If you are a sinner, you are NOT saved by grace!

corinth77777 said:

Did you know the fruit of the spirit is faith or faithfulness?

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Yes. Paul the apostle says so quite plainly in Galatians 5:22.

corinth77777 said:

Did you know that the faith that saves is a faith that works?

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Yes, the apostle James makes this point very strongly in James 2.

corinth77777 said:

Faith is not merely mental,

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Faith gives rise to deeds but faith is not those deeds. When a wind blows strongly across a lake and waves are stirred up, is it correct to say, "Those waves are the wind!"? Obviously not. This is to mistake an effect for its cause. Likewise, it is mistaking the effect for its cause to say that the works faith may produce are faith itself. Faith is a persuasion of mind that provokes corresponding action, but that action is not itself faith.

corinth77777 said:

Therefore faith itself is active

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Yes. But active in what way? Sometimes, faith does nothing more than accept a proposition as true. For example, I take it on faith that the planet Jupiter exists. I have never seen Jupiter itself with my own two eyes, only photos of it. I have no means of verifying the existence of Jupiter for myself. I just believe. My belief in Jupiter, however, requires no corresponding action, it doesn't shape the character of my living at all. It is merely a fact I have chosen to accept as true.

corinth77777 said:

Are the fruits of the spirit works?

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As I pointed out already in this thread, the fruit of the Spirit are the characteristics, the nature, of the Spirit manifested in the believer's life. These characteristics may be expressed in things the believers does or doesn't do though they are not works in-and-of-themselves but fundamentally characteristics of a state of being. An apple tree is alive, and nourished, and watered, it has the genetic characteristics that make bearing apples possible, and so it bears apples. But being nourished by the soil, and watered by the rain, and being genetically able to bear apples are not things the apple tree does to bear apples, these are things the tree is and receives so that it might bear fruit. In the same way, a believer must first receive and be before he can do, before he can bear spiritual "apples." So, while the Fruit of the Spirit produces works, it is not first of all a work but a state of being.

corinth77777 said:

I asked 3 questions....and I didn't answer.

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1stcenturylady said:

1 John 1:9 is when you BECOME a Christian, at which time you are then dead to sin, and are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, thus when you walk in the Spirit, you are not going to be committing any willful, or known to be sin, sins.

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I don't think 1 John 1:9 is speaking of one's conversion experience. The verse may include it, but nothing in the verse requires that it be confined only to that experience.

It doesn't follow that because one is "dead to sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ," and one is "not in the flesh but in the Spirit," that one is guaranteed not to commit willful sin. That just isn't what the Bible says. As I pointed out in my last post to you, Paul wrote often in his various letters to his fellow Christians about their willful sin.

1stcenturylady said:

Because you don't know about them, you can't repent, thus the need for an Advocate.

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But this simply isn't what Scripture says. You're adding your own spin here.

1stcenturylady said:

So whatever sins those would be are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

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I understand what you think in this regard, but simply repeating yourself doesn't overcome the objections I raised to your thinking.

1stcenturylady said:

I also see that you don't think there is any scripture that says we cannot commit willful sin, but 1 John 3:9 says that.

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No, in context it speaks to willful and persistent practice of sin, it speaks of a life of sin, not the occasional - and perhaps willful - sin a believer might commit.

1stcenturylady said:

Those sins MUST be repented of.

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Yes, I agree. Always keep short accounts with God.

1stcenturylady said:

And for those who fall away like that, there is no guarantee God will even allow them to repent. I know that is strange in light of 1 John 1:9, but that verse is at the beginning to become a Christian, not someone that willfully sins later and tramples on the Blood of Jesus and the Spirit of Grace.

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Nothing in the verse itself or in its immediate context gives you ground to contend for this idea that 1 John 1:9 is speaking only or particularly of one's conversion experience.

aiki said:

Nothing in the verse itself or in its immediate context gives you ground to contend for this idea that 1 John 1:9 is speaking only or particularly of one's conversion experience.

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Actually, it does. It is the verse before it. Also, 6 and 10, but let's just deal with 8.

1 John 1:8 is not about a Christian. It correlates to "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." In that verse, even though the Jews had the law and kept the commandments, they still sinned in their heart, though maybe not in action. However, 1 John 1:8 is referring to something far worse.

