Why we should reject forgiveness culture

HisPrincess710 · Feb 22, 2018

I am not embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I'm ashamed of Christ. I'm embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I supposedly have the same faith as the people who insist that we be doormats.

Given the recent mass shootings we've been dealing with in the last few years, we as Christians need to remind ourselves that it's not just Satan who makes this world evil, there are also evil people in this world. People who do not have a conscience and do not want forgiveness. I'm not going to hesitate to call what this man did as murder and child killing, and neither should you. Evil is evil, and there is no excuse for it, none. I don't care what this man went through that "drove" him to do this. There is ALWAYS a choice, and he made his choice.

How about this for a news flash? NO ONE can MAKE you do ANYTHING. NO ONE. People CHOOSE to murder and rape and rob and torture and abuse. It is ALWAYS a choice. ALWAYS. Saying it's due to one thing or another is to absolve people like this murderer of their responsibility, which the Bible says we are to hold them to.

I hate it, honestly hate it, when people are quick to forgive. Forgiveness NEVER comes without REPENTANCE. I know that because I read my bible. Only when people REPENT can they be forgiven. And I'm not just talking about saying "I'm sorry." I'm talking about literally begging and actively changing their lives around. Only then can things be made right and the people left in the wake of destruction have any kind of relief.

You can challenge me all you want, but I will be ready with a biblical response. The bible tells us that people who do evil things are without excuse. Some may ask for forgiveness, and some don't, because they don't want it. Forgiveness is not a right, it's not a demand to be made, it's not a commodity. And in a culture that stigmatizes those who refuse to forgive, the added stress can lead to poorer health and slower recovery.

It may well be true that "Forgiveness sets you free." However, the idea of forgiveness as a psychological or emotional condition traces to 18th-century moral philosophy, not first-century Christian writings. Forgiveness in the time of Jesus was an action verb, and Jesus's instructions served as checks for the health of the community, both on earth and in the world to come. There is nothing in the Bible that says that forgiveness is good for the physical or mental health of the forgiver. It is anachronistic to suggest otherwise.

Our job as Christians is not to walk eggshells around people like this but to stand with their victims and be there for them. That means praying that the murderer might come to repentance. I'm not going to be nice to people who blame other people for their problems by murdering their families and children. Satan may be evil, but there are also evil people. There are people who do not have a heart and do not want forgiveness.

All we can do is pray that we start taking evil more seriously when we see it. Jesus didn't walk eggshells around evil, and neither should we. If we do, then we'll only be part of the problem. Unconditional forgiveness is not biblical or compassionate. It lets the murderer think they can get away with whatever they want and not have consequences.

I sincerely pray that this man who killed all of these children come to realize the terrible, barbaric, and evil thing he did. I also sincerely pray that we look more deeply into our bibles and start following what it says regarding the oppressed and those who do them wrong.

Phil 1:21 · Feb 22, 2018

HisPrincess710 said:
I hate it, honestly hate it, when people are quick to forgive. Forgiveness NEVER comes without REPENTANCE. I know that because I read my bible. Only when people REPENT can they be forgiven.

I wouldn't say never.

"32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." Luke 23:31-34

HisPrincess710 · Feb 22, 2018

I knew you were going to bring this up.

Jesus was talking about those who did NOT know what they were doing. People like the Roman soldier who eventually came to realize that Jesus was the Son of God. The Pharisees on the other hand, KNEW who Jesus was, and they hated him. They KNEW he was the Son of God, yet they chose to kill him.

A_Thinker · Feb 22, 2018

HisPrincess710 said:
I am not embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I'm ashamed of Christ. I'm embarrassed to call myself a Christian because I supposedly have the same faith as the people who insist that we be doormats.

Given the recent mass shootings we've been dealing with in the last few years, we as Christians need to remind ourselves that it's not just Satan who makes this world evil, there are also evil people in this world. People who do not have a conscience and do not want forgiveness. I'm not going to hesitate to call what this man did as murder and child killing, and neither should you. Evil is evil, and there is no excuse for it, none. I don't care what this man went through that "drove" him to do this. There is ALWAYS a choice, and he made his choice.

How about this for a news flash? NO ONE can MAKE you do ANYTHING. NO ONE. People CHOOSE to murder and rape and rob and torture and abuse. It is ALWAYS a choice. ALWAYS. Saying it's due to one thing or another is to absolve people like this murderer of their responsibility, which the Bible says we are to hold them to.

I hate it, honestly hate it, when people are quick to forgive. Forgiveness NEVER comes without REPENTANCE. I know that because I read my bible. Only when people REPENT can they be forgiven. And I'm not just talking about saying "I'm sorry." I'm talking about literally begging and actively changing their lives around. Only then can things be made right and the people left in the wake of destruction have any kind of relief.

