Is lying ever acceptable?

Soyeong · Feb 21, 2018

KaylaDee23 said:
First, I thank you in advance for your response to this question. It may seem elementary to some, but this came up tonight in our class for the youth and I'm not sure how strong I feel about my answer afterwards.
My friend asked the question to the class *hypothetically* "If you were harboring innocent people in your house, and a gangster came looking for them, should you tell this gangster yes I am harboring these people and lead them to him OR should you say no I am not harboring any people and lie?" ...
Now, while she was asking this question I thought about Corrie Ten Booms story about her hiding Jews in her family home in order to protect them. Surely she couldn't say to the German soldiers yes I am harboring fugitives, you caught me? Right? My response is to think that if one is preserving life then it is okay to lie, but now I don't know.
We were talking about the story of Rahab, and the two spies that she lied to protect. The question was asked, was she wrong for lying in order to protect the two spies. My instinct was to say no, because (once again) she was preserving life, BUT there are a few things that make me doubt that answer and through my little bit of research tonight there seems to be an equal division on the answer to this question.
Here are my thoughts that make me wonder:
1. It is a commandment to not lie.
2. There are countless verses that talk about how serious lying is.
3. God doesn't contradict Himself, so why would He say do not lie, but then lying in this circumstance is okay?
On the other hand:
1. I read that Rahab made a covenant to protect the people of God and was lying in order to do so.
2. I also read that the enemy has his own truth and that in order to combat that we could lie. So when the enemy came against Rahab he was in the wrong even though Rahab lied because he put her in a situation where her answer was that or violate the covenant.
Christianity Today says "In a broken world, sometimes a lie is justifiable, but every lie, even the justifiable one, is a sad reminder of our brokenness."
Bonhoeffer said "A teacher asks a child in front of the class whether it is true that his Father often comes home drunk. It is true, but the child denies it.' He says the teacher is at fault and not the child because they abused the relationship and the expectation that the truth be told in the relationship. The teacher exploits the obligation to tell the truth to force the student to reveal his Fathers weakness in front of the class and to violate his covenanted identity."
Is this in fact covenanted self-defense, or just a plain old lie?

Once again thank you for your responses. Me and my friend have been placed over our youth at church, and I never want to mislead or teach a false Gospel to them. It is my desire to please the Lord however I can and serve Him in every area He will allow.

There are a number of God's laws that appear to contradict each other, such as what happens when someone wanted to obey to circumcise their baby boy on the 8th day and it happened to fall on the Sabbath. However, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by breaking one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that one of the commands was never intended to prevent the other from being obeyed, and in this case the command not to work on the Sabbath was never intended to prevent circumcision on the 8th day. This is why priests were held innocent for performing their duties on the Sabbath or why David and his men were held innocent for eating the showbread even though they broke the letter of the Law. In general, all of God's commands are intended to teach us how to obey the greatest two commands, so no command was ever intended to be used as an excuse to avoid loving God or our neighbor. So the command not bear false witness was never intended to cause us to refrain from loving our neighbor.

Sabertooth · Feb 21, 2018

Soyeong said:
..., such as what happens when someone wanted to obey to circumcise their baby boy on the 8th day and it happened to fall on the Sabbath.

The eighth business day, perhaps...?

Soyeong · Feb 21, 2018

Sabertooth said:
The eighth business day, perhaps...?

Perhaps, but that was not what they ruled.

Sketcher · Feb 23, 2018

Exodus 1:15-21 provides a scenario in which lying was necessary to protect innocent people from being murdered. I can't think of a circumstance other than protecting the innocent in which lying would be OK.

Francis Drake · Feb 24, 2018

Sketcher said:
Exodus 1:15-21 provides a scenario in which lying was necessary to protect innocent people from being murdered. I can't think of a circumstance other than protecting the innocent in which lying would be OK.

Not just protecting the innocent, but saving the guilty but redeemed, ie. Rahab the prostitute lying to the soldiers of Jericho. In doing so, she saved her extended family from destruction.
I doubt her family were innocent of the condemnation aimed at Jericho.

Noxot · Feb 24, 2018

thou shalt not lie means that you should not go against the spirit that your Father gives you. and so if you told the truth to the germans that the jews were hiding wherever you would be lying in the sense that you went against compassion and love for the sake of a false sense of righteous rule following.