John wrote this epistle to his congregation in Ephesus for the sole purpose of combating the false doctrines of the Nicolaitans. The Nicolaitans were Gnostic and were infiltrating and perverting certain doctrines already in the church. According to early church history, Nicolas, one of the seven deacons of Acts 6, is noted as starting this perverted doctrine, but it is not known for sure that it is the same man. Anyway, 1 John 4:1-3 shows the premise on which this doctrine came to be.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

This Nicolas believed that Jesus did not come in the flesh, but only in spirit. Thus only sins of the spirit were actually sins. And sins of the flesh were covered by grace. He further believed that the more you sinned the more grace you obtained, so sin on purpose and they were not counted as sins. Thus verse 8. Verse 10 is a person saying they never sinned in their whole life which contradicts "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." So these people had a form of religion but denied the power of the Holy Spirit to kill their desire to sin. You can see how this would attract and deceive young Christians who still wanted to sin in the flesh and get away with it. Verse 9 follows to show them they MUST confess their sins in order to become a Spirit-filled Christian.

Verse 7 is the life of a Christian. They do not walk in darkness like the Nicolaitans, have already repented and been filled with the Holy Spirit. Thus any unintentional mistakes of action are cleansed. Their heart is for God, and want to please Him.

Revelation 2:
“To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,

‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

1stcenturylady said:

1 John 1:8 is not about a Christian. It correlates to "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

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Well, hang on. The two verses make it clear that no one can claim sinless perfection, that every person is guilty of sin, but it does not follow that these verses must be speaking only of the condition of people before they are saved. As the many rebukes and corrections given to believers in the letters of the New Testament reveal, sin was not absent among them even though they were genuinely born-again. Here a few instances of such rebukes and corrections:

Romans 14:10-13.
1 Corinthians 3:1-3.
1 Corinthians 4:18-21.
1 Corinthians 5.
1 Corinthians 6:4-7.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20.
Ephesians 4:23-32.
2 Thessalonians 3:11-15. And so on.

1stcenturylady said:

John wrote this epistle to his congregation in Ephesus for the sole purpose of combating the false doctrines of the Nicolaitans. The Nicolaitans were Gnostic and were infiltrating and perverting certain doctrines already in the church.

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While it may be true that early gnostic doctrines were afflicting the Church to whom John wrote, he gives no ground in the things he wrote in his letters to confine his words only to these nascent gnostic heresies. Not once does John explicitly name the Nicolaitans or their doctrines in his first letter but words things in such a way as to allow an understanding and application of his teachings that extends beyond Nicolaitan heresy.

1stcenturylady said:

Verse 7 is the life of a Christian. They do not walk in darkness like the Nicolaitans, have already repented and been filled with the Holy Spirit.

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But this isn't actually what John wrote. He said nothing of the Nicolaitans in 1 John 1:7 nor does he offer any careful distinction between believers and non-believers in the verse or its immediate context, either. In fact, verse six only speaks of the absence of fellowship with God, not relationship, that was characteristic of those who claimed to walk with God but walked in darkness. It is very possible that verse six describes those who were living like the Prodigal Son, who, though entirely profligate in his conduct and thus out of fellowship with his father, nonetheless always remained in relationship to his father as a son.

aiki said:

Well, hang on. The two verses make it clear that no one can claim sinless perfection, that every person is guilty of sin, but it does not follow that these verses must be speaking only of the condition of people before they are saved. As the many rebukes and corrections given to believers in the letters of the New Testament reveal, sin was not absent among them even though they were genuinely born-again. Here a few instances of such rebukes and corrections:

Romans 14:10-13.
1 Corinthians 3:1-3.
1 Corinthians 4:18-21.
1 Corinthians 5.
1 Corinthians 6:4-7.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20.
Ephesians 4:23-32.
2 Thessalonians 3:11-15. And so on.



While it may be true that early gnostic doctrines were afflicting the Church to whom John wrote, he gives no ground in the things he wrote in his letters to confine his words only to these nascent gnostic heresies. Not once does John explicitly name the Nicolaitans or their doctrines in his first letter but words things in such a way as to allow an understanding and application of his teachings that extends beyond Nicolaitan heresy.



