For all that fear hell

sdowney717 · Feb 24, 2018

mkgal1 said:
What do you two believe about Revelation 21:4.....where it's written the "former things have passed away"?

And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more nor mourning nor crying nor pain; they will be no more, because the former things have passed away."

What do you think will be necessary for that to come to fruition? Do you think that's just going to be an instant thing, where God's presence just immediately causes us to be perfected into His holiness and we'll then only exhibit righteous behavior towards others?

You don't believe there's any "dross" that needs to be "burned off" from your selves (because....I will certainly admit that I need some refining fire).

Wrath of God is on unbelievers, they will not see life, they will experience death and destruction.

God says at the end, for those who have life, He creates all things new. So yes the former things have DIED, passed away. All tears wiped away is only for those who have life. To me the sharp painful memories of the past will be dulled to the point they wont be remembered compared to the joy of being with God in heaven.

Revelation 21 New King James Version (NKJV)
All Things Made New
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

mkgal1 · Feb 24, 2018

rjs330 said:
Those verses can be dealt with in another topic. It's off topic here.

That's where the cherry-picking and using only certain verses to prove a point comes in from your side. Those verses are the context in which Jesus' words were spoken (the ones that are [mis]used to support your beliefs).

You're right.....they *are* off topic here.....because the topic of this thread was never what Jesus was speaking of.

rjs330 said:
Well once again you have proved my point. You use scriptures that seem to support your point of you while ignoring the rest of the context.
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so must the Human One be lifted upso that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life.Whoever believes in him isn’t judged; whoever doesn’t believe in him is already judged, because they don’t believe in the name of God’s only Son. - John 3:14-16,18

Over and over again you seem to miss how you are doing what you're accusing me of (using Scriptures that seem to support your point while ignoring the rest of the context).

I have no issue with this passage (I just don't believe we interpret it in the same way). Verse 17--which you ignored....completely left out-- clearly states God's intention in sending Jesus was to save the world, not just a few individuals out of the world. The judgement mentioned there is self-inflicted (I believe)....but nothing there states it's eternal darkness (or eternal torment). Think of how Jesus interacted with people like the woman caught in adultery. What were His words to her? Jesus is our exact representation of God's being (Hebrews 1:3).

rjs330 said:
Please adjust your beliefs to what the scripture says.

mkgal1 · Feb 24, 2018

sdowney717 said:
All tears wiped away is only for those who have life. To me the sharp painful memories of the past will be dulled to the point they wont be remembered compared to the joy of being with God in heaven.

I think you're misunderstanding my question.

We aren't perfect now....correct? Even as Christians, we still inflict pain on others (there's still pain....still tears....still sorrow) even within Christian communities. There is still gossip; slander; lying; busy bodies....etc....even among Christians. So......how do you suppose He will "make all things new"? As far as I can understand.....I believe there will still need to be refining of our persons in order for that to be a future reality.

I believe what the OP (Kris) wrote here:

Kris Pablos said:
There will be no more wicked desires when we go into the next stage if we are with God, Jesus Christ. So they [wicked desires] will be eternally in fire, burning and suffering, not being able to harm us.

....not people....but sin....all characteristics that threaten the peace and well-being of His kingdom.

mkgal1 · Feb 25, 2018

sdowney717 said:
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

sdowney717 said:
Wrath of God is on unbelievers

I was just reading something I found was interesting on "God's wrath" this morning.

From this article: The Flood According to Isaiah 54:7-9

In Isaiah 54:16, God explains why the flood came upon the earth. Using the imagery of “the blacksmith who blows the coals in the fire” God says, “I have created the spoiler to destroy” (Isaiah 54:16).

The Hebrew word translated as “spoiler” is the Hiphil participle from shachat. It could also be translated as “the destroyer” (cf. NAS, NIV, NET). More interestingly still, the Hiphil participle of shachat is also used in Genesis 6:13 and 17 in reference to the destruction that came upon the earth. By using such imagery, God explains why the flood came upon the earth: it came because the destroyer destroys. This is the fourth principle of the Chaos Theory.

But what does it mean when the text say that God created the destroyer to destroy? Is not the destroyer opposed to all that is good and Godly? Yes! God is not a destroyer, but a Creator. Nor does God “send” the destroyer to destroy. The destroyer destroys because he is a destroyer. And since everything that exists has it origin in God, it can be said that God created the destroyer. This idea is troubling to some, but note carefully how God explains this.

How the Destroyer Came to Be
Before God mentions that He created the destroyer, God says that He created the blacksmith (Isaiah 54:16a). The blacksmith blows on the coals and brings forth the instruments for his work. Though God created the blacksmith, it is the blacksmith who does his work and brings forth the tools and instruments from his forge.

