Am I still a "Christian"?

patrick jane said:

I think scripture makes the point quite clearly without my commentary. I highlight and stress what I believe to be important words to remember and meditate on..

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Actually, no, it does not, you only think it does. It's kind of like how clear scripture was clearly misinterpret by Fire Dragon just now, very clearly.

When discussing this, one thing I've always noticed is an OSAS'r will post a scripture that they have been taught to get such and such out of, while such and such just isn't there at all. I guess Some of us can look at it and see nothing to do with the point they are making.

So one can always say, I/we you don't have the holy spirit or the light of God, that's why you don't see it, but that starts heading in the direction of over the edge fanatical because with that, they cannot be wrong..we either see it whether anything is there or not, or there is something wrong with us. Or they can step up and try to explain what their scripture says to them, and let the chips fall where they may...if they dare. Oft times that causes them to take a second look and see the scripture just may not say what they think it does.

You don't have to do that of course, but without explanation, that scripture means nothing to the subject here to some of us.

And I'm dead serious/not pretending, some just don't see it so whatever good you are trying to do, it may not be happening so I'd recommend you put it up there and defend it if need be...If you are that confident, that shouldn't be a problem.

Explain and lets talk about it.

Also, one word from the OP on a preference to get back on topic, and I'm out of here. As I mentioned, I'd rather not do this here, but there isn't much of a choice when false doctrine is being taught by some.

Sometimes an OP minds the Off topic and sometimes not, there may be something they can learn from it. Wouldn't bother me but it's not my thread,

Kenny'sID said:

Actually, no, it does not, you only think it does. It's kind of like how clear scripture was clearly misinterpret by Fire Dragon just now, very clearly.

When discussing this, one thing I've always noticed is an OSAS'r will post a scripture that they have been taught to get such and such out of, while such and such just isn't there at all. I guess Some of us can look at it and see nothing to do with the point they are making.

So one can always say, I/we you don't have the holy spirit or the light of God, that's why you don't see it, but that starts heading in the direction of over the edge fanatical because with that, they cannot be wrong..we either see it whether anything is there or not, or there is something wrong with us. Or they can step up and try to explain what their scripture says to them, and let the chips fall where they may...if they dare. Oft times that causes them to take a second look and see the scripture just may not say what they think it does.

You don't have to do that of course, but without explanation, that scripture means nothing to the subject here to some of us.

And I'm dead serious/not pretending, some just don't see it so whatever good you are trying to do, it may not be happening so I'd recommend you put it up there and defend it if need be...If you are that confident, that shouldn't be a problem.

Explain and lets talk about it.

Also, one word from the OP on a preference to get back on topic, and I'm out of here. As I mentioned, I'd rather not do this here, but there isn't much of a choice when false doctrine is being taught by some.

Sometimes an OP minds the Off topic and sometimes not, there may be something they can learn from it. Wouldn't bother me but it's not my thread,

Click to expand...

Romans 8:1 KJV -
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 10:4 KJV -
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Kenny'sID said:

I get it, some just don't want to do what's required, so they find a denomination styled after just what they do or do not want to do/believe.

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If you just want to sling around insinuations, perhaps you are just a pharisee and that is why you have chosen your beliefs. It couldn't have possibly been because you believe it's a true exposition of the faith, now could it?

Lutherans do not believe in "OSAS", BTW. Nor do we teach that we are free to do anything we want. Those are both empty assertions that show an ignorance of our theology.

The Sheep and the Goats in Matthew is obviously a parable and not an exhaustively accurate account of the Last Judgment (after all, people are not literally sheep or goats). Understanding its real message involves looking at the overall context in which the parable is placed. Therefore, my understanding of this text is not necessarily wrong, to focus on how Jesus uses this as an example of the kinds of works that Christians should do.

FireDragon76 said:

If you just want to sling around insinuations, perhaps you are just a pharisee and that is why you have chosen your beliefs. It couldn't have possibly been because you believe it's a true exposition of the faith, now could it?

Lutherans do not believe in "OSAS", BTW. Nor do we teach that we are free to do anything we want. Those are both empty assertions that show an ignorance of our theology.

