Why we should reject forgiveness culture

Well spoken, and I'll review this again, though I know we can gain by forgiving even anyone, such as departed person we held a grudge against. A long time enemy, with mutual grudges....one can take the first step ( "love your enemy").

Yes. But our best course is to forgive, and I learned i can pray for aid when needed.

That's a good prayer.

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven...

...He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

HisPrincess710 said:

I am not embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I'm ashamed of Christ. I'm embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I supposedly have the same faith as the people who insist that we be doormats.

Given the recent mass shootings we've been dealing with in the last few years, we as Christians need to remind ourselves that it's not just Satan who makes this world evil, there are also evil people in this world. People who do not have a conscience and do not want forgiveness. I'm not going to hesitate to call what this man did as murder and child killing, and neither should you. Evil is evil, and there is no excuse for it, none. I don't care what this man went through that "drove" him to do this. There is ALWAYS a choice, and he made his choice.

How about this for a news flash? NO ONE can MAKE you do ANYTHING. NO ONE. People CHOOSE to murder and rape and rob and torture and abuse. It is ALWAYS a choice. ALWAYS. Saying it's due to one thing or another is to absolve people like this murderer of their responsibility, which the Bible says we are to hold them to.

I hate it, honestly hate it, when people are quick to forgive. Forgiveness NEVER comes without REPENTANCE. I know that because I read my bible. Only when people REPENT can they be forgiven. And I'm not just talking about saying "I'm sorry." I'm talking about literally begging and actively changing their lives around. Only then can things be made right and the people left in the wake of destruction have any kind of relief.

You can challenge me all you want, but I will be ready with a biblical response. The bible tells us that people who do evil things are without excuse. Some may ask for forgiveness, and some don't, because they don't want it. Forgiveness is not a right, it's not a demand to be made, it's not a commodity. And in a culture that stigmatizes those who refuse to forgive, the added stress can lead to poorer health and slower recovery.

It may well be true that "Forgiveness sets you free." However, the idea of forgiveness as a psychological or emotional condition traces to 18th-century moral philosophy, not first-century Christian writings. Forgiveness in the time of Jesus was an action verb, and Jesus's instructions served as checks for the health of the community, both on earth and in the world to come. There is nothing in the Bible that says that forgiveness is good for the physical or mental health of the forgiver. It is anachronistic to suggest otherwise.

Our job as Christians is not to walk eggshells around people like this but to stand with their victims and be there for them. That means praying that the murderer might come to repentance. I'm not going to be nice to people who blame other people for their problems by murdering their families and children. Satan may be evil, but there are also evil people. There are people who do not have a heart and do not want forgiveness.

All we can do is pray that we start taking evil more seriously when we see it. Jesus didn't walk eggshells around evil, and neither should we. If we do, then we'll only be part of the problem. Unconditional forgiveness is not biblical or compassionate. It lets the murderer think they can get away with whatever they want and not have consequences.

I sincerely pray that this man who killed all of these children come to realize the terrible, barbaric, and evil thing he did. I also sincerely pray that we look more deeply into our bibles and start following what it says regarding the oppressed and those who do them wrong.

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....yessss that uh to chill because vengeance is the Lords (Romans 12:19)...and that the evil men will not go unpunished? (Proverbs 11:21).

So just trust God on those promises, and not get too carried away with emotions like the world as of one with no hope. Hope is right here.

That's not to say that we should not wish justice on this Earth, but not to have a heart that is vengeful, for we are not battling against flesh and blood, remember the true adversary. If possible, live in peace with everyone(Romans 12:18-21).Be aware that when you sin, punishment also goes on you (Job 10:14), humble yourself, and have compassion for your enemies such as your Heavenly Father show mercy on your everyday (Matthew 6:12-15).

If Jesus was able to go about peacefully with Judas, the guy who He KNEW would play a huge part to His crucifixion, I think we can also go about striving to bring peace to situations whenever we can.

You may have gotten something wrong. Forgiveness is not the same as being a doormat. Forgiveness is holding no ill will against the person who trespassed against you. It does not mean you are to forget or reconcile with the person.
Unforgiveness causes hardness of heart. You will be filled with negative emotions, thus losing sight of God. Imagine a scenario, where a relative got murdered. You are fully expected to go to court for it, to prevent further damage from this person and in the hope of the person coming around and repenting. However, if you are filled with anger towards that person, unable to let go, you may go beyond what is necessary and either go for a personal revenge or demand a punishment that is way to severe, like death penalty (I do not want to trigger a political discussion, it is just my opinion that the death penalty is not a Christian thing to do as it robs the person of the opportunity to repent and come to God). Whether you reconcile with the trespasser or whether you take legal action or not is a different question. The question of forgiveness is all about expelling negative emotions and finding personal peace. Ever read Homer’s Iliad? Spoiler: Achilles could only find peace in forgiveness. It is such a powerful thing to do, but it is being downplayed as weakness in our society, probably because so few are capable of doing it. Remember: to err is human, to forgive, divine.

