Why we should reject forgiveness culture

All4Christ · Feb 23, 2018

Forgiveness doesn’t mean that you release them from justice or from repercussions from what they did. It doesn’t mean that you are justifying the actions. It doesn’t mean excusing what they did or saying that it wasn’t wrong. It doesn’t mean we all come together and sing Kumbaya together.

Forgiveness means that you are releasing your hate or bitterness and you are asking God to have mercy on that person. It means letting go or your resentment. It means turning your cheek, and not returning hate with hate. A good practice to help with forgiveness is praying something like “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner, and forgive all those who hate me or do me harm.” (This essentially is what Christ did when He was crucified.) God will help us forgive for the healing of soul and body. It is much harder to forgive than it is to harbor anger or resentment with something so horrific.

You’ll have plenty of people pointing out Scriptures, and certainly I could do the same. (Honestly, there is nothing that states “do not forgive if the person doesn’t repent”.)

That said, for informational purposes, I’ll address the historical religious perspective of forgiveness (since you referenced a change of the understanding of forgiveness in the 18th century).

Abba Sisios

“A brother who was insulted by another brother came to the abba and said to him, “I was hurt, Abba, by my brother, and I wish to avenge myself.”

The abba tried to console him, and he said, “Do not do this, my child. Rather, leave vengeance to God.”

But he said, “I will not quit until I avenge myself.”

Then the abba said, “Let us pray, brother.” And, standing up, he proclaimed aloud, “Our Father, forgive us our trespasses just as we do not forgive those who trespass against us.”

And hearing these words, the brother fell at the feet of the teacher and said, “I am not going to fight with my brother any more. Forgive me!””

St. Philotheos:

“Do we forgive (he writes) our brothers their trespasses? God also forgives us in his mercy. Do we refuse to forgive? God, too, will refuse to forgive us. As we treat our neighbors, so will God treat us. Forgiveness, then, of your sins, or their unforgiveness, and hence also your salvation or your destruction, depends on you yourself, man. For without forgiveness of sins, there can be no real salvation. You can see for yourself just how terrible this is.”

This is a sampling of the historical understanding of forgiveness in early religious history.

JacksBratt · Feb 23, 2018

I think that one of the biggest mistakes that the legal system, in Canada and, I believe, the US, is that it changed it's outlook on the criminal.

I think this is what the OP was getting at...

The outlook changed from each person being responsible for their actions, needing punishment for their crime, then rehabilitation.

Then it changed to the attitude that society is responsible for creating the criminal. Thus, society has the responsibility for the criminal action and thus it is no longer punishment... just rehabilitation... Now Jails and Prisons are for "correction" of behavior.

This is absolutely the biggest reason for the overcrowding of our jails and prisons. There is no deterrent. For the hardened criminal or total rebellious of people, jail and prison is where they live with others like themselves. You and I would never survive in these places but to the criminal it is just another place of evil hierarchy.

As far as I'm concerned... the prison should be simple... a cell, a bed, a toilet, a sink, single cell showers with timed and guarded showering, . No internet, No getting an education on the tax payers dime, you can have any book you want, any news paper. Any trouble and you get your meals in your cell for a month. Yard time would also be removed if you did anything violent.

Oh ya... no voting in the federal, provincial or state elections.

Basically, you lose your rights of a free person. Want them back..... behave in a manner that shows that you can play nice.

JacksBratt · Feb 23, 2018

As for my view on forgiveness. If someone hasn't already said this... Forgiveness is not for the one who wronged me. Forgiveness is for me, the one who was wronged.

Forgiveness simply removes the responsibility for the hurt, from the person who hurt you.

If someone wrongs you, unforgiveness does not hurt them. Well, not everyone. Some will seek forgiveness. They are generally repentant and take responsibility for their wrong.

For the person who could give two rips for how you feel, forgiveness is smoke in the wind to them.

Forgiveness is for you. Unforgiveness is like you drinking poison and expecting the one who wronged you to die.

So, in cases like this, we go to our Lord and forgive that person or persons in God's eyes. It lifts the burden of hurt. Even if the one who wronged you could care less or is even aware..

