Eating animals...

S.O.J.I.A. · Mar 9, 2018

pass the ketchup...

GingerBeer · Mar 9, 2018

devin553344 said:
Not to be rude. I would say that only God the Father was without sin. Jesus clearly sinned as I have mentioned from the old testament that fruit and herb was good for meat.

Genesis:
{1:29} And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

scripture says Jesus did not sin.

Willing-heart · Mar 9, 2018

Joseph Lim said:
You cannot compare eating animals to having guns. God gave Adam dominance over all living creatures to, in other words, eat them. (Genesis 1:28) Also, we're humans and biologically, we need food to survive so I do agree with you that we need to kill animals to survive. My point is, however, how does that compare to using guns? Many people have been wishing for a banning/restriction on guns (which is another topic of discussion for another time) because so many innocent lives were taken away. They were available to people who shouldn't have had the guns in the first place.

Most importantly, we don't need guns to kill and stay alive. The first record of firearms date all the way back to 1364. That means for 1364+ years (counting years before Jesus), humans have survived without guns. So for you to say that guns are a necessity for survival, is seriously flawed.

Secondly, I do respect people who choose the vegan/vegetarian way of life. Many of them are fighting against animal cruelty in the slaughterhouse and the way people treat animals - which I think is a valid reason to choose not to eat animals. Genesis 9:3 says, "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything." As you see here, God allowed us to eat animals. God didn't just create all the animals on this earth just for us to look at them and drool. He gave us permission to partake these animals to nourish our bodies. I think God understood that animals have nerve systems that make them feel pain. Therefore, it does not take away, or limit the right for others to kill/eat animals. We need to enjoy God's creation and that is one way of doing that.

Food is a necessity; Guns are a luxury. Those are 2 different things.

Very well said! I’m sure God is far more concerned about our eating habits than us eating animals. So many cannot control themselves and are controlled by what they eat. Jesus said "it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” And the great apostle Paul said (about food), “I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.”

Shempster · Mar 9, 2018

IMO, this discussion is good to have but we all should avoid trying to PROVE the eating of meat as either moral or immoral. All it does is create a deeper division between Christians.
Even if a person could be converted from a carnivore to a vegetarian by such debates, they might still do it for the wrong reasons. I think God wants us to think and behave a certain way from our hearts, not a religious code of behavior.
I think that as a part of spiritual maturity, some people see all conscious life as coming from the creator himself and they respond with love and a pure intention of causing no harm.
Others see absolutely no value in becoming a vegetarian. We should respect that. But those who eat meat should not stifle those of us with a story. Go ahead and hear them out, unless that is, you have a scary feeling in the pit of your gut about it all.

Almost there · Mar 9, 2018

What does the bible say about killing and eating animals?

It's a rhetorical question. The bible very much permits it. Frankly, it assumes it as "normal" as much as it assumes marriage is between a man and a woman.

devin553344 · Mar 9, 2018

GingerBeer said:
scripture says Jesus did not sin.

Can you find for me where it says that, cause it looks like he did to me, but I would like to see. Thanks.

tampasteve · Mar 9, 2018

devin553344 said:
Not to be rude. I would say that only God the Father was without sin. Jesus clearly sinned as I have mentioned from the old testament that fruit and herb was good for meat.

Genesis:
{1:29} And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

No, sorry, in Christianity we say Jesus is God, he is perfect, the only perfect person. If we believe he could sin we are no longer Christians as Jesus would not be God. That literally is a fundamental belief of our faith.

The verse quoted says that fruit and etc. "shall be for meat". However, it doesn't not exclude flesh. Further when the KJV uses "meat", including this case, it means "food" not implying a replacement for flesh necessarily. English used at that time had a different meaning for some words, "meat" being one here.

Monna · Mar 9, 2018

devin553344 said:
But things that have a nervous system do feel pain when we kill them, that would be animals.

Pain is a particular signal sent from a part of a living body announcing that an injury has been inflicted.

Many plants are known to send out signals also announcing that an injury has been inflicted. Often there is an immediate defensive and reparative response, for example bitter-tasting chemicals are excuded at the site so that an animal that has caused the injury (by biting into the leaf or twig) will stop doing so. Some species even release chemicals into the air to alert other neighbouring members of the same species, which then also release the bitter tasting chemicals into their leaves (their "extremities") as a defensive measure. Can somebody explain to me how this is not a plant "feeling pain?" (and even sharing the experience with other close-by "family members.)

