Literal Interpretation of Bible Prophecy: Help or Hindrance?

claninja · Mar 6, 2018

Ronald said:
The Father has a soul.

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Zechariah 11:8
Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

My point was we don’t “need” to have a soul, as in immortal spirit that lives inside a human body, in order to connect with God.

We have a soul as in being a living soul: living creatures by the breath of life given to us by God. Of which he can take away permanently or restore to eternal life.

For only God is immortal and eternal life is a gift.

who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16

The versus you propose don’t defend that humans have an immortal soul. They just show Gods emotions.

The best verse I can see to defend the immortality of the soul would be :

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

Ronald said:
We become born again and at that time, enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I absolutely agree.

Ronald said:
Whey we die, we go to the Lord.

This is the resurrection. We don’t go to heaven naked, but more clothed.

For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
2 Corinthians 5:2-4

No one awakes until Christ comes:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:23

Ronald said:
When he returns to earth at the Second Coming, he will transform those who have died in Christ and those who remain alive, that is the resurrection, at the 7th Trumpet.

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:14

Notice the verb tense ‘WILL bring’ this is a future verb tense. Next, Bring with him those who have fallen asleep where? Out of the dead into the air.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:16

Look at the context. Why is Paul saying this? Because believers were concerned that believers who have died would miss the resurrection and be without hope?

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:13

But Paul is reassuring them that those who have died in Christ, will not be left in the grave, they will rise also when Christ comes.

claninja · Mar 6, 2018

Ronald said:
The dead he is referring to, as many scriptures do, and Jesus as well, the dead in the faith. Those who have life, have it and receive rewards in the afterlife.

No, he is comparing that the living (believer or not) know they will die. In this context he is talking about physical death and life.

Ronald said:
You are avoiding key verses here: "Now Samuel (who was conjured up by this medium, who apparently was legitimate because, she identified Saul who was disguising himself and described Samuel, whom Saul knew was him),

Did Saul physically see Samuel?

The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
1 Samuel 28:13-14

How do the dead communicate to the living? Through mediums. Most likely the medium was speaking on samuels behalf.

Ronald said:
Samuel said in so many words that the Lord has taken away the kingdom from you and given it to David. He spoke to Saul and described perfectly what God was doing! If you have a problem with this, I don't know what to say. This sort of validates that she was the real deal - not very common today. But this may have been God's intention, since it is His word and we must accept it.

So let’s say, it really was Samuel. Where did Samuel tell Saul he would be the next day?

Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”
1 Samuel 28:19

Ronald said:
Where does it say ... Why don't you do a study on it and find out that He appeared some 10 different times. That could have been done on 10 days or less. That leaves 30 days at least when

Was Jesus a child for one day because we only have 1 childhood story account? No, of course not. Jesus did not go to heaven until his visible ascension. During the 40 days he appeared to many and taught. In order to prove this, you need to provide scripture stating so, not just a guess because the Bible didn’t record everybday from his resurrection to ascension.

Ronald said:
, I AM ASCENDING TO MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER ...

Correct, the verb tense is present indicative. This would mean he was ascending at the very same time he was talking to Mary.

The problem with this agrument, is that there is no time frame. It could be I am ascending at this moment, it could be I am ascending today, it could be I am ascending in 40 days.

When Jesus quoted the OT stating ‘I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob’ in reference to the resurrection, did that mean the resurrection occurred during the time of Moses?

Ronald said:
Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God."

Yes, he would see God. In the last days when he would rise up. Just as Daniel was promised. And just as Jesus promised:

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:40

Ronald said:
didn't respond to what happened to Enoch? He didn't die, he was taken by the Lord. Where?

Not heaven:

By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Hebrews 11:5,13

claninja · Mar 6, 2018

Ronald said:
He led the captive to Paradise and gave them rewards.

What are the gifts given to the captives?

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Ephesians 4:11-12

This is not about OT saints going to heaven, this is about building the body of Christ.

Ronald · Mar 6, 2018

claninja said:
What are the gifts given to the captives?

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Ephesians 4:11-12

This is not about OT saints going to heaven, this is about building the body of Christ.

"...For great is your reward in heaven..." Matt. 5:12, Luke 6:35
There our quite a few verses about our reward(s) in heaven.

Ronald · Mar 6, 2018

claninja said:
No, he is comparing that the living (believer or not) know they will die. In this context he is talking about physical death and life.

Did Saul physically see Samuel?