The Sheep and the Goats in Matthew is obviously a parable and not an exhaustively accurate account of the Last Judgment (after all, people are not literally sheep or goats). Understanding its real message involves looking at the overall context in which the parable is placed. Therefore, my understanding of this text is not necessarily wrong, to focus on how Jesus uses this as an example of the kinds of works that Christians should do.

Click to expand...

Whoever thinks they can be saved and then lose their salvation through sin might be mistaken. A truly saved person will not murder, steal, lie, commit sex crimes, commit adultery, fall into idolatry, etc. and when they sin against God they repent.

Galatians 2:20 KJV -
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In order for us to lose something we must have the responsibility for keeping it secure. Otherwise, we did not lose it, someone else did. We must be very careful as we study the Scripture to sort the mail according to whom it was written. We must not read into a verse what is not there, and must interpret a verse in its proper context. This is what makes dispensational Bible study so helpful to our understanding God’s will and purpose.

In regards to our salvation in the dispensation of grace, we can clearly see that we receive through Paul the message of ‘salvation by grace’. Romans is a wonderful book to illuminate our understanding of salvation by grace in this age.

We learn in Romans 1-3 that men are desperately wicked. In fact, Paul calls them reprobate, sinners, wicked, evil, and deserving of anguish and God’s wrath. Every man, Jew and Gentile has broken God’s law of righteousness and is guilty before a just God who will judge our works in this life, whether they be good or evil.

It is through the use of appealing to man’s conscious and the law of God that Paul identifies every man unworthy and incapable of obtaining righteousness through their own efforts. He concludes in Romans 3:10 by saying, ‘There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.’

Since God demands perfect righteousness for salvation and eternal life, we are all condemned to death and judgment in hell.

However, Paul is given a special revelation from God that explains that now we can receive righteousness and salvation apart from the law (Gal 1:11, 12). In fact, the purpose of the law was never to save anyone, but to show that they were guilty.

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” – Romans 3:19

The law was to bring the ‘knowledge of sin’. But now the righteousness of God can only come through faith in Jesus Christ.

“Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:” – Romans 3:22

Today, we are justified ‘freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus’ (Romans 3:24).

Knowing how we obtained our salvation is crucial to understanding whether we can lose our salvation. Paul clearly teaches that our salvation is by faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ who was made to be our substitution for death, sin, and judgment (2 Cor 5:21, Romans 3:25, Romans 3:23). Since he paid our fine, and we trust in Christ, God can fairly declare us righteous and give us salvation (Eph 1:13).

Trying to ‘keep’ our salvation

The reason that God sent Christ to die on the cross for our sins, was because we could not live lives worthy of obtaining righteousness ourselves. Why then would we think that once we are saved, we can now live lives worthy of God’s righteous judgment without Christ?

Paul speaks to the Galatians about this issue in Galatians 3:3 and 5:4. After having received the grace of God for salvation, the Galatians were now trying to go back under the law to live their lives for God. Paul says ‘Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.’

This seems to be a severe statement but is repeated in 1 Corinthians 1:17 to those who were debating over Paul’s baptism. Paul replied regarding these rituals,

“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” – I Corinthians 1:17

Paul repeatedly teaches that it is not by our own works of righteousness that we are saved. If it were by our works then Christ died in vain! It follows that if we are not saved by works of righteousness then we can not lose our salvation because of a lack of them.

Because we are saved by God’s grace, the sole responsibility for producing the works meet for our salvation lies upon Christ and the efficacy of his death on the cross. Our faith alone would be of no effect for salvation only if God was not able to fulfill that which he promised (Romans 4:21). This of course is unbelief of the first degree!

The whole basis of our salvation is by faith in Christ’s full payment for sins (Ephesians 2:8, Romans 3:22)!

Therefore, if we are saved by grace and then determine that we can lose our justified status simply by not acting obediently or following after righteousness, then we are in essence rejecting the cross, ignoring what Christ came to do! We are also denying our present position in our crucified flesh combating its temptations daily.

As Paul told the Galatians, ‘Christ is become of no effect unto you’. You would have just as much success trying to save yourself without the cross as you would trying to stay saved without the grace of God operating on your behalf.