Repentance is something else. Both forgiveness and repentance lead to the possibility of reconciliation. You can forgive even if the other person does not repent, but this means that you’ll leave the person and the issue behind yourself. Dwelling on it and wallow in unforgiveness until a person repents will only harm you. Remember to make the important distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation.

The whole “there is no absolute forgiveness, because there is hell” thing is not because God does not forgive. It is because the person in question denied His forgiveness and does not receive it. Yes, we are all guilty and the truth of the matter is, no matter what we do, we can not repent sufficiently, because we are of the flesh and thus more evil than good. However, we have an advocate in Christ. If we deny Christ, we deny the gift of forgiveness and salvation. We can not earn our way to heaven. We are too busted up for that. Repentance is a sign of submission to God, not payment for crimes committed. Christ paid that already.

As for the doormat issue, I believe it is dependant on the situation. I do not recall John being a doormat. In fact, we was so adamant, that it got him into prison. I do not recall the apostles being doormats. They were strong personalities and got killed for that. I do also recall Jesus doing an armed assault on the merchants in the church. You see, turning the other cheek is utterly genius. How often has returning an evil deed ended in conflict? How often do things escalate when insisting on one’s own right? Sometimes it is better to take a hit but avoid confrontation.
However, it does not mean we are to be doormats. If a person cuts the line, do you let it go? No. You will intervene and tell the person what he is doing is not correct. However, you will not repay the person by cutting infront yourself. That would trigger a spiral of conflict. No, you will speak up and if the person chooses to ignore it, then the blame is on him and everyone will know it in this case, especially God. If he hears it and repents or if it was a misunderstanding, you may have gained a friend. Same goes for legal actions. We ought to obey authorities and do our part to keep peace, so we report crimes. But we do not take vengeance ourselves. Will I tackle a thief? You bet. But then what? If the thief seems repentant and asks for forgiveness, I may even let it go. It also depends on why the thief stole something. Was if greed or does he need it to survive? It all depends on the situation. But if conscience does not convict me, I will have no issue reporting the person. However, I will not steal something in return or hurt the person for that.

This is a tricky topic, one that we could talk about for ages. In the end, your conscience matters. Every situation is unique. Beware that your trains of thought will not cause a hardness of heart in you and that you will not become oblivious to unconditional love and compassion. Remember, an eye for an eye will lead to the whole world becoming blind. Someone’s got to take a hit for the team.

Finally, I want to leave you with, in my opinion, the most powerful scene from the book/play/movie Les Miserables. Valjean steals silver from the priest, but when caught, the priest spares him and claims that the silver was a gift. Such compassion really got to Valjean, to a point where he abadoned his former life and became an amazing person. THAT is the power of forgiveness!

It is not wrong to want to try to understand someone's motivations. That doesn't negate the harm that they caused.

Every human being is made in the image of God. Without exception. People can do evil things but that doesn't necessarily make them evil.

HisPrincess710 said:

I am not embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I'm ashamed of Christ. I'm embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I supposedly have the same faith as the people who insist that we be doormats.

Given the recent mass shootings we've been dealing with in the last few years, we as Christians need to remind ourselves that it's not just Satan who makes this world evil, there are also evil people in this world. People who do not have a conscience and do not want forgiveness. I'm not going to hesitate to call what this man did as murder and child killing, and neither should you. Evil is evil, and there is no excuse for it, none. I don't care what this man went through that "drove" him to do this. There is ALWAYS a choice, and he made his choice.

How about this for a news flash? NO ONE can MAKE you do ANYTHING. NO ONE. People CHOOSE to murder and rape and rob and torture and abuse. It is ALWAYS a choice. ALWAYS. Saying it's due to one thing or another is to absolve people like this murderer of their responsibility, which the Bible says we are to hold them to.

I hate it, honestly hate it, when people are quick to forgive. Forgiveness NEVER comes without REPENTANCE. I know that because I read my bible. Only when people REPENT can they be forgiven. And I'm not just talking about saying "I'm sorry." I'm talking about literally begging and actively changing their lives around. Only then can things be made right and the people left in the wake of destruction have any kind of relief.

You can challenge me all you want, but I will be ready with a biblical response. The bible tells us that people who do evil things are without excuse. Some may ask for forgiveness, and some don't, because they don't want it. Forgiveness is not a right, it's not a demand to be made, it's not a commodity. And in a culture that stigmatizes those who refuse to forgive, the added stress can lead to poorer health and slower recovery.

