Paul vs James who is right?

Rita G. said:

you still can't :
"prove that jews were NOT under covenant. . and then prove that gentiles were."
c'mon dude, . . .
or maybe you just . . can't

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Your not tying this to anything tangible. Your argument has shrunk to a couple of lines and some dots. I have made my case and if you don't believe me then fine, go in peace, I have no problem with you. But let's not pretend I didn't make an argument because I know for a fact you passed that a while back.

I accept your apology dude, but
you still can't :
"prove that jews were NOT under covenant. . and then prove that gentiles were."
admit it

Devin P said:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Well, I'd agree. I don't say James is saying that either.

But in this verse for example, was Abraham proving to men his faith? No. He had faith already, or he wouldn't of offered his son, but this faith resulted in and was perfected in an action. James is simply saying that all throughout scriptures, we see that God's word tells us that we are blessed with faith first, but that this faith results in and is perfected by, actions.

Those actions, are the obedience to God. Because it's one thing to have faith and believe, and even say you believe, but it's another to prove your belief, in altering the way you live your life to show that you believe.

We do what God says, and obey God, not for salvation, because we're already saved. We now that are saved, desire obedience to God and His word because we're saved. Therefore our works, are the works of God as fruits of salvation, not the roots of it. The fruit of our salvation, is that we have a desire to and actively do obey God's laws, statutes and decrees.

I've been in and have been keeping torah (the law) for almost a year now, and honestly it's been the most freeing, amazingly character building year I've ever had. I've learned SO much about God's word, the things Jesus was represented by in the old testament, I've made so much family from fellowship, grew in love for the Father, and have been blessed to watch Him blossom my faith and the faith of those around me. It's honestly the best year of my life, and I'm saddened only by the fact that I didn't come to understanding how important keeping torah was years ago. But, I understand that God has a timing for everything. He knows me more than I know me, so if last year when I came to Torah was best for me, so be it.

Once I realized that the "church" was Israel, it blew my mind, and opened up so much of the scriptures that things I never understood open wide up and make much more sense.

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Good for you. Each to their own. I find no Scriptural support for keeping the Torah as a Christian.

bugkiller

Rita G. said:

I accept your apology dude, but
you still can't :
"prove that jews were NOT under covenant. . and then prove that gentiles were."
admit it

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Yea actually that was never a real argument.

mark kennedy said:

Yea actually that was never a real argument.

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I'm glad it 'made your day'.

Grip Docility said:

Paul and James agree. Pure Religion undefiled is LOVE.

Without Love... faith and works are worthless.

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The problem I have is what are these seemingly required works. What are those works based on? Is keeping a retired covenant those works? Then it seems we really come down to behavior. I believe this is covered by the words of Jesus in Jn 13:34 and LK 6:31. I also believe Paul talks about this in several places covering several different behaviors. I do not believe this is what many here are talking about.

bugkiller

Devin P said:

Well no, as I said, and as James said, Abraham was justifiedby faith before being told to offer Isaac, but because he was first made righteous by faith, he then perfected that faith with circumcision and by being willing to offer his son. God stopped him though because he proved faithful in that he would've done what was asked - that he was obedient.

Salvation is still a free gift. But because we're saved we should desire obedience to God, not disobedience. Obedience to God and His laws is the fruit of our salvation, not the root of it. We are saved by faith, but without works that faith is simply lip service.

"For he who practices righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous."

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I think you do not consider the first definition of justified by the dictionary. A simple google inquirey turned this up for me to c&p -

having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason

To that I will agree Abraham was justified. Abraham did what was requested of him by God because he believed. Abraham was not made righteous for this single act of obedience. Abraham was made righteous because he believed (trusted) God.

bugkiller

bugkiller said:

Good for you. Each to their own. I find no Scriptural support for keeping the Torah as a Christian.

bugkiller

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Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is talking about after Jesus returns. All the places there you see "nations", it's that word goy or goyim - Hebrew for that word gentile.

So we see that gentiles will be punished for not keeping God's law after Jesus returns.

Romans 8:7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul says the mind that doesn't submit to God's law is carnal at against God.

Matthew 23:2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Jesus said to listen to the Pharisees because they taught what Moses taught, the law of God, but not to do as they did - because they put more importance on their own will, traditions and desires than on the law of God.