The topic of what happens in salvation is an important topic shrouded with confusion by the powers of darkness of this world. If there are questions that are not answered cleary in this article or on our question page, please submit them through our online form.

Understanding what Christ did on the cross for you is the key to changing your life for eternity! Without the grace of God, every man would have no answer for God on judgment day, but would spend eternity in the lake of fire. Don’t rest until you know that you are saved by the grace of God and have eternity secured through the blood of Christ.

The question should not be ‘Can we lose our salvation by grace?’ Instead it should be, ‘Am I saved by my trust in God’s grace?’

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”- Gal 2:21

1. 
   -Are There Many Ways To Salvation?
   -Use It or Lose It
   -What Is the Function of the Law?
   -By Faith and Through Faith
   -Did Paul Preach A Different Gospel?
   -Now That I Am Saved By Grace, May I Sin?
   -Man Always Saved by God’s Grace

patrick jane said:

Romans 8:1 KJV -
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 10:4 KJV -
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Click to expand...

OK, I can work with those.

Define what it means to be "in Christ" and in the second verse "believe"... pretty much the same thing but I'd like to hear your definitions.

Your going to have to stop refusing to see in order for those questions to help. You've seen denial here on this very thread, blatant, serious denial, so, just so you know, no one is going to be shown a thing if they don't want to see it.

And a hint on these particular verses and my question...those scriptures are simple to understand no matter what, but they have been partially misunderstood by those that only want to get what they want from them. Also there are several verses that are treated right along the same lines as these, the part some want it's used and the other, completely missed, or suppressed, or ignored.

So, I've pretty well told you what is going on I guess but would still like you to answer.

FireDragon76 said:

If you just want to sling around insinuations, perhaps you are just a pharisee and that is why you have chosen your beliefs. It couldn't have possibly been because you believe it's a true exposition of the faith, now could it?

Been accused of the Pharisee thing before, but I don't see how accusing me of that is going to change the truth in what I just said.

Lutherans do not believe in "OSAS", BTW. Nor do we teach that we are free to do anything we want. Those are both empty assertions that show an ignorance of our theology.

I don't believe I ever said they did, but you are welcome to show me my error..

The Sheep and the Goats in Matthew is obviously a parable and not an exhaustively accurate account of the Last Judgment (after all, people are not literally sheep or goats). Understanding its real message involves looking at the overall context in which the parable is placed. Therefore, my understanding of this text is not necessarily wrong, to focus on how Jesus uses this as an example of the kinds of works that Christians should do.

Click to expand...

It's been made clear by Christa, and if that's not going to get your attention, it's likely nothing I say, will.

Kenny'sID said:

OK, I can work with those.

Define what it means to be "in Christ" and in the second verse "believe"... pretty much the same thing but I'd like to hear your definitions.

Your going to have to stop refusing to see in order for those questions to help. You've seen denial here on this very thread, blatant, serious denial, so, just so you know, no one is going to be shown a thing if they don't want to see it.

And a hint on these particular verses and my question...those scriptures are simple to understand no matter what, but they have been partially misunderstood by those that only want to get what they want from them. Also there are several verses that are treated right along the same lines as these, the part some want it's used and the other, completely missed, or suppressed, or ignored.

So, I've pretty well told you what is going on I guess but would still like you to answer.

Click to expand...

We are In Christ and Christ in us. We are in the BOC (Body Of Christ), as you know. I'm a Mid-Acts dispensation believer and I gathered a few scriptures that I don't know by heart with all of them, but I remember key words and parts of these. I think these scriptures tell us what being in Christ means, and of course, there are certainly more than these. I have believed that once one believes and trusts the DBR, the gospel of salvation, that they are sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which are in my signature below.

1 Corinthians 12:12-14 KJV -
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Romans 8:8-11 KJV -
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Ephesians 1:7-14 KJV -
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 3:6-8 KJV -
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians 2:1-10 KJV -
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Colossiians 2:6-14 KJV -
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Ephesians 5:30-32 KJV -
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


Ephesians 1:18 KJV -
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJV -
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 5:10-21 KJV -
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I apologize it took so long to respond. I can only type with my right index finger, so I make errors and only type about 15 wpm. Sorry, I like to highlight and use colors, I hope it'a not too annoying.

