
Slavery is very common today. (and not regulated YHVH'S Way. YHVH'S Way is good and right and helpful and edifying).

And, btw, everyone is a slave.

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Yes, out of necessity but not the way conducted throughout history throughout the rest of the world and even today in some nations. The one example we are given in the New Testament Paul asks his friend Philemon for Onesimus freedom. The bottom line and message here is that no man should be enslaved to to another. Paul actually condemns this in 1 Timothy comparing them to whoremongers:

1 Tim 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
menstealers - STRONGS NT 405: ἀνδραποδιστής
ἀνδραποδιστής, ἀνδραποδιστου, ὁ (from ἀνδραποδίζω, and this from τό ἀνδράποδον — from ἀνήρ and πούς — a slave, a man taken in war and sold into slavery), a slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer, i. e. as well one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery, as one who steals the slaves of others and sells them: 1 Timothy 1:10.

The reference in Timothy is not at all what is slavery that YHVH regulated in TORAH in HIS people and what YHVH regulates TODAY..
The ones who are marketing men's souls TODAY by the billions are babylon. (very common, btw) ...

The way of the world (including carnal churches) is not YHVH'S WAY,
so
if you are looking at the world's way, and the way of babylon, this is described in Scripture and will not be undone until JESUS returns.

Wordkeeper said:

He didn't pay the cost, serve others. He didn't ask for terms of peace. He just stuck to mammon, trying to preserve his own neck by pleading, served himself. He didn't believe in Christ's ability to save. He believed in his own ability to whinge. That's not faith. What did he do to demonstrate Christ's ability to save, how was his faith perfected? He isn't saved.

The foolish virgins had faith. They came (were baptized, received spiritual food, the teaching they had to perfect their initial confession, like Israel, Judas) . They weren't allowed in because they had no proof of that faith.

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The person in question has a genuine conversion, but no opportunity to good works. I believe the person is saved through their faith, Romans 4:5, Titus 3:4-7, Ephesians 2:8-9. Someone who never has an opportunity to do good works is not a foolish virgin. When they get saved, they receive enough oil (the Holy Spirit) to last them their whole life. You may not want to study it out because you want to keep your pov, but look up the scriptures I have provided, and if you need more, I can also provide more.

Wordkeeper said:

Actually its very clearly stated that if they realize they can't pay the cost, they should ask for terms of peace.

Literally, in the parable, terms of peace means they realize they don't have the strength to give up all their possessions and they ask God to do the impossible, give them that strength.

James 1:5-11
5But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.7For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,8being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

9But the brother of humble circumstances is to glory in his high position; 10and the rich man is to gloryin his humiliation, because like flowering grass he will pass away.11For the sun rises with a scorching wind and withers the grass; and its flower falls off and the beauty of its appearance is destroyed; so too the rich man in the midst of his pursuits will fade away.

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Isn't that what I said? btw, following Jesus isn't only about ceasing to worship mammon. There is more, so much more, to a relationship with Christ!

Wordkeeper said:

The person is going to ignore other, stronger proof of the divinity of Christ? Looks like he loves the darkness and is only looking for excuses to crawl back in.

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I know someone in particular that was convinced of the Deity of Christ because of the KJV's rendering of Acts 20:28. Maybe they would have come across other, more powerful verses later and been convinced but then again, maybe not, and even if they did their salvation would have been delayed, so I am thankful for their sake that we were in the KJV and not the NET.

justbyfaith said:

The person in question has a genuine conversion, but no opportunity to good works. I believe the person is saved through their faith, Romans 4:5, Titus 3:4-7, Ephesians 2:8-9. Someone who never has an opportunity to do good works is not a foolish virgin. When they get saved, they receive enough oil (the Holy Spirit) to last them their whole life. You may not want to study it out because you want to keep your pov, but look up the scriptures I have provided, and if you need more, I can also provide more.

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Israel received proof that listening to God was better than serving mammon for bread, but didn't follow through, become loyal, buy oil.

Psalms 106:21
21They forgot God their saviour, who had done great things in Egypt;

Judas received proof that listening to God was better than serving mammon for bread, but didn't follow through, become loyal, wear wedding garments, repent from serving mammon.

Luke 10:13, 14
13“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14“But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you.

You cannot escape the fact that the sin of Israel and Judas, Ananias and Sapphire, was their attempts to return to Egypt.

Wordkeeper said:

Israel received proof that listening to God was better than serving mammon for bread, but didn't follow through, become loyal, buy oil.

Judas received proof that listening to God was better than serving mammon for bread, but didn't follow through, become loyal, wear wedding garments.

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Did you read the scriptures I provided?

justbyfaith said:

Did you read the scriptures I provided?

