7th Trumpet Rapture?

Riberra said:

Yes, you said it ...but there is obviously a big difference between what you said and what is written in Revelation 4:1-2 ....

Can you show us where in the TEXT OF Revelation 4:1-2 it is WRITTEN that the Church is raptured to Heaven ?

Here the text:
Revelation 4:1-2
1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, [a voice] as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

2 Straightway I was in the Spirit: and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting upon the throne;

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riberra,

1. It doesn’t have to have a plain statement saying there is a pre-trib rapture anymore than a post rapture.
Proper context has to be understood with proper Biblical Hermeneutics which you don’t seem to understood.

2. Matthew 25:31 just says that the son of man will come in his glory and all his holy angels and then he’ll sit on his throne.
There’s nothing that says there’s a rapture.

3. Revelation 19:11 has the raptured saints coming out of Heaven to do war at Armageddon verses 11-15. There is no rapture.
Acts 1:11 said Jesus would come back to earth just like he said and there is no rapture there.
The two witnesses are raptured by themselves with the remnant.
The 144,000 were raptured as the man child and were raptured to Heaven in Revelation 14:1-5 as the firstfruits of the tribulation. But there was no dead among them or the two witness and that was in the middle tribulation.
The souls under the altar were in the first half and had wait for their brethren to be killed to gain vengeance. No living believes rapture with them.
Those who sang the song of Moses and the lamb were martyred who didn’t take the mark in Revelation 15:1-2 and they are pictured in Heaven right before the 7 vials began.
There are no living believers raptured with them and they were the ones in the First Resurrection Revelation 20:4-6.
So your hermeneutics is plainly wrong.
Even in Revelation 6 has the different classes of men seeing God on his throne but there is no rapture there. So you are wrong. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

riberra,
Even in Revelation 6 has the different classes of men seeing God on his throne but there is no rapture there.

The 144,000 were raptured as the man child and were raptured to Heaven in Revelation 14:1-5 as the firstfruits

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Exactly... no one described in the Book of Revelation have ascended in Heaven via a rapture while they were alive , at the exception of the 144,000 who have been redeemed from the Earth mentioned in Revelation 14:1-5.

The two witnesses have been killed [Revelation 11:7-12 ]and have been resurrected before being taken to Heaven.


Now if you read the rest of the text mentioned in Revelation 14 ,you will see that it is addressed to all those alive on the Earth who are not part of [the 144,000 who are the only ones who are clearly cited in the text who have been redeemed from among men..
Revelation 14:9-13
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, IF ANY MAN worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard the voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.

Riberra said:

Exactly... no one described in the Book of Revelation have ascended in Heaven via a rapture while they were alive , at the exception of the 144,000 who have been redeemed from the Earth mentioned in Revelation 14.

The two witnesses have been killed [Revelation 11:7-12 ]and have been resurrected before being taken to Heaven.


Now if you read the rest of the text mentioned in Revelation 14 ,you will see that it is addressed to all those alive on the Earth who are not part of [the 144,000 who are the only ones who are clearly cited in the text who have been redeemed from among men..
Revelation 14:9-13
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard the voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.

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ribbera,
You obviously don’t understand heremeneuitics very well.
A plain Statement is not the only hermeneutical to prove a passage. There is context and even plain statements have context.

2. 1st John 3:9 says whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin
and 1 John 2:2 says Jesus is our propitiation for our sins (Christians) and not ours only but the sins of the whole world.
Both were plain statements but both cannot be right because one says we sin and the other says we can’t. This is where context comes in.

3. There is a rapture and resurrection at the same time with living and dead believers 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
This is in perfect harmony with 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 of being changed from mortality to immortality etc. It was a mystery and the last day wasn’t and it is just a resurrection of the dead.

4. Revelation 1:19 is the time factor and I have already elaborate on it.
What John saw was the vision of the candlesticks, the present things were the churches of Asia historically, but the complete church because it is prophetic.
The things thereafter will be after the church age which will be the rapture to Heaven for the saints will be there and then the tribulation begins to the New Heaven and New Earth and the Joly City etc. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

The things thereafter will be after the church age which will be the rapture to Heaven for the saints will be there and then the tribulation begins to the New Heaven and New Earth and the Joly City etc.