But this isn't actually what John wrote. He said nothing of the Nicolaitans in 1 John 1:7 nor does he offer any careful distinction between believers and non-believers in the verse or its immediate context, either. In fact, verse six only speaks of the absence of fellowship with God, not relationship, that was characteristic of those who claimed to walk with God but walked in darkness. It is very possible that verse six describes those who were living like the Prodigal Son, who, though entirely profligate in his conduct and thus out of fellowship with his father, nonetheless always remained in relationship to his father as a son.

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You believe anything you want to hear then. Whatever makes you feel good.

1stcenturylady said:

You believe anything you want to hear then. Whatever makes you feel good.

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I wish I could. But I can't.

aiki said:

I wish I could. But I can't.

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You need to do some research on your own if you don't like what I've found. But for goodness sakes, don't let anyone tell you that 1 John 1:6,8 and 10 are about Christians. If you want to know the truth. Read 1 John 3:4-10

1stcenturylady said:

You need to do some research on your own if you don't like what I've found. But for goodness sakes, don't let anyone tell you that 1 John 1:6,8 and 10 are about Christians. If you want to know the truth. Read 1 John 3:4-10

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I think it should be clear from my responses to you that I have done "some research." Quite a bit, in fact.

I understand you're solidly convinced of your perspective, but that, in itself, does not guarantee that you've got the right of things. As I've pointed out, you've engaged in some significant eisegesis in your explanations of the verses you cited. I haven't. That should give you some pause, it seems to me.

Just because I've come to a different point of view on Scripture than you doesn't mean I don't want to know the truth and haven't taken the time to study God's word. I do and have.

Be careful about the assumptions you make about the people you interact with on these forums. Some of them do actually know Scripture at least as well - and perhaps better - than you do. Will you be able to tell when this is the case? At the moment, it doesn't look like it.

aiki said:

I think it should be clear from my responses to you that I have done "some research." Quite a bit, in fact.

I understand you're solidly convinced of your perspective, but that, in itself, does not guarantee that you've got the right of things. As I've pointed out, you've engaged in some significant eisegesis in your explanations of the verses you cited. I haven't. That should give you some pause, it seems to me.

Just because I've come to a different point of view on Scripture than you doesn't mean I don't want to know the truth and haven't taken the time to study God's word. I do and have.

Be careful about the assumptions you make about the people you interact with on these forums. Some of them do actually know Scripture at least as well - and perhaps better - than you do. Will you be able to tell when this is the case? At the moment, it doesn't look like it.

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Then you probably know about the Semitic styles of writing and should be able to recognize it in scripture. 1 John 1 and 3 are two such instances. Show me how John applied that style in these two chapters.

If you can interpret it correctly by the style, then you will know that I'm not using eisegesis, you are. I'm interpreting it the way John meant it.

1stcenturylady said:

Then you probably know about the Semitic styles of writing and should be able to recognize it in scripture.

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I know something of Semitisms, yes.

1stcenturylady said:

1 John 1 and 3 are two such instances. Show me how John applied that style in these two chapters.

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To what end, exactly?

I've noticed that you haven't once actually directly addressed any of the points I've made to you in my last several posts. You simply rebut by restating your understanding of Scripture. And now you want me to explain what Semitisms the apostle John may have employed in his first letter. Given how little attention you've actually given to my perspective and points, I'm strongly disinclined to do as you've asked.

ViaCrucis said:

Looks like nobody's saved by grace then. Welp, so much for the Gospel--guess we can all find some other religion now.

-CryptoLutheran

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We are not just "saved" by grace alone.....According to the Bible,it is Grace through Faith.
Ephesians 2:8-10 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

aiki said:

I know something of Semitisms, yes.



To what end, exactly?

I've noticed that you haven't once actually directly addressed any of the points I've made to you in my last several posts. You simply rebut by restating your understanding of Scripture. And now you want me to explain what Semitisms the apostle John may have employed in his first letter. Given how little attention you've actually given to my perspective and points, I'm strongly disinclined to do as you've asked.

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That is a fair assessment. I will go back and do that now.

Truth Crusader238 said:

We are not just "saved" by grace alone.....According to the Bible,it is Grace through Faith.
Ephesians 2:8-10 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

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Yes. I'm a Lutheran, I know. And that faith is a gift, not of ourselves; just as Ephesians 2:8 says. Faith is God's gift, that makes it grace.

