If you are a sinner, you are NOT saved by grace!

As a parent, we feed our children and supply all of their needs for a good number of years.

One thing many of us do, is, we put things in place to teach our children to be generous, empathetic toward others, respectful, and responsible. That is, we do these things if we are a good parent.

We often offer our children what are called incentives in the form of a modest monetary allowance and/or additional privileges which we do not really have to give them of our appreciation for their doing what we ask of them which is really for their benefit in leaning values which will make their life better even long after they leave the nest.

Most of us have experienced the child who rebels and accuses us of making them our slave merely because we require of them what is for their own good.

Ergo those who insist that because God asks of us that we do what is good for us it means salvation is no longer a free gift.

Although the parent could have chosen not to even have children, the parent chose to have them and to be responsible for their care, before these children ever even knew what life was.

Still, we find some of them who when not getting things their way, and when insisting they have a right to this and that, and intimating that the parent is cruel for denying it to them, they retort, "I did not ask to be born."

I have to say it like it is. That brat attitude is all this free gift doctrine has been twisted into by many. God owes them this and so if he asks them to do anything for their own good and to learn appreciation, suddenly they claim they are earning God's grace (his goodness and generosity).

Very sad. They render it difficult for God to teach them the same as the spoiled child makes it difficult for a parent to teach them. Haughtiness, "I should not have to do anything because you owe me!" Only disguised under a claim that the Scriptures support that they do not have to do anything. So that they even deceive themselves as to what they are really saying.

Buzz_B said:

If that what you said in your previous post were true we would be able to get to that salvation without faith.

Thanks for letting us know we can dispense with faith if we want to and yet be saved.

What you said well illustrates the problem with human wisdom. It can seem so right and yet be very subtly deceptive.

You say: "faith, which is itself a gift--i.e. grace." But you fail to see that you have really said nothing. For the fact that we were allowed to be born and live at all after Adam's sin was and is a gift of God's grace. Naturally anything we are permitted to do because of that gift of being able to be born is also a gift of grace. Every breath we take is a gift of God's grace.

And you are yet subtly tricking yourself in this current post. Think about it again. You are indeed using human wisdom to understand, and that is why you are getting it wrong.

You seem to think that something being a gift means we have nothing to do with accepting and using it. Even allowing our hearts to receive it. You are not being realistic. You let your wisdom stop you short of reasoning it all of the way through.

If it were really true that faith comes from outside ourselves, as you wrongly claim, then surely our God whose desire it is that all repent and be saved would give faith to all. Further, lacking faith in Jesus would not then condemn us, for it would be God's fault that we did not have faith.

Obviously you are not understanding correctly. You must then either accept that you must be wrong or believe the Bible is wrong. Which will you do? I recommend faulting your comprehension of what the Scriptures are saying and studying on to figure out what they really are saying.

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And @ViaCrucis

Actually, you're both right and need to come to an understanding. It is God that gives everyone a measure of faith. And it is we who accept or reject it, either working with the faith, or working against it.

Faith is not the problem; a differing definition of grace is.

Discuss grace if you REALLY want to argue.

1stcenturylady said:

And @ViaCrucis

Actually, you're both right and need to come to an understanding. It is God that gives everyone a measure of faith. And it is we who accept or reject it, either working with the faith, or working against it.

Faith is not the problem; a differing definition of grace is.

Discuss grace if you REALLY want to argue.

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Saving faith is a supernatural gift of God which is given to us through the Means of God's grace, His Word and Sacraments.

We can reject God's gifts, but it is not about accepting them. If it were up to us to accept God's gifts then we would have room to boast--but St. Paul is clear that we have no room for boasting.

God alone saves us, out of His own loving-kindness toward us. That, and nothing else.

-CryptoLutheran

Buzz_B said:

Now you are keeping yourself confused by the use of many words.

If you are humble you will use the seed I sowed to you and find your way to the true spirit of the matter. I need not engage in wrestling with you.