When God creates, He only creates good things for good purposes. There is no evil intent in the heart of God. The destroyer was not created to be evil, or to do bad things. In fact, it might be best to realize that the destroyer was never created at all as “the destroyer.” Just as God did not create humanity sinful, but we became sinful through our rebellion, so also the destroyer became destructive, also as a result of rebellion.

Death, decay, and destruction are the natural consequence of disobeying God and going against His will. The only way that God can be said to have created the destroyer is by saying that He created a being with genuine free will, and in so doing, restricted Himself from intervening when that free being chose to depart from God’s perfect will.

God did not make or create death and destruction, but did allow for their possibility when He created life and gave freedom to His creation.

It is the same with human beings. When God created humanity with the freedom to go against His will, this freedom necessitated the possibility that history would go bad if we went against His will, which is exactly what happened in Genesis 3, and the negative consequences of this decision are felt in Genesis 4 when Cain murders his brother, in Genesis 5, where the phrase “and he died” is repeated over and over and over, and then in Genesis 6 when people become so evil that the destruction of all mankind becomes inevitable and God steps in to save and rescue Noah and his family.

Hillsage · Feb 25, 2018

mkgal1 said:
I was just reading something I found was interesting on "God's wrath" this morning.

From this article: The Flood According to Isaiah 54:7-9

In Isaiah 54:16, God explains why the flood came upon the earth. Using the imagery of “the blacksmith who blows the coals in the fire” God says, “I have created the spoiler to destroy” (Isaiah 54:16).

The Hebrew word translated as “spoiler” is the Hiphil participle from shachat. It could also be translated as “the destroyer” (cf. NAS, NIV, NET). More interestingly still, the Hiphil participle of shachat is also used in Genesis 6:13 and 17 in reference to the destruction that came upon the earth. By using such imagery, God explains why the flood came upon the earth: it came because the destroyer destroys. This is the fourth principle of the Chaos Theory.

But what does it mean when the text say that God created the destroyer to destroy? Is not the destroyer opposed to all that is good and Godly? Yes! God is not a destroyer, but a Creator. Nor does God “send” the destroyer to destroy. The destroyer destroys because he is a destroyer. And since everything that exists has it origin in God, it can be said that God created the destroyer. This idea is troubling to some, but note carefully how God explains this.

How the Destroyer Came to Be
Before God mentions that He created the destroyer, God says that He created the blacksmith (Isaiah 54:16a). The blacksmith blows on the coals and brings forth the instruments for his work. Though God created the blacksmith, it is the blacksmith who does his work and brings forth the tools and instruments from his forge.

When God creates, He only creates good things for good purposes. There is no evil intent in the heart of God. The destroyer was not created to be evil, or to do bad things. In fact, it might be best to realize that the destroyer was never created at all as “the destroyer.” Just as God did not create humanity sinful, but we became sinful through our rebellion, so also the destroyer became destructive, also as a result of rebellion.

Death, decay, and destruction are the natural consequence of disobeying God and going against His will. The only way that God can be said to have created the destroyer is by saying that He created a being with genuine free will, and in so doing, restricted Himself from intervening when that free being chose to depart from God’s perfect will.

God did not make or create death and destruction, but did allow for their possibility when He created life and gave freedom to His creation.

It is the same with human beings. When God created humanity with the freedom to go against His will, this freedom necessitated the possibility that history would go bad if we went against His will, which is exactly what happened in Genesis 3, and the negative consequences of this decision are felt in Genesis 4 when Cain murders his brother, in Genesis 5, where the phrase “and he died” is repeated over and over and over, and then in Genesis 6 when people become so evil that the destruction of all mankind becomes inevitable and God steps in to save and rescue Noah and his family.

I'm sending a study I put together to you MK because you've proven you can 'chew' meat pretty good IMO.

I'm getting pretty busy spiritually since the retreat last week, so time spent ministering in lives is going to trump being here. Be blessed.

WRATH

REV 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the SEVEN LAST PLAGUES; for in them is FILLED UP/COMPLETED/ENDED, THE WRATH/THUMOS OF GOD.

IOW WITH THE "FILLING OF THE WRATH/PASSION OF GOD" BY THESE 7 PLAGUES, THERE'S NOTHING 'ETERNALLY LEFT' UNPUNISHED. AND THE LAST PLAGUE WAS IN REV. 16: 17-21.