Matt 23:23-26 (YLT)
`Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye give tithe of the mint, and the dill, and the cumin, and did neglect the weightier things of the Law--the judgment, and the kindness, and the faith; these it behoved you to do, and those not to neglect. `Blind guides! who are straining out the gnat, and the camel are swallowing. `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye make clean the outside of the cup and the plate, and within they are full of rapine and incontinence. `Blind Pharisee! cleanse first the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside of them also may become clean.

Francis Drake · Feb 25, 2018

Noxot said:
thou shalt not lie means that you should not go against the spirit that your Father gives you. and so if you told the truth to the germans that the jews were hiding wherever you would be lying in the sense that you went against compassion and love for the sake of a false sense of righteous rule following.

Matt 23:23-26 (YLT)
`Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye give tithe of the mint, and the dill, and the cumin, and did neglect the weightier things of the Law--the judgment, and the kindness, and the faith; these it behoved you to do, and those not to neglect. `Blind guides! who are straining out the gnat, and the camel are swallowing. `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye make clean the outside of the cup and the plate, and within they are full of rapine and incontinence. `Blind Pharisee! cleanse first the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside of them also may become clean.

Definitely yes.
In trying to define lying, far too many have got side tracked into foolish legalism. And like many lawyers, have managed to prove from the bible that black is white etc., completely losing touch with the Spirit behind the law.

FireDragon76 · Feb 25, 2018

Acceptable? No. Sometimes it is however necessary.

DCDoggins · Feb 28, 2018

My priest always says that honesty in action is what is important. He says the tongue can twist around so many things and is often acting devilish. Getting down on your knees for the benefit of others is where we have the ability to show and access truth

ViaCrucis · Mar 2, 2018

The Great Commandment is "Love the Lord your God ... love your neighbor as yourself."

If a "righteous" act is done that violates this command, then it is not a righteous act at all, but a sinful one.

The command given in the Decalogue is specifically, "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor", it's more of a court thing; of course it has also been understood as a general prohibition against lying and deceit. And in most cases lying is sinful. But there are clearly times when lying would be the right and just thing to do, the most obvious examples are usually the case of Rahab protecting Joshua and Caleb, and also lying to protect a Jewish family from the Gestapo during the Nazi era.

So, yes, lying is sometimes acceptable, and in certain cases the right thing to do.

-CryptoLutheran

Eloy Craft · Mar 3, 2018

I think what most folks are saying here can be summed up as; You don't have to tell someone things they don't have a right to know.

KaylaDee23 · Mar 5, 2018

I understand. That makes sense. Thank you for your response.

KaylaDee23 · Mar 5, 2018

Soyeong said:
There are a number of God's laws that appear to contradict each other, such as what happens when someone wanted to obey to circumcise their baby boy on the 8th day and it happened to fall on the Sabbath. However, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by breaking one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that one of the commands was never intended to prevent the other from being obeyed, and in this case the command not to work on the Sabbath was never intended to prevent circumcision on the 8th day. This is why priests were held innocent for performing their duties on the Sabbath or why David and his men were held innocent for eating the showbread even though they broke the letter of the Law. In general, all of God's commands are intended to teach us how to obey the greatest two commands, so no command was ever intended to be used as an excuse to avoid loving God or our neighbor. So the command not bear false witness was never intended to cause us to refrain from loving our neighbor.

SkyWriting said:
You are never required to obey what evil asks of you.
What Does the Bible Say About Being Silent?

True. Like "Pray continually", but you can't pray ALL the time. Thanks for the reply.

KaylaDee23 · Mar 5, 2018

Sabertooth said:
HERE is a previous thread on this topic.

Awesome, thank you! Sorry, I didn't see it.

KaylaDee23 · Mar 5, 2018

Hank77 said:
What does the Bible say about a false witness?

This website may be helpful to you as it gives several scriptures and explanations.
I'm sure that you have prayed about this with your friend, the Lord knows your heart and how you want to please Him so you can trust that He will help you to know what to say.
God Bless you and your friend as you serve Him.

Thank you so much for the reply, and your kind words. I will check this website out ASAP.

