Who is the 6th King?

R. Hartono

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Who is this 6th king that existed during the time of John?
The Revelation given to John is the event of the end times situation which is the final 70th week of Daniel.

So the Beast of Revelation will come from Roman because there will only appear 4 beasts of Daniel that directly affect the Jews.





 
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mindlight

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Revelation 17:9-11
This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

In Romans 17, John describes prostitute sitting on a beast. The beast has 7 heads and 10 horns.

The angel defines the 7 heads as seven hills with which the woman sits on. These 7 heads are also defined as 7 kings: 5 who have fallen, and 1 who is, and 1 yet to come.

Who is this 6th king that existed during the time of John?

Seven hills refers to Rome not Jerusalem. The Daniel prophecy of 4 kingdoms Ends with Rome. So Rome is the typology from which we can read the future evil empire that Revelation also describes.

John wrote this about 90 AD which dates the sixth king in the reign of Domitian - so in answer to your OP Domitian or the principality / power behind this emperor.

But the main theme of Revelation is Christ not Caesar. The references to Rome look deeper to discern the powers behind Rome and the evil empire yet to come.

There have been various efforts to resurrect the Roman empire. Noble ones as with Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Empire , pathetic ones as with Mussolini, and more brutal ones as with the Nazis. But I think we are still waiting for a new evil Rome restored by someone acting in the conquerors spirit of the early Roman emperors for the seventh king. The assassination of Domitian arguably marked the end of Roman Expansion although Trajans empire was technically bigger. After Domitian the original Spirit of Rome was missing in the same force.
 
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Douggg

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Tiberius not Titus. Titus was Flavian, the family that took over after Nero's suicide.
Thanks. I made a mental mistake. I went back and corrected my post.

Julius Caesar was not an emperor, but he would be considered a king if we consider king as a catch word for leader. The key thing was that they are of the Julio-Claudian clan.
 
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cfdude

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Revelation 17:9-11
This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

In Romans 17, John describes prostitute sitting on a beast. The beast has 7 heads and 10 horns.

The angel defines the 7 heads as seven hills with which the woman sits on. These 7 heads are also defined as 7 kings: 5 who have fallen, and 1 who is, and 1 yet to come.

Who is this 6th king that existed during the time of John?


I propose that the seven heads are fallen angels who are under their authority of a main fallen arch-angel of the abyss and that these angels will be temporarily loosed to come back as they did in Gen 6 to inflict specific judgments.

Here is my evidence so far for this proposition:

* First, the angel that comes out of the abyss is called a king, prince or ruler in the greek (Rev 9:11).

* Second, in Rev 12:7, 9, it repeatedly describes Satan and “his angels”. It makes sense that these angel kings are also on his head. This is similar to the king and his locust army that comes out the abyss who also have crowns (Rev 9:7).

* Third, fallen angels elsewhere in scripture are also called princes or rulers in Daniel 10:13, 20-21.

* Fourth, we see in Rev 9:14, that there are four angels bound and then released at the Euphrates. Could these angelic hosts who return explain the verse in Rev 17:10 “five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come,”? Contextually they are the previous five fallen angels in John’s timeframe; the wormwood star (Rev 8:10-11), the star of the abyss (Rev 9:1), with the four of the Euphrates (Rev 9:14) already fallen? The 6th being the star king of the abyss? It fits the timeline of Revelation's fallen angels.

* Fifth, the seventh king beast in Rev 17:10-11 comes from the abyss (Rev 11:7 and Rev 17:8). Why not the other 6 kings as well?

* Sixth, In the book of 1 Enoch, seven fallen angels in the abyss are called mountains. The Bible says Enoch prophesied truth in Jude 1:14-15. Does that make him a true prophet based on the Deut 18 test? At least consider its statements on this subject. Here is a free online version of 1 Enoch.