The word 'wrath/thumos' is defined as 'breathing hard, passion'. It has nothing to do with vindictiveness or vengeance that carnal minded men believe in. It has to do with God's passion and plan for destroying sin and saving sinners.

SRN #2372: thumos (pronounced thoo-mos'). from 2380; passion (as if breathing hard):--fierceness, indignation, wrath.

BUT THEN IN 16:1 WE FIND THAT WRATH/PASSION OF GOD IS NOT "FILLED UP/COMPLETED/ENDED". AND IN 16:19 WE FIND THE WORD NORMALLY TRANSLATED AS "WRATH" NOW CHANGED TO "FIERCENESS"?????

REV 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the FIERCENESS/THUMOS of his WRATH/ORGE.

Rev 14:8 should have been translated 'The wine of the PASSION/THUMOS of her fornication.'

For who would ever think of the sensual pleasures of fornication as being angry, vengeful, full of fury and violence! Unless some deluded soul thinks God RAPES people. Why haven't the pastors told us so? It is obvious when one reads of their deception along with the world.

Rev 17:2 "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the passion/thumos of her fornication."

The 'her' spoken of above, is the church of 'Mystery Babylon'. The Apostate church has been given false teaching and has become drunk with it. Drunk people lack perception; they're deceived; they cannot reason clearly because wine causes stupor.

MAR 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. 5 And when he had looked round about on them with ANGER/ORGE, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

SO APPARENTLY THE 'ORGE/PASSION/ANGER OF JESUS MOVED HIM TO REVEAL THE PURPOSE OF JESUS TO MAN.

SRN #3709 orge: prop. desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by anal.) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by
impl. punishment

REV 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he
treadeth the winepress of the FIERCENESS/THUMOS and WRATH/ORGE of Almighty God.

IOW THIS THUMOS AND ORGE EMOTION FROM GOD IS WHAT CREATES WINE OUT OF WHINING GRAPES. GOD DOESN'T NEED OUR WHINE, HE NEEDS TO MAKE OUR WHINE INTO HIS WINE, WHICH HAS A PURPOSE.

mkgal1 · Feb 25, 2018

Hillsage said:
MAR 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. 5 And when he had looked round about on them with ANGER/ORGE, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

SO APPARENTLY THE 'ORGE/PASSION/ANGER OF JESUS MOVED HIM TO REVEAL THE PURPOSE OF JESUS TO MAN.

Thank you so much for this, Hillsage. I'm going to read this over and really contemplate it, but as of right now (after doing a quick skim).....this verse may have just become one of my most favorite passages of all times.

This is great, too:

GOD DOESN'T NEED OUR WHINE, HE NEEDS TO MAKE OUR WHINE INTO HIS WINE, WHICH HAS A PURPOSE.

I'm grateful you've shared this.

rjs330 · Feb 25, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That's where the cherry-picking and using only certain verses to prove a point comes in from your side. Those verses are the context in which Jesus' words were spoken (the ones that are [mis]used to support your beliefs).

You're right.....they *are* off topic here.....because the topic of this thread was never what Jesus was speaking of.

Over and over again you seem to miss how you are doing what you're accusing me of (using Scriptures that seem to support your point while ignoring the rest of the context).

I have no issue with this passage (I just don't believe we interpret it in the same way). Verse 17--which you ignored....completely left out-- clearly states God's intention in sending Jesus was to save the world, not just a few individuals out of the world. The judgement mentioned there is self-inflicted (I believe)....but nothing there states it's eternal darkness (or eternal torment). Think of how Jesus interacted with people like the woman caught in adultery. What were His words to her? Jesus is our exact representation of God's being (Hebrews 1:3).

It's interesting that you cherry pick a verse then I quote the verse in context of the entire passage and quote the entire passage and you accuse me if cherry picking.

I left out the verse to show the verses that bracketed it. God not willing that any should perish. The world could be saved if they believed. Have you forgotten that narrow is the way and few find it? Broad is the way to destruction.

No I'm afraid scripture is very clear and you should conform your beliefs to what scripture says.

mkgal1 · Feb 26, 2018

rjs330 said:
It's interesting that you cherry pick a verse then I quote the verse in context of the entire passage and quote the entire passage and you accuse me if cherry picking.

I left out the verse to show the verses that bracketed it. God not willing that any should perish. The world could be saved if they believed.

I realized right after I'd posted that was what you were doing (showing the verses that bracketed what I'd quoted).....but decided to leave the post, as the rest stood.