KaylaDee23 · Mar 5, 2018

brinny said:
Rahab was deemed "righteous" by God Himself. This is because she feared God, and not man.

The question is, did she "sin" by protecting the spies?

Another question is, did she "bow down" to man, or to God? The bottom line is, we always "bow down" to one or the other.

The final question (for now) is, is it a sin to "give up" those running and hiding from evil, to evil?

And just another....does God abhor/hate the "shedding of innocent blood"?

And just one more....is it the "intention" of the heart that God looks at during the times described above?

Ok, one more....did Corrie Ten Boom "sin" when she hid the Jewish people from the Nazi's?

Skywritings post #2 is quite profound.

This gives some different perspective; thank you so much for your reply.

KaylaDee23 · Mar 5, 2018

Tolworth John said:
How oftenare we going to face a life or death situation ?
How closely do we walk with God?
Corrie did face that situation while hidding jews from the gestapo, she also spent her life walking very closely with God.

For us who do not have the self discipline to follow God, we should seek not to use lies in our daily lives.

May I suggest that you look at the coldcasechristianity web site and use the information there to build up and challenge your young people about the accuracy and reliability of the bible.

With a view to taking them out on the street to witness to passers by.

Thank you for your response, I will check that website out ASAP.

KaylaDee23 · Mar 5, 2018

PollyJetix said:
I think we need to look at the heart issues.
There are many forms of speech that could be called "lying"... but I don't think all of them are.

For instance, I work with dementia patients. To tell them the unvarnished, bald truth all the time would be unspeakably cruel.
One patient comes to mind. She had a very weak heart, and thought she was a lot younger than she actually was. She was expecting her husband to come home from work. If we would tell her every day, that he was dead, she would grieve again, as if it happened that day. She hallucinated often, thinking she saw him through the door, sleeping on the sofa in the living room. (It was pillows.) Then she said he had died, and was lying there dead.
It takes some inventive thinking, to try to get through all that, without lying!
I've dealt with weak dementia patients frantically trying to find their babies in the middle of the night... and those "babies" were grandparents themselves! The patients could not understand their babies were grown, and they had it all wrong. It was just kinder, and worked better, to tell them their oldest child had taken them for a sleepover, so she could get some rest tonight.

Was that lying? I don't think so.

Lying is "bearing false witness."
Now, to bear false witness, is to try to hurt someone unjustly... or to try to let an evildoer get out of punishment.
Bearing false witness is bending the truth to your own advantage, trying to make yourself look better than you actually are... or trying to make someone else look better or worse than they actually are.

There are many instances in the Bible where God's people didn't exactly tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Such as David, when he was running from King Saul; he ended up in danger, and got out of trouble by pretending he was insane. Was that lying? not really.

A protestant minister fleeing persecution was traveling on the open front seat of a carriage, in the dead of night, in the 1600's. This was during the Inquisition, in Europe.
A bailiff stopped the carriage, and asked roughly, "Is Menno Simons in this carriage?"

Menno Simons said, wait, let me check.
Leaning back, he called into the carriage, "Is Menno Simons back there? The law is here, looking for him!"
His parishioners chorused from within the carriage:
"No, Menno Simons isn't in here!"

The bailiff rode on, not guessing he had just spoken with none other than the wanted man, himself!

Was this lying? Not really. He didn't tell the entire truth, but that's not necessary or wise, at all times.
The main thing is to love and honor God and your fellow man.

Wow, first off thank you for the work you do.

Second, thank you for your response, I greatly appreciate it. It puts things into a whole new perspective.

KaylaDee23 · Mar 5, 2018

Poppyseed78 said:
I think there are times where lying is necessary for self-defense or saving the lives of others. Of course, 99% of the time it's better to be honest, but there are exceptions. The truth should be told with compassion and kindness, otherwise it can be cruel.

I understand. Thank you for your reply.

Followers4christ · Mar 15, 2018

I believe Exodus chapter one would answer your question.

Exodus 1:15-21 Then the king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, When you serve as midwife to the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, you shall kill him, but if it is a daughter, she shall live.” But the midwives feared God and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live. So the king of Egypt called the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this, and let the male children live?” The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women, for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them.” So God dealt well with the midwives. And the people multiplied and grew very strong. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families.

Is lying ever acceptable?

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