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Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, and it has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, there will be no end of the "Church Age", before the Second Coming of Christ.

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Riberra said:

What He WILL Do is what is WRITTEN in the Book,

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Correct exactly what he says he will do !

Riberra said:

Revelation 4:1-2
1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, [a voice] as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.
2 Straightway I was in the Spirit: and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting upon the throne;

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Rev 4 1. After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

God called to John and said COME UP HERE --John went UP into Heaven

That is exactly what the the scripture says - you read it - you posted it -but yet you do not understand it
Your carnal way of understanding prevents you from seeing truth
You do not understand what Gods Holy Days are , you have shown no understanding of anything pertaining to the Jewish culture and ancient laws of Israel traditions resulting in your lack of understanding biblical teachings
You view is from a 20th century western world tradition and cultural view which blinds you from seeing what the truth of Gods Word say.

Simply put God called John up into heaven in Spirit - Angels are in Spirit form - Jesus was in Spirit form when he resurrected but yet he had a physical form that could be touched - what scripture tells us that he shed the Spiritual body when He went up into heaven ?
God called down to earth to John and said COME UP HERE - then John was IN HEAVEN standing in front of Jesus sitting on the Throne
Your Hollywood idea of spirit as some ghostly figure that has no legs or arms and just floats around is simply not what John had when He went up into Heaven
FYI Virtual reality is not a true reality
Heaven IS REALITY in it's Purest Form!

seventysevens said:

Rev 4 1. After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

God called to John and said COME UP HERE --John went UP into Heaven

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John's body never left the Island of Patmos.

John's body was not like a Yo-Yo traveling back and forth from earth to heaven and back again, while he was shown the Book of Revelation.

The two witnesses are taken up into a cloud, when they are told "Come up here."

That is not the same thing as what John experienced.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

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BABerean2 said:

John's body never left the Island of Patmos.

John's body was not like a Yo-Yo traveling back and forth from earth to heaven and back again, while he was shown the Book of Revelation.

The two witnesses are taken up into a cloud, when they are told "Come up here."

That is not the same thing as what John experienced.


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You obviously did not understand what I wrote as I did not imply nor say that John went up and down - you saying that shows you do not understand what is written

John went UP into Heaven in Spirit - John outright say He was in Heaven and describes what he saw while in heaven . again I did not say Johns body went into heaven BUT Spirits do have a form they are NOT some bedsheet floating around with no arms and no legs
The Two witnesses are called up into heaven and stay there until Jesus returns -John only visited heaven long enough for him to see what God wanted to show him.

What part of God calling John UP INTO Heaven do you not understand ?

Rev 4 1. After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

God called to John and said COME UP HERE --John went UP into Heaven

That is exactly what the the scripture says - you read it - you posted it -but yet you do not understand it
Your carnal way of understanding prevents you from seeing truth
You do not understand what Gods Holy Days are , you have shown no understanding of anything pertaining to the Jewish culture and ancient laws of Israel traditions resulting in your lack of understanding biblical teachings
You view is from a 20th century western world tradition and cultural view which blinds you from seeing what the truth of Gods Word say.

Simply put God called John up into heaven in Spirit - Angels are in Spirit form - Jesus was in Spirit form when he resurrected but yet he had a physical form that could be touched - what scripture tells us that he shed the Spiritual body when He went up into heaven ?
God called down to earth to John and said COME UP HERE - then John was IN HEAVEN standing in front of Jesus sitting on the Throne
Your Hollywood idea of spirit as some ghostly figure that has no legs or arms and just floats around is simply not what John had when He went up into Heaven

Truth7t7 said:

Your response does nothing to detract from the truth of scripture below.

Yes the event of the post-trib catching up and resurrection takes place "immediately after the tribulation"

You have proven nothing with your bold underlining.

Same Lord, Angels, Trump, Second Coming.

Post trib-rapture, catching up, resurrection.

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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There is NO RESURRECTION mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31
You have to imagine one.

Riberra said:

Yes, you said it ...but there is obviously a big difference between what you said and what is written in Revelation 4:1-2 ....