It is also known that plants respond to other threats, even engaging in support systems for species friends, or in chemical warfare against enemies and diseases. There is response to other external stimuli. There is communication. At what level do we draw the line on whether or not any species has a "nervous" system?

The subsequent question of course is, should the presence of a "nervous system" and the inflicting of "pain," be the criteria against which we base our choice of food?

In most countries there are laws on how animals are to be killed for food - most of them specifically aimed at minimizing the pain and trauma experienced by the animal. There are usually also laws against mistreating animals even when they're alive. So my comment here is not in any way a defense of the infliction of pain during the slaughtering of animals for food - it is querying the apparent underlying assumption that the existence of a nervous system and the infliction of pain should be the determining factors in deciding what we eat.

tampasteve · Mar 9, 2018

devin553344 said:
Can you find for me where it says that, cause it looks like he did to me, but I would like to see. Thanks.

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 John 3:5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

1 Peter 2:22 He committed no sin and no deceit was found in His mouth

devin553344 · Mar 9, 2018

tampasteve said:
1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 John 3:5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

1 Peter 2:22 He committed no sin and no deceit was found in His mouth

Thanks, I must have been confused. The doctrine is a little strange following it from OT to NT.

dgiharris · Mar 9, 2018

devin553344 said:
I've heard in these forums that guns aren't OK, but yet we eat animals. In the sense of letting living creatures live I would have to say that killing your pets and eating them is evil. Not to be rude. But we use guns to kill and stay alive, and eating of animals is the same, we kill them and eat them to stay alive. Eat and live for another day. But we don't have to, we have beans and eggs and things that don't involve the killing of creatures that have a nervous system. So things without a nervous system don't feel pain when they die. That would be plants and eggs. But things that have a nervous system do feel pain when we kill them, that would be animals.

So the question I have is how do you feel about that?

I would ask you why "you" came up with some arbitrary standard about a nervous system being a requirement in your hierarchy of "okay to kill vs not okay to kill?"

It is possible to feel "pain" without a nervous system. "Pain" is nothing more than a physical reaction telling you something is bad. If you set something lethal next to a plant or even bacteria they will attempt to move away from it as an act of survival. It's just that with plants they move really really slow.

Also in your argument, you equate killing "any" animal as synonymous with killing your pets? That is a weird argument to make, you are trying to make an argument of equivalency yet it falls flat. There are many people who love and even talk to their plants, in effect their plants are their pets. So by your logic these people should not be allowed to eat any plants because plants are their pets???

Basically, your logic isn't very sound and is completely arbitrary. Using your logic, I could easily argue that life is life and that we shouldn't eat "any" life to stay alive because that constitutes evil.

In order for you to have a sound argument you need to:

#1) Define what evil is
#2) Justify your hierarchy for why certain organisms are okay to consume vs others
#3) Explain why morality has any bearing at all in regards to the cycle of life

Every living organism in the known universe requires the consumption/destruction of another living organism in order to survive. So why should organisms with a nervous system be considered special? One could argue that plants are a superior form of life and that animals shouldn't be given preference over plants.

just my few quick thoughts on the matter

devin553344 · Mar 9, 2018

dgiharris said:
I would ask you why "you" came up with some arbitrary standard about a nervous system being a requirement in your hierarchy of "okay to kill vs not okay to kill?"

It is possible to feel "pain" without a nervous system. "Pain" is nothing more than a physical reaction telling you something is bad. If you set something lethal next to a plant or even bacteria they will attempt to move away from it as an act of survival. It's just that with plants they move really really slow.

Also in your argument, you equate killing "any" animal as synonymous with killing your pets? That is a weird argument to make, you are trying to make an argument of equivalency yet it falls flat. There are many people who love and even talk to their plants, in effect their plants are their pets. So by your logic these people should not be allowed to eat any plants because plants are their pets???

Basically, your logic isn't very sound and is completely arbitrary. Using your logic, I could easily argue that life is life and that we shouldn't eat "any" life to stay alive because that constitutes evil.

In order for you to have a sound argument you need to:

#1) Define what evil is
#2) Justify your hierarchy for why certain organisms are okay to consume vs others
#3) Explain why morality has any bearing at all in regards to the cycle of life

Every living organism in the known universe requires the consumption/destruction of another living organism in order to survive. So why should organisms with a nervous system be considered special? One could argue that plants are a superior form of life and that animals shouldn't be given preference over plants.

just my few quick thoughts on the matter

Yeah it seems just wrong that we must kill to survive as our nature requires. Does that make us evil creatures? One might consider that? Maybe one day we will have bodies that do not require the killing of living creatures to survive. I can foresee that possibility.

dgiharris · Mar 9, 2018

devin553344 said:
Yeah it seems just wrong that we must kill to survive as our nature requires. Does that make us evil creatures? One might consider that? Maybe one day we will have bodies that do not require the killing of living creatures to survive. I can foresee that possibility.