In Enoch chapter 56:1-15, he says that the angels return in v. 5, to instigate the Parthians and Medes (Iran). See also: Jer 51:11,28, Isa 13:17

1. And I saw there the hosts of the angels of punishment going, and they held scourges and chains of iron and bronze. 2. And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: 'To whom are these who hold the scourges going?' 3. And he said unto me: 'To their elect and beloved ones, that they may be cast into the chasm of the abyss of the valley. 4. And then that valley shall be filled with their elect and beloved, And the days of their lives shall be at an end, And the days of their leading astray shall not thenceforward be reckoned. 5. And in those days the angels shall return And hurl themselves to the east upon the Parthians and Medes: They shall stir up the kings, so that a spirit of unrest shall come upon them, And they shall rouse them from their thrones, That they may break forth as lions from their lairs, And as hungry wolves among their flocks. 6. And they shall go up and tread under foot the land of His elect ones, [And the land of His elect ones shall be before them a threshing-floor and a highway:] 7 But the city of my righteous shall be a hindrance to their horses. And they shall begin to fight among themselves, And their right hand shall be strong against themselves, And a man shall not know his brother, Nor a son his father or his mother, Till there be no number of the corpses through their slaughter, And their punishment be not in vain. 8 In those days Sheol shall open its jaws, And they shall be swallowed up therein And their destruction shall be at an end; Sheol shall devour the sinners in the presence of the elect.'

What is especially interesting is that 1 Enoch chapter 18:11-15 then describes the angels who are in the abyss. The fallen angels are described as "mountains."

11. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns ⌈⌈of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns⌉⌉ of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth. 12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. 13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) ⌈for ten thousand years⌉.'

He discusses further details in 1 Enoch chapter 19:1-2, 20:1-2 and in chapter 21:1-10 he again repeats the seven angels of the abyss as mountains.

1. And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. 2. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. 3. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. 4. Then I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' 5. Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? 6. These are of the number of the stars ⌈of heaven⌉, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' 7. And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. 8. Then I said: 'How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' 9. Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' 10. And he said ⌈⌈unto me⌉⌉: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'

* Seventh, the fallen angels seem to have corresponding holy angels over them that they contend with.

- We can see this angelic contrast in Rev 12:7 Michael and his angels fight with the dragon and his angels.

- We can see this angelic contrast in (Daniel 10:13, 20-21) with Gabriel and Michael contending with the princes of Persia and Greece.

- We can see this angelic contrast with the four horns of the bronze or golden alter vs the four angels loosed at the Euphrates in (Rev 9:13-15).

- We can see this angelic contrast in (Zech 1:19) with the four horns that scatter Judah vs. (Zech 1:20-21) the four craftsmen who come to cast down the horns.

- We can see this angelic contrast in 1 Enoch chapters 18-21, there are 7 mountains describing the fallen angels in the abyss and then in 1 Enoch chapters 24-26, 31-32 we see seven heavenly mountains. Interestingly, Jerusalem is the mountain throne at the center of these mountains and in chapter 24:6, Michael is said to be “their leader”.

- In Rev 5:6, Jesus the Lamb is said to have 7 horns and seven eyes of spirits throughout the earth. Are these the 7 arch-angels of heaven mentioned in 1 Enoch?

- We can see this angelic contrast in the unholy antichrist who is called the “chief prince” in Ezek 39:1 and with the holy Archangel Michael also being called a "chief prince" in Dan 10:13 and in Rev 12:7 Michael has "his angels" and the dragon has "his angels". There seems to be a hierarchical reign within the two differing angelic camps.

(Side note - The 10 horns are possibly just human kings who fight alongside the fallen angels (Ezek 38:9, 39:4 "you and all your hordes, and many peoples with you." - 'peoples' distinct from 'hordes'?). The 10 kings also being possible fallen arch- angels too based on Daniel 7:20, "his companions" and the hierarchical structure of many fallen angels described throughout Enoch.)
 
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cfdude

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Do you really think Daniel was talking about Nebuchadnezzar? Did he qualify? Or did Daniel talked about Satan, the spiritual ruler of that time?

Didn't Satan have a kingdom, (Matthew 12:25-26) which was given to him and become the ruler of them all that Adam and Eve lost through disobedience?