Can you show us where in the TEXT OF Revelation 4:1-2 it is WRITTEN that the Church is raptured to Heaven ?

Here the text:
Revelation 4:1-2
1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, [a voice] as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

2 Straightway I was in the Spirit: and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting upon the throne;

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ANYONE that claims REv. 4:1 is about the rapture is simply mistaken. It is John taken up.

According to Paul, HIS rapture (the one HE wrote about) will cause the Day of the Lord to follow immediately. That puts the rapture just before the 6th seal. The 5th seal gives us a great hint that the rapture would follow.

It is clear then why John saw a huge crowd too large to number right after that.

BABerean2 said:

Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, and it has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, there will be no end of the "Church Age", before the Second Coming of Christ.

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baberean2,

1 The New Covenant is everlasting and the church age ends when it is raptured from the earth to Heaven.


2. The church age saints are not pictured after Revelation 5 till Revelation 19:7-11 when they come out of Heaven with Christ to battle at Armageddon.

3. 1 Corinthians 10:32 shows the distinction between Jews, Gentiles and the Church.

4. During the tribulation the church age saints are in Heaven Revelation 4:1, 5:9-10; 11:18; and 19:7-10.

5. The time of Jacob’s trouble is designed for Israel to come back to God Matthew 25:13-21 and fulfill their covenants Romans 11:29.

6. You are wrong again and still have not exegetes Hebrews 8:6-12; especially 10:12. Why?because you can’t. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

1 The New Covenant is everlasting and the church age ends when it is raptured from the earth to Heaven.


2. The church age saints are not pictured after Revelation 5 till Revelation 19:7-11 when they come out of Heaven with Christ to battle at Armageddon.

3. 1 Corinthians 10:32 shows the distinction between Jews, Gentiles and the Church.

4. During the tribulation the church age saints are in Heaven Revelation 4:1, 5:9-10; 11:18; and 19:7-10.

5. The time of Jacob’s trouble is designed for Israel to come back to God Matthew 25:13-21 and fulfill their covenants Romans 11:29.

6. You are wrong again and still have not exegetes Hebrews 8:6-12; especially 10:12. Why?because you can’t. Jerry kelso

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I believe the word you are attempting is "exegeted", from the word "exegesis".

Hebrews 8:6-13 shows the promise of the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is fulfilled by Christ during the first century.

Verse 13 says the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

The text is pretty straight-forward. There is not much there to be "exegeted".


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

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jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

1 The New Covenant is everlasting and the church age ends when it is raptured from the earth to Heaven.


2. The church age saints are not pictured after Revelation 5 till Revelation 19:7-11 when they come out of Heaven with Christ to battle at Armageddon.

3. 1 Corinthians 10:32 shows the distinction between Jews, Gentiles and the Church.

4. During the tribulation the church age saints are in Heaven Revelation 4:1, 5:9-10; 11:18; and 19:7-10.

5. The time of Jacob’s trouble is designed for Israel to come back to God Matthew 25:13-21 and fulfill their covenants Romans 11:29.

6. You are wrong again and still have not exegetes Hebrews 8:6-12; especially 10:12. Why?because you can’t. Jerry kelso

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"The church age saints are not pictured after Revelation 5 till Revelation 19"
Jerry, this is not quite true. The 5th seal is about martyrs of the church age, and they are STILL being martyred today - the number climbs day after day.

If you had said after chapter 7, I would agree.

iamlamad said:

"The church age saints are not pictured after Revelation 5 till Revelation 19"
Jerry, this is not quite true. The 5th seal is about martyrs of the church age, and they are STILL being martyred today - the number climbs day after day.

If you had said after chapter 7, I would agree.

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iamlamad,

1. That is not possible because the church age saints are in Heaven Revelation 4 and 5 before the lamb begins to open the seals.

2. The antichrist is coming to power in the first four seals and the martyrs in the fifth seal will be the result of all the killing spree and famine etc.

3. They have to wait for their fellow brethren who have to be killed which are the tribulations saints in the time of Jacob’s trouble Revelation 15:1-2.