Take a step back and ask yourself why exactly do you have a problem with killing living creatures. I'm being serious. You need to step back and strip your morality down to its essence. Why is killing wrong?

What I suspect you will find is that your notion of "why killing is wrong" ultimately stems from your sense of empathy. You then incorrectly apply this empathy to "all living things".

What about light photons? You realize that your skin "absorbs" light photons. Is this evil? You are destroying light photons. Same with Oxygen. You are breathing in O2 and converting it into CO2, that is, you are changing the molecular configuration of Oxygen. Do you have a right to do that? Does that make you evil?

I'm being serious. If you can answer those questions, then use that logic and apply it against your criteria for why killing living things is wrong.

For myself, my empathy only extends to "Sentient" beings. I define Sentient as "I think therefore I am".

I also do not consider all life equal. I do not consider the life of a dog equivalent to the life of an ant. I do not consider the life of a whale equivalent to the life of a Gold Fish.

So I have no problem eating chicken, but I would never eat monkeys or apes because they are very smart and I consider them sentient. Pigs are fairly smart however they aren't quite sentient so I have no problem eating them as well...

So take a step back and ask yourself why why why... until you get to the root essence of what you believe and why. ONce you do that then construct a morality that is tailor made to answer this subject you have broach.

Do that and I suspect you will discover the holes to your logical argument. Patch those holes, and you should stop having a problem with it..

If you still have a problem with it, then I'd have to ask you why you don't just stop eating and whither away and die. I'm being serious. Answer that question honestly and roll that up into the other answers and then you will figure all this out for yourself.

Question everything until you have the "Truth". Not just emotional fluffy feel good crap, but actual logically consistent truth...

Good luck

devin553344 · Mar 9, 2018

dgiharris said:
Take a step back and ask yourself why exactly do you have a problem with killing living creatures. I'm being serious. You need to step back and strip your morality down to its essence. Why is killing wrong?

What I suspect you will find is that your notion of "why killing is wrong" ultimately stems from your sense of empathy. You then incorrectly apply this empathy to "all living things".

What about light photons? You realize that your skin "absorbs" light photons. Is this evil? You are destroying light photons. Same with Oxygen. You are breathing in O2 and converting it into CO2, that is, you are changing the molecular configuration of Oxygen. Do you have a right to do that? Does that make you evil?

I'm being serious. If you can answer those questions, then use that logic and apply it against your criteria for why killing living things is wrong.

For myself, my empathy only extends to "Sentient" beings. I define Sentient as "I think therefore I am".

I also do not consider all life equal. I do not consider the life of a dog equivalent to the life of an ant. I do not consider the life of a whale equivalent to the life of a Gold Fish.

So I have no problem eating chicken, but I would never eat monkeys or apes because they are very smart and I consider them sentient. Pigs are fairly smart however they aren't quite sentient so I have no problem eating them as well...

So take a step back and ask yourself why why why... until you get to the root essence of what you believe and why. ONce you do that then construct a morality that is tailor made to answer this subject you have broach.

Do that and I suspect you will discover the holes to your logical argument. Patch those holes, and you should stop having a problem with it..

If you still have a problem with it, then I'd have to ask you why you don't just stop eating and whither away and die. I'm being serious. Answer that question honestly and roll that up into the other answers and then you will figure all this out for yourself.

Question everything until you have the "Truth". Not just emotional fluffy feel good crap, but actual logically consistent truth...

Good luck

I guess my morality says that I must kill living creatures and plants to survive so I am thankful to God for their sacrifice that I can live another day. Daily I give thanks and for each meal. Does that make sense?

Monna · Mar 9, 2018

devin553344 said:
Jesus clearly sinned as I have mentioned from the old testament that fruit and herb was good for meat.

Actually, if Jesus had sinned, death would have the "right" to hold him. He could not have died for our sins. His resurrection is the clearest sign that he was sinless.

Ron Gurley · Mar 9, 2018

Man has complete dominion and control over the animal kingdoms.(and plants!)

Pass the meat and potatoes!!

