Salvation depends not on human will nor exertion, but it depends on God Only (Romans 9:16).

black.hawk · Feb 13, 2018

fhansen said:
God is the judge, but based on people's choices and actions. He desires that they'll make the right choice but won't violate their wills to force them to do so.

But how should one define "freewill" or the "freedom" to do anything, or not to do it?

Are gay people really "free" to do what they want, or are they not driven to do so by their innate impulse to do so?

Could a straight person cease to be straight anymore so than a gay person could stop being gay?

How could there be any concept of "freewill or freedom" at all, if one's every impulse (or choice) is biologically determined and predisposed by one's social environment?

fhansen said:
Again, does Jesus actually want people to commit evil acts? If God "wants some people to perish", if He prefers that some of His created beings spend eternity in torment, if He wants them to commit evil, He'd be worse than Satan. Instead He leaves us in the hands of our own counsel, and so it becomes a matter of what we want.

Now, this argument is premised on certain assumptions about God and Jesus, which are similar to the assumptions made by Classical physics during the 19th century.

Such as the assumption that "Mass, energy, gravitational forces, and electromagnetism all interacted against the backdrop of the space-time continuum", which assumed that the space-time continuum would never interact with the aforementioned.

However, Einstein's Theory of Relativity was based on his refusal to accept such an axiom in Classical physics; since the axiom is based on the assumption that the space-time continuum would never interact with the other variables.

Thus, Einstein's major breakthrough only came by refuting such an assumption in Classical physics, which was a major turning point in the development of Modern science.

My point is simply, how do you know that Jesus doesn't want people to commit evil acts if it would provide legal and legitimate grounds to get rid of those people on the day of Judgement?

How do you know that the Government wouldn't use a sting operation to frame suspected/known criminals, if it would provide them with legal and legitimate grounds to have them locked up?

Also, where in the Bible does it say that "God is All-merciful" so that he wouldn't predestine some people to suffer for all eternity in hell?

Why wouldn't God predestine some people to be saved, and the rest of them to be damned, if the contrast is necessary to demonstrate his glory, power, and majesty - Which I argue is more important to God than the salvation of human souls?

What Scriptural evidence do we have to say that "God could never be worse than Satan" - Since your argument is premised on the assumption that this could never be the case, but I contend that your assumption is false?

fhansen · Feb 13, 2018

black.hawk said:
But how should one define "freewill" or the "freedom" to do anything, or not to do it?

Are gay people really "free" to do what they want, or are they not driven to do so by their innate impulse to do so?

Could a straight person cease to be straight anymore so than a gay person could stop being gay?

How could there be any concept of "freewill or freedom" at all, if one's every impulse (or choice) is biologically determined and predisposed by one's social environment?

So what do we do? Deny that humans are capable of moral responsibility, choosing between right and wrong? They're so irresponsible that they're practically beasts? That's simply not the reality. If it were then none of us would be blame-worthy or culpable for anything, certainly not deserving of eternal punishment.

black.hawk said:
Now, this argument is premised on certain assumptions about God and Jesus, which are similar to the assumptions made by Classical physics during the 19th century.

Such as the assumption that "Mass, energy, gravitational forces, and electromagnetism all interacted against the backdrop of the space-time continuum", which assumed that the space-time continuum would never interact with the aforementioned.

However, Einstein's Theory of Relativity was based on his refusal to accept such an axiom in Classical physics; since the axiom is based on the assumption that the space-time continuum would never interact with the other variables.

Thus, Einstein's major breakthrough only came by refuting such an assumption in Classical physics, which was a major turning point in the development of Modern science.

My point is simply, how do you know that Jesus doesn't want people to commit evil acts if it would provide legal and legitimate grounds to get rid of those people on the day of Judgement?

How do you know that the Government wouldn't use a sting operation to frame suspected/known criminals, if it would provide them with legal and legitimate grounds to have them locked up?

Also, where in the Bible does it say that "God is All-merciful" so that he wouldn't predestine some people to suffer for all eternity in hell?

Why wouldn't God predestine some people to be saved, and the rest of them to be damned, if the contrast is necessary to demonstrate his glory, power, and majesty - Which I argue is more important to God than the salvation of human souls?

What Scriptural evidence do we have to say that "God could never be worse than Satan" - Since your argument is premised on the assumption that this could never be the case, but I contend that your assumption is false?

This has nothing to do with physics and everything to do with simply the knowledge of God, knowledge that the Church has possessed to one degree or another since the beginning, and that we can possess to one degree or another as individuals. Either way, good and evil are mutually exclusive; God simply does not will evil, as in causing it. If He does then we can have no assurance that heaven will be any better than hell.

black.hawk · Feb 25, 2018

fhansen said:
God is the judge, but based on people's choices and actions. He desires that they'll make the right choice but won't violate their wills to force them to do so.

Again, does Jesus actually want people to commit evil acts? If God "wants some people to perish", if He prefers that some of His created beings spend eternity in torment, if He wants them to commit evil, He'd be worse than Satan. Instead He leaves us in the hands of our own counsel, and so it becomes a matter of what we want.