We need to stop carrying around these burdens of unforgiveness. If someone has a good heart and seeks forgiveness, that's great. For those that are not of a good heart... don't carry that weight. Forgiveness frees the forgiver.

RaymondG · Feb 23, 2018

Forgive us our debts/trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. There is nothing wrong with you not forgiving...as long as you understand that you are not forgiven as well.

Like you said, everyone has a choice....and will face the consequences of their own choices.

S.O.J.I.A. · Feb 23, 2018

seems everyone here, including the OP, is confusing forgiving someone of wrongdoing with defending oneself from harm and the system of justice.

revenge and self defense are not the same thing and justice and forgiveness are not diametrically opposed.

A_Thinker · Feb 23, 2018

Any communication is a twofold endeavor. There must be a sender ... and a receiver.

I would argue that it is the same with forgiveness. Forgiveness requires someone to extend the offer of forgiveness ... and for the offender to repent and receive that forgiveness.

In emulation of His character, God has commanded his followers/children to EXTEND the offer of forgiveness to those who have wronged us in some way.

He also commands repentance for offenders.

Those who would forgive don't have the reponsibility of seeing that the offender repents, ... we only have the responsibility to extend the offer, ... as God, Himself, has done.

If offenders repent and accept forgiveness, then they effect forgiveness for themselves. Our responsibility is to offer ...

For those like the school shooter, God has ordained the governmental powers to deal out justice, despite any forgiveness given.

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. 2 Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4 For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.

Likewise, God calls upon His followers/children to forgo their own vengeance ... and to trust Him to even the scales. He says ... "Vengeance is Mine ... I will repay". We must trust that He will do what He has said.

As for us, ... we are to overcome "evil" with "good" ...

Romans 12

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

All4Christ · Feb 23, 2018

A_Thinker said:
Any communication is a twofold endeavor. There must be a sender ... and a receiver.

I would argue that it is the same with forgiveness. Forgiveness requires someone to extend the offer of forgiveness ... and for the offender to repent and receive that forgiveness.

In emulation of His character, God has commanded his followers/children to EXTEND the offer of forgiveness to those who have wronged us in some way.

He also commands repentance for offenders.

Those who would forgive don't have the reponsibility of seeing that the offender repents, ... we only have the responsibility to extend the offer, ... as God, Himself, has done.

If offenders repent and accept forgiveness, then they effect forgiveness for themselves. Our responsibility is to offer ...

For those like the school shooter, God has ordained the governmental powers to deal out justice, despite any forgiveness given.

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. 2 Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4 For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.

Likewise, God calls upon His followers/children to forgo their own vengeance ... and to trust Him to even the scales. He says ... "Vengeance is Mine ... I will repay". We must trust that He will do what He has said.

As for us, ... we are to overcome "evil" with "good" ...

Romans 12

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Agreed. God extends His forgiveness to us all, but we still need to accept it to have the forgiveness take action spiritually. We extend our forgiveness - which helps to heal us spiritually - but they need to accept it. We’ve done what we are called to do when we give that forgiveness. Extending the forgiveness helps us let go of the anger, resentment and bitterness. Just like the gift of salvation - we can refuse to accept that forgiveness, or we can repent and that forgiveness becomes efficacious. Extending the forgiveness is for the spiritual and emotional benefit of the person who was hurt. Accepting that forgiveness helps the person who hurt or sinned against the other person.

GirdYourLoins · Feb 23, 2018

My view is similar to other people on here in that forgiveness helps us more than the offender. I dont even view it as forgiving someone any more. I now view it as letting go of unforgiveness. By holding onto it we are holding onto something that is negative and will eat away at us.

Forgiving someone for their crime does not mean you dont punish them for it. What it does mean is that when you punish them the punishment is appropriate and not influenced by your unforgiveness.

Skyguy8068 · Feb 23, 2018

HisPrincess710 said:
Some Christians will say that it does though. There are Christians who say forgiveness means absolving responsibility. There's so much confusion about forgiveness because people don't want to be uncomfortable and don't want to deal effectively with the evil in this world.

