Is it okay to Weaponize the Gospel?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 18.2%
  • No

    Votes: 7 63.6%
  • Sometimes

    Votes: 2 18.2%

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Lily of Valleys

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For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. -- John 3

In John 6:37, Jesus says, “All that the Father gives me will come to me.” And in verse 44, he says, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” And in verse 65, he says, “No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

In other words, most of the work of the salvation of any person is already done by God without and before he hears the Gospel from an evangelist.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10

People who have been given by the Father to the Son, people who have been convicted by the Holy Spirit, people who have been drawn by the Father are also people who are already prepared to follow the voice of Jesus.

So the gospel is actually for certain people in the crowd, and those people have been prepared to respond to it. This cannot say that the evangelist can determine who they are, but he can be confident that if he goes where the Holy Spirit directs and actually preaches the Good News of salvation, those who have been enabled by the Father will respond.

All the evangelist has to do is speak in Jesus' voice, the voice of Jesus to His sheep, not the voice of Jesus to the wolves and vipers.

Some people will say, "We must convict sinners of their sin," but scripture says:

And when He [the Holy Spirit] has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. -- John 16

So, no, it's not the job of the Gospel evangelist to convict sinners of their sins...that's the Holy Spirit's job. And the Holy Spirit is qualified because He knows each person's sins...which the evangelist does not. The evangelist will be slashing his "weaponized gospel" around like a meat cleaver while only the Holy Spirit knows exactly where and how to "slice" at that particular person's own hard point of sin.

So convicting the sinner is properly the job of the Holy Spirit, just as scripture says. The evangelist can do nothing but mess it up and possibly delay the work.

I know a woman, a member of a former congregation I was a member of in Washington DC, who had formerly been a prostitute. I've told this story in this forum a couple of times before, so I'll cut it short.

She had heard street preachers many times before. They had always pointed to her and "told her the truth with love" that she was a vile sinner and that her sin was taking her to hell. You, see, they had to convict her first.

But her reaction was: "Okay, so I'm going to hell. My life is already hell. Bye, Felicia."

Until one night, on the first night my congregation set out to preach to the prostitutes on that street, this evangelist preached something she'd never heard before. He and his fellows later noted among themselves something they hadn't realized until later: That this woman had never seemed to be listening to the sermon, yet she had never actually strayed out of earshot.

But when the evangelist finished his sermon, she walked up to him and actually poked her finger in his chest, demanding: "That stuff you said about being a new creation in Christ and all the old things going away...is that the truth?"

Nobody had ever preached that to her before. She'd been told by previous preachers she was going to hell because they all thought they needed to do the Holy Spirit's job and convict her of her sin. The Holy Spirit had already convicted her of her sin--which is why she hung around when an evangelist finally tool the next step and actually preached the gospel of the Savior.

You see, for those who have been given to Christ by the Father, "You're going to hell" is not the truth...it's a lie, because Christ will not lose any of them.

"You're going to hell" is the voce of the Accuser. The sheep of Jesus will not heed that voice because for them it's a lie. Their destiny is not hell, their destiny is heaven.

"You are a new creation in Christ" is the voice of Jesus, and Jesus' sheep will know His voice when they hear it.
I agree with what you said with regard to unbelievers. However, Apostle Paul has made a distinction between how we should treat unbelievers and those who claim to be believers:

I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)​
 
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Grip Docility

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I agree with what you said with regard to unbelievers. However, Apostle Paul has made a distinction between how we should treat unbelievers and those who claim to be believers:

I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)​

OIC...

First it’s convict the Unbelievers... now it’s convict the believer...

Wow... Thank goodness Jesus has you and others that are ready to do His Job for Him...

;)
 
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Lily of Valleys

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OIC...

First it’s convict the Unbelievers... now it’s convict the believer...

Wow... Thank goodness Jesus has you and others that are ready to do His Job for Him...

;)
If you have any issue with what Apostle Paul said, take it up to him. :D
 
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Kenny'sID

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Does that offend you?

Of course not, I just think you are wrong.

Are you saying what revolves around this scripture is wrong, and we are not to call people out, and even ignore them, all depending?

1 Corinthians 5:

9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”d


I can look it up for you if you don't already know, but as I understand it, this type thing is supposed to be of concern, we are to bring it to the perpetrators attention, and then not even eat with them if they continue in their ways.

So, we know everyone sins some, and that the people spoken of here that are to call certain sins out, are sinners too, so you are saying because of that, we should not be so hard on the one doing big sins as opposed to the little ones, something that is clearly the case here, as this scripture clearly says to do?

Your ideas are not biblical....again, you are minimizing this, and saying since we are all guilty of something we should not call the real bad things out. Actually, the bold says we ARE to judge them.
 
