Paul vs James who is right?

justbyfaith

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You made the statement. So the burden of proof is on you. Yes, with scripture. Lay it on me. My statements are backed up by scripture. All you have to do is read your Bible with a mind open to what the Holy Spirit has to say.
 
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Wordkeeper

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You made the statement. So the burden of proof is on you. Yes, with scripture. Lay it on me. My statements are backed up by scripture. All you have to do is read your Bible with a mind open to what the Holy Spirit has to say.
Actually I contradicted your claims, with Scripture. The onus of proving me wrong is now in your court.
 
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justbyfaith

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Titus 3:4-7, Romans 4:5, Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc. But I know that there is false teaching out there about all of these passages, so I would just say to you listen to the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life; no one cometh to the Father but by me. This tells me that I don't come to the Father by me. To come to Him seeking to be accepted because of my works is to come to Him by me and not through Him.

Furthermore, if I come to Him by my works the reward is not reckoned as grace but as debt. And God will not OWE salvaion to us. He offers it to us as a free gift.

All of these concepts are in the scriptures. If you do not know about them then I would say that you have some reading to do.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your heart as in the day of provocation.

Hebrews 3:14-18
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

15while it is said,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEYPROVOKED ME.”

16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?

It's ironic you used this verse where the sinners did not obey, act, work.

Joshua obeyed and entered rest. The rest of Israel DISOBEYED and did not enter rest.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Titus 3:4-7, Romans 4:5, Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc. But I know that there is false teaching out there about all of these passages, so I would just say to you listen to the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life; no one cometh to the Father but by me. This tells me that I don't come to the Father by me. To come to Him seeking to be accepted because of my works is to come to Him by me and not through Him.

Furthermore, if I come to Him by my works the reward is not reckoned as grace but as debt. And God will not OWE salvaion to us. He offers it to us as a free gift.

All of these concepts are in the scriptures. If you do not know about them then I would say that you have some reading to do.
John 6:40
For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

1 Corinthians 10:4
4They drank from the rock and the Rock was Christ.

Acts 4:12
12And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.

This is a very nuanced teaching and if I'm not careful, I could lay it out badly and convey the wrong information. And if one doesn't have ears, the hearer could understand it badly.

First of all the word Christ is metonymy. If I say Christ i mean a whole bunch of things. Just as of I say 9/11, you'd immediately remember the hijackings, the destroyed buildings, the great number of people killed.

Similarly, when we say Christ we mean the teaching God gives, that getting involved in activities for the sake of gathering and storing earthly gains will harm you and others, and getting involved in ACTIVITIES for the sake of gathering and protecting souls through laying down your lives for others will bless you and those others.

So when we say that Christians will be saved we are infering that they have cried out for help from the harm that serving mammon has done to them and others and God has given them to Christ (see metonymy). The idea that some came to Christ and did not believe means they loved the darkness, the world system: they never felt uncomfortable in the world, alienated, they never longed for a better system, a holy city. Thats why God's sheep recognise His voice, deep calls to deep, Jesus's teachings resonates with them. That's why no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. Those who came to see the miracles or to mooch came for the wrong reason. Instead of understanding God's sufficiency, they saw it as a way to become more RICH. They never saw it as building up faith, drinking from the Rock, buying oil without money so that when God called, they could obey, like Joshua, who was cleansed, and the wedding guests, with proper garments and the virgins, who had oil.
 
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justbyfaith

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Hebrews 3:14-18
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

15while it is said,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEYPROVOKED ME.”

16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?

It's ironic you used this verse where the sinners did not obey, act, work.

Joshua obeyed and entered rest. The rest of Israel DISOBEYED and did not enter rest.
 
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justbyfaith

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1 Peter 2:7 says, Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner.

So disobedience is put in contrast to a living and saving faith. Real faith is therefore related to an obedient heart, even as is written in Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

My point however has been that faith alone in Christ is what saves, not our works or anything we do to save ourselves. Real faith means a transformed heart, you go from being disobedient to being obedient, because that is what faith does. But it is the real faith that saves, not the obedience; for one can have obedience without faith. Is such a person saved? No; his outside is clean but he has failed to clean the inside of the cup and dish.
 
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justbyfaith

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John 6:40
For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

1 Corinthians 10:4
4They drank from the rock and the Rock was Christ.

Acts 4:12
12And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.

This is a very nuanced teaching and if I'm not careful, I could lay it out badly and convey the wrong information. And if one doesn't have ears, the hearer could understand it badly.