You are using human wisdom. If you are not humble enough to allow anyone to tell you that, oh well. All I am asking is that you see the very simple truth I pointed out to you. It is truth whether you like it or not. Take time and think about it instead of wasting your mental energy trying to repel it. It is God's truth trying to get you to open your mind and heart to honestly consider and accept it or reject it, by which God's word judges us all.

And don't waste your time and energy judging me. Judge the message and not hastily. Take time with it and really think it through. Just because it makes you uncomfortable by contradicting what you believe is no excuse.

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I am always fascinated by those who think themselves very spiritual. The Russian Orthodox have a word for this concept, they call it prelest.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Saving faith is a supernatural gift of God which is given to us through the Means of God's grace, His Word and Sacraments.

We can reject God's gifts, but it is not about accepting them. If it were up to us to accept God's gifts then we would have room to boast--but St. Paul is clear that we have no room for boasting.

God alone saves us, out of His own loving-kindness toward us. That, and nothing else.

-CryptoLutheran

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That sounds like the "irresistible grace" of Calvinism. I didn't know Lutherans were Calvinists. Are you?

1stcenturylady said:

And @ViaCrucis

Actually, you're both right and need to come to an understanding. It is God that gives everyone a measure of faith. And it is we who accept or reject it, either working with the faith, or working against it.

Faith is not the problem; a differing definition of grace is.

Discuss grace if you REALLY want to argue.

Click to expand...

Actually you are wrong. I know you do not think so but you are. And I know why you are wrong.

I know that no one wants intentionally to turn out to be wrong. Even those whom Paul seems to indicate may be without hope not only deceive others but are themselves deceived. They do not know that they are deceiving others because they themselves are deceived. That is why Paul said, “deceiving, and being deceived ...” 2 Timothy 3:13

This subject in this thread well illustrates that, “deceiving, and being deceived ...” 2 Timothy 3:13 How does that happen to them?

Ask yourselves, from where did the idea which claims that, once saved, there is no sin that a person can commit which will separate them from God? The idea that the “free gift” is no longer free if any at all works are required is born in the same way as that wrong idea. But the only ones who are finally lost are those of whom Paul said are, “... as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.” In other words they have not enough faith to endure their own selves being found wrong and overcome it, believing that they can find the real truth.

Our doctrines are founded by thoughts built up atop another just as stones to build a structure. That structure is our doctrine. No doctrine is based upon one single thought alone.

More than that, our thoughts are like biological stones which can pass defect upward through every stone of thought lain atop of them, as in the process of the spread of sin. As biological thinking creatures, sin spreads by our words which convey our thoughts. Those thoughts are then analyzed by others and either accepted into themselves or they are rejected. And even that rejection can be in whole or in part, so that having rejected a part of our thoughts they can yet receive some of our thinking into themselves which may be flawed. Thus spread of error can be very subtle. The Bible calls it, “work of errors” from being “brutish in his [a man's] knowledge.” Jeremiah 10:14-15; Jeremiah 51:17-18: Hebrews 3:10; James 5:19-20

For that reason, when we find that one of our beliefs is defective we must also search to figure out what beliefs the flawed beliefs were born from. That means we cannot just assume that another of our beliefs proves our suspect idea is not wrong. For the belief we are using to test our suspect belief may also be wrong and we have to make sure it and any it is based upon do not themselves also contain err.

Truth when we hear it is naturally going to expose flaws (err) in what really are our untruths. That is a fact set in stone by the natural law of God. When a truth exposes an untruth in what we believe, we do wrong to jump quickly to just letting another of our beliefs impede the work of that truth which is doing the exposing by the power of God's spirit upon it. Instead, we should let that truth be the basis for challenging all of the beliefs which the exposed belief was founded upon. That is the purpose and power of God's real truth. It is why the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword.

If we impede that work, then it is that we end up hopelessly stuck with a form of truth which proves false to its power to empower us to more and more truth. For it can only then empower us to further untruth, deceiving us and those who would learn from us.