It may well be true that "Forgiveness sets you free." However, the idea of forgiveness as a psychological or emotional condition traces to 18th-century moral philosophy, not first-century Christian writings. Forgiveness in the time of Jesus was an action verb, and Jesus's instructions served as checks for the health of the community, both on earth and in the world to come. There is nothing in the Bible that says that forgiveness is good for the physical or mental health of the forgiver. It is anachronistic to suggest otherwise.

Our job as Christians is not to walk eggshells around people like this but to stand with their victims and be there for them. That means praying that the murderer might come to repentance. I'm not going to be nice to people who blame other people for their problems by murdering their families and children. Satan may be evil, but there are also evil people. There are people who do not have a heart and do not want forgiveness.

All we can do is pray that we start taking evil more seriously when we see it. Jesus didn't walk eggshells around evil, and neither should we. If we do, then we'll only be part of the problem. Unconditional forgiveness is not biblical or compassionate. It lets the murderer think they can get away with whatever they want and not have consequences.

I sincerely pray that this man who killed all of these children come to realize the terrible, barbaric, and evil thing he did. I also sincerely pray that we look more deeply into our bibles and start following what it says regarding the oppressed and those who do them wrong.

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Indeed, the killer will face justice and should only be forgiven if he repents. However, his repentance will not alter his crime and will still have to face the consequences (like King David). But if he repents his sin of murder is forgiven (like David). Christians aren't doormats. Peace in Christ .

I completely agree with you. Biblical forgiveness does not mean tolerance. There is no excuse for sin, and especially not unrepented sin. And repentance does not mean saying I'm sorry and then sinning again, thinking you'll get away with it. There is no forgiveness unless you turn from your sins and to God's ways.

Jesus didn't die so we could learn how to excuse sin.

Sounds to me like someone who is angry and holds grudges and therefore decides forgiveness is to be rejected.

HisPrincess710 said:

The doctrine of Hell is a sufficient proof of the lack of universal forgiveness by God.

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Not so! It is the "proof" of forgiveness not accepted.

HisPrincess710 said:

I hate it, honestly hate it, when people are quick to forgive. Forgiveness NEVER comes without REPENTANCE. I know that because I read my bible. Only when people REPENT can they be forgiven.

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Phil 1:21 said:

I wouldn't say never.

"32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." Luke 23:31-34

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Yes, but only the repentant criminal was actually forgiven by the Father, ie the unrepentant and unbelieving criminal was not forgiven by the Father. (Jesus prayed and the Father later answered = we pray and God will answer according to His will, ie not according to our will) ...
....
.......
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

.
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MATTHEW.4:17 = From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

HisPrincess710 said:

Jesus was talking about those who did NOT know what they were doing.

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HisPrincess710 said:

There is ALWAYS a choice, and he made his choice.

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Those soldiers who nailed Jesus to the cross knew that they were nailing him to a cross. They knew they were killing an innocent man - Pilate had pronounced him innocent - and no one there that morning could ignore the fact that it was the mob that cried "crucify him" "crucify him." These soldiers knew that a terrorist had been set free instead of this innocent man, because Barabas was held in custody by those same soldier and he was apparently due to die that day.

So they knew these facts. And as you yourself wrote, Princess, there is ALWAYS a choice, and they also had a choice - a choice that was set in motion years before. Those facts of them killing an innocent man, I would submit, is not what he was refering to when he desribed them as not knowing what they did.

Luke 5:21
And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Princess, you and I in ourselves, have no authority to forgive sins. You and I have no authority to demand repentance, because we are ourselves sinners. When we point our finger at someone else, we have three pointing back at ourselves.

So probably we have no right to pontificate about forgiveness? For anyone reading this thread I can recommend reading Miroslav Volf's book "Free of Charge" which is about 'giving and forgiving in a culture stripped of grace.' It turns out forgiveness is much more complicated than it seems. In this book Volf explains his understanding of our part/role (as Christians) in forgiveness.

If you want to go to the follow-up steps I suggest Alexander Venter's "Doing Reconciliation." This is a particularly vital book as it is set in the very real world of apartheid and post-apartheid South Africa.

HisPrincess710 said:

I'm embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I supposedly have the same faith as the people who insist that we be doormats.

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Muslims have a similar view to that expressed in your post. Perhaps you have more in common with Muslims than you thought.

What is this..
He who is without sin cast the first stone, can you cast a stone? Forgive.
All we have to offer God is filthy rags for our deeds, are yours any cleaner than this school shooter? Forgive.
We are called to love God then our neighbors, he isn't your neighbor? Forgive.

I forgive him for his actions and have sympathy for him. He committed murder and I trust his judgment to God. I'm not a doormat for forgiving this person, in fact it places me in a much higher position because his actions no longer effect me negatively.

I believe his actions are already in prophecy, for the end times will be like the days of Noah. Filled with violence and hate, let God take care of the sins of man.. My place and your is to simply forgive.
This individual will only repent for the glory of God, I will forgive for the glory of God.

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due.

35 So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you, if ye forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.