That's not what I consider "cherry-picking" though (my quoting one verse)....because that *is* the thesis of the Good News that I see. I don't see any "if".....I see more of a "when they believe" in Scripture. That's not taking anything out of context. We can go back and forth with different verses for all eternity....the thing is we view Scripture from different perspectives (or, as Emma Higgs writes about in this linked article.....we all have our "goggles that we read from"):

Quoting Emma Higgs-------->A common criticism of people like me who openly oppose Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory is that we are picking and choosing the bits of the Bible we like, whilst ignoring some of the trickier bits.

I intend now to try and make it super clear that this is not what we are doing.

Invisible Goggles

The thing is, we all read things into the Bible that may or may not be there, based on our own understanding, cultural background and personal opinions.

It’s really, really difficult to read the Bible objectively (impossible, actually) – we all emphasise some bits over others, reject some bits as irrelevant and project our own frameworks of understanding onto the text to help us make sense of it. This is not a bad thing – it just helps to be aware that we’re doing it.

Most Christians who believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement claim that the Bible clearly supports it, and that there is no other way of interpreting certain texts. What they don’t realise is that they are reading the Bible through invisible lenses. Let’s call them PSA goggles.

PSA goggles have been the height of fashion in the protestant, particularly evangelical church for a good many centuries now. Long enough that they’ve become so much a part of our identity, we don’t even realise we are wearing them. They provide a logical explanation of the core meaning of Christianity based on a handful of verses, through which we then view the rest of the Bible.

PSA goggles also seem to have the unfortunate effect of obscuring the wearer’s view, so that many parts of the Bible which don’t fit with PSA theory are overlooked or ignored.

Before we jump right into dealing with the specific passages that appear to support PSA, we need to look at six broader Biblical themes that will help to put them into context.

Read more at A Thoroughly Biblical Argument Against Penal Substitutionary Atonement %

rjs330 said:
No I'm afraid scripture is very clear and you should conform your beliefs to what scripture says.

The theology that you seem to support (that Jesus rescued us from His angry/vengeful Father) divides up the Trinity (and then falls apart in many other ways as well). It's an entirely different narrative than what I see...mainly summed up as:

God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.~2nd Corinthians 5:21

Quoting a main theme isn't "cherry-picking"--not in my view--it's simplifying the Gospel by a consistent theme.....a plot.

If you wish to define "cherry-picking" as simply leaving out parts of the Bible....then I guess I'm in good company, as Jesus did that Himself.

From Jeremy Myers:

When Jesus declared the purpose of His ministry, He cherry-picked a key Old Testament passage to show that He was not going to be violent at all.
The text I am referring to is Luke 4:16-30. In this text, Jesus lays out His mission statement (Luke 4:18-19), which shows that He is only going to restore, heal, forgive, deliver, and set free. As part of His teaching, Jesus used an illustration from the Old Testament about how God sent Elijah the Prophet to a Gentile woman and a leprous Syrian general.

As a result of this sermon, those who listened to Jesus that day tried to kill Him (Luke 4:28-29). Why did they try to kill Jesus?

Because Jesus cherry-picked the Old Testament to present God as non-violent. His audience believed that God was violent, and this violence is then demonstrated in their attempt to kill Jesus (After all, you become like the god you worship).

How did Jesus cherry-pick the Old Testament?

Well, the text Jesus taught from was Isaiah 61:1-2. But if you go and look at the text that Jesus taught from, and compare it with the text He quoted in Luke 4:18-19, Jesus stopped His quotation midsentence! He didn’t finish reading Isaiah 61:2.

And what did He not read? The next phrase in Isaiah 61:2 talks about “the day of vengeance of our God.” Jesus purposefully ignored this phrase! He excluded it from His reading.~Why I Might Cherry-Pick Verses from the Bible

Doug Melven · Feb 26, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Most Christians who believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement claim that the Bible clearly supports it, and that there is no other way of interpreting certain texts. What they don’t realise is that they are reading the Bible through invisible lenses. Let’s call them PSA goggles.

You actually don't believe in penal substitution atonement?
Just to make sure, this is what you don't believe?

It states that God gave himself in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for our sin.

You should take a look at the book of Leviticus and try to figure out why God required all those animals to be killed.
Then look at Hebrews 9 to see how Christ did what those animals could never do.

Before you do that be sure to remove your " No substitutionary atonement Glasses"

mkgal1 · Feb 26, 2018

Doug Melven said:
You actually don't believe in penal substitution atonement?
Just to make sure, this is what you don't believe?

Nope.....I do not.