It is clear that God does not forgive without repentance. This doctrine is taught in a number of texts. For example, in Luke 13:3 Jesus says, “unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” In Mark 1:15 John the Baptist commands that we must “repent and believe the Gospel.” The connection between repentance and forgiveness of sins (i.e. “salvation”) is seen throughout the Scriptures. For example, in Acts 2:38 repentance is directly connected as a condition for the remission of sins. For additional examples of this connection see Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 24:45-49; Acts 3:19; 8:22; 17:30-31; Romans 2:4-5; II Corinthians 7:10; II Tim. 2:25-26.

Since we are to be imitators of God and forgive in the same way God forgives, we would expect the Scriptures to be consistent, stating that the condition of repentance is required to be fulfilled before believers are required to forgive each other’s sins. It does.

Jesus stated in Luke 17:3, “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.” Here, the meaning is clear. The word “if” (Grk. ean) introduces the condition for a rebuke and for granting forgiveness. If (subjunctive) a person sins, we must (imperative) rebuke him, and if (subjunctive) he repents, we must (imperative) forgive him. This is as clear a statement as you will find on the subject. Forgiveness is conditioned upon repentance—and this is one of the same criteria that God requires before He forgives sin.

The doctrine of Hell is a sufficient proof of the lack of universal forgiveness by God.

Skyguy8068 · Feb 23, 2018

I don’t disagree with HisPrincess710. The scripture quoted pretty much supports her interpretation.

I am having a small problem reconciling “withholding forgiveness” with what Jesus told Peter in Matthew.

Matthew 18:21-23 NIV
[21] Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” [22] Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. [23] “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.

Jesus’ parable is describing what it’s going to be like on judgement day, so it’s God who decides who is forgiven or not forgiven. This harmonizes with what the Hebrew writer says.

Hebrews 10:26-30 NIV
[26] If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, [27] but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. [28] Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [29] How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? [30] For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

Don’t mistake my interpretation with someone who is naive and thinks that we are excused from not being prepared. Timothy teaches us as much in his first letter.

1 Timothy 5:8 NIV
[8] Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

This is strong language and warns us against not being prepared. “Provide for” in context is defined as “making preparations for” not just in consideration of material provisions.

Forgiveness is a heart issue not a head issue. We can forgive an unfaithful spouse, whether they repent or not. It’s likely that the unfaithfulness is ever forgotten, but it is with the heart that second chances happen and healing takes place. And healing happens on both sides; the ones who’s hurt and the one doing the hurting. This concept is illustrated in Proverbs and we’re reminded again in Romans.

Proverbs 25:21-22 NIV
[21] If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. [22] In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the Lord will reward you.

Romans 12:17-21 NIV
[17] Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. [18] If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. [19] Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. [20] On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” [21] Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

It’s not under our authority to not forgive. That is God’s job and His alone.

CallofChrist · Feb 23, 2018

47 And when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

48 And all the multitudes that came together to this sight, when they beheld the things that were done, returned smiting their breasts.

Beating the breast is an indication of repentance: Luke 18: 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’

That multitude must have realized a great injustice was done.
====

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

JacksBratt · Feb 23, 2018

A_Thinker said:
Any communication is a twofold endeavor. There must be a sender ... and a receiver.

I would argue that it is the same with forgiveness. Forgiveness requires someone to extend the offer of forgiveness ... and for the offender to repent and receive that forgiveness.

In emulation of His character, God has commanded his followers/children to EXTEND the offer of forgiveness to those who have wronged us in some way.

He also commands repentance for offenders.

Those who would forgive don't have the reponsibility of seeing that the offender repents, ... we only have the responsibility to extend the offer, ... as God, Himself, has done.

If offenders repent and accept forgiveness, then they effect forgiveness for themselves. Our responsibility is to offer ...

For those like the school shooter, God has ordained the governmental powers to deal out justice, despite any forgiveness given.

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. 2 Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4 For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.

Likewise, God calls upon His followers/children to forgo their own vengeance ... and to trust Him to even the scales. He says ... "Vengeance is Mine ... I will repay". We must trust that He will do what He has said.

As for us, ... we are to overcome "evil" with "good" ...