Kenny'sID said:

It's been made clear by Christa, and if that's not going to get your attention, it's likely nothing I say, will.

Click to expand...

I do not believe one can continue to willfully and knowingly sin. The law is there to show us we need a Saviour. The law was our schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:24-27 KJV -
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 6:1-18 KJV -
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

patrick jane said:

We are In Christ and Christ in us. We are in the BOC (Body Of Christ), as you know. I'm a Mid-Acts dispensation believer and I gathered a few scriptures that I don't know by heart with all of them, but I remember key words and parts of these. I think these scriptures tell us what being in Christ means, and of course, there are certainly more than these. I have believed that once one believes and trusts the DBR, the gospel of salvation, that they are sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which are in my signature below.

1 Corinthians 12:12-14 KJV -
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Romans 8:8-11 KJV -
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Ephesians 1:7-14 KJV -
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 3:6-8 KJV -
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians 2:1-10 KJV -
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Colossiians 2:6-14 KJV -
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Ephesians 5:30-32 KJV -
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


Ephesians 1:18 KJV -
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJV -
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 5:10-21 KJV -
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I apologize it took so long to respond. I can only type with my right index finger, so I make errors and only type about 15 wpm. Sorry, I like to highlight and use colors, I hope it'a not too annoying.

Click to expand...

Just simple definitions for the two things I mentioned please. We have to keep this simple, one step at a time.

That is not a probelm at all, you can take as long as you like to respond.

Kenny'sID said:

Just simple definitions for the two things I mentioned please. We have to keep this simple, one step at a time.

That is not a probelm at all, you can take as long as you like to respond.

Click to expand...

I think I explained here:
"We are In Christ and Christ in us. We are in the BOC (Body Of Christ), as you know. These scriptures tell us what being in Christ means, and of course, there are certainly more verses than these. I have believed that once one believes and trusts the DBR, the gospel of salvation, that they are sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." -

You want me to define believing? I just showed you scriptures of us being in Christ and Christ in us. Believing and trusting are one in the same to me, I can't have one without the other. I showed scriptures for that as well. I don't know exactly what you're looking for. I made two recent posts with ample explanation, IMO. I posted scriptures that contain exactly what I'm saying.

I strive to follow these commandments


Matthew 22:36-40 KJV -
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

patrick jane said:

I think I explained here:
"We are In Christ and Christ in us. We are in the BOC (Body Of Christ), as you know. These scriptures tell us what being in Christ means, and of course, there are certainly more verses than these. I have believed that once one believes and trusts the DBR, the gospel of salvation, that they are sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." -

You want me to define believing? I just showed you scriptures of us being in Christ and Christ in us. Believing and trusting are one in the same to me, I can't have one without the other. I showed scriptures for that as well. I don't know exactly what you're looking for. I made two recent posts with ample explanation, IMO. I posted scriptures that contain exactly what I'm saying.

Click to expand...

Believing means to believe on him, hence in everything he teaches/stands for, and when we stop do what he teaches, we lose salvation, just that simple. And I know it's a favorite of OSAS to say they never were saved to begin with, but I assure you, that is and always has been a false ploy. Number one, there is no way anyone but God can say if they were never saved. As a matter of fact there may be every indication they were by their fruits, and then they just gave it up. It's completely made up as a ploy to answer an uneasy question, and people buy it no problem for the reasons already mentioned.

Following is an example of some that were saved, and "fell away"

Probably best I link to the full explanation I made in the past. You have to read it all carefully, it's very clearly stated in scripture alone, but I add explanation to the explanation Jesus gave for the parable of the sower. There are several ways we can miss it subconsciously if we don't want to see it, so up to you. Following is the link to that post on this very subject:

"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

patrick jane said:

I strive to follow these commandments


Matthew 22:36-40 KJV -
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Click to expand...

Do you strive to follow the ten commandments?

Kenny'sID said:

Believing means to believe on him, hence in everything he teaches/stands for, and when we stop do what he teaches, we lose salvation, just that simple. And I know it's a favorite of OSAS to say they never were saved to begin with, but I assure you, that is and always has been a false ploy. Number one, there is no way anyone but God can say if they were never saved. As a matter of fact there may be every indication they were by their fruits, and then they just gave it up. It's completely made up as a ploy to answer an uneasy question, and people buy it no problem for the reasons already mentioned.