When one really loves truth, they forget their self. They are not offended to be found wrong. They learn they are wrong and learn what it takes to correct it and to cease letting it happen to them. The spiritual mechanics I have explained here will go a long way toward helping us to do that IF we love God's truth enough to apply these spiritual mechanics in our life to our benefit.

I know that some if not many are looking at me as just speaking in arrogance. The spoiled child sees its parent as ignorant and worse, when that parent tries to help that child. It is not me you reject. I know that. It is the word through me you reject. A dangerous thing to do apart from being absolutely certain that word through me is not the word of God. Most of you just jump to another wrong idea rather than fully examining yourselves and your ideas of belief and so you do not give yourself the chance to really know. I, too, used to be like that. That is why I know you do not have to remain locked up like that.

And some of you will just retort that you could make the same claims. The difference is that I have not imagined God's appointment of me and his empowering me to understand and to speak. I am truly commissioned of God to have him speak through me. The proof is evident to any who really love truth and care to do the in depth examination of themselves I herein described. The rest of you will harbor murder in your hearts toward me even as those who killed the prophets.

Look what Paul said of the Jews:

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

ViaCrucis said:

I am always fascinated by those who think themselves very spiritual. The Russian Orthodox have a word for this concept, they call it prelest.

-CryptoLutheran

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So pat yourself on the back. I don't mind. I live to die with Christ. I hope to your benefit but know that is up to you.

Buzz_B said:

Actually you are wrong. I know you do not think so but you are. And I know why you are wrong.

I know that no one wants intentionally to turn out to be wrong. Even those whom Paul seems to indicate may be without hope not only deceive others but are themselves deceived. They do not know that they are deceiving others because they themselves are deceived. That is why Paul said, “deceiving, and being deceived ...” 2 Timothy 3:13

This subject in this thread well illustrates that, “deceiving, and being deceived ...” 2 Timothy 3:13 How does that happen to them?

Ask yourselves, from where did the \idea which claims that, once saved, there is no sin that a person can commit which will separate them from God? The idea that the “free gift” is no longer free if any at all works are required is born in the same way as that wrong idea. But the only ones who are finally lost are those of whom Paul said are, “... as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.”

Our doctrines are founded by thoughts built up atop another just as stones to build a structure. That structure is our doctrine. No doctrine is based upon one single thought alone.

More than that, our thoughts are like biological stones which can pass defect upward through every stone of thought lain atop of them, as in the process of the spread of sin. As biological thinking creatures, sin spreads by our words which convey our thoughts. Those thoughts are then analyzed by others and either accepted into themselves or they are rejected. And even that rejection can be in whole or in part, so that having rejected a part of our thoughts they can yet receive some of our thinking into themselves which may be flawed. Thus spread of error can be very subtle. The Bible calls it, “work of errors” from being “brutish in his [a man's] knowledge.” Jeremiah 10:14-15; Jeremiah 51:17-18: Hebrews 3:10; James 5:19-20

For that reason, when we find that one of our beliefs is defective we must also search to figure out what beliefs the flawed beliefs were born from. That means we cannot just assume that another of our beliefs proves our suspect idea is not wrong. For the belief we are using to test our suspect belief may also be wrong and we have to make sure it and any it is based upon do not themselves also contain err.

Truth when we hear it is naturally going to expose flaws (err) in what really are our untruths. That is a fact set in stone by the natural law of God. When a truth exposes an untruth in what we believe, we do wrong to jump quickly to just letting another of our beliefs impede the work of that truth which is doing the exposing by the power of God's spirit upon it. Instead, we should let that truth be the basis for challenging all of the beliefs which the exposed belief was founded upon. That is the purpose and power of God's real truth. It is why the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword.

If we impede that work, then it is that we end up hopelessly stuck with a form of truth which proves false to its power to empower us to more and more truth. For it can only then empower us to further untruth, deceiving us and those who would learn from us.

