My stance on abortion

Before I became a Christian I was pro-choice and if I'd had a girlfriend who got pregnant I would probably have wanted them to have an abortion as I wasnt ready for kids. After I became a Christian God changed my heart on that. He showed me through his word and by the Holy Spirit putting it in my heart that life begins at conception. There is no movement on that.

Once you believe with all your being that life begins at conception abortion is murder. There is no two ways about it. It is an absolute truth. There is a moral issue when a mother and babies life are at risk due to a complication. Do you murder the baby to save the mother? Do you murder the baby to when it is expected to die anyway? Do you murder the baby to save it from suffering health issues? The first two I have known Christians go through and had abortions. I sympathised with them and offered them any support they wanted, although I wasnt the closest to them. The last one I couldnt agree wth but fortunately havent known anyone that i am aware of who has done that.

Ive even told friends when I was a bit younger that their planned abortion is taking a life and in some cases actually said its murder.

I do not see this as being a moral issue, this is something God has clearly shown me to be true and only God can persuade me otherwise. Supporting abortion or supporting someones right to abortion is supporting murder of unborn children.

My wife had two miscarriages. I dare you to tell anyone who has had a miscarriage that they have not lost a living baby. Go and tell them they have only lost a bunch of undeveloped cells that aren't a human life. Not many people would be prepared to do that as they know its not true. How can it be true for abortions and not for miscarriages?

That is the usual argument for abortion though and the liberal left are now trying to make abortion legal up to birth. There has already been some talk of extending it to after birth to allow any children with life changing conditions to be exterminated. Will Christians still support abortion then?

Radagast said:

Abortion, meaning the deliberate killing of the foetus, is never necessary to save the life of the mother.

Sometimes the life of the mother requires the foetus to be removed. Done before 20 weeks, this leads to the death of the foetus as a tragic, inevitable result. Done after 25 weeks, the baby can generally survive.

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Thats very much trying to distort a harsh truth. I have known a mother who had an eptopic pregnancy where the removal of the foetus, which could not survive outside the womb was required. The mother would not have survived if the foetus had not been aborted and the baby would have died as well. The choice as she and her husband put it was kill the baby or they both die. You dont know how heartbreaking that is until you are faced with it. They told me of their plight during a discussion on abortion.

GirdYourLoins said:

Before I became a Christian I was pro-choice and if I'd had a girlfriend who got pregnant I would probably have wanted them to have an abortion as I wasnt ready for kids. After I became a Christian God changed my heart on that. He showed me through his word and by the Holy Spirit putting it in my heart that life begins at conception. There is no movement on that.

Once you believe with all your being that life begins at conception abortion is murder. There is no two ways about it. It is an absolute truth. There is a moral issue when a mother and babies life are at risk due to a complication. Do you murder the baby to save the mother? Do you murder the baby to when it is expected to die anyway? Do you murder the baby to save it from suffering health issues? The first two I have known Christians go through and had abortions. I sympathised with them and offered them any support they wanted, although I wasnt the closest to them. The last one I couldnt agree wth but fortunately havent known anyone that i am aware of who has done that.

Ive even told friends when I was a bit younger that their planned abortion is taking a life and in some cases actually said its murder.

I do not see this as being a moral issue, this is something God has clearly shown me to be true and only God can persuade me otherwise. Supporting abortion or supporting someones right to abortion is supporting murder of unborn children.

My wife had two miscarriages. I dare you to tell anyone who has had a miscarriage that they have not lost a living baby. Go and tell them they have only lost a bunch of undeveloped cells that aren't a human life. Not many people would be prepared to do that as they know its not true. How can it be true for abortions and not for miscarriages?

That is the usual argument for abortion though and the liberal left are now trying to make abortion legal up to birth. There has already been some talk of extending it to after birth to allow any children with life changing conditions to be exterminated. Will Christians still support abortion then?

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A woman was pregnant with a child having its internal organs outside the body. She and her husband decided to have an abortion. They already had numerous children. She did not seem to regret her decision.

Some time after hearing the story I read that most of these types of children can survive, but required expensive surgery. Who decides who gets life saving medical treatment and who does not? Some people did not want to subsidize affordable health care by paying more taxes. There are medical staff shortages. Some new immunotherapy cancer treatments cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Is cutting funding for affordable health care murder? People will die if support is removed.

Paul preached against fornication as sexual immorality led to children being born without adequate parental support. The father did not stay around to raise the child, or the mother cheated and left to start another failed marriage.

