Paul vs James who is right?

bugkiller · Feb 27, 2018

aiki said:
I think your question here has already been fully answered in this thread. Why won't you accept the answers that have been offered? Why just throw out this additional protest rather than properly countering the arguments you've rejected? What's the point in responding to your questions when, apparently, you'll just ignore them?

Paul did not believe a saving faith would remain unexpressed in the manner of one's living. Over and over again in his letters he indicates that genuine salvation results in a transformed life. Here are a few good examples:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

And,

Romans 8:5-6
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

And,

Galatians 5:19-23
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Clearly, Paul taught that a changed life, a Spirit-led life, was the inevitable - and obvious - consequence of genuine salvation. He is very plain in the above instances that those who live wicked lives as a matter of course would not inherit the kingdom of God.

As has been well-explained to you, this is not so. Paul and James were not in disagreement.

Is an apple tree an apple tree if it never bears apples? Yes, it is. But such a condition is unnatural; fruitlessness is indicative of something seriously wrong with the tree. Ordinarily, an apple tree bears apples. So, too, in the life of a genuinely born-gain believer. If there is no corresponding spiritual "fruit" in the life of a saved person, there is something seriously wrong spiritually.

As has been explained to you, they didn't.

I think the purpose of some is to argue instead of believe the truth here at CF. It is what makes money.

bugkiller

dqhall · Feb 28, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
I mean they both agreed with each other that a Christian SHOULD have good works but they did not agree on whether or not we are ultimately saved by a faith that works.

Remember Jesus taught:
Matthew 17:20 (WEB) “...For most certainly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

While Paul wrote about the importance of faith, he was against laziness:
2 Thessalonians 3:10 World English Bible (WEB)
10 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: “If anyone will not work, don’t let him eat.”

James was addressing a problem of people saying they were saved by faith without producing the fruits of righteousness.

Paul made tents and gained financial support from the community as he was teaching the Gospel. Paul did not claim his tent making would save him, but was counting on his faith. When he was not making tents, some may have said he was not working, or that he should get a job. Jesus needed him to spread the Gospel.

mark kennedy · Feb 28, 2018

dqhall said:
Remember Jesus taught:
Matthew 17:20 (WEB) “...For most certainly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

While Paul wrote about the importance of faith, he was against laziness:
2 Thessalonians 3:10 World English Bible (WEB)
10 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: “If anyone will not work, don’t let him eat.”

James was addressing a problem of people saying they were saved by faith without producing the fruits of righteousness.

Paul made tents and gained financial support from the community as he was teaching the Gospel. Paul did not claim his tent making would save him, but was counting on his faith. When he was not making tents, some may have said he was not working, or that he should get a job. Jesus needed him to spread the Gospel.

Yea and BTW, Priscilla and Aquila were tent makers to. Paul drops them off at Ephesus on his way to Jerusalem, when he got back they had founded a church. There was a Roman road that ran through Asia Minor from Ephesus to Ephesus. It was the New York of it's day, there were a lot a merchants that came to Ephesus, bought wholesale and sold retail around Asia Minor.

Well if your doing that your going to need a tent right? Ephesus founded at least 7 churches and at least two of them had ministries that spanned a thousand years. It might not have happened if they stopped working and just preached. I can't prove it but my guess here is many of their converts were at one point customers, who took the message with them wherever they went.

Grace and peace,
Mark

ToBeLoved · Feb 28, 2018

mark kennedy said:
I can't prove it but my guess here is many of their converts were at one point customers, who took the message with them wherever they went.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Thats really an interesting point of view about the customers possibly in Ephesus. I don't know like you, but it is another perspective I hadn't given any thought to before.

BryanJohnMaloney · Feb 28, 2018

Mountainmanbob said:
Works are not a requirement but, if the Born Again One lives long enough we will see good works in them.

Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone

If you put me in the mix it's bound to go wrong.

M-Bob

If there are no works, there never was any faith. That is what James said. What Paul said is NOT that you can have "faith" that is dead and be just fine. Even the demons believe and tremble. Are they saved?