Following is an example of some that were saved, and "fell away"

Probably best I link to the full explanation I made in the past. You have to read it all carefully, it's very clearly stated in scripture alone, but I add explanation to the explanation Jesus gave for the parable of the sower. There are several ways we can miss it subconsciously if we don't want to see it, so up to you. Following is the link to that post on this very subject:

"If you could lose your salvation, you would."



Do you strive to follow the ten commandments?

Click to expand...

Kenny'sID said:

Believing means to believe on him, hence in everything he teaches/stands for, and when we stop do what he teaches, we lose salvation, just that simple. And I know it's a favorite of OSAS to say they never were saved to begin with, but I assure you, that is and always has been a false ploy. Number one, there is no way anyone but God can say if they were never saved. As a matter of fact there may be every indication they were by their fruits, and then they just gave it up. It's completely made up as a ploy to answer an uneasy question, and people buy it no problem for the reasons already mentioned.

Following is an example of some that were saved, and "fell away"

Probably best I link to the full explanation I made in the past. You have to read it all carefully, it's very clearly stated in scripture alone, but I add explanation to the explanation Jesus gave for the parable of the sower. There are several ways we can miss it subconsciously if we don't want to see it, so up to you. Following is the link to that post on this very subject:

"If you could lose your salvation, you would."



Do you strive to follow the ten commandments?

Click to expand...

Of course I do try to obey the ten Commandments, and I fall short. On the two great
commandments hangs ALL the law and the Prophets, per Jesus Christ. That settles it for me. Obedience to the law does not get anyone to heaven. We are justified by faith, not of works. Red the first verses if James if you'd like to quote "faith without works is dead" because James was addressing the Twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus in His earthly ministry was not sent BUT to the lost sheep of Israel. The Bible is a book of details. Survey theBook because things that differ are not the same. Jesus Christ preached and taught the OT law. He preached to Gentiles but did not seek them out. Anyone and everyone that heard Jesus and believed, was immediatelysaved as the criminal on the cross.

Matthew 15:24 KJV - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

James 1:1 KJV - James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

What makes us Christian:
We Believe…

– The Bible is the word of God without error, inspired and preserved by God.

– The Triune God: One God exists in three distinct persons. These three are one, each possessing all the attributes of God.

– The Deity of Jesus Christ born of a virgin fully man, and fully God manifest in the flesh.

– The Substitutionary Atonement of Christ for salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

– The literal Resurrection of Christ to offer salvation and eternal life to all who believe.

– The Return of Christ bodily to reign and rule in heaven and earth

What makes us unique among Christians:
We Believe…

Mid-Acts Pauline Dispensational Right-Division

Jesus Christ gave the Apostle Paul a new, distinct gospel – the revelation of the mystery – which contains the instructions to the church for today

In this dispensation of God’s grace we are not under the law

The King James Bible is a product of God’s promised obligation to perfectly preserve his words

The family relationship is a reflection of God and the church

We are all individually responsible for our choices before God. There is no priesthood today. Christ is the only mediator.

God’s power works through sound doctrine to affect positive change in the world

God’s ambassadors live within the world but should not live as the world

Salvation:
We Believe…

We are saved from sin and death when we trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross and his bodily resurrection. His sinless blood pays for our sins, earns forgiveness, and gives us eternal life.

Salvation is not a product of:

• – Prayer
• – Popes
• – Baptism
• – Confession
• – Good works
• – Turning from sin
• – Commandments
• – Church membership
• – Mass or the Lord’s Supper

Salvation is free to the ungodly who will put their faith in the death, blood, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for their sins (Romans 4:5; Romans 4:24-25; 1 Cor 15:1-4).

Full doctrine statement

patrick jane said:

Of course I do try to obey the ten Commandments, and I fall short. On the two great
commandments hangs ALL the law and the Prophets, per Jesus Christ. That settles it for me.

Click to expand...

Good

patrick jane said:

Salvation is free to the ungodly who will put their faith in the death, blood, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for their sins

Click to expand...