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bugkiller

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I have not seen any posters in quite some time (most banned) demand or preach such here at CF.
That is done at least by implication all the time in the law forum. And no they are not banned.
What I have seen quite often and is error as well are themes where posters strongly suggest or state one must keep the law to "stay saved" and those who preach certain sins are not sins.
That is the same thing.

bugkiller
 
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RDKirk

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I agree with what you said with regard to unbelievers. However, Apostle Paul has made a distinction between how we should treat unbelievers and those who claim to be believers:

I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)​

This goes to Jesus' curse upon hypocrites. And that was, indeed, a curse. When the Lord of All Creation commands "Woe upon you!" the forces of woe in the universe stand up.
 
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bugkiller

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That's actually not accurate. What derails these threads are posters who argue sin is not sin so they don't have to repent (turn from) sin. When someone takes such a position and someone argues using the Bible they are mistaken, such a person is labeled a legalist and heartless.


It's the same rhetoric and strategy the left uses in politics to demonize their opponents and stifle open meaningful discussion and debate.

Your quoted post above applies this strategy whether you are aware of it or not.
When it involves the law, yes. I do not know of anyone who promotes the idea you present except those who demand the law be kept at least to retain salvation. They most generally use a half quote from I Jn 3:4. No one yet has shown me any place John talks about the law in regard to anything except by misquoting or misusing the word "commandment(s)."

bugkiller
 
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Kenny'sID

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And is that the primary thing Christians should be doing, trying to convince other people they are wrong? Isn't this a bit like the Catholic Church trying to convince Gallileo he was wrong? They had alot of Biblical support too.

In truth, this sort of religious impulse is misguided and it leaves in its wake a path of misery and ignorance. Fortunately, it has nothing to do with following Jesus.

No, it's a bit like scripture says to do.

Read Corinthians. And of course you are going to tell us doing what the Bible clearly says to do has nothing to do with following Jesus. Problem is, it's just not going to fly, most are in touch with reality because they have no reason not to be, and they know what you are doing...justifying in any, and every way you think you can get others to believe/side with you, or even help you to believe yourself.

I think what you said right there is "weaponized" ?
 
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redleghunter

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People only feel guilt if they perceive what they have done is wrong. We are talking about those who don't think their sin is sin and argue to be so. Why would there be guilt if they don't think they have done anything wrong?!

People's sins are between themselves and God, so if anyone want to convince themselves they have done no wrong, it is their choice. However, if they turn around to promote those sins as not sins, it is what's causing a stumbling block to our brothers and sisters who are genuinely struggling with the same sins but have chosen to live an obedient life. That is the very thing I have a problem with.
And the above is the succinct refutation of the underlying OP subject. Well done by God's grace.
 
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RDKirk

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This is 100% on point!!!

Amen to the 10th power!!!!

With the exception of the predestining idea... I know Reform when I see it...

But the core of your message is beautiful!

I'm not a Reformer.

Paul was not preaching to people who had no prior religious beliefs. The Graeco-Romans were very religious. But the gods they had previously worshiped were gods of fickle will and whim. One day Zeus loved you, the next day he cursed you. Paul's point is that God's salvation is not a matter of a moment's whim, but the result of His plan from before creation, therefore their faith could be firm.

In addition, it gives confidence to the evangelist that his preaching is not in vain--there are, indeed, those who are ready to hear the gospel.

There's nothing more that we should try to derive from it.
 
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Kenny'sID

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OIC...

First it’s convict the Unbelievers... now it’s convict the believer...

Wow... Thank goodness Jesus has you and others that are ready to do His Job for Him...

;)

You haven't the slightest clue there.

If the believer is acting like an unbeliever, what is he? jeez
 
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PeaceByJesus

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For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. -- John 3

In John 6:37, Jesus says, “All that the Father gives me will come to me.” And in verse 44, he says, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” And in verse 65, he says, “No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

In other words, most of the work of the salvation of any person is already done by God without and before he hears the Gospel from an evangelist.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10

People who have been given by the Father to the Son, people who have been convicted by the Holy Spirit, people who have been drawn by the Father are also people who are already prepared to follow the voice of Jesus.

So the gospel is actually for certain people in the crowd, and those people have been prepared to respond to it. This cannot say that the evangelist can determine who they are, but he can be confident that if he goes where the Holy Spirit directs and actually preaches the Good News of salvation, those who have been enabled by the Father will respond.

All the evangelist has to do is speak in Jesus' voice, the voice of Jesus to His sheep, not the voice of Jesus to the wolves and vipers.