You can challenge me all you want, but I will be ready with a biblical response. The bible tells us that people who do evil things are without excuse. Some may ask for forgiveness, and some don't, because they don't want it. Forgiveness is not a right, it's not a demand to be made, it's not a commodity. And in a culture that stigmatizes those who refuse to forgive, the added stress can lead to poorer health and slower recovery.

It may well be true that "Forgiveness sets you free." However, the idea of forgiveness as a psychological or emotional condition traces to 18th-century moral philosophy, not first-century Christian writings. Forgiveness in the time of Jesus was an action verb, and Jesus's instructions served as checks for the health of the community, both on earth and in the world to come. There is nothing in the Bible that says that forgiveness is good for the physical or mental health of the forgiver. It is anachronistic to suggest otherwise.

Our job as Christians is not to walk eggshells around people like this but to stand with their victims and be there for them. That means praying that the murderer might come to repentance. I'm not going to be nice to people who blame other people for their problems by murdering their families and children. Satan may be evil, but there are also evil people. There are people who do not have a heart and do not want forgiveness.

All we can do is pray that we start taking evil more seriously when we see it. Jesus didn't walk eggshells around evil, and neither should we. If we do, then we'll only be part of the problem. Unconditional forgiveness is not biblical or compassionate. It lets the murderer think they can get away with whatever they want and not have consequences.

I sincerely pray that this man who killed all of these children come to realize the terrible, barbaric, and evil thing he did. I also sincerely pray that we look more deeply into our bibles and start following what it says regarding the oppressed and those who do them wrong.

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Do you think that Jesus, here, was only forgiving those who were repentant ?

Jesus says that "If we don't forgive others their sins against us, ... neither will our heavenly Father forgive our sins."

I believe that the imperative to forgive ... is based upon our call to act as God's children, who Himself issues unconditional forgiveness.

Romans 5:8 "But while we were still sinners, ... Christ died for us."

I think that the sticking point ... is that the unrepentant WON'T ACCEPT FORGIVENESS ... for they don't believe that they have anything to be forgiven for. Such is the case with all those who refuse to accept God's offer of forgiveness for their sins. So, then, THEY are NOT forgiven.

Now ... such forgiveness does not mean that miscreants will not have to pay for their crimes ... we can forgive them ... and still see justice done.

There are EVIL people in the world ...

HisPrincess710 · Feb 22, 2018

Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus teach that forgiveness should be offered unconditionally. In Matthew, Jesus says that church members should forgive each other “seventy times seven times” (18:22), a number that symbolizes boundlessness. However, even though he preaches boundless forgiveness, he does not indicate whether that forgiveness has conditions. “The author of the Gospel of Luke repeats the same story, but adds a condition to forgiveness, stating that church members must forgive boundlessly “if there is repentance” (17:3).

Further, in Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus warns his disciples that there is a sin that will not be forgiven: “Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10). Blasphemy (Greek: blasphemēo) means to speak against or slander. The meaning of “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” is open to interpretation, but it is clear that there is a sin that God will not forgive under any circumstances. If Jesus teaches unconditional forgiveness, then God must be exempt from that teaching.

Phil 1:21 · Feb 22, 2018

HisPrincess710 said:
I knew you were going to bring this up.

Then why did you incorrectly state that "Forgiveness NEVER comes without REPENTANCE"? In this case it did.

HisPrincess710 · Feb 22, 2018

No, it didn't.

Like I said, you can challenge me all you want but I will have a biblical response.

To begin with, it is interesting to note that the footnotes in the NIV, NLT, and NASB all state that many ancient manuscripts do not contain this sentence. Also, out of all four accounts of Jesus’ death in the four gospels, only Luke makes mention of this remark of Jesus’. It is interesting and perhaps relevant that none of the other apostles thought this was significant enough to mention in their otherwise meticulous recordings of Jesus’ teachings. If Jesus really said it, Luke might have included it simply to make sure his account of our Lord’s crucifixion was as complete as possible. The apostles who were there and witnessed Jesus’ death first hand were in a much better position to judge his intentions at the time than we are. They might not have all felt that this particular comment of our Lord’s was something he meant for them to document and pass down to us as a teaching. Therefore I believe we need to consider whether we might possibly be giving it more significance than Jesus intended. It is quite possible that he was simply admonishing the centurions in the way that we would say “God forgive you!” to someone who hurt us, and not intending it as a teaching for us after all. He could also have simply meant that they did not know they were killing the Son of God, and so could not understand the vast implications of that.