That is another. Faith in him means to do as he commands and if one, after being saved, becomes tempted by the world (as mentioned by the sower parable I posted that you seemed to not even read, one sure fire way of not seeing the truth) and stops doing as Christ said they no longer have faith/are no longer saved. But your explanation to that is no explanation at all because no one can know if they were never saved to begin with. People fall away all the time.

The sower parable makes all that clear. Is that why you skipped it or read it and chose not to comment on it on what was clearly there?

Kenny'sID said:

Good



That is another. Faith in him means to do as he commands and if one, after being saved, becomes tempted by the world (as mentioned by the sower parable I posted that you seemed to not even read, one sure fire way of not seeing the truth) and stops doing as Christ said they no longer have faith/are no longer saved. But your explanation to that is no explanation at all because no one can know if they were never saved to begin with. People fall away all the time.

The sower parable makes all that clear. Is that why you skipped it or read it and chose not to comment on it on what was clearly there?

Click to expand...

I disagree. Faith is not obeying.

patrick jane said:

I disagree. Faith is not obeying.

Click to expand...

Makes sense you would disagree.

Faith in Christ is believing, Faith he is what he says he is and in what he says. Faith is not something we dismiss as just saying it's true makes it true, we HAVE to walk the walk as in the scripture coming up, not go in to denial an miss the part that means we actually have to do something. Faith he is telling the truth here when he talks about obeying/being good:

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Since you are completely evading some important points that don't work for you, meaning you don't want to see them, I'll just leave it with you after this.

Kenny'sID said:

Good



That is another. Faith in him means to do as he commands and if one, after being saved, becomes tempted by the world (as mentioned by the sower parable I posted that you seemed to not even read, one sure fire way of not seeing the truth) and stops doing as Christ said they no longer have faith/are no longer saved. But your explanation to that is no explanation at all because no one can know if they were never saved to begin with. People fall away all the time.

The sower parable makes all that clear. Is that why you skipped it or read it and chose not to comment on it on what was clearly there?

Click to expand...

It seems that you are preaching obedience.
Are you a righteous and godly man? WE CAN KNOW WE ARE SAVED. If you want to dedicate a thread for us, I'm all for it. I will show you what scripture saith. I disagree with Paul that no one seeks God and there were righteous men in the Bible, Job being just one. There are very many scriptures about seeking God and the truth of God. Searching the scriptures also, to see these thing be true. I'm going to post an excerpt on this topic from the church that I respect called Grace Ambassadors. I have a dispensation thread here also where could move this instead of derailing this thread.

Can We Lose Our Salvation By Grace?

In order for us to lose something we must have the responsibility for keeping it secure. Otherwise, we did not lose it, someone else did. We must be very careful as we study the Scripture to sort the mail according to whom it was written. We must not read into a verse what is not there, and must interpret a verse in its proper context. This is what makes dispensational Bible study so helpful to our understanding God’s will and purpose.

In regards to our salvation in the dispensation of grace, we can clearly see that we receive through Paul the message of ‘salvation by grace’. Romans is a wonderful book to illuminate our understanding of salvation by grace in this age.

We learn in Romans 1-3 that men are desperately wicked. In fact, Paul calls them reprobate, sinners, wicked, evil, and deserving of anguish and God’s wrath. Every man, Jew and Gentile has broken God’s law of righteousness and is guilty before a just God who will judge our works in this life, whether they be good or evil.

It is through the use of appealing to man’s conscious and the law of God that Paul identifies every man unworthy and incapable of obtaining righteousness through their own efforts. He concludes in Romans 3:10 by saying, ‘There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.’

Since God demands perfect righteousness for salvation and eternal life, we are all condemned to death and judgment in hell.

However, Paul is given a special revelation from God that explains that now we can receive righteousness and salvation apart from the law (Gal 1:11, 12). In fact, the purpose of the law was never to save anyone, but to show that they were guilty.

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” – Romans 3:19

The law was to bring the ‘knowledge of sin’. But now the righteousness of God can only come through faith in Jesus Christ.

“Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:” – Romans 3:22

Today, we are justified ‘freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus’ (Romans 3:24).