4. The seals, trumpets and vials are opened consecutively.
Revelation 5:9-10 are the church age saints represented by the 24 elders. They will reign as Kings, Priests and Rulers in the kingdom to come. Jerry Kelso

BABerean2 said:

I believe the word you are attempting is "exegeted", from the word "exegesis".

Hebrews 8:6-13 shows the promise of the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is fulfilled by Christ during the first century.

Verse 13 says the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

The text is pretty straight-forward. There is not much there to be "exegeted".


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

.

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baberean2,

1. Pardon the typo.

2. You keep pawning off to other verses which have nothing to do with the main context.
Verses 10-12 is what you skate away from because you can’t reconcile it with the passage.

3. We are the NC church but the church age will end at the rapture.
The tribulation saints that believe can still be considered a NC believer because they are saved by the NC. It doesn’t mean they are a part of those who were in the church age unless you believe the church goes through the tribulation, which they don’t.
So you are wrong again and are trying to play on words not to mention you are trying to rob Israel of its covenant blessings in their earthly calling that God promises them. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

1. Pardon the typo.

2. You keep pawning off to other verses which have nothing to do with the main context.
Verses 10-12 is what you skate away from because you can’t reconcile it with the passage.

3. We are the NC church but the church age will end at the rapture.
The tribulation saints that believe can still be considered a NC believer because they are saved by the NC. It doesn’t mean they are a part of those who were in the church age unless you believe the church goes through the tribulation, which they don’t.
So you are wrong again and are trying to play on words not to mention you are trying to rob Israel of its covenant blessings in their earthly calling that God promises them. Jerry kelso

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Jerry you keep claiming a pre-trib rapture, no such thing in scripture.

You claim others are negligent with the scriptures, you ever consider that you have been looking in a mirror.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the dispy claim of a pretrib rapture, you will closely note the "Resurrection" of the dead in Christ.

John 6:40 clearly teaches the dead in Christ are "Resurrected" on the last day.

Jerry you teach in error that this last day does not apply to the verses above?

100% error.

Jerry you clearly disregard this scriptural truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

1. Pardon the typo.

2. You keep pawning off to other verses which have nothing to do with the main context.
Verses 10-12 is what you skate away from because you can’t reconcile it with the passage.

3. We are the NC church but the church age will end at the rapture.
The tribulation saints that believe can still be considered a NC believer because they are saved by the NC. It doesn’t mean they are a part of those who were in the church age unless you believe the church goes through the tribulation, which they don’t.
So you are wrong again and are trying to play on words not to mention you are trying to rob Israel of its covenant blessings in their earthly calling that God promises them. Jerry kelso

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The description above is complete nonsense, because the word "Church" is defined as all those individuals who have placed their faith in Christ, starting on the Day of Pentecost.

You cannot separate the Church and any member of the New Covenant.

This is confirmed by the passage below, where we find the word "church" and "new covenant" together.


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

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Truth7t7 said:

Jerry you keep claiming a pre-trib rapture, no such thing in scripture.

You claim others are negligent with the scriptures, you ever consider that you have been looking in a mirror.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the dispy claim of a pretrib rapture, you will closely note the "Resurrection" of the dead in Christ.

John 6:40 clearly teaches the dead in Christ are "Resurrected" on the last day.

Jerry you teach in error that this last day does not apply to the verses above?

100% error.

Jerry you clearly disregard this scriptural truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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truth7t7,

You are wrong.
The dead in Christ are raised with living believers in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
It is a mystery that Old Testament believers never knew 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

2. The last day is a resurrection of the dead not living believers raptured with them John 6:40.

3. The last Resurrection is the First Resurrection are those in 15:1-2. And in 14:13 are the blessed dead who die henceforth.
They are all dead and resurrected and there are no living believers with them.

4. You are falsely inserting living believers in with the last day Resurrection and that is incorrect. So I’m sorry but you are wrong. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 said:

The description above is complete nonsense, because the word "Church" is defined as all those individuals who have placed their faith in Christ, starting on the Day of Pentecost.

You cannot separate the Church and any member of the New Covenant.

This is confirmed by the passage below, where we find the word "church" and "new covenant" together.