Salvation isn't grace plus faith (as though faith were something we did or contributed); salvation is grace alone, through faith, which is itself a gift--i.e. grace.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Yes. I'm a Lutheran, I know. And that faith is a gift, not of ourselves; just as Ephesians 2:8 says. Faith is God's gift, that makes it grace.

Salvation isn't grace plus faith (as though faith were something we did or contributed); salvation is grace alone, through faith, which is itself a gift--i.e. grace.

-CryptoLutheran

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If that were true we would be able to get to that salvation without faith.

Thanks for letting us know we can dispense with faith if we want to and yet be saved.

What you said well illustrates the problem with human wisdom. It can seem so right and yet be very subtly deceptive.

You say: "faith, which is itself a gift--i.e. grace." But you fail to see that you have really said nothing. For the fact that we were allowed to be born and live at all after Adam's sin was and is a gift of God's grace. Naturally anything we are permitted to do because of that gift of being able to be born is also a gift of grace. Every breath we take is a gift of God's grace.

Buzz_B said:

If that were true we would be able to get to that salvation without faith.

Thanks for letting us know we can dispense with faith if we want to and yet be saved.

What you said well illustrates the problem with human wisdom. It can seem so right and yet be very subtly deceptive.

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Scripture calls faith a gift, Scripture expressly declares that it is God who gives us faith. St. Paul is abundantly clear, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God". The Apostle likewise explicitly states, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ", Romans 10:17. It is God who gives faith. Faith comes from outside of ourselves as a gift, from God, through which God acts to justify us. To freely justify us, which He has accomplished once and for all by the death and resurrection of His Son. By one man's trespass sin and death came to all men, and by the one Man's righteous obedience has come justification to all men. Christ is our justification, and we are justified, freely, not by our acts but by God's gracious act in Jesus Christ, applied to us through the gracious working of God in the Means of His Word and Sacraments.

You are talking about human wisdom. I am talking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ proclaimed by the Holy Apostles in Sacred Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Scripture calls faith a gift, Scripture expressly declares that it is God who gives us faith. St. Paul is abundantly clear, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God". The Apostle likewise explicitly states, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ", Romans 10:17. It is God who gives faith. Faith comes from outside of ourselves as a gift, from God, through which God acts to justify us. To freely justify us, which He has accomplished once and for all by the death and resurrection of His Son. By one man's trespass sin and death came to all men, and by the one Man's righteous obedience has come justification to all men. Christ is our justification, and we are justified, freely, not by our acts but by God's gracious act in Jesus Christ, applied to us through the gracious working of God in the Means of His Word and Sacraments.

You are talking about human wisdom. I am talking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ proclaimed by the Holy Apostles in Sacred Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

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If that what you said in your previous post were true we would be able to get to that salvation without faith.

Thanks for letting us know we can dispense with faith if we want to and yet be saved.

What you said well illustrates the problem with human wisdom. It can seem so right and yet be very subtly deceptive.

You say: "faith, which is itself a gift--i.e. grace." But you fail to see that you have really said nothing. For the fact that we were allowed to be born and live at all after Adam's sin was and is a gift of God's grace. Naturally anything we are permitted to do because of that gift of being able to be born is also a gift of grace. Every breath we take is a gift of God's grace.

And you are yet subtly tricking yourself in this current post. Think about it again. You are indeed using human wisdom to understand, and that is why you are getting it wrong.

You seem to think that something being a gift means we have nothing to do with accepting and using it. Even allowing our hearts to receive it. You are not being realistic. You let your wisdom stop you short of reasoning it all of the way through.

If it were really true that faith comes from outside ourselves, as you wrongly claim, then surely our God whose desire it is that all repent and be saved would give faith to all. Further, lacking faith in Jesus would not then condemn us, for it would be God's fault that we did not have faith.

Obviously you are not understanding correctly. You must then either accept that you must be wrong or believe the Bible is wrong. Which will you do? I recommend faulting your comprehension of what the Scriptures are saying and studying on to figure out what they really are saying.

aiki said:

Well, hang on. The two verses make it clear that no one can claim sinless perfection, that every person is guilty of sin, but it does not follow that these verses must be speaking only of the condition of people before they are saved. As the many rebukes and corrections given to believers in the letters of the New Testament reveal, sin was not absent among them even though they were genuinely born-again.