The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
1 Samuel 28:13-14

How do the dead communicate to the living? Through mediums. Most likely the medium was speaking on samuels behalf.

So let’s say, it really was Samuel. Where did Samuel tell Saul he would be the next day?

Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”
1 Samuel 28:19

Was Jesus a child for one day because we only have 1 childhood story account? No, of course not. Jesus did not go to heaven until his visible ascension. During the 40 days he appeared to many and taught. In order to prove this, you need to provide scripture stating so, not just a guess because the Bible didn’t record everybday from his resurrection to ascension.

Correct, the verb tense is present indicative. This would mean he was ascending at the very same time he was talking to Mary.

The problem with this agrument, is that there is no time frame. It could be I am ascending at this moment, it could be I am ascending today, it could be I am ascending in 40 days.

When Jesus quoted the OT stating ‘I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob’ in reference to the resurrection, did that mean the resurrection occurred during the time of Moses?

Yes, he would see God. In the last days when he would rise up. Just as Daniel was promised. And just as Jesus promised:

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:40

Not heaven:

By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Hebrews 11:5,13

claninja said:
My point was we don’t “need” to have a soul, as in immortal spirit that lives inside a human body, in order to connect with God.

We have a soul as in being a living soul: living creatures by the breath of life given to us by God. Of which he can take away permanently or restore to eternal life.

For only God is immortal and eternal life is a gift.

who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16

The versus you propose don’t defend that humans have an immortal soul. They just show Gods emotions.

The best verse I can see to defend the immortality of the soul would be :

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28

I absolutely agree.

This is the resurrection. We don’t go to heaven naked, but more clothed.

For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
2 Corinthians 5:2-4

No one awakes until Christ comes:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:23

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:14

Notice the verb tense ‘WILL bring’ this is a future verb tense. Next, Bring with him those who have fallen asleep where? Out of the dead into the air.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:16

Look at the context. Why is Paul saying this? Because believers were concerned that believers who have died would miss the resurrection and be without hope?

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:13

But Paul is reassuring them that those who have died in Christ, will not be left in the grave, they will rise also when Christ comes.

Is soul sleep’ biblical? When we die do we go to heaven immediately or at the second coming?

Ronald · Mar 6, 2018

claninja said:
Correct, the verb tense is present indicative. This would mean he was ascending at the very same time he was talking to Mary.

The problem with this agrument, is that there is no time frame. It could be I am ascending at this moment, it could be I am ascending today, it could be I am ascending in 40 days.

Don't cling to me, I must go now and then I'll meet them later is my understanding of that verse. It was necessary, formal and respectful that He would immediately see His Father -- not wait forty days.

claninja said:
By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Hebrews 11:5,13

GOD TRANSLATED HIM, HE TOOK HIM. WHERE? TO BE WITH HIM.
"Not having received the promises IN THEIR LIFETIMES.

"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
and the spirit will return to God who gave it." Gen. 12:7
"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better." Phil. 1:21-23
Amen!

claninja · Mar 7, 2018

Ronald said:
"...For great is your reward in heaven..." Matt. 5:12, Luke 6:35
There our quite a few verses about our reward(s) in heaven.

Correct there are quite a few verses about our reward in heaven........

BUT you used Ephesians 4 as a proof verse that Jesus took souls to heaven. Yet, heaven and souls are mentioned no where in Ephesians 4. In fact it even tells us what the gifts are: teachers, apostles, shepherds,etc... for building up the body of Christ.

Ephesians 4 has nothing to do with Jesus taking OT souls to heaven, but is about giving us grace through Christ and gifts to build the body.

But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Ephesians 4:7,11-12

If Ephesians 4 is about jesus taking OT souls to heaven then you should easily be able to show by the surrounding context.

claninja · Mar 7, 2018

Ronald said:
Don't cling to me, I must go now and then I'll meet them later is my understanding of that verse. It was necessary, formal and respectful that He would immediately see His Father -- not wait forty days.

We will just have agree to disagree.

As scripture doesn’t clearly say that Jesus went back and forth between heaven and earth prior to ascension, it’s not something I am too concerned about.

But I think we can agree he did ascend to the Father

claninja · Mar 7, 2018

Ronald said:
GOD TRANSLATED HIM, HE TOOK HIM. WHERE?

It doesn’t say where. But it does say he didn’t receive eternal life or a heavenly city. And he wouldn’t receive it apart from the body of Christ:

And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:39-40

And he definitely did not ascend to heaven before Jesus’ 1st coming

13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
John 3:13

Ronald said:
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
and the spirit will return to God

Correct, when we die, the breath of life (same Hebrew word as spirit) returns to God and the flesh turns to dust.