Knowing how we obtained our salvation is crucial to understanding whether we can lose our salvation. Paul clearly teaches that our salvation is by faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ who was made to be our substitution for death, sin, and judgment (2 Cor 5:21, Romans 3:25, Romans 3:23). Since he paid our fine, and we trust in Christ, God can fairly declare us righteous and give us salvation (Eph 1:13).

Trying to ‘keep’ our salvation

The reason that God sent Christ to die on the cross for our sins, was because we could not live lives worthy of obtaining righteousness ourselves. Why then would we think that once we are saved, we can now live lives worthy of God’s righteous judgment without Christ?

Paul speaks to the Galatians about this issue in Galatians 3:3 and 5:4. After having received the grace of God for salvation, the Galatians were now trying to go back under the law to live their lives for God. Paul says ‘Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.’

This seems to be a severe statement but is repeated in 1 Corinthians 1:17 to those who were debating over Paul’s baptism. Paul replied regarding these rituals,

“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” – I Corinthians 1:17

Paul repeatedly teaches that it is not by our own works of righteousness that we are saved. If it were by our works then Christ died in vain! It follows that if we are not saved by works of righteousness then we can not lose our salvation because of a lack of them.

Because we are saved by God’s grace, the sole responsibility for producing the works meet for our salvation lies upon Christ and the efficacy of his death on the cross. Our faith alone would be of no effect for salvation only if God was not able to fulfill that which he promised (Romans 4:21). This of course is unbelief of the first degree!

The whole basis of our salvation is by faith in Christ’s full payment for sins (Ephesians 2:8, Romans 3:22)!

Therefore, if we are saved by grace and then determine that we can lose our justified status simply by not acting obediently or following after righteousness, then we are in essence rejecting the cross, ignoring what Christ came to do! We are also denying our present position in our crucified flesh combating its temptations daily.

As Paul told the Galatians, ‘Christ is become of no effect unto you’. You would have just as much success trying to save yourself without the cross as you would trying to stay saved without the grace of God operating on your behalf.

This discussion will most likely bring up many other questions that you should also find responded to on our question page.

The topic of what happens in salvation is an important topic shrouded with confusion by the powers of darkness of this world. If there are questions that are not answered cleary in this article or on our question page, please submit them through our online form.

Understanding what Christ did on the cross for you is the key to changing your life for eternity! Without the grace of God, every man would have no answer for God on judgment day, but would spend eternity in the lake of fire. Don’t rest until you know that you are saved by the grace of God and have eternity secured through the blood of Christ.

The question should not be ‘Can we lose our salvation by grace?’ Instead it should be, ‘Am I saved by my trust in God’s grace?’

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”- Gal 2:21

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Topical Index Page Published: Monday, September 21st, 2009
Last Modified: July 1, 2016
Related posts:

1. 
   -Are There Many Ways To Salvation?
   -Use It or Lose It
   -What Is the Function of the Law?
   -By Faith and Through Faith
   -Did Paul Preach A Different Gospel?
   -Now That I Am Saved By Grace, May I Sin?
   -Man Always Saved by God’s Grace

Kenny'sID said:

Makes sense you would disagree.

Faith in Christ is believing, Faith he is what he says he is and in what he says. Faith is not something we dismiss as just saying it's true makes it true, we HAVE to walk the walk as in the scripture coming up, not go in to denial an miss the part that means we actually have to do something. Faith he is telling the truth here when he talks about obeying/being good:

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Since you are completely evading some important points that don't work for you, meaning you don't want to see them, I'll just leave it with you after this.

Click to expand...

By Justin Johnson
“Are you saved?”
“I believe in Jesus.”

If you think this is what saves you, you might be deceived. You say, why wouldn’t someone who believes in Jesus be saved?

Because you can believe in Jesus and not be saved.

Don’t get me wrong. I believe in Jesus, too, and think that the salvation of all men is only found in him. Yet, the greatest lies resemble truth. The lie in this false gospel becomes obvious when you consider what is not expressed by this oversimplified statement.

For example, Muslims believe in Jesus: he is considered a prophet in the religion of Islam and the Koran. The Hindus believe in Jesus: he is a great guru for them. Historians believe in Jesus: he was a first century Jew who lived in Galilee. Even the devils in hell believe in Jesus and tremble!