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Do you think God will give water from the Rock and then not give an opportunity for those who drink from it to perfect their faith?

James 2:22,26
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “ANDABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Remember, a genuine conversion is deep, not superficial:

1. God puts everyone in crisis, in Egypt (like Isaac's 12 children)
2. We call out to God
3. Witness God's works in Egypt
4. Leave Egypt
5. Receive water from the Rock
6. Confirm breaking off from Egypt by surrendering all, including life, by picking up the cross, facing the enemy army
7. Resurrection by God
8. Bless the world when their hearts melt away like Rahab.
9. Who in turn sets out to enter rest in Christ, be a blessing to the world.

You don't understand the Gospel because you haven't called out from Egypt yet, do not know what danger you are in. You need to hear Paul's speech to the Athenians. Even the Stoics and the Epicureans understood their danger, and were looking for solutions.

“The unexamined life is not worth living", Socrates.

You didn't read the scriptures I provided, I see.

Wordkeeper said:

Do you think God will give water from the Rock and then not give an opportunity for those who drink from it to perfect their faith?

James 2:22,26
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “ANDABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Remember, a genuine conversion is deep, not superficial:

1. God puts everyone in crisis, in Egypt (like Isaac's 12 children)
2. We call out to God
3. Witness God's works in Egypt
4. Leave Egypt
5. Receive water from the Rock
6. Confirm breaking off from Egypt by surrendering all, including life, by picking up the cross, facing the enemy army
7. Resurrection by God
8. Bless the world when their hearts melt away like Rahab.
9. Who in turn sets out to enter rest in Christ, be a blessing to the world.

You don't understand the Gospel because you haven't called out from Egypt yet, do not know what danger you are in. You need to hear Paul's speech to the Athenians. Even the Stoics and the Epicureans understood their danger, and were looking for solutions.

“The unexamined life is not worth living", Socrates.

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My friend, I am saved to the bone.

justbyfaith said:

My friend, I am saved to the bone.

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From what?

What do you think? Sin, death, and hell.

justbyfaith said:

What do you think? Sin, death, and hell.

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I think the Athenians were faulted for ignorance.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand (unless you are promoting gnosticism), but OK.

justbyfaith said:

I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand (unless you are promoting gnosticism), but OK.

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We are saved from working for earthly gains that perishes, futile living, life ending with no result. Sin, death and hell are manifestations of that life.

mark kennedy said:

I don't know where you got that but it wasn't from James. He is talking about how the rich treat the poor. I don't know what this, 'before man' thing is but the premise here is that in as much as you did for the least of my brethren you did unto me.

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I don't think he's just talking about the rich, but Christians in general. You don't have to be rich in order to buy someone a meal who's hungry or provide some one with a blanket if they're cold. But to tell them to "feel warm" or "full" is not the way we should respond.

mark kennedy said:

That much is true, we do represent a witness, doing your good works openly so to speak.

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Like you imply further down, we are "known by our fruits" and our fruits come from our "good works". And it's those "good works" that Christians do which is what are seen by the rest of the world and which bring glory to God through the eyes of men in a world which doesn't even want to acknowledge that God exists, and let alone who is "good".

mark kennedy said:

Well yes, how we treat one another is something the world takes note of. Through the course of this thread I have did a little research on Onesimus and Philemon. Onesimus was a slave that fled Philemon and Paul sent him back to Philemon with the letter that bears his name. Onesimus became a very important Bishop, the Orthodox still venerate him as a saint. A slave became a leader in the early church because his master had mercy on him, due to the intercessions of the Apostle Paul. That's the least of us become the greatest, and the greatest become servant to all. That's what Paul and James are working on, and it bore fruit.

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To me, the major significance of Philemon is that it shows the Bibles (Gods) viewpoint on slavery which many claim falsely that the Bible supports.

mark kennedy said:

Wisdom is vindicated by her children and grace is known by it's fruit. We are saved for good works, not by them. God is glorified by these good deeds, not the least of which is how we treat one another. If you do it to be seen of men you forfeit the praise that comes from the Father. If we do our good deeds openly God is glorified and we share in the joy that comes from grace.

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I agree with you statement above we are saved "for good works" and not by them. What I'm saying though (and part of what I believe James is conveying) is our justification, which comes about via our faith but also our works as well, in particular with respect to the rest of the world, as we set the example that God wants us to set. As we give our testimony and which serves to prove our sincerity via our actions which thereby justify our position in Christ. As long as we give God all the credit (for our good and positive actions) rather than attempting to glorify ourselves, all will be well. Blessings to you as well.

mark kennedy said:

Grace and peace,
Mark

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Wordkeeper said:

We are saved from working for earthly gains that perishes, futile living, life ending with no result. Sin, death and hell are manifestations of that life.

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Ok.