This does not mean an immortal soul goes to heaven. But how do we know this?

1. Before Christ no one had ascended John 3:13

2. When Jesus gave up his spirit to the father at Calvary, he had not yet ascendended. John 20:17.

Ronald said:
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better." Phil. 1:21-23

Right, so Paul taught that when a believer dies, they are asleep until Christ’s coming, but he also states that he desires to depart and be with Christ. So how do we reconcile the two passages?

1. Paul believed he was living in the end of the age:

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
1 Corinthians 10:11

2. Paul believed the resurrection would take place in his lifetime.

having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;
Acts 24:15

Ronald · Mar 7, 2018

claninja said:
It doesn’t say where. But it does say he didn’t receive eternal life or a heavenly city. And he wouldn’t receive it apart from the body of Christ:

Gen. 5:24 says God took Enoch and translated him. What do you think that means? Our resurrection is referred to as a translation of sorts, like from one language to another, it's from the physical to the spiritual - Enoch did not die. So as in 1 Thes. 4:17 we will be translated, so was he. We have to take His word.
So because you are baffled about where God took Enoch and it does not work with other scripture, you assume no body passed on to a spiritual plane of existence.

claninja said:
And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:39-40

And he definitely did not ascend to heaven before Jesus’ 1st coming

13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
John 3:13

No one has been to heaven except the one who came down, Jesus.
There are only two alternatives of where Enoch has been ALIVE.
1. By the process of elimination, since heaven was not yet available, not yet prepared (as Jesus said He was going to prepare a place in His Father's house that had many mansions), we must assume another location existed. Bingo! Abraham's bosom, where the righteous went, a part of Sheol that was peaceful - not in the presence of the Father in a higher realm but a peaceful reality, interim place.
2. Since time is a physical dimension, the perspective of heaven during the time of Christ was a place that had yet to be prepared. But God's domain, heaven, is not confined to our time clock. Bingo! It's already there, but to us not yet.
My pastor used to used that phrase, "the all ready but not yet" redemption in heaven.
God gave us time and so our perspective understands things in a linear way. He however sees in the future and heaven is just beyond our ability to grasp.
There are scriptures that would confirm this.
"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." Heb. 9:27
This implies that right after death, judgment. But wait, don't we have to wait until Judgment Day? There is that perspective of time again. Believers go to the Lord because Heaven is outside our time domain and already exists. Unbelievers are judged right after death and so they are ushered into judgment day. Even Billy Graham commented about people waiting for the return of Christ and judgment day, but he said if you die before that, that is your judgment day.
This is not far fetched. Our Christian theology teaches that when we become Christians we are sort of transported back in time to die with Christ. Our sins were paid for 1986 years ago ( in our time domain). The already and not yet realm. There is so much we don't know about the spiritual realm and what we will be like with amazing abilities.

claninja said:
1. Paul believed he was living in the end of the age:

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
1 Corinthians 10:11

The Church Age just got started and has been going forth for 1986 years or so.
"...they were written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the ages have come." (the KJV says "end of the world") Nevertheless, "all things that happened to them", the people of all generations from Abraham to Christ, were written for our admonition. "Ages" translated from aionios, which means also generations, lifetimes, epochs, world. The end of the generations, would make sense, since the generations were from Abraham to Christ. In two gospels we are given Christ's genealogy and so that is my interpretation of that verse.

claninja said:
2. Paul believed the resurrection would take place in his lifetime.

having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;
Acts 24:15

I thought you said that being born again was the first resurrection?
If he believed in the resurrection during his lifetime, then it didn't happen and that confirms that the first resurrection IS NOT WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN.
God's Word is given to us with the intention of Christ's Second Coming as being imminent. Otherwise we would be lax and lose hope. We need to be sober and alert, prepared "as if it will come today or tomorrow or in our lifetime". I believe this sense of immanency existed throughout the Church Age.

claninja · Mar 8, 2018

Ronald said:
Gen. 5:24 says God took Enoch and translated him.

Correct

Ronald said:
What do you think that means?

He was taken by God so he would not experience death:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Does this mean he went to heaven to be with the Father? No

Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

So where was Enoch? The Bible does not say. So anything said is merely making and educated guess. My educated guess, is Sheol.

It appears you agree that he went to Sheol (righteous side):

Ronald said:
Bingo! Abraham's bosom, where the righteous went, a part of Sheol that was peaceful - not in the presence of the Father in a higher realm but a peaceful reality, interim place.