That was the only theory I'd heard growing up (and for years past that). I wasn't even aware of the other theories of at-one-ment until recently. As an animal lover....I never could bring myself to even *think about* the Old Covenant ways of doing things (beyond just being grateful for when I was born). This is what sits well with my soul:

-------->In Leviticus 16 we see the brilliant ritualization of what we now call scapegoating, and we should indeed feel sorry for the demonized goat. On the Day of Atonement, a priest laid hands on an “escaping” goat, placing all the sins of the Jewish people from the previous year onto the animal. Then the goat was beaten with reeds and thorns, and driven out into the desert. And the people went home rejoicing, just as European Christians did after burning a supposed heretic at the stake or American whites did after the lynching of black men. Whenever the “sinner” is excluded, our ego is delighted and feels relieved and safe. It sort of works, but only for a while. Usually the illusion only deepens and becomes catatonic, blind, and repetitive—because of course, scapegoating did not really work to eliminate the evil in the first place.

Jesus came to radically undo this illusory scapegoat mechanism, which is found in every culture in some form. He became the scapegoat to reveal the universal lie of scapegoating. Note that John the Baptist said, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin [singular] of the world” (John 1:29). It seems “the sin of the world” is ignorant killing, hatred, and fear. As Blaise Pascal so insightfully wrote, “People never do evil so completely and so cheerfully as when they do it with a religious conviction.” [2] We see this in much of the United States in our own time, with churches on every corner.

The Gospel is a highly subversive document. It painstakingly illustrates how the systems of both church and state (Caiaphas and Pilate) conspired to condemn Jesus. Throughout most of history, church and state have sought plausible scapegoats to carry their own shame and guilt. So Jesus became the sinned-against one to reveal the hidden nature of scapegoating, and we would forever see how wrong power can be—even religious power! (See John 16:8-11 and Romans 8:3.) Finally Jesus says from the cross: “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they’re doing” (Luke 23:34). The scapegoat mechanism largely operates in the unconscious; people do not know what they are doing. Scapegoaters do not know they are scapegoating, but they think they are doing a “holy duty for God” (John 16:2). You see why inner work, shadow work, and honest self-knowledge are all essential to any healthy religion.~https://cac.org/jesus-reveals-lie-scapegoating-2016-10-13/

AND:

---------->All the great religions of the world talk a lot about death, so there must be an essential lesson to be learned here. But throughout much of religious history our emphasis has been on killing the wrong thing and avoiding the truth: it’s you who has to die, or rather, who you think you are—your false self. It’s never someone else!

Historically we moved from human sacrifice to animal sacrifice to various modes of seeming self-sacrifice, usually involving the body. For many religions, including immature Christianity, God was distant and scary, an angry deity who must be placated. God was not someone with whom you fell in love or with whom you could imagine sharing intimacy or tenderness.

The common Christian reading of the Bible is that Jesus “died for our sins”—either to pay a debt to the devil (common in the first millennium) or to pay a debt to God the Father (proposed by Anselm of Canterbury, 1033-1109). Theologians later developed a “substitutionary atonement theory”—the strange idea that before God could love us God needed and demanded Jesus to be a blood sacrifice to ”atone” for our sin. As a result, our theology became more transactional than transformational.

Franciscan philosopher and theologian John Duns Scotus (1266-1308) was not guided by the Temple language of debt, atonement, or blood sacrifice (understandably used in the New Testament written by observant Jews). He was instead inspired by the cosmic hymns in the first chapters of Colossians and Ephesians and the first chapter of John’s Gospel. For Duns Scotus, the incarnation of God and the redemption of the world could never be a mere mop-up exercise in response to human sinfulness, but the proactive work of God from the very beginning. We were “chosen in Christ before the world was made” (Ephesians 1:4). Our sin could not possibly be the motive for the divine incarnation; rather, God’s motivation was infinite divine love and full self-revelation! For Duns Scotus, God never merely reacts, but always freely acts out of free and unmerited love.

Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity (it did not need changing)! Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God. ~https://cac.org/love-not-atonement-2017-05-04/

And another article about substitutionary atonement----> https://cac.org/substitutionary-atonement-2017-07-23/

One more: God loves the whole world....not just humans

****************
Really.....I think it all goes back to what we believe about the incarnation of Christ. That's the foundation laid for all our other religious beliefs (including the topic of this thread).

Doug Melven · Feb 26, 2018

Do you realize it was God Himself who instituted the sacrificing of animals to atone for our sins?
The idea that Jesus' sacrifice paid the devil to free us from sin is wrong.
The idea that Jesus'sacrifice paid the Father is just as wrong.
When a sin is committed, death is the result. Death is not payment to the Father, but God is holy and will not have fellowship with darkness.
God said that the day Adam sinned he would die.
God was the first to kill an animal to cover Adam's sin.
If wages for our sin is not paid, which Jesus did, we would die. That is we would be separated from God permanently. We could never have eternal life.