BryanJohnMaloney · Feb 28, 2018

bugkiller said:
I do not believe James is saying prove you are a Christian. That would only mean we earned a badge like the boy scouts. James is talking about faith and not salvation. People who do not go to church or name the name of Jesus do good and even great works (deeds). So exactly what is the difference of those good deeds? What exactly do they prove? Not much IMHO.

bugkiller

It is not "proof", it is simple fact. Faith without works is dead. God is the God of the living, not of the dead. Thus, if you have "faith" but no "work", then you go to the god of the dead and are not for the God of the living. If there are no works, there was no actual faith in the first place.

Sam91 · Feb 28, 2018

BryanJohnMaloney said:
It is not "proof", it is simple fact. Faith without works is dead. God is the God of the living, not of the dead. Thus, if you have "faith" but no "work", then you go to the god of the dead and are not for the God of the living. If there are no works, there was no actual faith in the first place.

I think it is a warning to oneself. I like James. It is a good check to oneself that you really are acting in love still to others. That you are listening still and not getting complacent.

mark kennedy · Feb 28, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
Thats really an interesting point of view about the customers possibly in Ephesus. I don't know like you, but it is another perspective I hadn't given any thought to before.

It's based on a book by William Ramsey, the Seven Letter to the Churches. He describes the Roman road and cities in detail. What I started to think about is how the church at Ephesus kind of grew up spontaneously, without the help of Apostles at first. It was a thriving church and I think, the heart of the Gentile Church in the first century. Commercial centers are cultural centers, due primarily to their natural diversity. This perspective gave me what I think were important insights into how the gospel spreads. The Roman road to salvation takes on a whole other dimension when you start to look at it that way, at least for me.

AFrazier · Feb 28, 2018

mmbattlestar said:
Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

This is real simple. James and Paul are teaching the exact same thing. And so is John for that matter. It just doesn't look like it. We are saved by faith. But faith works by love. If you don't have the works of love, then your faith is a lie (John). Your faith is dead (James). You are nothing (Paul).

LoveofTruth · Feb 28, 2018

bugkiller said:
It is a work to believe. That work is not even ours, it was given to us by God. IOW it was not just our doing.

bugkiller

no if it is of belief or faith it is not of works

Romans 4 - 5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Notice the words “his faith”

Jesus asked some “where is YOuR faith ?”

Rita G. · Feb 28, 2018

Do you people have a problem reading?

The difference (between Paul and James) is the means of JUSTIFICATION . . read my lips . .
J U S T I F I C A T I O N . . . look for the word JUSTIFIED

Galatians 2:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

James 2:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Paul teaches JUSTIFICATION by faith ALONE

James teaches JUSTIFICATION by faith PLUS WORKS

get it yet?

2 different programs!

DIFFERENT = THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT ARE NOT THE SAME!

Get it yet?

tdidymas · Feb 28, 2018

Rita G. said:
Do you people have a problem reading?

The difference (between Paul and James) is the means of JUSTIFICATION . . read my lips . .
J U S T I F I C A T I O N . . . look for the word JUSTIFIED

Galatians 2:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

James 2:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Paul teaches JUSTIFICATION by faith ALONE

James teaches JUSTIFICATION by faith PLUS WORKS

get it yet?

2 different programs!

DIFFERENT = THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT ARE NOT THE SAME!

Get it yet?

We all get what you are saying and still believe it's wrong! You ought to read both Romans (completely) and James (completely) about 20 times each and search for the true meaning. You don't have it yet.

This link might help:
James Vs. Paul | Monergism
TD

justbyfaith · Mar 1, 2018

This is for @Rita G. and all others who believe in the equation faith + works = salvation.
I can do all kinds of works and none of them will enact an inward change in me, they are outward and superficial. But if I put my faith in Jesus Christ alone, it will enact an inward change that results in outward righteousness. I can have outward righteousness without inward change, but inward change will always produce outward righteousness if given the opportunity (i.e. it is not a deathbed conversion). Thus if there are no works faith is questionable. But if I give money to the poor, does that save me? No; it is outward and superficial, it doesn't produce an inward change. If I have an inward change, might that lead me to give to the poor? You betcha. Thus a living faith produces works but we are not saved by the works to any degree. We are saved through faith in Christ and what He did for us on the Cross, and this salvation IS the inward reality of being transformed.