Ronald said:
Since time is a physical dimension, the perspective of heaven during the time of Christ was a place that had yet to be prepared. But God's domain, heaven, is not confined to our time clock. Bingo! It's already there, but to us not yet.

This is also a possibility (although not clearly stated in scripture). Since heaven is outside of time, believers may get to heaven, in a blink of eye, at the same time, regardless of when the believer physically died.

Ronald said:
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." Heb. 9:27
This implies that right after death, judgment. But wait, don't we have to wait until Judgment Day? There is that perspective of time again. Believers go to the Lord because Heaven is outside our time domain and already exists. Unbelievers are judged right after death and so they are ushered into judgment day. Even Billy Graham commented about people waiting for the return of Christ and judgment day, but he said if you die before that, that is your judgment day.

I can totally agree with this. To me, this wouldn't be immortal souls all floating to heaven at the same time, it would be the resurrection.

Ronald said:
The already and not yet realm. There is so much we don't know about the spiritual realm

Agree

Ronald said:
The end of the generations, would make sense, since the generations were from Abraham to Christ. In two gospels we are given Christ's genealogy and so that is my interpretation of that verse.

Could you provide scripture where aionon is defined as generations? from my search I could not. Typically if it is about generation, the word generation is included in the text (ephesians 3:21 for example: to him be glory through all generation, forever and ever).

My interpretation for the end of the ages = the end of the old covenant age.

Ronald said:
I thought you said that being born again was the first resurrection?

In revelation, yes, the 1st resurrection is being born again.

Ronald said:
If he believed in the resurrection during his lifetime, then it didn't happen and that confirms that the first resurrection IS NOT WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN.

This argument doesn't make sense.

Paul did believe there was ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the just and unjust. Was Paul wrong?

Do those who are born again (raised from spiritual death) have to worry about the 2nd death?

Ronald said:
God's Word is given to us with the intention of Christ's Second Coming as being imminent. Otherwise we would be lax and lose hope.

If you knew Christ wasn't coming for another 1000 years, would you lax and lose hope?

Ronald · Mar 8, 2018

claninja said:
So where was Enoch? The Bible does not say. So anything said is merely making and educated guess. My educated guess, is Sheol.

It appears you agree that he went to Sheol (righteous side):

That is the most likely place.

claninja said:
This is also a possibility (although not clearly stated in scripture). Since heaven is outside of time, believers may get to heaven, in a blink of eye, at the same time, regardless of when the believer physically died.

Good, you are a little flexible. The Bible does not give us much about the spiritual realm, but we do know that it is not confined to our time domain.

claninja said:
Could you provide scripture where aionon is defined as generations? from my search I could not. Typically if it is about generation, the word generation is included in the text (ephesians 3:21 for example: to him be glory through all generation, forever and ever).

That can be translated for ages and ages.
In 1 Cor. 10:11 ASV, "ends of the ages are come." "generations" can be used. "aion" and aionios can mean forever, ever, everlasting and even eternal but when it's used to describe a temporal thing, eternal should not be used. Even everlasting implies a never ending state but temporal things aren't. So age-during or age-lasting works better.
EX:
"He stood and measured the earth: He beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow; His ways are everlasting." Hab. 3:6 ASV. These are the same words used to describe different things. Mountains don't last for ever, nor are hills perpetual, they will pass away. Therefore age- lasting mountains or hills fits better. Then "His ways are not then age-lasting, they are eternal.
"But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him and His righteousness unto children's children." Psalm 103:17 KJV
So here everlasting cannot mean eternal/eternity. That would then read from eternity to eternity. But the verse speaks of children - generations. So a more accurate translation which is one of my favorites in Young's Literal Translation:
"And the kindness of Jehovah is from age even unto age on those fearing Him, and His righteousness to sons' sons."
The point is, when you see a verse that describes something temporal that will pass away and the translation say everlasting or eternal, it shouldn't. Only God, His domain and our salvation should use eternal. And know that "everlasting" is most likely age-lasting.
Ex. 12:17 speaks of observing the Feast of Unleavened Bread, throughout your generations as an everlasting ordinance. There generations are temporal, right. We will all come to a point when we don't procreate anymore when we receive new bodies.
God gave the Israelites statute like burning the oil in the Temple -forever is used. That was temporal and was destroyed. So obviously that translation referred to their generations, ages.

claninja said:
Paul did believe there was ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the just and unjust. Was Paul wrong?