ClementofA · Feb 27, 2018

Der Alter said:
"They only see one form of justice (and it's retributive instead of restorative)." Was the justice God administered to the world of Noah's day retributive or restorative? Was the justice God administered to Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain retributive or restorative?

That would depend on what happened to them both after death & how God worked by His Spirit with the people drowning in the flood, though Scripture gives some indications as to the purpose of His judgments:

Job 5:17-18 “Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects; Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. For He bruises, but he binds up; He wounds, but His hands make whole.”

Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Der Alte · Feb 27, 2018

ClementofA said:
That would depend on what happened to them both after death & how God worked by His Spirit with the people drowning in the flood, though Scripture gives some indications as to the purpose of His judgments:

The argument was that God's punishment is always restorative not retributive. Where does scripture, NOT assumption/presupposition, state that all the unrighteous destroyed in the flood and Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain etc. were or will be restored? There is no record that God restored any of the people He destroyed on earth.

Job 5:17-18 “Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects; Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. For He bruises, but he binds up; He wounds, but His hands make whole.”
Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.
Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)
Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.
Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.
Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.
18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him

.

All these proof texts refer to people who were punished in some way while still living. There is no, none, zero, scripture which clearly state that God did or will restore anyone after they have died in their sins.

Jeremiah 13:13-14
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

mkgal1 · Feb 27, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Do you realize it was God Himself who instituted the sacrificing of animals to atone for our sins?

About that. It wasn't always that way (and there is a LOT behind all this).....and I'm not even sure if it's accurate to say "to atone for our sins" because--as it's said in Hebrews--that system fails ("it made nothing perfect"-Hebrews 7:19).

I found this explanation:

------>During the days of Genesis 14, the priest did not need to offer the bloody sacrifices, for these only became necessary later, when Israel became enslaved and addicted to the gods of Egypt (see Exodus and Ezekiel 20). God’s strategy to break Israel from these idolatrous customs was to make the people sacrifice ceremonially on Mount Sinai the very animals they had worshiped as gods in Egypt.~https://chnetwork.org/2010/03/16/the-meal-of-melchizedek/

There's a parallel that I see running all throughout the Bible---"God's way" compared to "man's/carnal way" (including Caiphas's way). Another parallel is the Law (represented in the Levitical priests) compared to the Royal priesthood represented in "the order of Melchizedek".

------>In Israel, only a Levite could be a priest; yet Jesus was not a Levite. So Old Testament Jews might be tempted to say that he couldn’t be a priest. The book of Hebrews, however, alludes to the wilderness generation under Moses, which committed idolatry and rebelled against God. Their rebellion was the Golden Calf, and God’s punishment was to take away the priesthood from the firstborn and give it to the Levites temporarily.~https://chnetwork.org/2010/03/16/the-meal-of-melchizedek/

-----> He is a “priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” The word “order” here does not mean a religious order like the Dominicans or the Franciscans. It means “after the manner” of Melchizedek’s priesthood. The writer goes on to draw a sharp contrast between the Levitical priests, who continued to offer animals in sacrifice, and priesthood in the order of Melchizedek. Levites had to kill. They had to sacrifice millions of sheep, millions of goats and millions of cattle, with millions of gallons of blood running down through the temple. Why? It was all because of the Golden Calf; whereas, before all that, priestly fathers and their priestly firstborn sons constituted a clean priesthood, represented by Melchizedek. “After the order of Melchizedek” suggests that Melchizedek’s manner of priestly sacrifice—bread and wine—was the manner in which the early Christians understood Christ’s priesthood as well.

"Now Melchizedek the king of Salem and the priest of El Elyon had brought bread and wine, and he blessed him"~Genesis 14:18-19

"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."~Matthew 26:26-28

To me.....that demonstrates restoration of what was.

Doug Melven said:
God said that the day Adam sinned he would die.
God was the first to kill an animal to cover Adam's sin.
If wages for our sin is not paid, which Jesus did, we would die.

I'm still not convinced that was to "cover Adam's sin" (I think we're imposing that onto Scripture....but I don't believe that's actually the message).

I'm understanding that more to be a symbol of the first Adam bringing death into this world (which we later know is then "restored to life by the second/last Adam" as in 1 Corinthians 15:45 Revelation 21:1; 21:4; 22:3).

Doug Melven said:
That is we would be separated from God permanently.

