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DeaconDean

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Has anyone heard of the Pauline Priority?

This apparently, is a hallmark of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism

Everything in the New Testament, comes after Paul's epistles.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Radagast

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Has anyone heard of the Pauline Priority?

This apparently, is a hallmark of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism

Everything in the New Testament, comes after Paul's epistles.

I've never heard of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, but Pauline Priority is a very widely held belief (although personally, I'd put Mark before at least some of the Epistles).
 
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Tree of Life

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Has anyone heard of the Pauline Priority?

This apparently, is a hallmark of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism

Everything in the New Testament, comes after Paul's epistles.

God Bless

Till all are one.

If we're talking about when NT documents were written, then Paul's were written very early on. They would compete with the synoptics for earliest writings. But I think that James might beat them all as the earliest NT document.
 
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DeaconDean

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I've never heard of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, but Pauline Priority is a very widely held belief (although personally, I'd put Mark before at least some of the Epistles).

There is a useful website Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers that will give a look at when it is suggested date of the writings of the New Testament.

It places the Gospel of Mark between AD 65-80. Which would put it after at least 8 of Paul's Epistles. (Maybe 9 if you include Hebrews with Paul as its author).

Either way, what Mid-Acts Dispensationalism teaches there is just no way I (and I am a partial Dispensationalist) can accept it.

For example:

The Disciples were ignorant of:

Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection

  • 1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.
  • 2. Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.
  • 3. Mark 9:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples “understood not and were afraid to ask him”
  • 4. Luke 9:44-45 – “But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.”
  • 5. Luke 18:31-34 – “And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”
  • 6. John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.
    Disbelief in the Resurrection
  • 7. Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.
  • 8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
  • 9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
  • 10. John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.
  • 11. John 20:7-9 – The disciples after seeing the empty tomb believed Mary that someone had stolen Jesus. They did not know about the resurrection yet.
    Did not understand the cross for salvation
  • 12. John 20:21-23 – Even after the resurrection, the disciples did not understand what it accomplished. Here they are given the authority to remit sins.
  • 13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost. The resurrection as a warning that he would return to seek vengeance.
  • 14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
  • 15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
  • 16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews. Could it be that Peter does not yet understand the mystery of the cross?"

Source

Now my very good friend and brother twin1954, knows that I am a Dispensationalist (to a certain degree).

So for me to say that even I disagree with what is put out here, should shock him.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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If we're talking about when NT documents were written, then Paul's were written very early on. They would compete with the synoptics for earliest writings. But I think that James might beat them all as the earliest NT document.

One of my arguments against is the widely held beliefs by "Hyperdispensationalists" (Mid-Acts Dispensationalists) is that nobody preached the cross, until Paul.

What was it that was said to me?

"The preaching of the cross was offered for salvation first through the Apostle Paul as the Lord revealed the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection. The Twelve apostles were ignorant of this message."

But yet, while Peter did not specifically use the word "cross" in Acts 2 we see the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Which is funny, in that about 40 plus days after the resurrection, and ascension, this event takes place.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Tree of Life

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One of my arguments against is the widely held beliefs by "Hyperdispensationalists" (Mid-Acts Dispensationalists) is that nobody preached the cross, until Paul.

What was it that was said to me?

"The preaching of the cross was offered for salvation first through the Apostle Paul as the Lord revealed the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection. The Twelve apostles were ignorant of this message."

But yet, while Peter did not specifically use the word "cross" in Acts 2 we see the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Which is funny, in that about 40 plus days after the resurrection, and ascension, this event takes place.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Jesus preached the cross (Matthew 16:24-26).
 
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DeaconDean

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Jesus preached the cross (Matthew 16:24-26).

Yes, I agree. He preached it quite a few times.

But:

"Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection

  • 1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it."
God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Tree of Life

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Yes, I agree. He preached it quite a few times.

But:

"Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection

  • 1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it."
God Bless

Till all are one.

The apostles did not understand Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection until after it happened. But he shortly got them up to speed (Luke 24:46-49).
 
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DeaconDean

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The apostles did not understand Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection until after it happened. But he shortly got them up to speed (Luke 24:46-49).

Mind you I'm not arguing, just pointing out that the MAD's have that one accounted for too. (see above)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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I actually don't see this one accounted for up there.