You said that the first resurrection was when we were born again!
If this is true, Paul experience his resurrection. But it's not the first resurrection. Being born from above is not the same thing as what Jesus experienced. He received a new body capable of entering the spiritual realm and physical realm. It is an eternal body. The second resurrection deals with those who didn't receive it the first time around prior to the Millennial Kingdom. As the Bible says, after 1000 years, Satan will be released once again to tempt those who were born during the Millennial Kingdom but have not received Christ. Those who die in Christ during this time period will be resurrected after the 1000 years.
But I'm talking to an Amillennialist -- oops.

claninja said:

Do those who are born again (raised from spiritual death) have to worry about the 2nd death?

Click to expand...

Your question is faulty. Spiritual death means separation from God.
What I think you mean is do Christians worry about the second death? No. The Bible is clear in Rev. 20:6. Those who are born again, will be resurrected and receive a new body. The second death is after the Millennial Kingdom - answered above.

claninja said:
If you knew Christ wasn't coming for another 1000 years, would lax and lose hope?

If I knew He wasn't coming in 20 years I might be lax, but I would never lose hope, not in this age or the age to come.

claninja · Mar 8, 2018

Ronald said:
That can be translated for ages and ages.
In 1 Cor. 10:11 ASV, "ends of the ages are come." "generations" can be used. "aion" and aionios can mean forever, ever, everlasting and even eternal but when it's used to describe a temporal thing, eternal should not be used. Even everlasting implies a never ending state but temporal things aren't. So age-during or age-lasting works better.

Not really sure what you are saying here. So Paul is saying they are living during the end of the generations?

Ronald said:
You said that the first resurrection was when we were born again!
If this is true, Paul experience his resurrection. But it's not the first resurrection. Being born from above is not the same thing as what Jesus experienced. He received a new body capable of entering the spiritual realm and physical realm. It is an eternal body. The second resurrection deals with those who didn't receive it the first time around prior to the Millennial Kingdom. As the Bible says, after 1000 years, Satan will be released once again to tempt those who were born during the Millennial Kingdom but have not received Christ. Those who die in Christ during this time period will be resurrected after the 1000 years.
But I'm talking to an Amillennialist -- oops.

So being born again is not a resurrection?

Ronald said:
Your question is faulty. Spiritual death means separation from God.
What I think you mean is do Christians worry about the second death?

You literally replaced born again, with christians, and repeated the question.

Ronald said:
No. The Bible is clear in Rev. 20:6. Those who are born again, will be resurrected and receive a new body.

I agree.

Ronald said:
The second death is after the Millennial Kingdom - answered above.

I don't believe in in a literal earthly 1000 year kingdom, so we will have to agree to disagree.

Ronald said:
If I knew He wasn't coming in 20 years I might be lax, but I would never lose hope, not in this age or the age to come.

At least your honest.

Ronald · Mar 9, 2018

We are born with dead spirit, disconnected to God. When He draws us to Himself, He lifts the veil in our spiritual part, quickens oir spirit to life. This is a spiritual transformation tjat enablea us to connwct with God. This is not the ressurection yielding a new body. The Bible says the dead in Christ will rise first ( those who have passed away), then we who remain alive are caught up. 1 Thes. 4:16, 17; 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

End of the ages can be understood as end of the generations from Abraham to Christ. The point I was trying to make is that these words have variable meanings.

Not believing in a Millennial Kingdom is understandable when you also put most of the events in Revelation back in 70 A.D.

Well it's been a journey. See you around.

claninja · Mar 9, 2018

Ronald said:
We are born with dead spirit, disconnected to God. When He draws us to Himself, He lifts the veil in our spiritual part, quickens oir spirit to life. This is a spiritual transformation tjat enablea us to connwct with God. This is not the ressurection yielding a new body. The Bible says the dead in Christ will rise first ( those who have passed away), then we who remain alive are caught up. 1 Thes. 4:16, 17; 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

End of the ages can be understood as end of the generations from Abraham to Christ. The point I was trying to make is that these words have variable meanings.

Not believing in a Millennial Kingdom is understandable when you also put most of the events in Revelation back in 70 A.D.

Well it's been a journey. See you around.

Nice conversing with you Ron.
God bless

Literal Interpretation of Bible Prophecy: Help or Hindrance?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Exhortations

Exhortations

Exhortations

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Exhortations

Well-Known Member

Exhortations

Well-Known Member

Exhortations

Well-Known Member

Similar threads