For example, when Satan took Jesus up into the mountain to tempt him, Satan said:

Mat 4:8-9
[8] Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
[9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.


Alright, someone who is thinking outside the box! I would love to discuss this further but don't want to derail the thread. hmm

I'll just say this..

 
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Douggg

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* First, the angel that comes out of the abyss is called a king, prince or ruler in the greek (Rev 9:11).

* Second, in Rev 12:7, 9, it repeatedly describes Satan and “his angels”. It makes sense that these angel kings are also on his head. This is similar to the king and his locust army that comes out the abyss who also have crowns (Rev 9:7).
cfdude, the kings are men. In Revelation 13, one of the heads is mortally wounded but lived - would not apply to angels.

Satan is viewed as the beast in Revelation 17 and Revelation 12 because the actual beast persona is in the bottomless pit for the time stamps of those two chapters. The beast does not come out of the bottomless pit until right before the second half of the seven years begins... which Satan does not represent the beast in Chapter 13.

The number of the beast is the number of a man.

When Jesus returns in Revelation 19, the beast is cast alive into the lake of fire. Satan is cast to a different place the bottomless pit, at that time. So Satan is not the beast. Satan will be worshiped in addition to the beast.

Who the person is in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a is not 100% known, imo. I lean toward Nimrod. But that could be wrong.
 
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claninja

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The question is why must you label the fourth king as Rome? Is it because you count the number of kingdoms after Babylon?

God promised to set up his everlasting kingdom during the 4th kingdom. When did Christ go to a distant land to claim his kingdom? When he died, rose again, and ascended. This happened during the 4th kingdom which was Rome.

Additionally, history shows us that the prophecy of the Nebuchadnezzar statue came true. Babylon, then Persia-Mede, then Greece, then rome.

And you believe that the next two kingdoms were Persia and Greece. Okay, tell me how do you think these kingdoms were inferior to Babylon?

While each succeeding kingdom controlled more land than the previous kingdom, divisions in government were often more prominent with each succeeding kingdom.

Historically, Persian-median unity within its government and its world influence were inferior to Babylon. There were also divisions in the Greek government, as well as Roman.

As for final kingdom, not only I ask you to explain the legs of Iron,

Roman republic (iron legs) which was not ruled by a single ‘king’ but had 2 annually elected consuls. Historians argue that the Roman republic was greater than the Roman Empire.

but also the feet and ten toes mixed with partly iron and partly potters' clay

The Roman republic transitioned to the Roman Empire in about 27bc. This is when a single emperor ruled Rome, instead of elected consuls. By this point the Roman Empire (having 10 senatorial provinces) had expanded over most of the known world and consisted of many nations, peoples, and tongues (mixed iron and clay).

I would make the guess, that the 10 toes are the same as the 10 horns in Daniel 7, which also could be related to the 10 horns and 7 kings in revelation 17.

What do these really represent the moment Christ established His kingdom at His First Coming?

As far as what they really represent, I’m making my best judgment based off scripture.

They are the gentile nations that would trample old covenant Jerusalem until Christ died , rose again, and ascended even until it’s final destruction In 70ad. Under the new covenant Jerusalem is not earthly, it is heavenly and can no longer be trampled.

Christ is king of the heavens and earth. His kingdom is over the heavens and the earth. Those in the body of Christ are now citizens of this kingdom whether we are on earth or in heaven.

Do you really think Daniel was talking about Nebuchadnezzar?

Yes

Why do you think Daniel interpreted King Nebuchadnezzar as "king of kings" who was given a kingdom, power, strength, and glory wheresoever the children of men dwells, beasts of the field, fowls of heaven, and made him ruler over them all?

Do you really think Daniel was talking about Nebuchadnezzar? Did he qualify?

This authority was given to him by God, who authority comes from.

Or did Daniel talked about Satan, the spiritual ruler of that time?

He interpreted the dream for the king explaining the symbols of the vision. Where did he mention Satan?


Didn't Satan have a kingdom,

Satan’s kingdoms are not his to give. Satan’s authority comes from God.
 
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claninja

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The Revelation given to John is the event of the end times situation which is the final 70th week of Daniel.