Genesis 1 (NASB)
28 B...and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 Then God said,
“Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth,
and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth
which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Leviticus 11:2
“Speak to the sons of Israel, saying,
‘These are the creatures which you may eat from all the animals that are on the earth.

Acts (NASB)
9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray.
10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance;
11 and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground,
12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air.
13 A voice came to him,
“Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”
14 But Peter said,
“By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.”
15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

Romans 14:2
One person has faith that he may eat all things,
but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

Humble me Lord · Mar 9, 2018

@devin553344 , now you are making sense. Your last two sentences in post #93 and all of post #95 make perfect sense. God bless you brother.

devin553344 · Mar 9, 2018

Ron Gurley said:
Man has complete dominion and control over the animal kingdoms.(and plants!)

Pass the meat and potatoes!!

Genesis 1 (NASB)
28 B...and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 Then God said,
“Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth,
and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth
which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Leviticus 11:2
“Speak to the sons of Israel, saying,
‘These are the creatures which you may eat from all the animals that are on the earth.

Acts (NASB)
9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray.
10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance;
11 and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground,
12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air.
13 A voice came to him,
“Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”
14 But Peter said,
“By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.”
15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

Romans 14:2
One person has faith that he may eat all things,
but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

I eat meat, I have also killed my own chickens and ate them and it gave me new perspective on the eating of animals. It was in boy scouts, we had survival training and we had to kill and prepare animals. It was a terrible experience and one that opened my eyes to mercy.

I guess I eat less meat and look at eating animals as cruel. But I can't shake that feeling.

ViaCrucis · Mar 9, 2018

devin553344 said:
Thanks, I must have been confused. The doctrine is a little strange following it from OT to NT.

In the garden God gave Adam and Eve every fruit and plant for food. But God specifically says to Noah, "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything." (Genesis 9:3).

If your conscience is offended by consuming meat, then don't eat meat. But you don't have the right to accuse others of sinning for eating meat when eating meat is not sinful, and is not forbidden in God's commandments. You yourself sin when you do this.

We are not to judge one another over what we eat.

There has never been a doctrine of abstaining from meat, either in the OT or the NT. One can make a personal choice about such matters, according to the dictates of their conscience, but no one can make a command where God has not commanded. That is sinful.

-CryptoLutheran

Kit Sigmon · Mar 9, 2018

devin553344 said:
I've heard in these forums that guns aren't OK, but yet we eat animals. In the sense of letting living creatures live I would have to say that killing your pets and eating them is evil.

According to the Bible, prophetic Nathan told King David this story
"There were two men in one city, the one rich and the other poor.
"The rich man had a great many flocks and herds.
"But the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb Which he bought and nourished; And it grew up together with him and his children. It would eat of his bread and drink of his cup and lie in his bosom, And was like a daughter to him.

4"Now a traveler came to the rich man, And he was unwilling to take from his own flock or his own herd, To prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him; Rather he took the poor man's ewe lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.

Then David's anger burned greatly against the man, and he said to Nathan,
"As the LORD lives, surely the man who has done this deserves to die.
"He must make restitution for the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing and had no compassion."

King David discerned the rich man's deed as evil and even said that he deserved to die...but render this judgement: He must make restitution for the lamb fourfold.

Not to be rude. But we use guns to kill and stay alive, and eating of animals is the same, we kill them and eat them to stay alive. Eat and live for another day. But we don't have to, we have beans and eggs and things that don't involve the killing of creatures that have a nervous system. So things without a nervous system don't feel pain when they die. That would be plants and eggs. But things that have a nervous system do feel pain when we kill them, that would be animals.

So the question I have is how do you feel about that?

There be many ways we stay alive, I've not used a gun to shoot anyone and I've
never used a gun to kill an animal. I have used a knife, a bow and arrow to
for hunting and I've also used a baited wooden animal trap to catch rabbits.
My shooting of a gun, rifle and bow have also been at hay bales with a bullseye put
on it or put a bullseye on a stake.
We grew up very poor and survived by living off the land, dad taught us all to
hunt, fish, trap and how to grow vegetables etc.

I was taught street fighting and some martial arts techniques by my brothers.
I also carry two weapons...God's Word and a weapon, so far I've used God's
Word more than the weapon that I own.

Chapter 8 of 1 Corinthians speaks about being sensitive to conscious.

1 Timothy 4:1-5
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

If you came to my house, I wouldn't serve meat at meal time since I
know how you feel about it.

Eating animals...

Dynamic UNO

Cool and refreshing with a kick!

In Christ Alone.

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