Why I could personally never chose to be Catholic

Albion said:

Did you know that the Catholic Church itself calls both the veneration of Mary and the worship of God by the term "worship?" Yes, it tries to make a distinction between the two types of worship but it calls them both worship. So...not a strawman.

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Yes I know that. I see that you project your own limitation of experience onto the word and don't allow for the word to have the wide variety of conceptions that it originated with. In the past a kings knight may bow and say " your worship, you sent for me?" Would you accuse the knight of bowing to a human and giving him worship that only is for God?? No, he responds properly to royalty according to the times in your mind. That isn't the worship that that knight gives to God you might say. You would acknowledge that without a thought. But not if it is Catholics bowing to the King's mother. It will be claimed it is really latria not dulia. That they are worshiping a human as God you do say. The truth is, that is dulia not latria.

The Catholic Church being as old as it is, doesn't project a modern limitation to an ancient word.Neither do you if it is a knight bowing to his human king. The Catholic Church doing the bowing and worshiping of a human queen isn't allowed. That's the strawman that you make of Catholic worship because you don't allow the real thing to be acknowledged like you allow the knight. Even when the real man say's with his own mouth what he is really doing and what the difference is. So if it is a Catholic testimony it is guilty until proven guilty. Jesus is given the worship that only God is due, latria. The hyperdulia that Mary receives is due to the mother of the King. If you accept Jesus fully but not His mother fully, how can you say you fully accept Jesus as King? Remember the Bride is not yet spotless or presentable. Until then, Jesus' mother is His only queen.

Albion said:

Hyperduliahī-per-dū-lī′a n the special kind of worship paid by Roman Catholics to the Virgin Mary being higher than that paid to other saints (dulia) and distinct from that paid to God alone (latria) Gr hyper beyond douleia service.

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Catholics see the mother of God as having the highest honor given to a human person who is not God. We can hope we manifest the Word spiritually into the world in our acts and speech. Jesus' mother manifest the Word whole materially and Personally. Through her the world receives salvation. Jesus is Salvation. No one from the beginning or end of time will do that again. I can offer the typesw and shadows of Mary in the bible as well. Pure and untouchable. How central she is because of her exclusive unity with Our Savior. Simon the old Prophet at the Temple, He knew. He uttered the prophetic words that unite the Crucified Christ to another human's suffering. Exclusive place for Mary. I hope you see the implications. That unity is impossible for a prophet from the past, even if it's Elijah or Moses. They yearned to see what Mary's maternity produced and was united to in human maternal bond. I hope you see an extension of the union of Divine and human natures happening in the maternal bond of Mary and to the Nativity of the Incarnation. I could go on and on with reasons that can't be matched by scriptures isolated from it's context for a particular purpose that reduces the truth of Jesus' mother.

Eloy Craft said:

Yes I know that. I see that you project your own limitation of experience onto the word and don't allow for the word to have the wide variety of conceptions that it originated with.

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My purpose was to show that your earlier dismissal of the possible worship of Mary merely by insisting that hyperdulia means something different from worship is open to question.

Jesus is given the worship that only God is due, latria. The hyperdulia that Mary receives is due to the mother of the King. If you accept Jesus fully but not His mother fully, how can you say you fully accept Jesus as King? Remember the Bride is not yet spotless or presentable. Until then, Jesus' mother is His only queen...Through her the world receives salvation. Jesus is Salvation. No one from the beginning or end of time will do that again

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Sounds like a justification of the practice of worshipping Mary rather than a rebuttal of the charge that she is worshipped.

Albion said:

My purpose was to show that your earlier dismissal of the possible worship of Mary merely by insisting that hyperdulia means something different from worship is open to question.

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My rebuttle to that was to show that the word worship originally included dulia and latria forms.

Albion said:

Sounds like a justification of the practice of worshipping Mary rather than a rebuttal of the charge that she is worshipped.

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It didn't cross my mind to justify worship of Mary. No one in my mind does that. The possibility that Catholics don't give to Mary what only belongs to God doesn't seem to enter your mind, but it does mine.

Eloy Craft said:

With all due respect, they don't worship things. You only know the strawman. I don't have to be told to study history. Superstition is deeply understood by them. You say inherent rule as if it's inherently evil. Take it from someone who does know what the real thing is. You judge what you don't know.

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Of course they do. Denying it doesn't change the facts. When they kiss the feet of a statue it is worship. When they say the Rosary or cross themselves as though it is a talisman or magic incantation it is superstition.

The whole of the Dark Ages was due to Roman Catholic rule and fosterIng superstition. No one is so blind as those who will not see.

Being a Calvinist I am very familiar with refuting straw men. For that reason I am very careful about building them myself.