So the Beast of Revelation will come from Roman because there will only appear 4 beasts of Daniel that directly affect the Jews.






Rome is long gone. John stated 5 King’s have fallen and one of the kings ‘is’. So obviously he is talking about the Roman Empire during his time.

I would argue the context is with old covenant Israel. The old covenant ended a long time ago.

So who is the 6th king that existed during the time of John?
 
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claninja

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Seven hills refers to Rome not Jerusalem.

I agree

John wrote this about 90 AD which dates the sixth king in the reign of Domitian -

This is debatable. There is also evidence that it was written before the fall of Jerusalem.

Is there any other book that Christians argue for a later date besides revelation? It seems wierd that with all other books we argue for earlier dating with the exception of revelation.

and the evil empire yet to come.

Where does Daniel say there will be a 5th kingdom before the kingdom of God comes?

There is no +2000 year gap in the statue.

But the main theme of Revelation is Christ not Caesar.

Agree
 
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mindlight

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I agree

This is debatable. There is also evidence that it was written before the fall of Jerusalem.

Unlike the other apostles John died of old age. Also the tradition puts it strongly in the 90AD area.

Is there any other book that Christians argue for a later date besides revelation? It seems wierd that with all other books we argue for earlier dating with the exception of revelation.

Gospel of John was also later and reads like a mature reflection on Christ. I suppose the earlier date is also possible but tend to favour the later one cause that has been more widely accepted for longer. If later date then 6th king is Domitian if earlier then probably Nero. Both very anti Christian in their Outlook.

https://www.theopedia.com/gospel-of-john

Where does Daniel say there will be a 5th kingdom before the kingdom of God comes?

There is no +2000 year gap in the statue.

I am not arguing for a 5th Kingdom but for a new Rome that has some Kind of continuity (probably in Terms of its principalities or demons with the old Rome). Rome itself was transformed by Christianity and Constantian/ Byzantine Empire lasted longer than the original pagan Roman empire as a Christian Empire. But I think we will see a restoration of pagan Rome before the end which will have a spiritual continuity with the old Roman Empire.
 
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TribulationSigns

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cfdude, the kings are men. In Revelation 13, one of the heads is mortally wounded but lived - would not apply to angels.

[Staff edit].

The heads represent authority. The mountains represent Kingdoms/Rules. They are seven kings which are understood NOT talking about the human kings that you people are trying to identify with world history.

God was talking about Satan's kingdom here, because he spans the completeness of time (he was there all through the completion of the rule of these kings), being the spirit Satan.

Satan is viewed as the beast in Revelation 17 and Revelation 12 because the actual beast persona is in the bottomless pit for the time stamps of those two chapters.

Nowhere in Scripture that God has defined beast as man. Rather the beast is a BODY of Satan personified, making up of PEOPLE with the spirit of antichrist. They are a spiritual family of Satan. Just like we, Christians, are part of the body of Christ! Selah!

God is not talking about particular man, nation, or empires, but a spiritual kingdom that we are fighting against.

Eph 6:12
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The beast does not come out of the bottomless pit until right before the second half of the seven years begins... which Satan does not represent the beast in Chapter 13.

You do not make sense. Christ represents His Body because His Elect has His Spirit. Satan represents his body, the Beast because enemies have his spirit.

The number of the beast is the number of a man.

Because it is simply a Token/Sign/Representation of man as he is ruled over in the Kingdom of Satan. He is the Beast and the Dragon is the ruler that gives him his power or strength. Here is wisdom, count the number of the beast, for it is the number of MAN! Not the number of a man, there is no article "a" in the original manuscripts. It is the Number of Man! Just believers have the name or seal of God, not "a god." Same Greek construction!

When Jesus returns in Revelation 19, the beast is cast alive into the lake of fire. Satan is cast to a different place the bottomless pit, at that time. So Satan is not the beast. Satan will be worshiped in addition to the beast.

Incorrect.