Do you see that there are times when merely believing in Jesus cannot save? Here is how you know when believing in Jesus cannot save you.

When you don’t know who Jesus is.

If you don’t know that Jesus was Christ, the Son of God, then he cannot save you. Jesus said:

“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” – John 8:24

This means Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16; Col 2:9). If he is not, he cannot be your Saviour (Titus 2:13). God is the only Saviour (Isa 43:11). If Jesus is not the fullness of the Godhead bodily, then he is an imposter, a liar, or worse.

When you don’t know what Jesus did.

Why did Jesus need to die? If you don’t know, then let me be frank: you are not saved, but you can be.

Maybe he was not crucified at all like the Koran wrongly teaches? Perhaps he died naturally, or died without blood like some false Bibles teach. If he did not die, shedding his blood, cursed on a cross, then your sins cannot be forgiven (Eph 1:7; Heb 9:22).

Without the cross, God has no means to save anyone.

Did he not rise from the dead? Then, you have no proof Jesus was Christ, no hope of glory, no comfort in death, no salvation from sins, and no expectation of eternal life (Rom 4:25; Matt 12:40; 1 Thess 4:14).

“And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.” – 1 Corinthians 15:17

When Jesus did not complete the work.

James, the apostle to the twelve tribes, writes that faith without works is dead. Mere belief in Jesus does not justify unto salvation. After all, even the devils believe and know who Jesus is:

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”- James 2:19

“ And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.” – Luke 4:41

James was teaching justification to the twelve tribes of Israel under their law covenant. This was not written with the knowledge of the mystery of Christ, the gospel of God’s grace.

The gospel of grace is that Christ did all the work necessary for your salvation (Rom 4:5; Titus 3:5). This is called grace, and it is offered freely (Rom 3:24).

There is nothing else that need be done (Col 2:10). How can this be? Christ did it all. Your only response is faith.

The only way to be saved is by grace through faith, and this is only possible if the work needed to save you was completed by Christ, the object of your faith.

If you think you must contribute some work in order to seal the deal with God, then believing in Christ is not enough to save you. You are not trusting his finished work on your behalf (i.e his grace to you).

How Believing in Jesus Can Save You

The Lord Jesus Christ revealed the gospel that saves any man today to the apostle Paul. This gospel of grace allows Christ to save through mere belief in the gospel of Christ (Eph 1:13)

“To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” – Romans 3:25

Before that time, the righteousness of God to save by faith alone was not known, and so faith by itself would impugn the righteousness of God to save (James 2:20).

Christ had to make himself known to Israel for people to believe who he was, he had to die and resurrect for men to know what he did, and the mystery of the gospel had to be revealed before belief could stand alone without works, law, or Israel (i.e. pure grace).

There was a time when belief in Jesus was either impossible, or insufficient, but now according to the revelation of the mystery, faith in Christ is what saves upon hearing the gospel of the grace of God.

Jesus was God in the flesh who died for your sins, rose from the dead, and revealed the gospel of his finished work having done everything necessary for your salvation. Trust him to be saved according to the gospel of grace.

If you don’t know who Jesus is, what he did, or fail to trust his finished work, then believing in Jesus cannot save you.

Are you saved?

“I believe in Jesus”

So what. What do you believe about him? How does he save you? How do you know?

Top of the Page
Article IndexPublished: December 30, 2017
Last Modified: January 6, 2018
Related posts:

1. 
   -When Can Works Justify
   -How Do I Know I Am Saved?
   -Mid-Acts Dispensational Right Division is a Gospel Issue
   -Is Everyone Forgiven?
   -What is the Gift of God
   -Faith in What?
   -Works Never Saved Anyone

PetraFan007 said:

There is a God— the source, the light, —He is a person and is love.
The SOURCE/LIGHT came to earth in a human body as Jesus/Yeshua. He lived the life Adam should have lived. He showed love throughout all pain, rejection, shame to show it is superior to everything else. He died for our sins (save us from ourselves) and rose again to give us hope of eternal life after death. This is the gospel.

Click to expand...

You are right. You accept the gospel. You may have many other eccentric believe that are far outside the Christian norm, but anyone who professes the gospel and is baptized is a Christian.