When one really loves truth, they forget their self. They are not offended to be found wrong. They learn they are wrong and learn what it takes to correct it and to cease letting it happen to them. The spiritual mechanics I have explained here will go a long way toward helping us to do that IF we love God's truth enough to apply these spiritual mechanics in our life to our benefit.

I know that some if not many are looking at me as just speaking in arrogance. The spoiled child sees its parent as ignorant and worse, when that parent tries to help that child. It is not me you reject. I know that. It is the word through me you reject. A dangerous thing to do apart from being absolutely certain that word through me is not the word of God. Most of you just jump to another wrong idea rather than fully examining yourselves and your ideas of belief and so you do not give yourself the chance to really know. I, too, used to be like that. That is why I know you do not have to remain locked up like that.

And some of you will just retort that you could make the same claims. The difference is that I have not imagined God's appointment of me and his empowering me to understand and to speak. I am truly commissioned of God to have him speak through me. The proof is evident to any who really love truth and care to do the in depth examination of themselves I herein described. The rest of you will harbor murder in your hearts toward me even as those who killed the prophets.

Look what Paul said of the Jews:

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

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Think what you like, I'm not interested in your erroneous, hate-filled judgments. You and @ViaCrucis have a nice chat if you can get over yourself.

1stcenturylady said:

Think what you like, I'm not interested in your erroneous, hate-filled judgments. You and @ViaCrucis have a nice chat if you can get over yourself.

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See, I told you so.

Buzz_B said:

See, I told you so.

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If it feels good having no fruit, then so be it unto you.

1stcenturylady said:

If it feels good having no fruit, then so be it unto you.

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Be in peace.

Hebrews 12:5-8
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Buzz_B said:

Be in peace.

Hebrews 12:5-8
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

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Do you not know yourself? It is obvious to everybody else. Look in the mirror. You start out every post to someone with hateful slander and grandiose ideas about yourself. I feel sorry for you. So have the last word, because you are going on ignore and I won't see it, but everyone else will know I'm right.

1stcenturylady said:

Do you not know yourself? It is obvious to everybody else. Look in the mirror. You start out every post to someone with hateful slander and grandiose ideas about yourself. I feel sorry for you. So have the last word, because you are going on ignore and I won't see it, but everyone else will know I'm right.

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That is exactly what those who resisted Jesus and the apostles thought and even said. They came right out an told Paul that his words were weak and contemptible.

You are too proud to let yourself learn any further than what you have contented yourself to believe you already know. Not a good position to be in, especially for a woman who has no God given right to counsel grown men, as Paul pointed out.

Your mistake is that you believe God has just placed his power in you by means of his spirit and is now doing it for you. That is a false belief the same as some of your other errant beliefs. I explained in a post or two sometime back how that power is in the wisdom of God bound up in the words that God speaks to us in the Scripture. And those words are alive with God's spirit by that wisdom they contain. And I showed you that seed at 1 John 3:9 is God's word retained in our hearts. It is easily provable except to those who are so filled and bent toward their own intelligence that they will not hear it.

You would, if you were really caring to find truth, go back and really care to consider my past posts, for the truth is there. What you have is not only far from complete, but worse, you stop your ears up with what you have and then walk around with your neck stretched and your head held high so that no one can tell you much of anything. You are like that rich man who died in Jesus' parable at Luke 16 who even in his agony would only ask for a compromise rather than fully accepting what God was doing.

And eventually someone will move to do to me what the Jews did to the prophets and apostles, sometimes directly, and sometimes using the Roman hand of power to do their dirty work for them.

All I will say when it finally does happen, is, "I told you so."

You say you and everyone can see me. If that were true you would know that I write many things I write to you with tears. I find no joy in not having the right to water things down for you. It is the bitter-sweet message of Revelation 10:9-10 I am bringing to you. And I actually have toned that message down more than I should. For it is a message of judgment. God's judgment, not mine.

1stcenturylady said:

That sounds like the "irresistible grace" of Calvinism. I didn't know Lutherans were Calvinists. Are you?