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I already addressed that. But will again. The two verses referred to are "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." And "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

They are both saying the same thing, as well as verse 10 which is about a person who says they have never sinned - ever. They are not a Christian either. The verse of "all have sinned..." comes from the Psalms. Those Jews and Gentiles were not under the blood of Jesus. They were not saved.

Here a few instances of such rebukes and corrections:

Romans 14:10-13.

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LOL That is what we have been doing. We are not in agreement and are judging each other. But is it sin to try and teach each other what we believe for their benefit? It may be frustrating, but it is not sin.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

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When you don't walk in the Spirit, but quench him, you are not getting the nourishment you need to become a strong, mature Christian. This is spoken against by the apostle Paul. He is not saying this is the norm for a Christian. They were sinning. If they were walking in the Spirit like we are commanded to do, this were not have happened.

1 Corinthians 4:18-21.

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same as above

1 Corinthians 5.

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When someone claims to be a Christian, but clearly isn't and is blatantly sinning in everybody's faces, they are to be shunned. This is for the purpose that they may see their sin and confess their sins to become a Christian.

1 Corinthians 6:4-7.

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Paul is warning them about sinning. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? A true Christian walks in the Spirit. If someone willfully sins, they will not inherit the kingdom of God. That church were good at quenching the Spirit. Paul warns them harshly so they would become strong Christians and eventually saved.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20.

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same as above

Ephesians 4:23-32.

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same as above "Do not sin."

2 Thessalonians 3:11-15. And so on.

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same as first

While it may be true that early gnostic doctrines were afflicting the Church to whom John wrote, he gives no ground in the things he wrote in his letters to confine his words only to these nascent gnostic heresies. Not once does John explicitly name the Nicolaitans or their doctrines in his first letter but words things in such a way as to allow an understanding and application of his teachings that extends beyond Nicolaitan heresy.

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Only in that if you say you are a Christian and keep on sinning, but say you're not, then you're not a Christian and need to 9. confess your sins...

Nicolaitans - John described their beliefs, as has Paul. It was in his book of Revelation that John named them and called them Nicolaitans. John called them antichrists in the epistle.

But this isn't actually what John wrote. He said nothing of the Nicolaitans in 1 John 1:7 nor does he offer any careful distinction between believers and non-believers in the verse or its immediate context, either. In fact, verse six only speaks of the absence of fellowship with God, not relationship, that was characteristic of those who claimed to walk with God but walked in darkness. It is very possible that verse six describes those who were living like the Prodigal Son, who, though entirely profligate in his conduct and thus out of fellowship with his father, nonetheless always remained in relationship to his father as a son.

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Of course he didn't say anything about the Nicolaitans in 1 John 1:7 - that verse is about walking in the Spirit. Walking in darkness can lead you to hell.


Jesus has given us the Holy Spirit so that we are dead to willful sin. Those that try to find scriptures to justify the sin in their lives or others they talk to by standing on 1 John 1:8 are not being a good steward of God's Word and the gospel. Those that teach against sin with apathy, like "everybody sins" will be judged for leading others to also be apathetic toward sin. And John was NOT apathetic, nor was Paul. 1 John 1:8 is a quote of the Nicolaitans, and God hates the deeds of the Nicoliatans. They deliberately sinned so grace could abound. Paul fought them too, and quoted their false conclusions. Speaking against their teachings was more important than naming them. The most important thing we need to take from this is regarding those denominations who wink at sin. Here is a big clue. Stay away from any denomination that allows practiced homosexuality from the pulpit. They are antichrist and have fallen away from the truth.

Buzz_B said:

You must then either accept that you must be wrong or believe the Bible is wrong. Which will you do?

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I can admit that I could be wrong, but nothing you've said even comes close to an argument against my position. You can accuse me up and down all you like of relying on "human wisdom", but all I've done is argue that on the basis of Holy Scripture salvation is something God does, graciously, for us, and that He has done this through Jesus Christ.

You are right, God does desire that all be saved. Scripture says that, 1 Timothy 2:4. Indeed, He is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe, 1 Timothy 4:10

Scripture also says that it is God who gives us faith, Ephesians 2:8.

How does God give us faith? Well Scripture tells us this as well, by the Word, as per Romans 10:17.