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

.

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baberean2,

1. For the fact you ignore Hebrews 8:10-12 and cannot reconcile them together with your false doctrine about Israel having already accepted the New Covenant at Calvary shows you do not understand Israel’s earthly calling and you do not wish to believe it because you know you are wrong.
You know nothing much about proper rebuttal or correct context of the scripture. You are wrong once again. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

truth7t7,

You are wrong.
The dead in Christ are raised with living believers in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
It is a mystery that Old Testament believers never knew 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

2. The last day is a resurrection of the dead not living believers raptured with them John 6:40.

3. The last Resurrection is the First Resurrection are those in 15:1-2. And in 14:13 are the blessed dead who die henceforth.
They are all dead and resurrected and there are no living believers with them.

4. You are falsely inserting living believers in with the last day Resurrection and that is incorrect. So I’m sorry but you are wrong. Jerry kelso

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There ya go Jerry, trying to pawn off that the resurrection of the dead in Christ seen does not apply to John 6:40 below, a teaching in complete error!

There are two groups seen!

1.) The dead in Christ, those in the grave being "Resurrected"

2.) Those that are alive remaining are "caught up"

How long will you deny this basic scriptural truth?

Jerry you keep claiming a pre-trib rapture, no such thing in scripture.

You claim others are negligent with the scriptures, you ever consider that you have been looking in a mirror.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the dispy claim of a pretrib rapture, you will closely note the "Resurrection" of the dead in Christ.

John 6:40 clearly teaches the dead in Christ are "Resurrected" on the last day.

Jerry you teach in error that this last day does not apply to the verses above?

100% error.

Jerry you clearly disregard this scriptural truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Truth7t7 said:

There ya go Jerry, trying to pawn off that the resurrection of the dead in Christ seen does not apply to John 6:40 below, a teaching in complete error!

There are two groups seen!

1.) The dead in Christ, those in the grave being "Resurrected"

2.) Those that are alive remaining are "caught up"

How long will you deny this basic scriptural truth?

Jerry you keep claiming a pre-trib rapture, no such thing in scripture.

You claim others are negligent with the scriptures, you ever consider that you have been looking in a mirror.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the dispy claim of a pretrib rapture, you will closely note the "Resurrection" of the dead in Christ.

John 6:40 clearly teaches the dead in Christ are "Resurrected" on the last day.

Jerry you teach in error that this last day does not apply to the verses above?

100% error.

Jerry you clearly disregard this scriptural truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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truth7t7,

1. Do you really lack the simple understanding of what I actually said?

2. See, what you don’t understand is that Jesus taught the Old Covenant under the KoH and the KoG message Matthew 4:17; 6:33; Luke 17:20-21.

3. The resurrection of the dead was an Old Testament doctrine John 6:40; Hebrews 6:1-2.
Daniel 12:3-4 is a resurrection of the dead believers and a resurrection of dead unbelievers. These are participants of the First Resurrection; Revelation 20:4-6 and the Second Resurrection Revelation 20:12-15. They are 1000 years apart Revelation 20:5.

4. Revelation 5:9-11; souls under the altar are martyrs and cannot get vengeance until their fellow brethren die, which are the tribulation martyrs. This composes the blessed dead and those who sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb Revelation 15:1-2.

5. The Old Testament doctrine of the dead does not contain living believers because it was a mystery to them. Read 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 when Paul revealed this.
This means that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is a New Testament doctrine not the Old Testament.
As far as Post tribute rapture there is none and you have no proof.

6. Btw, I never said there was no last day, but they are dead believers only.
The fact that the rapture of living and dead believers was a mystery and is a New Testament doctrine and the fact that you can’t show both companies are at the last day is just a few reasons why you are totally off base.
Quit having tunnel vision and believe the truth.
The second coming doesn’t have anything to do with living and dead in Christ being raptured together at the same time.
The Second Coming is about the Heavenly saints of Old and New Testament that have been made complete together Hebrews 11:40. Is about saints coming out of Heaven to go to war at Armageddon not being resurrected.

7. You can disagree but you cannot successively rebut the scriptures and their context that I gave. Jerry kelso