Rev 19:19-20
[19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
[20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

God is not talking about cast two individuals, Antichrist and false prophet, into the lake of fire as most believe. The beast is the first beast. The False Prophet is the second beast of Revelation 13. Again, these beast is Satan's body of people who he deceived! Therefore, the beast and the false prophet represent ALL people was not found written in the book of life, Rev 20:12-15. They are the heathen and professed beleiever of God's congregation, wehther old testament or new testament. This is what God means by the beast and the false prophet cast into the sea. Now what about the dragon, the Devil?

Rev 20:10
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Satan is a spirit and he dwells within his body of believers, the beast, and the false prophet. He will be where his beast and false prophet are cast into. He goes with them when they are cast into the lake of fire. Not go to different place and wait 1,000 years then join with them in lake of fire.

The 1,000 years millennial kingdom is the church. Not future 1,000 years in Jerusalem. Which is why Satan and all of his people will be cast into Lake of Fire at Second Coming.

[Staff edit].
 
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claninja

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If later date then 6th king is Domitian if earlier then probably Nero. Both very anti Christian in their Outlook

I guess where I struggle with this part is that Domitian was never the 6th king no matter who you start with as the 1st king. But Nero can be counted as a 6th king.

That’s if the 7 kings are even about the emperors of Rome.

I am not arguing for a 5th Kingdom but for a new Rome that has some Kind of continuity (probably in Terms of its principalities or demons with the old Rome). Rome itself was transformed by Christianity and Constantian/ Byzantine Empire lasted longer than the original pagan Roman empire as a Christian Empire. But I think we will see a restoration of pagan Rome before the end which will have a spiritual continuity with the old Roman Empire.

If Iran conquered the Middle East today would it be the same Persian kingdom that Daniel mentioned? How about Greece?
 
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claninja

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Julius Caesar was not an emperor, but he would be considered a king if we consider king as catch world for leader. The key thing was that they are of the Julio-Claudian clan.

This is a good point. Even herod and Pilate were considered King’s and rulers of the earth

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’ — for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Acts 4:26-27
 
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claninja

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Rome restored by someone acting in the conquerors spirit of the Flavian emperors for the seventh king.

I guess I also don’t understand why there would be a several thousand year gap in between the 6th and 7th king either.
 
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Douggg

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Nowhere in Scripture that God has defined beast as man.

2Peter2:12

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

ou do not make sense. Christ represents His Body because His Elect has His Spirit. Satan represents his body, the Beast because enemies have his spirit.

Revelation 12, apart from the first five verses which identity the woman in the rest of the chapter as Israel, presents the entire 7 years in front of it. The 1260 days before the war in heaven. And the time, times, half times after the war in heaven. The second heaven.

The beast persona is still in the bottomless pit at that time, before the 7 years begin.

In Revelation 17, the sixth king is ruling, at John's time, first century. The beast persona is still in the bottomless pit, then. The beast persona is not out of the bottomless pit until Revelation 13.

It may not be making sense to you because you have not analyzed (at least not correctly) the crowns on the heads and horns in Chapters 17, 12, and 13.

The changing of the crowns corresponds to when the vision in the chapters are timestamped.

chapter 17 - the vision is timestamped the first century.
chapter 12 - the vision timestamped as the 7 years are about to begin
chapter 13 - the vision timestampled as the last 42 months of the 7 years about to begin.
 
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God promised to set up his everlasting kingdom during the 4th kingdom. When did Christ go to a distant land to claim his kingdom? When he died, rose again, and ascended. This happened during the 4th kingdom which was Rome.

While I understand where you come from with First Coming of Christ. I may disagree. The fourth kingdom was not Rome. It was Satan's kingdom of Iron which represent the period when he comes out of the bottomless pit and have short space of power and have a kingdom, according to Revelation.

Additionally, history shows us that the prophecy of the Nebuchadnezzar statue came true. Babylon, then Persia-Mede, then Greece, then rome.

Sorry, you can't use world history to interpret God's prophecies. It has to biblical history if you understand what it means.

While each succeeding kingdom controlled more land than the previous kingdom, divisions in government were often more prominent with each succeeding kingdom.