Also, even though it might be true that Jesus asked Father God to forgive those who crucified him, he didn’t say to them “I forgive you.” Although he could have if he wanted to, Jesus himself did not offer his own forgiveness to those who hurt him. Our Lord did not use this as a golden opportunity to set an example for us of forgiving the unrepentant. Even in his last words, Jesus did not give us any reason to think that he had forgiven his murderers.

The question of whether or not Father God actually forgave them despite their unrepentance is left unanswered and remains unknown to this day. There is absolutely no indication that the Lord did indeed forgive them and no reason to assume that he did. This would be nothing but pure unsubstantiated speculation.

Another interesting point is that three of the gospels make mention of the centurion’s and others’ reactions when Jesus died, the rocks moved, and the curtain of the temple was torn in two:

“When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified and exclaimed, ‘Surely he was the Son of God.’”…Matthew 27:54.

“And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!”….Mark 15: 39.

“The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.” When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away.”…Luke 23:47-48.

Could we not take this to mean that at least one, if not some or all, of those who killed Jesus realized what they had done and did in actuality repent? It certainly seems as if at least this one man did feel regret and remorse, or even horror that he had helped to kill the Son of God. If in fact any of those who killed Jesus praised God as Luke says and repented, then we know they were forgiven- BECAUSE they repented!

But in my opinion much of this is too deep to get into with those who challenge that repentance is a requirement for forgiveness. Some of those are just looking for an excuse to be entitled to forgiveness without changing their ways, they’re not looking for a complicated Bible study. Those whose eyes are veiled have no understanding and are just looking to debate everything in the Bible that is not completely spelled out so that they can pick it apart, twist it, and find flaws.

Halbhh · Feb 22, 2018

14 "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

I know as certainty I need that -- I need to forgive, because I need to be forgiven. When it's harder, I've prayed for help to change my heart, and because I prayed with belief help would come, it did, dramatically, and the very next time I saw the person (I prayed at night, and encountered them the very next day) my heart had already been changed, and the resentment was gone.

Phil 1:21 · Feb 22, 2018

HisPrincess710 said:
But in my opinion much of this is too deep to get into with those who challenge that repentance is a requirement for forgiveness. Some of those are just looking for an excuse to be entitled to forgiveness without changing their ways, they’re not looking for a complicated Bible study.

Or they're just looking to follow Christ's example, regardless of the eisegesis of someone trying to make a case against forgiving one's fellow man. Sister, I respect your passion here, but I'm going with God on this one. :amen:

Phil 1:21 · Feb 22, 2018

Halbhh said:
14 "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

I know as certainty I need that -- I need to forgive, because I need to be forgiven. When it's harder, I've prayed for help to change my heart, and because I prayed with belief help would come, it did, dramatically, and the very next time I saw the person (I prayed at night, and encountered them the very next day) my heart had already been changed, and the resentment was gone.

It is a wonderful experience isn't it, when God changes our hearts from resentment to genuine love for those who've wronged us? Every time I find it difficult to extend forgiveness I remember the forgiveness God gave me. We are blessed so that we may bless.

HisPrincess710 · Feb 22, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
It is a wonderful experience isn't it, when God changes our hearts from resentment to genuine love for those who've wronged us? Every time I find it difficult to extend forgiveness I remember the forgiveness God gave me. We are blessed so that we may bless.

I'm standing with God and his Word.

It's not loving to not point out evil. It's not loving to just stand by and just "pray" for victims of terrible crimes rather than actually being there for them. It's not loving that they demand they "forgive" the monster or they aren't real Christians.

Jesus certainly didn’t pull any punches when he called the Pharisees just about every name there was in the book at the time. Hypocrites, snakes, brood of vipers, unclean, greedy, whitewashed tombs full of dead men’s bones, blind fools, full of wickedness, sons of hell (Matthew 23: 13-33). He used the strongest possible language of his day to denounce them. He made an example of them. He spoke, not just directly to the Pharisees, but for the benefit of everyone else within earshot. Do you think the people who heard him got his point? Evil is evil. It is never un-Christian-like to tell the truth, nor is it unChristian-like to use strong language when you tell it.

HisPrincess710 · Feb 22, 2018

Halbhh said:
14 "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

I know as certainty I need that -- I need to forgive, because I need to be forgiven. When it's harder, I've prayed for help to change my heart, and because I prayed with belief help would come, it did, dramatically, and the very next time I saw the person (I prayed at night, and encountered them the very next day) my heart had already been changed, and the resentment was gone.