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No, we're not. And we don't believe in irresistable grace, at least not in the way Calvinists do. Grace is resistable, in fact that is the default human response to grace, which is precisely why we can't accept God's grace as an act of will; it is only by the gracious act of God turning us toward Himself, reconciling us to Him, that we go from being enemies of God to children of God.

The enmity isn't God toward us, the enmity is us toward God. St. Paul says that while we were God's enemies He reconciled us to Himself. God took hold of us and made us His--that's grace.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

No, we're not. And we don't believe in irresistable grace, at least not in the way Calvinists do. Grace is resistable, in fact that is the default human response to grace, which is precisely why we can't accept God's grace as an act of will; it is only by the gracious act of God turning us toward Himself, reconciling us to Him, that we go from being enemies of God to children of God.

The enmity isn't God toward us, the enmity is us toward God. St. Paul says that while we were God's enemies He reconciled us to Himself. God took hold of us and made us His--that's grace.

-CryptoLutheran

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Once again you play the word game on yourself.

You say, "Grace is resistable, in fact that is the default human response to grace", that is what is called willfulness. Our resistance is the result of the willfulness caused of sin because we obey sin in our lack of wisdom (ignorance). It is untrue the anything done in ignorance is not an act of our will.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

Hebrews 13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

You seem to think that because the devil can snatch us to do his will that our will is not involved. That is an error of thinking, for because we are deceived we give ourselves over to the devil willing.

That is why we also must ascertain what the will of God is and instead choose to give ourselves willingly over to God to do his will:

Ephesians 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Your religions have literally buried you with twisted and false ideas so that you are near past knowing how to think soundly any longer. That is the mark of wicked men. They are unreasonable. That is, they have no ability to reason:

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

And this is why it is about the spirit of wisdom which is bound up powerfully in God's words so that when understood, as Ephesians 5:17 says, is taken into our it then is able to impart that power to us. Only in the heart of man can it do that.

Next you will say, "But we are born not by the will of men but by the will of God." You are not understanding what is said, if you do. It works like I said above. Of course we are born of God's will, IF we willing turn to his will finding out by understanding his word so that we know what his will is. It is not rocket science nor mysticism as you have been taught to make it out to be.

Buzz_B said:

Once again you play the word game on yourself.

You say, "Grace is resistable, in fact that is the default human response to grace", that is what is called willfulness. Our resistance is the result of the willfulness caused of sin because we obey sin in our lack of wisdom (ignorance). It is untrue the anything done in ignorance is not an act of our will.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

Hebrews 13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

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Did you happen to notice something about most of those passages?

2 Peter 3:5 speaks of being willingly ignorant.
1 Peter 4:3 speaks of the will of the Gentiles, walking in the lusts of the flesh.
2 Timothy 4:3 speaks those who will not endure sound doctrine.

Did you notice that in all three of those passages it speaks of the human will being turned against God, and toward ourselves to seek out our own selfish and sinful desires?

And what of Hebrews 13:18, did you happen to notice that the author is speaking, present tense, of those which have faith?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Did you happen to notice something about most of those passages?

2 Peter 3:5 speaks of being willingly ignorant.
1 Peter 4:3 speaks of the will of the Gentiles, walking in the lusts of the flesh.
2 Timothy 4:3 speaks those who will not endure sound doctrine.

Did you notice that in all three of those passages it speaks of the human will being turned against God, and toward ourselves to seek out our own selfish and sinful desires?

And what of Hebrews 13:18, did you happen to notice that the author is speaking, present tense, of those which have faith?

-CryptoLutheran

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Now that is a commendable attempt to reason. I applaud you for that.

Now realize that all of those texts were because of being willingly ignorant (as in not concerned or indifferent) about what God's will for us is.