Scripture tells us that salvation is God's work alone, apart from ourselves, not by our efforts, so no one may boast (Ephesians 2:9).

Well then, have at it, if God desires everyone to be saved, and if salvation is by God's grace alone through faith, which is God's gift. Why might someone not be saved? Clearly the problem isn't found in God, who desires all to be saved, nor is the problem found in His grace which is efficacious, nor is the problem found in His word which does not return to Him void but accomplishes the purpose He sets it out to do (Isaiah 55:11).

Why might someone not be saved then? God's fault? No, man's fault.

Because, as Christ our Lord has said, "This is the judgment, that men preferred darkness over the light because their deeds were evil." And what does the Lord's Apostle say? "There is none who does good, no not one." And what of the Prophet Jeremiah? "The heart is wicked and desperately sick, who can understand it?" And what does King David write? "For I was born in iniquity, in sin was I conceived in my mother's womb."

Apart from the gracious work of God, accomplished in Christ alone, which is given to us by God's grace alone, worked upon us through the faith which God gives us alone we are lost in our sins, dead, and without hope.

But perhaps this is just more human wisdom on my part. I suppose instead of believing the Scriptures I should instead believe the inspired accusations of Guy-on-Internet.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

I can admit that I could be wrong, but nothing you've said even comes close to an argument against my position. You can accuse me up and down all you like of relying on "human wisdom", but all I've done is argue that on the basis of Holy Scripture salvation is something God does, graciously, for us, and that He has done this through Jesus Christ.

You are right, God does desire that all be saved. Scripture says that, 1 Timothy 2:4. Indeed, He is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe, 1 Timothy 4:10

Scripture also says that it is God who gives us faith, Ephesians 2:8.

How does God give us faith? Well Scripture tells us this as well, by the Word, as per Romans 10:17.

Scripture tells us that salvation is God's work alone, apart from ourselves, not by our efforts, so no one may boast (Ephesians 2:9).

Well then, have at it, if God desires everyone to be saved, and if salvation is by God's grace alone through faith, which is God's gift. Why might someone not be saved? Clearly the problem isn't found in God, who desires all to be saved, nor is the problem found in His grace which is efficacious, nor is the problem found in His word which does not return to Him void but accomplishes the purpose He sets it out to do (Isaiah 55:11).

Why might someone not be saved then? God's fault? No, man's fault.

Because, as Christ our Lord has said, "This is the judgment, that men preferred darkness over the light because their deeds were evil." And what does the Lord's Apostle say? "There is none who does good, no not one." And what of the Prophet Jeremiah? "The heart is wicked and desperately sick, who can understand it?" And what does King David write? "For I was born in iniquity, in sin was I conceived in my mother's womb."

Apart from the gracious work of God, accomplished in Christ alone, which is given to us by God's grace alone, worked upon us through the faith which God gives us alone we are lost in our sins, dead, and without hope.

But perhaps this is just more human wisdom on my part. I suppose instead of believing the Scriptures I should instead believe the inspired accusations of Guy-on-Internet.

-CryptoLutheran

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Now you are keeping yourself confused by the use of many words.

If you are humble you will use the seed I sowed to you and find your way to the true spirit of the matter. I need not engage in wrestling with you.

You are using human wisdom. If you are not humble enough to allow anyone to tell you that, oh well. All I am asking is that you see the very simple truth I pointed out to you. It is truth whether you like it or not. Take time and think about it instead of wasting your mental energy trying to repel it. It is God's truth trying to get you to open your mind and heart to honestly consider and accept it or reject it, by which God's word judges us all.

And don't waste your time and energy judging me. Judge the message and not hastily. Take time with it and really think it through. Just because it makes you uncomfortable by contradicting what you believe is no excuse.

put more thought into Matthew 18:21-35. The key to this is in the parable Jesus there spoke.

We all begin life in debt to God. Being as we cannot at all afford the cost of that debt, for that reason alone, matter not what God requires of us, salvation is a free gift. Free only because we have nothing to offer which can purchase it. Though God require things of us to receive that gift, those things he is asking are not much, and certainly those things he is asking of us are not even close to being enough to purchase that gift. So the entire idea of considering doing those things as trying to purchase that gift is ridiculous. That no works able to be required idea is not at all what Paul meant and is an idea born of the wicked one just to confuse us..