So, God (or Jesus) doesn't want people to commit evil acts, nor could he ever be the source of evil in this fallen world (And you also said that "good and evil are mutually exclusive")?

Then, how should one explain the meaning of Isaiah 45:7 KJV:-

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

fhansen · Feb 25, 2018

black.hawk said:
So, God (or Jesus) doesn't want people to commit evil acts, nor could he ever be the source of evil in this fallen world (And you also said that "good and evil are mutually exclusive")?

Then, how should one explain the meaning of Isaiah 45:7 KJV:-

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

We look at it in the same way we might look at 2 Pet 2:9 or John 3:15 and following. Does God really want none to perish? Should we try to come up with reasons why these verses might not be saying what they appear to say? Or does it matter that these are rather isolated verses, especially in the case of Isaiah 45:7 dating from some 2700 years ago, and so a bit sketchy to build an entire theology around? For that matter, did God want the original evil in this world, Adam's sin, to be committed, after expressly commanding him not to commit it?

To my mind Isaiah was still pointing to a truth even if perhaps overstated, that God allows evil for His purposes, ultimately to somehow bring an even greater good out of it in the end. He does not plan or determine evil, as if every person's moral choices were predetermined (even though definitely foreknown), or as if He directly causes evil just for the sake of causing evil. Instead He's the indirect cause. Heck, no evil could exist if nothing existed, of course, and the only reason anything exists at all is because He created it. But even if something exists, still no moral evil or sin would occur unless for free will, or the abuse of it-IOW no moral evil would occur unless for evil choices made by His creation, by us. So free will must always be part of the equation because, if not, then God, simply, creates evil. And that means He's worse than Satan since He created Satan; He'd be totally untrustworthy and there'd be no guarantee that heaven is any better than hell. Every case of child torture would've been directly planned and orchestrated by God, for example.

Unless God's will is divorced from the wills of beings who commit evil, then the term "evil" really has no meaning; it's all evil, or all good, or all the same thing.

black.hawk · Mar 7, 2018

fhansen said:
We look at it in the same way we might look at 2 Pet 2:9 or John 3:15 and following. Does God really want none to perish? Should we try to come up with reasons why these verses might not be saying what they appear to say? Or does it matter that these are rather isolated verses, especially in the case of Isaiah 45:7 dating from some 2700 years ago, and so a bit sketchy to build an entire theology around? For that matter, did God want the original evil in this world, Adam's sin, to be committed, after expressly commanding him not to commit it?

God being God, it would be his incumbent task, but no more than a formality to have told Adam not to commit the Original sin.

For God, it was no more than a moral imperative that he told Adam not to commit this evil act, knowing that he would still do it.

But by doing so, God had simply fulfilled what was incumbent on him, by telling Adam not to commit the Original sin.

This was no more, and no less than what is dictated by the rules of logic - Since there can be no moral imperatives at all without one's Knowledge of Ontology and the rules of logic.

fhansen said:
To my mind Isaiah was still pointing to a truth even if perhaps overstated, that God allows evil for His purposes, ultimately to somehow bring an even greater good out of it in the end. He does not plan or determine evil, as if every person's moral choices were predetermined (even though definitely foreknown), or as if He directly causes evil just for the sake of causing evil. Instead He's the indirect cause. Heck, no evil could exist if nothing existed, of course, and the only reason anything exists at all is because He created it. But even if something exists, still no moral evil or sin would occur unless for free will, or the abuse of it-IOW no moral evil would occur unless for evil choices made by His creation, by us. So free will must always be part of the equation because, if not, then God, simply, creates evil. And that means He's worse than Satan since He created Satan; He'd be totally untrustworthy and there'd be no guarantee that heaven is any better than hell. Every case of child torture would've been directly planned and orchestrated by God, for example.

Unless God's will is divorced from the wills of beings who commit evil, then the term "evil" really has no meaning; it's all evil, or all good, or all the same thing.

Overstated?

So, you wouldn't go so far as to say that both good and evil are intertwined, and woven into the fabric of the Creation itself?

That the Creation, human societies, and the human condition itself are innately Manichean - Although God himself is never the direct cause of evil?

That God purposed such evil (for a Greater Good) from the beginning?

That God would always use evil for a good purpose - Since good and evil are intertwined, and woven into the fabric of the Creation itself?

That it's only by direct knowledge of good and evil that humans come to appreciate the difference between joy and suffering, happiness and despair, morality and immorality, righteousness and wickedness, saved or unsaved etc - And so, by experience, reaffirm the positives and eschew the negatives - Which is evil for a Greater Good, ultimately?

KJV Genesis 50:20, Isaiah 45:7, Matthew 17:22-23, Mark 8:31, Luke 9:22, Mark 9:30-32, Luke 18:31-33, John 2:19

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 8, 2018

black.hawk said:
Strictly speaking, the law would condemn everyone without exception

In case no one noticed, this is not true.