And realize that what you spoke about Hebrews 13:18 being present tense is your English perception but in the Greek it is a continuous action verb expressed by the present tense in English. Those who have accepted to have faith naturally presently live willingly that faith. But the Greek is not perfectly compatible to the English sense. In the Greek it is a continuous action verb. In other words, it must also be willingly maintained by us as a resolve in our hearts.

ViaCrucis said:

Grace is resistable, in fact that is the default human response to grace, which is precisely why we can't accept God's grace as an act of will; it is only by the gracious act of God turning us toward Himself, reconciling us to Him, that we go from being enemies of God to children of God.

The enmity isn't God toward us, the enmity is us toward God. St. Paul says that while we were God's enemies He reconciled us to Himself. God took hold of us and made us His--that's grace.

-CryptoLutheran

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That doesn't sound like we have a choice. That would be irresistable grace. What am I not seeing?

And please back up your statements with corroborating scripture.

perhaps it would help if I explained the relationship of what Jude said:

Jude 1:3 "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

And how that ties in closely with we he said, here:

Jude 1:21 "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

And how that ties in with the name God gave to Jacob, the name, "Israel."

Jacob proved to be willing to relentlessly contend for the promise, even to the point of being willing to wrestle an angel of God to get it. The name, "Israel", denotes that fortitude showed by Jacob. His willingness to keep fighting until he received the promise. All of those described in Hebrews 11 were showing that same fortitude, that relentless willingness to keep fighting for the thing that through the strength of their faith was so real to them that it was as if they had it right there within their reach to grasp at.

The earnestly contending for the faith Jude speaks of there in verse 3 is so that they would not be overcome by those dark cloud deceivers who had crept into the congregation among them. Thus:

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

We must have that Israel tenacity to contend, else there are many forces in this life that can and do threaten our salvation. Jesus' telling us what he did about no one being able to snatch us out of his or his Father's hand was meant to assure us that if we contended for that faith, keeping our faith and love of God and the Son strong then it is that we have not to fear that anybody or anything can take it away from us. But it is wrong to interpret what Jesus said as if it means we are suddenly free to not have to contend to keep our faith and love strong toward God and against those unkempt forces trying to destroy it.

aiki said:

Yes. Paul the apostle says so quite plainly in Galatians 5:22.



Yes, the apostle James makes this point very strongly in James 2.



Faith gives rise to deeds but faith is not those deeds. When a wind blows strongly across a lake and waves are stirred up, is it correct to say, "Those waves are the wind!"? Obviously not. This is to mistake an effect for its cause. Likewise, it is mistaking the effect for its cause to say that the works faith may produce are faith itself. Faith is a persuasion of mind that provokes corresponding action, but that action is not itself faith.



Yes. But active in what way? Sometimes, faith does nothing more than accept a proposition as true. For example, I take it on faith that the planet Jupiter exists. I have never seen Jupiter itself with my own two eyes, only photos of it. I have no means of verifying the existence of Jupiter for myself. I just believe. My belief in Jupiter, however, requires no corresponding action, it doesn't shape the character of my living at all. It is merely a fact I have chosen to accept as true.



As I pointed out already in this thread, the fruit of the Spirit are the characteristics, the nature, of the Spirit manifested in the believer's life. These characteristics may be expressed in things the believers does or doesn't do though they are not works in-and-of-themselves but fundamentally characteristics of a state of being. An apple tree is alive, and nourished, and watered, it has the genetic characteristics that make bearing apples possible, and so it bears apples. But being nourished by the soil, and watered by the rain, and being genetically able to bear apples are not things the apple tree does to bear apples, these are things the tree is and receives so that it might bear fruit. In the same way, a believer must first receive and be before he can do, before he can bear spiritual "apples." So, while the Fruit of the Spirit produces works, it is not first of all a work but a state of being.

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Let's stick to your statement:

"So, no one saves themself by anything they do, but are saved entirely and only by the grace and work of God."

I disagree ......for If we do nothing, nothing will be done.

As Dallas asked? What is unmerrited favor?
[It's unearned]...but not opposed to effort.
And that's all I have to say in that area....