....I thought we'd gone through that already.....about how God is omnipresent :scratch:

But.....yes....His plan was in place to restore us to communion with Him from before the foundation of the earth (Eph 1:4)....and:

‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it” (Isaiah 46:3-11).

mkgal1 · Feb 27, 2018

"They only see one form of justice (and it's retributive instead of restorative)." Was the justice God administered to the world of Noah's day retributive or restorative? Was the justice God administered to Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain retributive or restorative?

I believe God is restoring us--and all His creation-- corporately.....as a trajectory back towards restoration of how He created everything ("God saw all that He had made, and it was very good"~Genesis 1:31------>"He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away."~Revelation 21:4). We're in the process stages (obviously).

Were more people born after the flood of Noah? Then I see that as proof that His justice is restorative. He's even recorded as saying:

“Do not fear, for you will not be ashamed;

Neither be disgraced, for you will not be put to shame;
For you will forget the shame of your youth,
And will not remember the reproach of your widowhood anymore.
5 For your Maker is your husband,
The Lord of hosts is His name;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel;
He is called the God of the whole earth.
6 For the Lord has called you
Like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
Like a youthful wife when you were refused,”
Says your God.
7 “For a mere moment I have forsaken you,
But with great mercies I will gather you.
8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment;
But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,”
Says the Lord, your Redeemer.

9 “For this is like the waters of Noah to Me;
For as I have sworn
That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth,
So have I sworn
That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you.
10 For the mountains shall depart
And the hills be removed,
But My kindness shall not depart from you,
Nor shall My covenant of peace be removed,”
Says the Lord, who has mercy on you.

“Behold, I have created the blacksmith
Who blows the coals in the fire,
Who brings forth an instrument for his work;
And I have created the spoiler to destroy.
17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper,
And every tongue which rises against you in judgment
You shall condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord,
And their righteousness is from Me,”
Says the Lord.~Isaiah 54

and back in Genesis 9 we read:

God’s covenant with all life
9 God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fertile, multiply, and fill the earth.

“I am now setting up my covenant with you, with your descendants, 10 and with every living being with you—with the birds, with the large animals, and with all the animals of the earth, leaving the ark with you. 11 I will set up my covenant with you so that never again will all life be cut off by floodwaters. There will never again be a flood to destroy the earth.”

12 God said, “This is the symbol of the covenant that I am drawing up between me and you and every living thing with you, on behalf of every future generation. 13 I have placed my bow in the clouds; it will be the symbol of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember the covenant between me and you and every living being among all the creatures. Floodwaters will never again destroy all creatures. 16 The bow will be in the clouds, and upon seeing it I will remember the enduring covenant between God and every living being of all the earth’s creatures.” 17 God said to Noah, “This is the symbol of the covenant that I have set up between me and all creatures on earth.”

Doug Melven · Feb 27, 2018

mkgal1 said:
...I thought we'd gone through that already.....about how God is omnipresent

So let's just do away with what God said.
Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Just because God is omnipresent doesn't mean that people aren't separated from Him.

And that explanation about the sacrifices and the Golden calf is garbage.
Not all sacrifices were made with a calf.
Sheep were used.
Turtledoves and pigeons were used for those who could not afford.
Even grain could be used.

You really need to take a serious look at Leviticus.
Leviticus 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

mkgal1 said:
I'm still not convinced that was to "cover Adam's sin" (I think we're imposing that onto Scripture....but I don't believe that's actually the message).

Then why was Cain's offering not accepted, but Abel's was?

mkgal1 · Feb 27, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Just because God is omnipresent doesn't mean that people aren't separated from Him.

That's why I continued and then said what I posted about being in communion with Him.

mkgal1 · Feb 27, 2018

Doug Melven said:
And that explanation about the sacrifices and the Golden calf is garbage.
Not all sacrifices were made with a calf.
Sheep were used.
Turtledoves and pigeons were used for those who could not afford.
Even grain could be used.

You really need to take a serious look at Leviticus.
Leviticus 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

What makes you think I *haven't* taken a serious look at Leviticus? Just b/c I have come to a different understanding than you have, doesn't mean I've not given this much time, prayer, reading, and contemplation.

What I shared doesn't imply that only calves were sacrificed (in fact....from what I shared, I believe the article actually states that a different animal was sacrificed each year. Although I could be wrong about that.).

The Israelites were continually being drawn towards idolatry (which included worshiping of many different animals....OVER God Himself. IOW...they were worshiping creation....not the Creator). Perhaps you'd benefit from reading about that (if I recall correctly, Exodus, Ezekiel, and Daniel are good books to glean from).