Jesus preached law to those who needed it and grace to who those needed it. I'm not going to be swayed by man's opinions. God gave me a heart for his word, and all of it. Given that a lot of Christians now are biblically illiterate, it would seem they don't share my passion. Therefore unconditional and unbiblical forgiveness is rampant.

Halbhh · Feb 22, 2018

HisPrincess710 said:
I'm standing with God and his Word.

It's not loving to not point out evil. It's not loving to just stand by and just "pray" for victims of terrible crimes rather than actually being there for them. It's not loving that they demand they "forgive" the monster or they aren't real Christians.

Jesus certainly didn’t pull any punches when he called the Pharisees just about every name there was in the book at the time. Hypocrites, snakes, brood of vipers, unclean, greedy, whitewashed tombs full of dead men’s bones, blind fools, full of wickedness, sons of hell (Matthew 23: 13-33). He used the strongest possible language of his day to denounce them. He made an example of them. He spoke, not just directly to the Pharisees, but for the benefit of everyone else within earshot. Do you think the people who heard him got his point? Evil is evil. It is never un-Christian-like to tell the truth, nor is it unChristian-like to use strong language when you tell it.

I like that. We all must listen to Christ's words. Forgiving isn't the same as ignoring wrongs. It's not forgetting a person's track record (but consider how Peter and the disciples had to forgive Paul once it was clear he'd changed). It's not failing to stand up to injustices to help protect victims.

Instead we are directly commanded to help the oppressed. To stand up to aid those that are victims.

Forgiving is instead a change in the heart, really: The Parable of the Unforgiving Debtor (Matthew chapter 18) teaches us so powerfully about the big-picture situation -- we over the course of life owe vastly more than those who sin against us owe us normally. In this parable we learn how we are to totally forgive -- "from your heart". We are given the stern warning from our Lord what will happen to us if we do not forgive from our heart.

HisPrincess710 · Feb 22, 2018

Halbhh said:
I like that. We all must listen to Christ's words. Forgiving isn't the same as ignoring wrongs. It's not forgetting a person's track record (but consider how Peter and the disciples had to forgive Paul once it was clear he'd changed). It's not failing to stand up to injustices to help protect victims.

Instead we are directly commanded to help the oppressed. To stand up to aid those that are victims.

Forgiving is instead a change in the heart, really: The Parable of the Unforgiving Debtor (Matthew chapter 18) teaches us so powerfully about the big-picture situation -- we over the course of life owe vastly more than those who sin against us owe us normally. In this parable we learn how we are to totally forgive -- "from your heart". We are given the stern warning from our Lord what will happen to us if we do not forgive.

I would advise you to read about 1st century culture. Forgiveness was not a "heart issue." And neither is it an issue in the bible that forgiveness never comes without repentance. Jesus tells us to pray that our persecutors come to repentance. Forgiveness is a gift, but it still needs to be received. And some people don't want to receive it. I dare not disagree with the word of God. And like I said, if even God won't forgive blaspheming the Holy Spirit, then he must be harboring bitterness. But he doesn't. He's God, and he doesn't play mean tricks on the oppressed. Just freely handing out forgiveness is not going to help the problem. In fact, it'll only make it worse.

I don't mean to be sound hostile, but Jesus himself said that if someone harms a child, it would be better for that person to be tied to a rock and then flung into the sea. I'm afraid we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

Halbhh · Feb 22, 2018

One one error, or possibly a miscommunication if you didn't meant it the way it seems -- that forgiving isn't a heart issue. The heart means what we think/feel inside that others don't know, but God knows.

Christ worded it: "35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

But one should read that entire parable of course, not just one verse!

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 18:21-35 - New International Version

A_Thinker · Feb 22, 2018

Halbhh said:
One one error, or possibly a miscommunication if you didn't meant it the way it seems -- that forgiving isn't a heart issue. The heart means what we think/feel inside that others don't know, but God knows.

Christ worded it: "35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

But one should read that entire parable of course, not just one verse!

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 18:21-35 - New International Version

I think that forgiveness is wanting the best for the offender, .... whether they want it or not.

This is certainly God's attitude, and as His children, we should be seeking to emulate Him.

HisPrincess710 · Feb 22, 2018

A_Thinker said:
I think that forgiveness is wanting the best for the offender, .... whether they want it or not.

This is certainly God's attitude, and as His children, we should be seeking to emulate Him.

Like I said, if even God can't forgive the unpardonable sin, then apparently we're more forgiving than him.

I do seek to emulate him by telling others that they must repent. Forgiveness is freely offered, but not freely given. The offender has to receive it, and some do not. I'm not going to argue with the bible and neither should anyone else for the sake of comfort.