Romans 12

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I agree that vengeance is the Lords.

However, there is also the laws of men that are necessary in order to keep the peace and protect the innocent.

When we sin, even though we are forgiven of that sin, by God, and will have eternal life... It does not save us from the consequences, here on earth, from these sins.

Promiscuous sexual behavior will bring STD's and the mental callousness of straying from God's plan.

Adultery will hurt both you, your partner and your children. This will all snowball into actions and events down the road. Not to mention the hurt, anger and effects on our health due to the stress.

Dishonesty at work can lead to job loss or, if people know you are a Christian, it can be a stumbling block to those who still hold Christianity as an option or are considering it.

You can run through any number of sins and it still comes up the same..

"choose to sin, choose to suffer"

It' too bad that others, besides the sinner, also suffer for the actions of another.

So, yes, the governments of our states, provinces, municipalities, countries, have an obligation to hold offenders to the letter of the laws made by men.

Forgiveness is an important action for the victim and for the guilty. Sometimes, however, there still needs to be consequences outside of the repentance and accepting of responsibility, by the offender.

JacksBratt · Feb 23, 2018

I think it is important to remember that whatever metric we use to judge those who offend us in our lives... that is the metric that Christ will use to judge us.

If you are a soft hearted person, forgiving easily and letting bygones be bygones, all the while being congestive of this and not being taken advantage of but generally not holding grudges and understanding that people mess up from time to time....
This is how Christ will judge your actions.

If you are a hard nosed calloused person where everyone must pay for even the smallest infraction against you or yours... you have a hard line and forgiveness is by strict rules and regulations... holding all strictly accountable till they have made it right by your rigid standards of conduct.... well.... be prepared. Christ will also hold you to your rigid rules and regulations...at your judgement.

Tolworth John · Feb 23, 2018

Luke 17:3+4 "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them."

Seems pretty clear cut to me. The offender says sorry and we forgive them.

RaymondG · Feb 23, 2018

Tolworth John said:
Luke 17:3+4 "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them."

Seems pretty clear cut to me. The offender says sorry and we forgive them.

And "if they repent......" Does your view of repent wholly entails saying "Im sorry?" Does one only have to say "im sorry?" or do they have to BE sorry? Is it possible for anyone outside of God to know if one truly has a change of heart?

If not, then maybe this verse is only being used because if seems like it affirms the thoughts of those who dont want to forgive.......but maybe it is saying something else.

Tolworth John · Feb 23, 2018

RaymondG said:
And "if they repent......" Does your view of repent wholly entails saying "Im sorry?" Does one only have to say "im sorry?" or do they have to BE sorry? Is it possible for anyone outside of God to know if one truly has a change of heart?

If not, then maybe this verse is only being used because if seems like it affirms the thoughts of those who dont want to forgive.......but maybe it is saying something else.

Lets be topical.
Do you think any Christian parents at the latest school shooting should stand up and say I forgive the killer of my child?

I don't.
I think they should pray to God that he willhave mercy on the killer of their child.
If he stands up in court and admits his guilt and makes an honest confession of his wrong action and ask that the relatives forgive him.
Then yes the Christian parents should forgive him.

But it will be there call, they will decide whether his repentance is heartfelt or whether it is a pr stunt.

The problem with saying that Christians must always forgive when there is no indication of any remorse or sorrow for the action.
Is the enormous load it places on people who are already hurting.

The example we should follow is Jesus. He prayed Father forgive them. Not I forgive he handed his killers over to God. Did God forgive? Well Peter in his sermon was clear he hadn't as he stated 'Thid Jeus, who you killed!' Not much forgiveness there.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 23, 2018

HisPrincess710 said:
I am not embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I'm ashamed of Christ. I'm embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I supposedly have the same faith as the people who insist that we be doormats.

Given the recent mass shootings we've been dealing with in the last few years, we as Christians need to remind ourselves that it's not just Satan who makes this world evil, there are also evil people in this world. People who do not have a conscience and do not want forgiveness. I'm not going to hesitate to call what this man did as murder and child killing, and neither should you. Evil is evil, and there is no excuse for it, none. I don't care what this man went through that "drove" him to do this. There is ALWAYS a choice, and he made his choice.