Some people will say, "We must convict sinners of their sin," but scripture says:

And when He [the Holy Spirit] has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. -- John 16

So, no, it's not the job of the Gospel evangelist to convict sinners of their sins...that's the Holy Spirit's job.
It was the job of the Holy Spirit to inspire holy men to pen the words of Christ, and likewise works thru holy men to convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, which His inspired word reveals. The work of the Spirit and the instrumentality of men is not an either/or situation, but a cooperation, "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." (1 Corinthians 3:9)

For instance, beginning in Acts 2, we see mystified and and scoffers being told that what they heard Scripturally signified the beginning of the Last Days, and that they in unbelief had murdered their own manifestly God-sent Messiah, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."(Acts 2:23)

Which is sin, "Of sin, because they believe not on me;" (John 16:9)

But that God raised Him up, "Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it," (Acts 2:24)

Which is righteousness, "Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;" (John 16:10)

And that this Christ now sat on the Father's throne, (Acts 2:30) as present savior and future judge, "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool." (Acts 2:34-35)

Which is judgment, "Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged," (John 16:11) first of enemy #1, and chief murderer, and then those who were deceived by him.

Thus they were convicted of their need for salvation in the light of their sins and judgment to come,

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:37-38)

Likewise in Acts 7, holy Stephan reiterates the impenitence of Israel and then applies this to the leaders who opposed his preaching, but being convicted of their sins they remained impenitent and sought to silence their conscience by killing Stephan.

Likewise in Acts 13, Paul gives a similar sermon to the Jews, concluding, "Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you." (Acts 13:40-41)

And though "many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas" when other Jews "saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming," (Acts 13:45) resulting in Paul focusing on the Gentiles in judgment upon them.

Later, Paul "reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come" with Felix, who, being thus convicted, "trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee." (Acts 24:25)

Thus it is clear that the Holy Spirit uses men to convict souls of of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, though He is under no obligation to do so. Souls appreciate their needs for salvation in the light of the holiness and judgment of almighty God, and as in Scripture, preaching needs to aim as the conscience and sow faith in the heart.
She had heard street preachers many times before. They had always pointed to her and "told her the truth with love" that she was a vile sinner and that her sin was taking her to hell. You, see, they had to convict her first.

But her reaction was: "Okay, so I'm going to hell. My life is already hell. Bye, Felicia."

Until one night, on the first night my congregation set out to preach to the prostitutes on that street, this evangelist preached something she'd never heard before. He and his fellows later noted among themselves something they hadn't realized until later: That this woman had never seemed to be listening to the sermon, yet she had never actually strayed out of earshot.

But when the evangelist finished his sermon, she walked up to him and actually poked her finger in his chest, demanding: "That stuff you said about being a new creation in Christ and all the old things going away...is that the truth?"

Nobody had ever preached that to her before. She'd been told by previous preachers she was going to hell because they all thought they needed to do the Holy Spirit's job and convict her of her sin. The Holy Spirit had already convicted her of her sin--which is why she hung around when an evangelist finally tool the next step and actually preached the gospel of the Savior.
And the preaching of the evangelist is not contrary to her conversion but foundational, as the gospel of the Savior includes pointing out sin, and is not simply about who Christ is. The one precedes the others, but both are necessary, and Christ convicted souls of sin, and thus called them to repentance, and commanded His own to do likewise.

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (Mark 7:21-23)

But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep. (Luke 6:24-25)

The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. (John 7:7)

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47)
 
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FireDragon76

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No, it's a bit like scripture says to do.

"it's not me being a legalist, it's the Bible".

Look, the Bible doesn't say anything on its own, it doesn't have a mouth to speak. People interpret the Bible and pretend to speak for God. It's this ridiculous notion that the Bible absolves us of personal responsibility for our beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors that is problematic. It's spiritually immature and dangerous in the modern world. It belongs in the dustbin of history as a failed idea. And it has nothing to do with following Jesus.
 
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redleghunter

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1 John 1:8 and James 2:10 are all I need to see through your demand that carnal perfection is a requirement.

Many Christians are “sorry” but they keep screwing up...

Many meaning all!

You’re preaching an unobtainable double standard that sets up to dictate who is saved and who isn’t by carnal judgment.

Clear enough for you?
Again you attribute words to me unsaid or even alluded by me. The rhetoric of the left in a theology thread. Interesting.

I wasn't presenting an unattainable standard just pointing out the definition of sin which is a response to the Holiness of a Graceful God.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Hmmmm... antinomian...?

And there it is... What did Paul mean by Drive out the Slave woman and her son?

It appears your idol is the Decalogue. It appears you worship what was carved on Sinai by Moses Hands (Second time around) as your salvation.

How unexpected to come out.
Rather rather such disproved, fallacious flailing attempts at diversion, why not just finally answer the questions repeatedly asked of you? Again, whats to hide?
 
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Kenny'sID

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I agree with what you said with regard to unbelievers. However, Apostle Paul has made a distinction between how we should treat unbelievers and those who claim to be believers:

I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)​

Oops someone beat me too it. :)
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Yes, that's more or less what I said.
Why not just answer the questions asked twice before of your comrade, "So sexual relations outside marriage is only sin for the Christian if in relation to idolatry, or otherwise apart from a loving monogamous relationship, but is not necessarily sin for the Christian apart from marriage? Yes or no?"

And in that context, are homosexual relations ever conditionally sanctioned? Yes or no? What's to hide?
 
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