Ron Gurley · Mar 8, 2018

The OP challenges the scripturally supported "free will" doctrinal truth.

The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

black.hawk · Mar 8, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
In case no one noticed, this is not true.

Prove it.

fhansen · Mar 8, 2018

black.hawk said:
God being God, it would be his incumbent task, but no more than a formality to have told Adam not to commit the Original sin.

For God, it was no more than a moral imperative that he told Adam not to commit this evil act, knowing that he would still do it.

But by doing so, God had simply fulfilled what was incumbent on him, by telling Adam not to commit the Original sin.

This was no more, and no less than what is dictated by the rules of logic - Since there can be no moral imperatives at all without one's Knowledge of Ontology and the rules of logic.

Formality? Logic? It is the nature of love, the nature of God, to oppose evil.

black.hawk said:
Overstated?

So, you wouldn't go so far as to say that both good and evil are intertwined, and woven into the fabric of the Creation itself?

All creation was created by God, and created good by Him because He's goodness itself. Evil entered the scene by the abuse of a creature's free will; good and evil are allowed to coexist only for a time.

black.hawk said:
That the Creation, human societies, and the human condition itself are innately Manichean - Although God himself is never the direct cause of evil?

No, Eden was not Manichean. The only sense that evil exists within creation is in the sense that all evil is in some manner a lesser good than God's will, and in the case of sin, a less good choice than that which would align with His perfect will. Creation's own inherent inferiority as compared to God's infinite superiority allows for the possibility of Adam abusing his freedom by making an imperfect choice.

black.hawk said:
That God purposed such evil (for a Greater Good) from the beginning?

He certainly foresaw the evil, and deemed it worthwhile to create in spite of it, knowing the beginning from the end.

black.hawk said:
That it's only by direct knowledge of good and evil that humans come to appreciate the difference between joy and suffering, happiness and despair, morality and immorality, righteousness and wickedness, saved or unsaved etc - And so, by experience, reaffirm the positives and eschew the negatives - Which is evil for a Greater Good, ultimately?

We assume that evil can be used, by God, to bring about an even greater good. We cannot assume that God creates it, but does allow it. That line of separation, subtle as it might be, is critical IMO.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 8, 2018

black.hawk said:
Prove it.

How were people saved ?
See?
Simple !
Why do you seem to me to be so mean hearted? (from your law/condemn to death stance)

black.hawk · Mar 9, 2018

fhansen said:
No, Eden was not Manichean. The only sense that evil exists within creation is in the sense that all evil is in some manner a lesser good than God's will, and in the case of sin, a less good choice than that which would align with His perfect will. Creation's own inherent inferiority as compared to God's infinite superiority allows for the possibility of Adam abusing his freedom by making an imperfect choice.

The only exception being Jesus of course:-

John 6:38 - For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Since, Jesus is God himself in the flesh the fact that God came down to earth to live as a human doesn't mitigate that his will is still perfectly aligned with God's will.

Hence, Jesus said, "I and my father are one". John 10:30

This implies that the Son's will is perfectly concordant with the will of his Father.

Thus, it would be impossible for Jesus to make an imperfect choice as in the case of other humans such as Adam.

Otherwise, one would have to deny the divine status of the Son of God, but no Christian would do such a thing.

Edit: No Christian can rightly deny that the Covenant of Salvation as taught by Jesus is perfectly concordant with God's will = Luke 10:27-28, John 11:25-26 and Romans 10:9.

As Mediator between God and Man only Christ can tell you WHAT the Covenant IS, what it entails, but what is NOT the Covenant, also. John 14:6, 1 Timothy 2:5

fhansen · Mar 10, 2018

black.hawk said:
The only exception being Jesus of course:-

John 6:38 - For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Since, Jesus is God himself in the flesh the fact that God came down to earth to live as a human doesn't mitigate that his will is still perfectly aligned with God's will.

Hence, Jesus said, "I and my father are one". John 10:30

This implies that the Son's will is perfectly concordant with the will of his Father.

Thus, it would be impossible for Jesus to make an imperfect choice as in the case of other humans such as Adam.

Otherwise, one would have to deny the divine status of the Son of God, but no Christian would do such a thing.

Edit: No Christian can rightly deny that the Covenant of Salvation as taught by Jesus is perfectly concordant with God's will = Luke 10:27-28, John 11:25-26 and Romans 10:9.

As Mediator between God and Man only Christ can tell you WHAT the Covenant IS, what it entails, but what is NOT the Covenant, also. John 14:6, 1 Timothy 2:5

Yes, I can certainly agree with this. The only reason Jesus cannot possibly make a wrong choice is precisely because He's uncreated, God the Son, eternally begotten, and therefore has no "inherent inferiority" as creation does, to quote myself.

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Salvation depends not on human will nor exertion, but it depends on God Only (Romans 9:16).

black.hawk

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fhansen

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black.hawk

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fhansen

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black.hawk

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yeshuaslavejeff

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Ron Gurley

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black.hawk

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fhansen

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yeshuaslavejeff

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