How about this for a news flash? NO ONE can MAKE you do ANYTHING. NO ONE. People CHOOSE to murder and rape and rob and torture and abuse. It is ALWAYS a choice. ALWAYS. Saying it's due to one thing or another is to absolve people like this murderer of their responsibility, which the Bible says we are to hold them to.

I hate it, honestly hate it, when people are quick to forgive. Forgiveness NEVER comes without REPENTANCE. I know that because I read my bible. Only when people REPENT can they be forgiven. And I'm not just talking about saying "I'm sorry." I'm talking about literally begging and actively changing their lives around. Only then can things be made right and the people left in the wake of destruction have any kind of relief.

You can challenge me all you want, but I will be ready with a biblical response. The bible tells us that people who do evil things are without excuse. Some may ask for forgiveness, and some don't, because they don't want it. Forgiveness is not a right, it's not a demand to be made, it's not a commodity. And in a culture that stigmatizes those who refuse to forgive, the added stress can lead to poorer health and slower recovery.

It may well be true that "Forgiveness sets you free." However, the idea of forgiveness as a psychological or emotional condition traces to 18th-century moral philosophy, not first-century Christian writings. Forgiveness in the time of Jesus was an action verb, and Jesus's instructions served as checks for the health of the community, both on earth and in the world to come. There is nothing in the Bible that says that forgiveness is good for the physical or mental health of the forgiver. It is anachronistic to suggest otherwise.

Our job as Christians is not to walk eggshells around people like this but to stand with their victims and be there for them. That means praying that the murderer might come to repentance. I'm not going to be nice to people who blame other people for their problems by murdering their families and children. Satan may be evil, but there are also evil people. There are people who do not have a heart and do not want forgiveness.

All we can do is pray that we start taking evil more seriously when we see it. Jesus didn't walk eggshells around evil, and neither should we. If we do, then we'll only be part of the problem. Unconditional forgiveness is not biblical or compassionate. It lets the murderer think they can get away with whatever they want and not have consequences.

I sincerely pray that this man who killed all of these children come to realize the terrible, barbaric, and evil thing he did. I also sincerely pray that we look more deeply into our bibles and start following what it says regarding the oppressed and those who do them wrong.

Matthew 6:15 says if we don’t forgive, we will not be forgiven. Also, Jesus says in Matthew 5 to pray and do good towards our enemies instead of hating them.

RaymondG · Feb 23, 2018

Tolworth John said:
Lets be topical.
Do you think any Christian parents at the latest school shooting should stand up and say I forgive the killer of my child?

I don't.
I think they should pray to God that he willhave mercy on the killer of their child.
If he stands up in court and admits his guilt and makes an honest confession of his wrong action and ask that the relatives forgive him.
Then yes the Christian parents should forgive him.

But it will be there call, they will decide whether his repentance is heartfelt or whether it is a pr stunt.

The problem with saying that Christians must always forgive when there is no indication of any remorse or sorrow for the action.
Is the enormous load it places on people who are already hurting.

The example we should follow is Jesus. He prayed Father forgive them. Not I forgive he handed his killers over to God. Did God forgive? Well Peter in his sermon was clear he hadn't as he stated 'Thid Jeus, who you killed!' Not much forgiveness there.

Extremes are usually used to push listening towards ones own view, and not to the truth. They are last ditch efforts to win over the minds of the weak and those on the fence.

I mentioned that what someone says means nothing....so why would I believe anyone should stand up and say anything? They should grieve and allow God to wipe their tears away. Their sorrow for the lose of their loved ones should not be mixed up and confused with the feelings or idea of the killers.

After they grieve their lose....they can proceed to have anger for the killer, which in time will kill themselves. Or they can let it go and be free and live. Forgiveness lets go of the hate and the anger and the stress.....it doesnt make a judgement of right or wrong, it doesn't cause you to forget the incident.... It, instead, frees you from the hurt and the pain. Now why wouldn't I want the families of the victims to have less pain?

dqhall · Feb 23, 2018

HisPrincess710 said:
I am not embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I'm ashamed of Christ. I'm embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I supposedly have the same faith as the people who insist that we be doormats.