There are evil people in this world who do not have a conscience. There are those God gives over to reprobate minds and to Satan. If we're not going to be serious about repentance being needed for forgiveness, then we'll continue to think evil is not evil or that there's no accountability. I'd rather take the word of God over the word of man any day.

Anyone who is not moved by the losses these families and friends of all these mass shooting victims have been forced to endure, or their sense of safety being compromised, or is not infuriated by the fact that these monsters freely got their hands on tools primarily used to killing to murder and destroy, does not have a pulse. I'd rather be angry than feel nothing at all.

They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
‘Peace, peace,’ they say,
when there is no peace.
Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct?
No, they have no shame at all;
they do not even know how to blush.
So they will fall among the fallen;
they will be brought down when I punish them,”
says the Lord.

- Jeremiah 6:14-15

Because they lead my people astray, saying, “Peace,” when there is no peace, and because, when a flimsy wall is built, they cover it with whitewash, therefore tell those who cover it with whitewash that it is going to fall. Rain will come in torrents, and I will send hailstones hurtling down, and violent winds will burst forth. When the wall collapses, will people not ask you, “Where is the whitewash you covered it with?

- Ezekiel 13:10-12

HisPrincess710 · Feb 22, 2018

Unconditional forgiveness is usually motivated more by fear than by love. And because of this it’s usually destructive. If a wife continues to forgive a habitually unfaithful and abusive husband unconditionally, her toleration of his behavior will probably result in even more abuse and disrespect. This kind of “unconditional” forgiveness expresses a determination to cling to the status quo. No matter how bad things are, this woman fears that things will probably get worse if she holds her husband accountable. Her passive acceptance of his behavior will probably encourage him to continue in his sin. Instead of her forgiveness being a helpful act of love, it is actually a violation of love that will hinder his growth toward Christlikeness.

I would make the case that it is harmful to a person to forgive him without requiring repentance. As seen above, the Bible is clear that sin requires a rebuke. Ignoring sin teaches sinners that sin does not bring consequences. This is harmful to their souls. Continuing to have the benefit of a righteous relationship with another and yet remain in sin against that person results in fostering a habituation of sinful inclinations in their soul, which God says brings about suffering and death.

The notion that Christians cannot ever hate, be angry, or lack forgiveness is an unbiblical concept. God Himself is eternally angry with sin, but He is certainly not a psychological basket case. He loves, hates, and is angry in appropriate ways. Our task as believers is to imitate this. Be angry with and hate sin appropriately (Rom. 12:9) and love what is good appropriately. For example, righteous anger can evolve beyond the biblical limits to become malice, slander, and bitterness while, to give another example, an appropriate love of food can evolve beyond the biblical limits into gluttony.

Halbhh · Feb 22, 2018

in such situations, one can both leave, and forgive, both (in time). Forgiving doesn't mean putting the same opportunity in front of an attacker endlessly.

I can forgive a thief for instance, but remove additional opportunity for him to steal and/or help the police catch him.

How I need to forgive: genuinely in my heart.

HisPrincess710 · Feb 22, 2018

Halbhh said:
in such situations, one can both leave, and forgive, both (in time). Forgiving doesn't mean putting the same opportunity in front of an attacker endlessly.

Some Christians will say that it does though. There are Christians who say forgiveness means absolving responsibility. There's so much confusion about forgiveness because people don't want to be uncomfortable and don't want to deal effectively with the evil in this world.

It is clear that God does not forgive without repentance. This doctrine is taught in a number of texts. For example, in Luke 13:3 Jesus says, “unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” In Mark 1:15 John the Baptist commands that we must “repent and believe the Gospel.” The connection between repentance and forgiveness of sins (i.e. “salvation”) is seen throughout the Scriptures. For example, in Acts 2:38 repentance is directly connected as a condition for the remission of sins. For additional examples of this connection see Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 24:45-49; Acts 3:19; 8:22; 17:30-31; Romans 2:4-5; II Corinthians 7:10; II Tim. 2:25-26.

Since we are to be imitators of God and forgive in the same way God forgives, we would expect the Scriptures to be consistent, stating that the condition of repentance is required to be fulfilled before believers are required to forgive each other’s sins. It does.

Jesus stated in Luke 17:3, “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.” Here, the meaning is clear. The word “if” (Grk. ean) introduces the condition for a rebuke and for granting forgiveness. If (subjunctive) a person sins, we must (imperative) rebuke him, and if (subjunctive) he repents, we must (imperative) forgive him. This is as clear a statement as you will find on the subject. Forgiveness is conditioned upon repentance—and this is one of the same criteria that God requires before He forgives sin.

The doctrine of Hell is a sufficient proof of the lack of universal forgiveness by God.

Why we should reject forgiveness culture

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