Oscarr said:

The Scripture says that murderers will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Therefore there are some tragic and rude shocks awaiting some Pro-Choice professing Christians when they arrive at the Judgement.

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Do you know that only about 30% of of all fertilized eggs get born naturally? That means if an egg is a baby, then 70% of all babies die even without being born, naturally.

zoidar said:

Do you know that only about 30% of of all fertilized eggs get born naturally? That means if an egg is a baby, then 70% of all babies die even without being born, naturally.

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Which is really sad and shows the affects of sin entering the world.

GirdYourLoins said:

Thats very much trying to distort a harsh truth. I have known a mother who had an eptopic pregnancy where the removal of the foetus, which could not survive outside the womb was required.

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Ectopic pregnancy is one example where the life of the mother requires the foetus to be removed early, and the death of the foetus is a tragic, inevitable result.

But this is not the same as the deliberate killing of the foetus. The mother you describe would have saved the baby if she could.

In abortion, on the other hand, the deliberate killing of the foetus is the only goal.

Searching_for_God said:

When I was young, I was pro-life. I couldn't understand why anyone would want to just kill their baby for any reason. Then I became pro choice when I heard what the other side had to say. Things stayed this way for a long time until I started looking into Catholicism. When I started looking at the Catholic way of looking at things, everything started to make sense, and now I think I'm pro life again... even if someone is conceived under awful circumstances, that doesn't give anyone the right to terminate their lives. I know this is a hot button issue but it's something that feels very important to me right now and I feel like I need to tell the world about why abortion is wrong. I feel like I need to do something activist-like. I haven't felt this fired up by a social issue in awhile and it's great!

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There is only one question a person must answer on this: "When is it okay to murder a child?"

SolomonVII said:

I think a beter translaton of metanoia is not "with" or "like" minded, but "beyond". minded. Repentance is a change of consciousness to see the world from a perspective beyond ordinary human consciousness. It is a spiritual conversion of one's point of view, from an earthly point of view to a heavenly point of view even.
Metanoia, literally translated, is a very positive, uplifting word. The good news of the Gospel focuses us on the hope and the joy that comes from having ones consciousness transformed into the kind of consciounsenss designed for the Kingdom of Heaven. However, implicit in the transformation of consciousness that brings us to the 'there' of the kingdom of heaven is the starting point of the 'here' which is the life and consciousness of the sinner. Blindness to even the fact that one is a sinner is the consciousness of someone who does not even recognize that he is a sinner, such as David, such as the multitudes of moderns engage in the monstrosity that is abortion. To have ones eyes opened is to therefore to first become self-aware of the darkness that rules our world and rules our life. Regret, remorse and sorrow therefore become the starting point to a metanoia, and that leads to 'repentance' being the preferred translation in many bibles over 'metanoia'. A transformation of conscious and a the spiritual transformation of mind that metanoia translates as includes the Biblical ashes and sackcloth and a recognition of the horrific depths of our sinfulness.

Many of us modern, and probably this is doubly true for women, could never even conceive of themselves as taking a lady bug and squishing it between their index finger and their thumb. And yet, with acceptance of abortion, this is exactly what they are doing with a human life. To have ones consciousness transformed to a heavenly consciousness is to see this reality as it is, and this will be a truly horrifying experience to experiences ourselves as the monsters that we really are.

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"Beyond" would be epinoia. Truly metanoia means like/with-mind.

God is not religious.

I think you need to 'repent' from your repentance and repent

"Repentance" has no bases in the God-breathed Scripture. It is a man invented theology based on a mistranslation of the word metanoia.

Also, metanoia does not mean "change-mind" as some say. That is the result of assigning the Latin prefix trans instead of the God-breathed meta(a Greek primary preposition which means: amid/among/with(loose association).

Now the slaves and the officers were standing there, having made a charcoal fire, for it was cold and they were warming themselves; and Peter was also with(meta: amid, among) them, standing and warming himself. John 18:18 NASB

MoneyGuy said:

That argument is often used. It holds up unless you believe as I do that aborting a developed fetus is murder. If the woman's life was endangered or in the case of rape then those are other discussions.

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Well, I don't think it's murder. If you can devise a reason where it is not murder, as you did, then it is NEVER murder! Stupid, yes.

You are not the 'Abortion Police' to tell everyone when it's murder and when it's not. Can we really legislate morality on your terms?

I am reminded that God formed Adam as a viable human life and THEN breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.

Adam said, "What are you doing with my nose?!" God said, "I have formed you and given you life!'