Given the recent mass shootings we've been dealing with in the last few years, we as Christians need to remind ourselves that it's not just Satan who makes this world evil, there are also evil people in this world. People who do not have a conscience and do not want forgiveness. I'm not going to hesitate to call what this man did as murder and child killing, and neither should you. Evil is evil, and there is no excuse for it, none. I don't care what this man went through that "drove" him to do this. There is ALWAYS a choice, and he made his choice.

How about this for a news flash? NO ONE can MAKE you do ANYTHING. NO ONE. People CHOOSE to murder and rape and rob and torture and abuse. It is ALWAYS a choice. ALWAYS. Saying it's due to one thing or another is to absolve people like this murderer of their responsibility, which the Bible says we are to hold them to.

I hate it, honestly hate it, when people are quick to forgive. Forgiveness NEVER comes without REPENTANCE. I know that because I read my bible. Only when people REPENT can they be forgiven. And I'm not just talking about saying "I'm sorry." I'm talking about literally begging and actively changing their lives around. Only then can things be made right and the people left in the wake of destruction have any kind of relief.

You can challenge me all you want, but I will be ready with a biblical response. The bible tells us that people who do evil things are without excuse. Some may ask for forgiveness, and some don't, because they don't want it. Forgiveness is not a right, it's not a demand to be made, it's not a commodity. And in a culture that stigmatizes those who refuse to forgive, the added stress can lead to poorer health and slower recovery.

It may well be true that "Forgiveness sets you free." However, the idea of forgiveness as a psychological or emotional condition traces to 18th-century moral philosophy, not first-century Christian writings. Forgiveness in the time of Jesus was an action verb, and Jesus's instructions served as checks for the health of the community, both on earth and in the world to come. There is nothing in the Bible that says that forgiveness is good for the physical or mental health of the forgiver. It is anachronistic to suggest otherwise.

Our job as Christians is not to walk eggshells around people like this but to stand with their victims and be there for them. That means praying that the murderer might come to repentance. I'm not going to be nice to people who blame other people for their problems by murdering their families and children. Satan may be evil, but there are also evil people. There are people who do not have a heart and do not want forgiveness.

All we can do is pray that we start taking evil more seriously when we see it. Jesus didn't walk eggshells around evil, and neither should we. If we do, then we'll only be part of the problem. Unconditional forgiveness is not biblical or compassionate. It lets the murderer think they can get away with whatever they want and not have consequences.

I sincerely pray that this man who killed all of these children come to realize the terrible, barbaric, and evil thing he did. I also sincerely pray that we look more deeply into our bibles and start following what it says regarding the oppressed and those who do them wrong.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Wars raged when people wanted revenge killings. Cities were leveled by angry people. There was starvation and chaos without forgiveness.

Britain does not allow the sale of semi-automatic weapons. Their murder rate is 30 times lower than the murder rate (per capita) in the US. Thirty five people will killed during a mass shooting in Australia during 1996. They banned automatic guns, semiautomatic guns and some shotguns. There has not been a mass shooting in Australia since then.

I do not want to be the NRA's doormat.

ViaCrucis · Feb 23, 2018

HisPrincess710 said:
I knew you were going to bring this up.

Jesus was talking about those who did NOT know what they were doing. People like the Roman soldier who eventually came to realize that Jesus was the Son of God. The Pharisees on the other hand, KNEW who Jesus was, and they hated him. They KNEW he was the Son of God, yet they chose to kill him.

Jesus was forgiving them too.

Because that's who God is, God is the God of forgiveness. God is the God who throws Himself away, in love, to the humility, humiliation, and shame of the cross.

God didn't say, "You have to earn my forgiveness", no, God forgives us--that's what He does in Jesus, for the whole world. You are forgiven, not because you asked for it, but because God freely forgives you all your sins by His choice, His act, in the life, suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ.

Which is precisely why we are called to forgive, to freely forgive.

If you read your Bible like you say you do, then you should know this. Because this is the precious heart and soul of the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

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