Historically, Persian-median unity within its government and its world influence were inferior to Babylon. There were also divisions in the Greek government, as well as Roman.

No, God was not interested in ho the human empires were running. This is not what God talked about. He did not talk about Babylon, Persia, and Greece at all here. Daniel 2 was talking about the strength and power of Satan's kingdom throughout time before the Second Coming.

I would make the guess, that the 10 toes are the same as the 10 horns in Daniel 7, which also could be related to the 10 horns and 7 kings in revelation 17.

You insisted that the fourth kingdom is Rome before Christ established his Kingdom at the Cross, so you need to tell us what does the ten toes mixed with iron and clay represented? Satan's kingdom didn't end with the fall of Rome anyway. Satan will come out of the bottomless pit and attack God's kingdom prior to Second Coming. Therefore, there were no ten toes in time of Rome. Its today! And it is not what you think it is!

As far as what they really represent, I’m making my best judgment based off scripture.

Here you go:

Dan 2:42-44
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The kingdom of Christ did not consume ALL these kingdom until the Second Coming becasue Satan will have a kingdom after coming out of bottomless pit to attack God's congregation. Therefore the ten toes speaks about the great tribulation period prior to Second Coming, not Rome.

Dan 7:7-9
[7] After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
[8] I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
[9] I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Notice the fourth beast has iron teeth, just like the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 have the strength of iron! It devoured and destroyed the tesitmony of God's people. And like Daniel 2, this beast is different (diverse) from the first three before it. Tell me why?

And notice that after ten horns, the little horn, will plucked the three of first horns (10 horns). What does it means? Isn't number three in Scirpture signifies the will and purprose of God that Satan will take over His Kingdom? Consider wisely:

Rev 17:16-17
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

See? This is what little horn plucked up THREE of first horns signifies! It is when God allowed Satan to be the ruler of HIS CONGREGATION for a short time prior to Second Coming AS A JUDGMENT because of her unfaithfulness (harlot). The ten horns represent the power of False prophets and Christs they receive from Satan, the dragon, who hates the church who she once represented God! By destroying the truth with teeth of Iron!

As you can see, this has NOTHING to do with Rome, Revised Roman Empire, or Iran or Russia. NOTHING! Forget about carnal empires fantasy! It is all about the spiritual battle between two kingdoms. Satan's kingdom and God's kingdom!

They are the gentile nations that would trample old covenant Jerusalem until Christ died , rose again, and ascended even until it’s final destruction In 70ad. Under the new covenant Jerusalem is not earthly, it is heavenly and can no longer be trampled.

The old testament congregation of Israel fell along with the death of Christ when the Jews (people of the prince) put Christ, their messiah the prince, to death. This is when their kingdom representative was taken from them and gave to the Church. Satan was bound and cast out of THIS old testament congregation where he has accused brethern all day long so that salvation now come through the church all over the world...as long as Satan was bound! Selah! Once all people God wanted to seal has been sealed, the testimony of Two Witnesses for that purpose is finished, and the beast comes out of the bottomless pit and PREVAIL over God's Congregation... for a short season before Christ returns. Therefore, the fourth king of Daniel 2 and 7 was not talking about Rome, but Satan's great tribulation spiritual kingdom through men with spirit of antichrist, prior to Second Coming.

He interpreted the dream for the king explaining the symbols of the vision. Where did he mention Satan?

Of course, King Nebuchadnezzar THOUGHT Daniel was talking about him. But God did not. If you will compare this with Daniel 7, 8, 9 and 11 and Revelation 13, 17, 18, and 20, you will see that God was obviously talked about someone else much powerful than Nebuchadnezzar himself!

Satan’s kingdoms are not his to give. Satan’s authority comes from God.

Satan did have the authority to give the kingdom to Christ if he worships him. He tempted Christ. But He rebukes him and has rejected all of the temptations. At this moment, Satan has suffered a failure and his kingdom become.... "inferior" to the strength Satan once enjoyed! Christ did take away Satan's dominion but was allowed to prolonged for a season and time, Daniel 7:12. IN other words, Satan's deceiving power was removed, but restrain him in bottomless pit until the building of His church (New Testament congregation) is finished, then he is allowed to come out of the bottomless pit and attach God's congregation once again just like he did with the old testament congregation. Something to think about.
 