All of my statements come from reading what Catholics teach themselves and from more than one conversation with them along with what my eyes obviously see.

As far as the worship of Mary goes it is a distinction without a difference. In reality most Catholics put her on a par with God.

Eloy Craft said:

My rebuttle to that was to show that the word worship originally included dulia and latria forms.

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Understood, but if the Catholic Church itself says--as it does--that both mean worship (and then proceed to argue that one kind of worship is more important than the other) it verifies the critics when they say that it's wrong to worship a deceased human.

It didn't cross my mind to justify worship of Mary. No one in my mind does that.

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Just saying that if one reads that reply, it looks more like an explanation for worshipping Mary than an explanation of why she is not worshipped.

Albion said:

Understood, but if the Catholic Church itself says--as it does--that both mean worship (and then proceed to argue that one kind of worship is more important than the other) it verifies the critics when they say that it's wrong to worship a deceased human.

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She isn't deceased. Martin Luther believed that the mother of Jesus was assumed to heaven body and soul. This reduction in the truth of Jesus' Mother is a historically recent phenomenon.

Albion said:

Just saying that if one reads that reply, it looks more like an explanation for worshipping Mary than an explanation of why she is not worshipped.

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I think that's because you don't believe a human person with a resurrected body in heaven exists except Jesus who is God. Catholics believe there is another who isn't God. They respond to them both appropriately. One as God and the other as the model Christian that gives hope for the future of all Christians. Because it's happened to her it raises hope for the rest of us. She is given the highest honor a human can receive. In the end, the truth of a person will be responded to as it is whether the other person in their presence wants it or not. All knees will bend. The queen of the south will rise and condemn and so forth.

Eloy Craft said:

She isn't deceased.

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When a human being experiences physical death, we normally say that they are deceased. You know this.

So...is there is anything more to be said about the practice of worshipping the Virgin Mary?

Albion said:

When a human being experiences physical death, we normally say that they are deceased. You know this.

So...is there is anything more to be said about the practice of worshipping the Virgin Mary?

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Did you read my post above? Your belief is not founded in what the Church has believed for more than a millenia. It isn't a deeper understanding of what was received. It is different belief that was never taught before. It is a different Gospel

Eloy Craft said:

Did you read my post above?

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Some of it.

Your belief is not founded in what the Church has believed for more than a millenia. el

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I lost interest when you started telling me what I believe.

I remain willing to discuss the worship of Mary (with emphasis on discuss).

Albion said:

I lost interest when you started telling me what I believe.

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I didn't tell you what you believe. You told me. That is just an ad hominem. That's fine. I know what that means too.

Albion said:

I remain willing to discuss the worship of Mary (with emphasis on discuss).

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It is apparent that you will not discuss the word worship in it's original form. Only in it's reduced modern vernacular or in the modern vulgar tongue. It's also apparent why. You can only accuse of idolatry if the word worship is used in it's vulgar form. Which is inaccurate historically and conceptually. If we can't agree on terms we can't discuss worship.

Eloy Craft said:

It is apparent that you will not discuss the word worship in it's original form. Only in it's reduced modern vernacular or in the modern vulgar tongue. If we can't agree on terms we can't discuss worship.

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Take it up with your church. As I pointed out twice, the Catholic Church itself says that hyperdulia is a form of worship (also verified by the dictionary), so the Catholic Church is admitting that Mary is indeed worshipped...but just not the same worship as is given to God.

To the critics, any worship of a saint or angel--or any being other than God--is wrong to engage in.

Albion said:

Take it up with your church. As I pointed out twice, the Catholic Church itself says that hyperdulia is a form of worship (also verified by the dictionary), so the Catholic Church is admitting that Mary is indeed worshipped...but just not the same worship as is given to God.

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First you acknowledge this.

Albion said:

To the critics, any worship of a saint or angel--or any being other than God--is wrong to engage in.

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Then you deny it.

Read it again.

Eloy Craft said:

The queen of the south will rise and condemn

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This is the verse you quote:

Matthew 12:42

You would suggest that the "queen of the south" refers to Mary? Please tell me I'm wrong.

The verse refers to this:

1 Kings 10

The queen of the south was the Queen of Sheba.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

You would suggest that the "queen of the south" refers to Mary? Please tell me I'm wrong.

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yes you are wrong. She is who Jesus was refering to. The queen of Sheba.

The priest does not turn his back.

Albion said:

Read it again.

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ok hasnt changed. You haven't addressed anything of my explanations. You have just made judgemental statements about them. And ignored them.

Eloy Craft said:

You have just made judgemental statements about them. And ignored them.

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The short explanation is that worship is worship. We (the critics) don't care if you have special terms to distinguish the worship of Mary from the worship of Christ. Either way, you worship Mary.



Call it what you like; I know what I see.