Even Jesus Himself said "depart from me ye who work iniquity". That word "iniquity", is translated from the Greek word "anomia" which means lawlessness. I mean these are just a few examples. Not only that, but there's several times where the apostles kept the law, and even an instance I can remember off hand of where Jesus (since He's our high priest, and according to the laws they can't enter the tabernacle while having drank alcohol) said that He won't drink wine until He returns. Because He won't be in the tabernacle, and will be free to. My point is, even He at this moment is keeping the law. The while reason He died was based in the law, the whole reason He resurrected was based in the law, so are His entire doings as we speak.

He said not until heaven and earth pass away, and there's verses that talk about how if heaven ever passes away then Israel will cease to be a nation forever. Meaning heaven will not pass away. He was saying it will never pass, not that it will.

mmbattlestar said:

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

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Its a long talk

but we are saved by "grace".....through faith. The grace of God is the word of His grace and we are born again by the word of God . This word is the seed sown in our hearts by faith.

So we are justified by
grace
by the Spirit,
by the blood,
by faith,
by works (God's works on the cross and His work in us at the new birth and as we abide in Christ by faith),
by our words,
by Jesus resurrection.

So James says how the body without the spirt is dead so faith without works is dead. It is as if he is saying a man who claims to be a christian and does not have the Spirit of God is dead ( spiritually) and a man who claims to be a christians and has God working in him is a real christian.

If a man says he has faith and does not have the new birth (born again by the word of God where Jesus christ is in him working), is he saved?

Paul is speaking of the works of the law that do not justify us. Paul also said that is a man has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. And we are not in the flesh but in the spirit , if so be that we abide in christ and walk in the spirit and live in the spirit.

Rita G. said:

Compare Ro 5:1 with Ja 2:24

Any child in elementary school who just learned how to read can understand that this is a CONTRADICTION!

YES! . . the bible has CONTRADICTIONS! . . BUT NO MISTAKES!

Paul and James were addressing 2 different audiences. . .

They don’t teach you this in your denominational churches.

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No the Bible does not have any contradictions. Many say this who do not understand the Bible or to dissuade people from their faith in God. It is a chief approach of the atheist.

bugkiller

Rita G. said:

James wrote to Jews Ja1:1 . they were under covenant.
Paul was the apostle to the gentiles (Ro 11:13) and his ministry was NOT under covenant.

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Paul's ministry was under the new covenant. What does Mat 28 say?

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

bugkiller

Rita G. said:

prove that jews were NOT under covenant. . and then prove that gentiles were.

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Only those who choose to accept the new covenant are under that covenant.

bugkiller

Devin P said:

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is talking about after Jesus returns. All the places there you see "nations", it's that word goy or goyim - Hebrew for that word gentile.

So we see that gentiles will be punished for not keeping God's law after Jesus returns.

Romans 8:7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul says the mind that doesn't submit to God's law is carnal at against God.

Matthew 23:2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Jesus said to listen to the Pharisees because they taught what Moses taught, the law of God, but not to do as they did - because they put more importance on their own will, traditions and desires than on the law of God.

Even Jesus Himself said "depart from me ye who work iniquity". That word "iniquity", is translated from the Greek word "anomia" which means lawlessness. I mean these are just a few examples. Not only that, but there's several times where the apostles kept the law, and even an instance I can remember off hand of where Jesus (since He's our high priest, and according to the laws they can't enter the tabernacle while having drank alcohol) said that He won't drink wine until He returns. Because He won't be in the tabernacle, and will be free to. My point is, even He at this moment is keeping the law. The while reason He died was based in the law, the whole reason He resurrected was based in the law, so are His entire doings as we speak.

He said not until heaven and earth pass away, and there's verses that talk about how if heaven ever passes away then Israel will cease to be a nation forever. Meaning heaven will not pass away. He was saying it will never pass, not that it will.

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Maybe I really should consider a travel agency business.

bugkiller

Paul. See my Mid Acts Dispensation thread to find out why.

bugkiller said:

Maybe I really should consider a travel agency business.

bugkiller

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Why's that?

One of the things to remember when comparing Paul with the other Apostles, (such as James) is that through the special ministry Paul was given, gentiles could now be saved WITHOUT going through Israel.

. . and YES, he did have a DIFFERENT gospel than James, Peter and the other Apostles. . . justification by faith alone.