DreamerOfTheHeart · Mar 1, 2018

James was simply saying when Christians know Jesus is the real deal, and God, but they do not do what Jesus said, have no deeds, they should take warning: like the demons, they know, but they have no faith.

It is really quite simple.

Many, many "Christians" in this very place. And have been all along.

Rita G. · Mar 1, 2018

DreamerOfTheHeart said:
James was simply saying when Christians know Jesus is the real deal, and God, but they do not do what Jesus said, have no deeds, they should take warning: like the demons, they know, but they have no faith.

OK "Dreamer",
Tell me what 'deeds' you do (have done or will do) that JUSTIFY you.

mark kennedy · Mar 1, 2018

Rita G. said:
OK "Dreamer",
Tell me what 'deeds' you do (have done or will do) that JUSTIFY you.

Why not ask James?

Discriminating among yourselves (James 2:4)
Dishonoring the poor (James 2:6)
The rich dragging the poor into court he calls blasphemy (James 2:7)
Because they had failed to keep the Royal Law (James 2:8)

Which is exactly what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 11 with regards to mistreating the poor. Paul also mentions these kind of lawsuits in 1 Corinthians 6.

Rita G. · Mar 1, 2018

mark kennedy said:
Why not ask James?

Discriminating among yourselves (James 2:4)
Dishonoring the poor (James 2:6)
The rich dragging the poor into court he calls blasphemy (James 2:7)
Because they had failed to keep the Royal Law (James 2:8)
Which is exactly what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 11 with regards to mistreating the poor. Paul also mentions these kind of lawsuits in 1 Corinthians 6.

Dude, you keep hijacking this to ‘the poor’. The OP is about justification . .
Tell us what are YOU are doing for the poor? Are you doing what Jesus said to do? Mat 19:21, Mk 10:21 Tell us about it.

The OP is questioning about the DIFFERENCES not the similarities.

ToBeLoved · Mar 1, 2018

mark kennedy said:
It's based on a book by William Ramsey, the Seven Letter to the Churches. He describes the Roman road and cities in detail. What I started to think about is how the church at Ephesus kind of grew up spontaneously, without the help of Apostles at first. It was a thriving church and I think, the heart of the Gentile Church in the first century. Commercial centers are cultural centers, due primarily to their natural diversity. This perspective gave me what I think were important insights into how the gospel spreads. The Roman road to salvation takes on a whole other dimension when you start to look at it that way, at least for me.

Interesting. I'll check out the book on Amazon

Sam91 · Mar 1, 2018

Rita G. said:
Dude, you keep hijacking this to ‘the poor’. The OP is about justification . .
Tell us what are YOU are doing for the poor? Are you doing what Jesus said to do? Mat 19:21, Mk 10:21 Tell us about it.

The OP is questioning about the DIFFERENCES not the similarities.

You know, if you read the parables in the Gospel they back up this James verse. Jesus expected us to work after we believed. James is saying believing isn't enough.

We can not earn salvation through works. That is a gift but we are not meant to bury it in a field and not accrue interest, produce no fruit.

It says in 2timothy we are not to quarrel over such matters as words. When your main point isn't changing and no one is budging it is wise to not let it upset us.

EDIT: How can one not? How can we not desire to tell people about God. How can we not feel compassion to those around us when we know what God has done for us and how He is is there for us in every circumstance?

I think the problem is that two verses are being isolated without taking the rest of what Paul and James says in context and trying to say they are mutually exclusive.

I could tell you that it snows in winter in the UK. Which is true. But is that the full picture. No, it snows a few days in winter. However, if you chose to focus on the first point only you would be sorely mistaken when you came over, ski's packed.

mark kennedy · Mar 1, 2018

ToBeLoved said:
Interesting. I'll check out the book on Amazon

You can find it online, it's an old book but he was an archaeologist, it's not the kind of information that expires. You'll probably have to get it in PDF format but it's a pretty comprehensive discussion.

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