First of all the word Christ is metonymy. If I say Christ i mean a whole bunch of things. Just as of I say 9/11, you'd immediately remember the hijackings, the destroyed buildings, the great number of people killed.

Similarly, when we say Christ we mean the teaching God gives, that getting involved in activities for the sake of gathering and storing earthly gains will harm you and others, and getting involved in ACTIVITIES for the sake of gathering and protecting souls through laying down your lives for others will bless you and those others.

So when we say that Christians will be saved we are infering that they have cried out for help from the harm that serving mammon has done to them and others and God has given them to Christ (see metonymy). The idea that some came to Christ and did not believe means they loved the darkness, the world system: they never felt uncomfortable in the world, alienated, they never longed for a better system, a holy city. Thats why God's sheep recognise His voice, deep calls to deep, Jesus's teachings resonates with them. That's why no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. Those who came to see the miracles or to mooch came for the wrong reason. Instead of understanding God's sufficiency, they saw it as a way to become more RICH. They never saw it as building up faith, drinking from the Rock, buying oil without money so that when God called, they could obey, like Joshua, who was cleansed, and the wedding guests, with proper garments and the virgins, who had oil.
 
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justbyfaith

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Yes, in believing in Christ of course we accept and follow and obey His teachings. Nevertheless one can do all this and yet not believe in Christ. They are trying to be moral, or they are attempting to earn their salvation through what they do; and therefore they are not putting their whole trust in Christ. If my whole trust is in Christ I will be obedient to His teachings because He is alive in me. But if I am the one living my own life, attempting obedience will fall miserably short, and I will never succeed at earning my way into heaven; for it is an impossible task. This is why God offers eternal life as a free gift; and of course those who have eternal life will walk in His eternal ways.
 
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Wordkeeper

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1 Peter 2:7 says, Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner.

So disobedience is put in contrast to a living and saving faith. Real faith is therefore related to an obedient heart, even as is written in Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

My point however has been that faith alone in Christ is what saves, not our works or anything we do to save ourselves. Real faith means a transformed heart, you go from being disobedient to being obedient, because that is what faith does. But it is the real faith that saves, not the obedience; for one can have obedience without faith. Is such a person saved? No; his outside is clean but he has failed to clean the inside of the cup and dish.
Actually belief is contrasted with disobedience.

In other words, belief means obedience and disbelief means disobedience.

Israel claimed she believed God would carry her safely into rest, but when she was shown it required risk, obedience in the face of danger, she shrank back.

It want as if God did not prove He could provide and protect. If any other nation had got the proof that Israel got, they would have repented in ashes.

Why was it required for Israel to face an enemy in order to enter Rest.

Because being blessings to others always requires laying down your life.

THIS is highly complex. We have to examine it one component at a time.

Think of this idea. If God told you that to fulfil the promise to Abraham, be blessings to the world required you to lay down your life, how much proof is required by you that God can raise you from the dead before you do it?

Never enough, right?

Even God had a problem:

Luke 22:41-44
41And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray,42saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. 44And being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.
 
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LoveofTruth

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It is important to understand that we are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ. If I am trusting in my works to save me to any extent, my faith is not in Jesus but in me; I am trying to save myself by what I do. No doubt, if I put my faith and trust in Christ it will enact an inward change that affects my behaviour on the outside. But I must not trust my outward behaviour as being salvational. Christ will say, "I never knew you," to many who trusted in their works to save them. Surprised, they will say, Didn't we cast out demons in your name? Didn't we prophesy in your name? And, Didn't we do many wonderful works in your name? (Matthew 7:21-23). They trusted in their works and were workers of iniquity on the side. Real faith in Christ means I am no longer a worker of iniquity, He has changed me from the inside out through faith alone in Him, so that out of that faith stems the fruit of love, which is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18).
Hello, I understand where your coming from and I am also against any man claiming some works of his flesh or of the law for salvation or any merit our grace that is dispensed by some church etc.

But scripture does not say (as far as I know) that we are saved by faith alone. It doesn’t matter what mighty reformer if the past tried to say..we are to put scripture above any man’s words or ideas if they go against it. We read i scripture

“ James 2 - 14. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”

Notice the part “can faith save him?”

Now I agree that when a person believes the gospel and receives the word in his heart that faith is how he enters into the grace that saves him. This grace is Jesus Christ dwelling in his heart at the new birth. This is God now working in him and he is a new creation as he abides in that light through faith.