James, Peter, John and the others that walked with Jesus were taught a performance based gospel. . justification by faith plus works.

bugkiller said:

The problem I have is what are these seemingly required works. What are those works based on? Is keeping a retired covenant those works? Then it seems we really come down to behavior. I believe this is covered by the words of Jesus in Jn 13:34 and LK 6:31. I also believe Paul talks about this in several places covering several different behaviors. I do not believe this is what many here are talking about.

bugkiller

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Choice and sincereity to God are the “Requirements”... Choice to rely on Jesus’ works and the Love that flows to Jesus, self and all humanity after making that humble choice are all there is to do.

If people actually think it goes beyond that... they are suggesting the impossible.

If Jesus didn’t really pay the full tab... we are all debtors bound to be in eternal debt.

I fully agree with you.

I would even go so far as to say that many that never knew His name will be saved by what He did...

mmbattlestar said:

Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?

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If you read the letter of James a number of times, you will notice more deeply what James is really saying. For example, please read the following verse and think about what James is asking.

James 2:14
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

In other words, James is asking and rightly so; Can a person claim to be justified by faith while ignoring the suffering of another Christian?

James is honestly asking you; whether a genuine faith has anything to do with helping another Christian?

Is there any definable relationship between faith and love, a rather interesting question that James raises?

Is justifying faith supposed to be an active faith or can it be a idle faith?

Can a Christian by definition, be devoid of any trace of love towards others?

James 2:18
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

See how James places the emphasis on faith first, 'I will show you my faith by my works'.

James will show you real faith, faith that is living and breathing, a faith that is in service to the author of life. By how the faith of James behaves towards others, those less fortunate Christians.

Are you now, having been justified by faith immune to the plight of other Christians?

Are you indebted to God in anyway by being saved by Grace through faith?

Does God require anything from you in return for that free gift of eternal life?

The question of James does provoke some serious thought, what does faith really mean?

Rita G. said:

I'm glad it 'made your day'.

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That's just an expression, kind of a joke. The truth is the OT covenants have nothing to do with this. This is about how salvation works and Jesus makes it clear:

• On the Path: Hears the message and doesn't understand it.
• Rocky Ground: No root, they fall away quickly due to persecution.
• Thorny Ground: Cares of this life and deceitfulness of riches chock out the word.
• Good Soil: Produces a crop, bearing fruit. (Luke 13:13-18)

Notice only the last soil (heart) was the only one to bear fruit.

The rich thought they were better then the poor and treated them accordingly. They didn't want to share and apparently they could be very harsh with the things they said. They might wish them well but did nothing to help, even fellow believers, even during the agape feast. This was written sometime after 60AD, the Lord had ascended roughly 33 AD and Jews converted regularly over that time. I don't think he is talking to new converts here, I think they have been Christians for a while and still they are not bearing fruit. James asks the question, is this even saving faith.

They were having the same problem in Corinth, Paul tells them when you partake of the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner you heap judgment upon your self, some of you are sick and some of you sleep. Sleep is a figure of speech, it means dead. He's not talking about the ceremony he is talking about the agape feast, a kind of pitch in dinner that was part of the Lord's Supper. They were feeding their faces and getting drunk while the other believers, probably slaves, went hungry, sitting there watching them gorge themselves.

James is talking to the Jews of the Dispersion while the church of Corinth (central Greece) it was almost exclusively Greek. That much you got right and there was nothing in the Old Testament about how the rich treat the poor, at least not in the Law, not really. Some things about gleaning and the was a Jubilee but over all you could be pious and even blameless under the Mosaic Law and still treat the poor like little more then livestock. The prophets were livid about this, why do you grind my poor like wheat the Lord complains through Isaiah. Because of that you are storing up for yourselves judgment.

Now that's a long winded way of saying simply this, they were not bearing fruit. Jesus sums up the Law saying love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself. There is no Law against love and the fruit of the Holy Spirit Paul elaborates in Galatians and in the New Testament, a tree that doesn't produce fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.

This is simple unless we get all caught up is extraneous issues. Your conduct matters, God is very indignant over how we speak to and otherwise treat one another. If you cultivate the gospel sown in your heart it will bear fruit. James is just saying, if you are sowing the word in your heart and getting nothing but thorn and thistles you might not really be saved.

Pardon the length of the post, I think this is an important point to consider. You can be under the Mosaic Law, even keeping the minutia and fail to love your neighbor as yourself, which is impossible. If you love God with all your heart, mind soul and strength because God loves us, even the poor, maybe even more so.

Grace and peace,
Mark