"
  • 8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
  • 9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
"

And here again, these Gospel accounts were secondary to Paul's. Since they came after Paul's death.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Tree of Life

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"
  • 8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
  • 9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
"

And here again, these Gospel accounts were secondary to Paul's. Since they came after Paul's death.

God Bless

Till all are one.
I'm talking about Luke 24:46-49. Luke did not write after Paul's death. He wrote while Paul was live. And the events recorded happened well before Paul's conversion.
 
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DeaconDean

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I'm talking about Luke 24:46-49. Luke did not write after Paul's death. He wrote while Paul was live. And the events recorded happened well before Paul's conversion.

Not really.

Paul died around the time of Nero.

If Paul wrote the book of Hebrews, the content therein, show that the Temple was still standing at the writing of Hebrews.

The Gospel of Luke, apparently was written between AD 80-130. With at least one author suggesting as early as AD 62. (see here)

Same with the Book of Acts. (see here)

80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles

Like I said, I'm not arguing, just pointing things out.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Tree of Life

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Not really.

Paul died around the time of Nero.

Around 68ad.

If Paul wrote the book of Hebrews, the content therein, show that the Temple was still standing at the writing of Hebrews.

Paul did not write Hebrews.

The Gospel of Luke, apparently was written between AD 80-130. With at least one author suggesting as early as AD 62. (see here)

Same with the Book of Acts. (see here)

80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles

Since Luke-Acts is really of one piece and Acts was obviously written after Luke's gospel, it would be strange to put the dates so late. Acts ends with Paul in prison in Rome. Paul was later released from Prison and did a third missionary journey before a final imprisonment and execution (this third journey, final imprisonment, and execution are not mentioned in Acts). If Acts was written after all of these things, why wouldn't Luke have recorded them?
 
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DeaconDean

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Around 68ad.

Debatable, but not worth it.



Paul did not write Hebrews.

And that may be right, but given the depth that the writer goes into defending Christianity against Judaism, who else of the Apostles knew Judaism better than a Pharisee?

Since Luke-Acts is really of one piece and Acts was obviously written after Luke's gospel, it would be strange to put the dates so late. Acts ends with Paul in prison in Rome. Paul was later released from Prison and did a third missionary journey before a final imprisonment and execution (this third journey, final imprisonment, and execution are not mentioned in Acts). If Acts was written after all of these things, why wouldn't Luke have recorded them?

"The cleavage between the theology of Luke and Paul is simply a consequence of the student going off in his own direction, a venerable tradition. The disagreements noted between the narrative of Acts and the letters (mainly Galatians) may frequently be reconciled, but in any case are explained if the author of Luke-Acts didn't own any copies of Paul's letters to which he could refer. It is, after all, improbable that Paul would dispatch a letter both to a church and then to all his sometime companions. The ignorance of the letters of Paul on the part of the author of Luke-Acts actually speaks for a date before ca. 100, after which these letters were collected, published, and canonized.

So we come upon the third question of higher criticism, the date of Luke-Acts. It is sometimes put forward that the Gospel of Luke may be as early as 62 CE because Acts does not narrate the martyrdom of Paul.

F. F. Bruce writes on the occasion of Luke's writing (The Book of Acts, pp. 10-12):

It is necessary, then, to look for an appropriate life-setting for a work which strikes the apologetic note in just this way. One attractive suggestion points to the period A.D. 66 or shortly afterward,..The argument that there is nothing in Acts--or even in Luke--that presupposes the Jewish revolt and the resultant destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem (A. D. 70) has been used in defense of a pre-70 dating for the twofold work--early in the twentieth century by Adolf Harnack and over sixty years later by J. A. T. Robinson. Indeed, it has been further argued, since there is no allusion to two earlier events--the Neronian persecution and the execution of Paul--that the composition of Luke-Acts should probably be dated not later than A.D. 65. So far as the Neronian persecution is concerned, even Tacitus (no friend to Christians) admits that it was the action of one man's malignity rather than an expression of public policy, and the official reprobation of Nero's memory and actions at his death could have been held to cover his persecution of the Christians of Rome. So Luke's recording of favorable judgments which had been passed on Christianity by other Roman authorities might have been intended to suggest that Nero's anti-Christian activity was an irresponsible and criminal attack by that now excrated ruler on a movement whose innocence had been amply attested by many worthier representatives of Roman power.