Adam then said, "NO YOU DID NOT!' "I am evolved!" To which God replied, "K'den, tell me about yesterday?"

It's all there in the bible

Rodan6 said:

A serial murderer/rapist escapes from prison, rapes your 12 year old daughter and leaves her for dead. But she survives. This degenerate rapist has an I.Q. of 75-80. How does God look at this? Is it His will that such degenerate genes be promoted for society?

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I don't think that God is a eugenicist.
But if he was, he may be troubled that the brightest and the most talented among us are the ones who have stopped having children.

And as Europe is breeding itself into a demographic winter, the average IQ of people coming into Europe from sub-Sahara Africa is on the low side of 75-80.
Modern western man has chosen comfort. What the lesson of the cross tells us is to choose life instead, even if life involves infinite suffering and sacrifice.
Stupid rapists will only outbreed smart people if and when smart people find raising the next generation of their own kin to be too much of an inconvenience. Diapers stink. Teenagers are obnoxious. College is expensive.
No, I don't think that God really believes much in the eugenics argument, but if you do, and your IQ is greater than 85, then choose life for yourself. The genetic output of smart people will have greater chances of reproductive success than the genetic output of stupid people ever could, let alone the breeding success of stupid rapists. Intelligence traditionally is an evolutionary strength in humans.

The problem is that smart people have become too 'smart' to breed. Frankly, when comfort becomes the ultimate value, having children is not a smart choice.

It takes wisdom of God, over the wisdom of man, to understand why the cross is the better choice. All forms of nihilism lead to hellish existences that we do not even want to contemplate.

The primary reason there are soooo many abortions is for the convenience of the woman (most often a young single unwed mother) who doesn't want the responsibility. Also the guy that usually convinces her to have an abortion so he doesn't have to pay child support. Medical doctors thought birth control pills would solve the problem with sex education in our public schools. Guess what the doctors and educators were wrong.

Way back in 1976, my wife and i had to wait 3 years before a healthy baby boy was available for adoption. Even at that time there were thousands of young single woman getting abortions in Madison, Wisconsin every year. On a side note what surprised me is that Israel is now even more liberal than America when it comes to abortions. Per capita there are now as many abortions in Israel as in America.

When on our Senior class trip to Washington DC and New York City in 1966, a few of us guys struck up a conversation with a few Senior girls from Mississippi that were also on their Senior class trip. They showed us their Yearbook and i asked why there were so few girls in their graduating class picture. The reason was because the girls that got pregnant during High School dropped out of school and got married.

SPF said:

Which is really sad and shows the affects of sin entering the world.

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It leads us to the strange thing that at least 70% of all people in heaven will be unborn babies, if we don't believe they go to hell...

Searching_for_God said:

When I was young, I was pro-life. I couldn't understand why anyone would want to just kill their baby for any reason. Then I became pro choice when I heard what the other side had to say. Things stayed this way for a long time until I started looking into Catholicism. When I started looking at the Catholic way of looking at things, everything started to make sense, and now I think I'm pro life again... even if someone is conceived under awful circumstances, that doesn't give anyone the right to terminate their lives. I know this is a hot button issue but it's something that feels very important to me right now and I feel like I need to tell the world about why abortion is wrong. I feel like I need to do something activist-like. I haven't felt this fired up by a social issue in awhile and it's great!

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It's nice to see that you have came back into alignment with the Eord of God.
M-Bob

Searching_for_God said:

When I was young, I was pro-life. I couldn't understand why anyone would want to just kill their baby for any reason. Then I became pro choice when I heard what the other side had to say. Things stayed this way for a long time until I started looking into Catholicism. When I started looking at the Catholic way of looking at things, everything started to make sense, and now I think I'm pro life again... even if someone is conceived under awful circumstances, that doesn't give anyone the right to terminate their lives. I know this is a hot button issue but it's something that feels very important to me right now and I feel like I need to tell the world about why abortion is wrong. I feel like I need to do something activist-like. I haven't felt this fired up by a social issue in awhile and it's great!

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If Mary was pro-choice like you in her situation when she had Child without knowing Joseph we would be in deep trouble don't you think ?

Searching_for_God said:

When I was young, I was pro-life. I couldn't understand why anyone would want to just kill their baby for any reason. Then I became pro choice when I heard what the other side had to say. Things stayed this way for a long time until I started looking into Catholicism. When I started looking at the Catholic way of looking at things, everything started to make sense, and now I think I'm pro life again... even if someone is conceived under awful circumstances, that doesn't give anyone the right to terminate their lives. I know this is a hot button issue but it's something that feels very important to me right now and I feel like I need to tell the world about why abortion is wrong. I feel like I need to do something activist-like. I haven't felt this fired up by a social issue in awhile and it's great!