But the saving part is of God we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be if God and not of us.

God working in a believer is the life of a person says they have faith and don’t have God working in them their faith is vain.

The works are not outward but inward. Yes we can show forth those works if God in us and show the fruit of the Spirit. But they simply manifest the life that is in us. It is God that works and saves and as a believer we are in the new creation in Christ and fellow labourers with God he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit
 
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justbyfaith

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Hello, I understand where your coming from and I am also against any man claiming some works if his flesh or if the law for salvation or any merit our grace that is dispensed by some church etc.

But scripture does not say (as far as I know) that we are saved by faith alone. It doesn’t matter what mighty refformer if the past tried to say..we are to put scripture above any man’s words or ideas if they go against it. We read i scripture

“ James 2 - 14. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”

Notice the part “can faith save him?”

Now I agree that when a person believes the gospel and receives the word in his heart that faith is how he enters into the grace that saves him. This grace is Jesus Christ dwelling in his heart at the new birth. This is God now working in him and he is a new creation as he abides in that light through faith.

But the saving part is of God we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be if God and not of us.

God working in a believer is the life of a person says they have faith and don’t have God working in them their faith is vain.

The works are not outward but inward. Yes we can show forth those works if God in us and show the fruit of the Spirit. But they simply manifest the life that is in us. It is God that works and saves and as a believer we are in the new creation in Christ and fellow labourers with God he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit
 
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justbyfaith

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I believe the scripture teaches that "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he has saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." (see Titus 3:4-7)

Such a salvation will result in good works if given the opportunity, by which we are justified before man and not God (Romans 4:2).

But it is clear to me (and ought to be clear to the reader) that this salvation isn't brought about by works, but by a living and saving faith alone. A living and saving faith will produce works if given the opportunity. But God is the judge, and not man, who truly has a living and saving faith. A deathbed conversion may or may not be a real conversion. But if it is real, and there are never any works, this substantiates Romans 4:5 without contradicting James. For the living and saving faith would have produced works if the person had lived longer.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Actually belief is contrasted with disobedience.

In other words, belief means obedience and disbelief means disobedience.

Israel claimed she believed God would carry her safely into rest, but when she was shown it required risk, obedience in the face of danger, she shrank back.

It want as if God did not prove He could provide and protect. If any other nation had got the proof that Israel got, they would have repented in ashes.

Why was it required for Israel to face an enemy in order to enter Rest.

Because being blessings to others always requires laying down your life.

THIS is highly complex. We have to examine it one component at a time.

Think of this idea. If God told you that to fulfil the promise to Abraham, be blessings to the world required you to lay down your life, how much proof is required by you that God can raise you from the dead before you do it?

Never enough, right?

Even God had a problem:

Luke 22:41-44
41And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray,42saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. 44And being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.
Old Covenant - Moses time contrasted to New Covenant- After Jesus death.

Two different Covenants
 
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mark kennedy

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I believe the scripture teches that "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mecy he has saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Such a salvation will result in good works if given the opportunity, by which we are justified before man and not God (Romans 4:2).

But it is clear to me (and ought to be clear to the reader) that this salvation isn't brought about by works, but by a living and saving faith alone. A living and saving faith will produce works if given the opportunity. But God is the judge, and not man, who truly has a living and saving faith. A deathbed conversion may or may not be a real conversion. But if it is real, and thee are never any works, this substntiates Romans 4:5 without contradicting James. For the living and saving faith would have produced works if the person had lived longer.
The thief on the cross comes to mind.
 
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justbyfaith

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Actually belief is contrasted with disobedience.

In other words, belief means obedience and disbelief means disobedience.

Israel claimed she believed God would carry her safely into rest, but when she was shown it required risk, obedience in the face of danger, she shrank back.

It want as if God did not prove He could provide and protect. If any other nation had got the proof that Israel got, they would have repented in ashes.

Why was it required for Israel to face an enemy in order to enter Rest.

Because being blessings to others always requires laying down your life.

THIS is highly complex. We have to examine it one component at a time.

Think of this idea. If God told you that to fulfil the promise to Abraham, be blessings to the world required you to lay down your life, how much proof is required by you that God can raise you from the dead before you do it?

Never enough, right?

Even God had a problem:

Luke 22:41-44
41And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray,42saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. 44And being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.
 
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