It is difficult to fix the date of composition of Acts more precisely than at some point within the Flavian period (A.D. 69-96), possibly about the middle of the period. The arguments by which Sir William Ramsay, late in the nineteenth century, concluded that it was composed about A.D. 80 are precarious, but nothing that has been discovered since then has pointed to a more probable dating."

Another detail is worth noting. In Acts 25:13, Luke writes, "When a few days had passed, King Agrippa and Bernice arrived in Caesarea on a visit to Festus." Luke assumes a knowledge of who this Bernice was in his Greco-Roman readers. This would be most easily assumed after she had been made famous by her affair with the emperor Titus in c. 69 CE. Juvenal mentions her in his Satires in the book on "The Ways of Women," while Suetonius comments on "his notorious passion for queen Berenice, to whom it was even said that he promised marriage" (Titus 7.1). This lends further probability to a post-70 date of Acts."

Stevan Davies writes (Jesus the Healer, p. 174): "Luke wrote at least sixty years after Pentecost and perhaps closer to a century after that event. Scholarship on the subject presently vacillates between a late first century and an early to mid-second century date for Luke's writings." I would throw my lot in with those who favor a late first century date. If the Acts of the Apostles were written in the mid second century, it is hard to understand why there would be no mention or even cognizance of the epistles of Paul, which were being quoted as authoritative by writers before that time, especially since Acts has thousands of words devoted to recording things about the life of Paul, unlike Justin Martyr (whose apologies don't quote Paul). The idea that Acts didn't mention the letters of Paul because they were in Marcionite use (as is plausible for Justin) founders on the unity of the Luke-Acts composition. And, of course, if the author of Acts was a companion of Paul, it is improbable to place it very long after the turn of the century, even if St. Luke lived to the ripe old age of eighty-four in Boeotia as the Anti-Marcionite Prologue avers. I have not done enough research to come to a conclusion on whether Luke used Josephus' Antiquities, which would demand a date after 93 CE. Marcion had a form of the Gospel of Luke from which he derived his Gospel of the Lord, which sets an upper bound of around 130 CE. A date for Luke-Acts in the 90s of the first century or first decade of the second would account for all the evidence, including the alleged use of Josephus and the apparent authorship by a sometime companion of Paul. If Luke did not use the Antiquities of Josephus, a date in the 80s is permissible."

Source

So here again, we're at a crossroads, Luke-Acts, could have been written as early as AD 62, but maybe as late as AD 130.

And either way, the Gospel of Luke as well as Acts would "post-date" the early writings of Paul.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Please don't misunderstand me.

I agree with "Covenant Theology" in basically there being "Two Covenants"; a Covenant of Works that ended at Calvary, and a Covenant of Grace that began at Calvary.

And, by the same token, I agree with "old time" Dispensationalism in that how God dealt with man, is marked by the different covenants from Adam to Christ.

I'm actually against this Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. I am not a "hard-core" dispensationalist. :D

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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redleghunter

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Has anyone heard of the Pauline Priority?

This apparently, is a hallmark of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism

Everything in the New Testament, comes after Paul's epistles.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Had run ins with mid Acts, Acts 15, Acts 10 and Acts 28 hyper Dispensationalists in the past.

Best resource I've seen is from a Traditional Dispensationalist refuting this error is by HA Ironside:

https://www.wholesomewords.org/etexts/ironside/wrongly.pdf

Enjoy!
 
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Radagast

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Since Luke-Acts is really of one piece and Acts was obviously written after Luke's gospel, it would be strange to put the dates so late. Acts ends with Paul in prison in Rome. Paul was later released from Prison and did a third missionary journey before a final imprisonment and execution (this third journey, final imprisonment, and execution are not mentioned in Acts). If Acts was written after all of these things, why wouldn't Luke have recorded them?

It seems to me obvious that Luke-Acts was written at the point that the story stops. That would still be after most of the Pauline Epistles. Since Luke uses Mark and Q, that would probably put Mark and Q before the Pauline Epistles, though.

I don't think any serious scholar dates Luke-Acts after 90.
 
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DeaconDean

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