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FWIW, I think that abortion is wrong.
But I also believe that neither I, or anyone else, has the right to pressure a woman into keeping her child if she can't/doesn't want to. Point out that there are alternatives, by all means; but she may have made her decision for her own reasons.
People who show violence towards doctors and/or abortion clinics are just as bad, in my view.

zoidar said:

It leads us to the strange thing that at least 70% of all people in heaven will be unborn babies, if we don't believe they go to hell...

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We would have to consider if souls are given to eggs and/or fetus' or when they enter in when they receive the breathe of life....

RaymondG said:

We would have to consider if souls are given to eggs and/or fetus' or when they enter in when they receive the breathe of life....

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It would also depend on how you interpret "breathe of life" and when you think a child that goes through a development process absolutely nothing like Adam's would receive the "breathe of life".

If you believe that it's actually after birth, then there would be no problem at all supporting heinous acts like partial birth abortion, or even quickly killing a baby after it's born but before it's drawn breath.

SPF said:

It would also depend on how you interpret "breathe of life" and when you think a child that goes through a development process absolutely nothing like Adam's would receive the "breathe of life".

If you believe that it's actually after birth, then there would be no problem at all supporting heinous acts like partial birth abortion, or even quickly killing a baby after it's born but before it's drawn breath.

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You give yourself too much power. When God says live, you will live...and when God says die, you will die. No human laws or reasoning or decisions will change that. God is not producing souls that cannot have homes/bodies, because of the decisions of man. It just isnt happening.

I have not problem with what you believe. And i will respect it as long as you dont make any exceptions. If this is murder in your eyes....the same as the murder of a breathing child.....then they should not be aborted at any point after conception for any reason....not even the health of the mother...whether the mother be you, your wife, your sister, or a single mother of 3 young children. You cant murder the innocent, just to save the life of someone dying of natural causes.

RaymondG said:

You give yourself too much power. When God says live, you will live...and when God says die, you will die. No human laws or reasoning or decisions will change that. God is not producing souls that cannot have homes/bodies, because of the decisions of man. It just isnt happening.

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Can you please explain how this statement has any relevance at all to what I said, because I'm not seeing it.

RaymondG said:

.then they should not be aborted at any point after conception for any reason....not even the health of the mother...whether the mother be you, your wife, your sister, or a single mother of 3 young children. You cant murder the innocent, just to save the life of someone dying of natural causes.

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Again, 98% of abortions in America are done for convenience reasons. But if you want to address specifically how we apply the principal that all human beings are created from conception with intrinsic moral worth and value, then that's easy. I've done it a number of times.

When a woman becomes pregnant, I think the right mindset for doctors would be to look at both the mother and the unborn child as their patient. The goal of any doctor involved is to make sure that both patients make it through pregnancy. But what happens when you have an ectopic pregnancy where the doctor is certain that the unborn child will not survive through the pregnancy, and that if attempted, it will most certainly result in the death of the mother. This is a tragic event that does happen. In this case, you have both lives at risk, if nothing is done, then two patients die. Clearly, the doctor has to act to save someone. In this case, because the unborn child has not reached viability, his only option is to save the mother. There's nothing immoral or wrong with this.

If there was an incident during pregnancy where a life threatening event occurred and the unborn child had reached viability, then the doctor should treat both the mother and unborn child the same and attempt to save both lives.

All we can do is make the best decisions we can with the limited knowledge we have. I think Scripture is clear that mankind is created unique among all of God's creation. We alone are created in the image of God, we alone possess inherent and intrinsic moral worth and value. Apart from Adam, who was created as an adult (did he have a belly button?), our existence begins at conception. This is when a new, and unique human life comes into existence. I don't see any theological reason to believe that the human growing inside the womb is of any less moral worth than the human growing outside the womb.

Just look at Luke 1, John the Baptist leaps in his mother's womb!

RaymondG said:

We would have to consider if souls are given to eggs and/or fetus' or when they enter in when they receive the breathe of life....

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You didn't mean that a child gets the soul after it's born did you?

I think it's complicated. It's hard to know when the soul enters the body. We don't even fully know what a soul is and so on. Maybe the soul is being shaped during the pregnancy, it may not be at a specific moment the soul enters ...