The explanation was that the Levites were given the priestly duties after the incident in the wilderness with the Golden calf. IOW....the priestly duties were taken from the firstborn sons of every family and given over to the Levites at that time. From Exodus 32:26-29

....then Moses stood in the gate of the camp and said, “Who is on the Lord’s side? Come to me.” And all the sons of Levi gathered around him. Moses said, "Today you've been ordained for the service of the Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, so that he might bestow a blessing upon you this day.”

The article I shared said,

----->Before this, before the Golden Calf, the pre-Israelites practiced a patriarchal family religion rooted in nature, in which fathers were high priests and their firstborn sons were priests under their authority. What was the sacrifice then that pleased God? Well, here we see it: bread and wine offered by God’s premier priest, Melchizedek. He offered bread and wine to Abraham who had come and paid his tithes. Abraham received bread and wine and then received a blessing. This would become the pattern of the Eucharistic liturgy: worshipers give their offerings; then Christ, working through the human priest, gives his body and blood under the appearance of bread and wine; and then the priest gives the blessing.~https://chnetwork.org/2010/03/16/the-meal-of-melchizedek/

If that were an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus) ....as in "forever"....then why do we have the New Covenant? As I mentioned before, we're told the Old Covenant "made nothing perfect" (Hebrews 7:19)

More from that same article:

------>The New Testament begins, “This is Jesus Christ, the seed of the son of Abraham, the Son of David.” Jesus Christ is the one through whom God fulfills the oath he swore to Abraham. Where did he swear it? On Moriah, the hill where the temple was later built and where Christ, the New Temple was later destroyed and rebuilt three days afterwards.

Hebrews 6 continues to talk about this oath, flowing into a discussion of the priesthood of Melchizedek:

We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Doug Melven said:
Then why was Cain's offering not accepted, but Abel's was?

From what I understand (and I know there's a LOT more).....it's a matter of foreshadowing (Abel gave his LIFE....although it wasn't of his own volition as he was murdered). It wasn't between their sacrifices they brought.....it was their hearts....their attitudes. God ultimately wants us to give our lives as a "living sacrifice" (and Abel had done that).

Also from that same article:

----->Before we examine the texts in Hebrews, however, I would like to call your attention to some words from the first Eucharistic Prayer, the Roman Canon. The priest with hands raised, prays: “Father, we celebrate the memory of Christ, your Son … Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as once you accepted the gift of your servant Abel who offered himself as an oblation.” Abel’s sacrifice was a perfect sacrifice of his own body and blood in an act of martyrdom, a very substantial image of Christ, but not perfect because it wasn’t voluntary; it was involuntary; it was murder. “The sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith, who offered his only beloved son on Moriah.” Another powerful symbol of our Lord, Jesus Christ—but Abraham didn’t really kill Isaac, so once again this is an inadequate image. Then the priest continues,“and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchizedek.”~https://chnetwork.org/2010/03/16/the-meal-of-melchizedek/

mkgal1 · Feb 27, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

...and on this passage? The way I see it.....Jesus said,

"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose."~Matthew 5:17

He also said to the disciples that He was now their friend and:

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."~John 15:13

Doug Melven · Feb 27, 2018

mkgal1 said:
The explanation was that the Levites were given the priestly duties after the incident in the wilderness with the Golden calf. IOW....the priestly duties were taken from the firstborn sons of every family and given over to the Levites at that time.

They were to be a kingdom of priests.
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
But, they sinned. Then in Exodus 32 the Levites separated themselves from the rest of the Israelites and in Numbers 1 God said the priestly duties was theirs.

mkgal1 said:
What makes you think I *haven't* taken a serious look at Leviticus?

Several times in Leviticus it is said that the sacrifices were made to atone for the people's sin.
There is no way, if you take a serious look at Leviticus, you can come up with any other conclusion.
Sin must be atoned for. And to atone for sin, a living being must die.
Jesus died a cruel death to atone for our sin.

mkgal1 said:
If that were an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus) ....as in "forever"....then why do we have the New Covenant?

Then you don't understand "everlasting".
A good definition would be, "no end in sight".

mkgal1 said:
---->Before we examine the texts in Hebrews, however, I would like to call your attention to some words from the first Eucharistic Prayer, the Roman Canon. The priest with hands raised, prays: “Father, we celebrate the memory of Christ, your Son … Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as once you accepted the gift of your servant Abel who offered himself as an oblation.” Abel’s sacrifice was a perfect sacrifice of his own body and blood in an act of martyrdom, a very substantial image of Christ, but not perfect because it wasn’t voluntary; it was involuntary; it was murder.

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Where does that come from?
Abel was not perfect. He was a sinner.

For all that fear hell

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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