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TribulationSigns

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2Peter2:12

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Yes and Paul also wrote:

1Co 15:32
[32] If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

Here, God defined the beast as the body of men with the spirit of antichrist. Not one "a" supernatural man.

Revelation 12, apart from the first five verses which identity the woman in the rest of the chapter as Israel, presents the entire 7 years in front of it. The 1260 days before the war in heaven. And the time, times, half times after the war in heaven. The second heaven.

Private interpretation. The woman is the congregation of Israel, started with Israel in the Old Testament and she continued after the Cross into the New Testament with the church as representative of God's kingdom on earth.

There is no such thing as 7 years or 1,260 literal days.

The beast persona is still in the bottomless pit at that time, before the 7 years begin.

Private Interpretation. Scripture does not say that. Again, 7 years is a man-made theory based on grossly misinterpretation of the final week of Daniel.

In Revelation 17, the sixth king is ruling, at John's time, first century. The beast persona is still in the bottomless pit, then. The beast persona is not out of the bottomless pit until Revelation 13.

Rev 17:8-11
[8] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
[9] And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
[10] And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
[11] And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Satan, not a human king, is the sixth king (as with all other kings) is "is not" in verse 8 and 11. And is also "one is" in verse 10. The reason sixth king "is not" is because Satan's power was taken and cast into bottomless pit so that Christ's church, established at the Cross, could be built for the next 2,000 years. Okay? Once the building of the church with fulness of Gentiles be coming in, Satan will come out of the bottomless pit as 7th king and will contiune for a short space. However, during the reign of 7th king, the beast that was, is not, is an eighth. This is the "LITTLE HORN" the power that Satan will rule in God's congregation during that reign! Remember the little horn comes AFTER the 10 horns (7th king).

It may not be making sense to you because you have not analyzed (at least not correctly) the crowns on the heads and horns in Chapters 17, 12, and 13.

Really? I already explained in Scripture that the crowns again illustrate they reign with him. For example, crowns are for kings. The heads represent authority. And the horns represent power. That is it. When the horn receives a crown, it simply means that they reign with Satan. But no, you want all of them to simply represent a man that you want to figure out who with world history or current event.

The changing of the crowns corresponds to when the vision in the chapters are timestamped.

chapter 17 - the vision is timestamped the first century.
chapter 12 - the vision timestamped as the 7 years are about to begin
chapter 13 - the vision timestampled as the last 42 months of the 7 years about to begin.

Time out. You got the horns all confused beacuse of your private interepreation of the beast. Let me explain more about the horns and its a long proof!

The horns used to represent the power of Satan, as for example the Beast with 10 horns, etc. Here are some examples about horn being power or strength:

Psalms 89:17
  • "For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted."
People don't literally have a horn to be lifted up strengthening them of course, but the horn is used here to convey the sense of believers being exalted in the glory of "His" strength. We are lifted up in His strength (Psalms 46:1; 81:1) rather than our own. e.g.:

Lamentations 2:3
  • "He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."
Here God uses the symbol in saying he would cut off the horn of Israel, meaning He would break off their "Power" so that they will be defeated. Again, the horn there is used as a symbol of their power being broken

Deuteronomy 33:17
  • "His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh."
Here again, the horn is used to symbolize the power and strength of the Bullock that enables him to overcome or push against the people.

Lamentations 2:17
  • "The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries."
In this passage God uses the horn to signify that he has taken away their strength or power of Israel as judgment, and has exalted the horn (Power) of their adversaries to overcome them. In other words, while (verse 3) cutting off the horn of Israel means they no longer had Power to stand against their enemies, here in this passage, setting up the horn of their adversaries (verse 17) means that the enemies now had the Power to conquer Israel. Clearly the horns there signify Power or strength. We see that when a horn is broken or cut off, it is a signification that one's power has been broken or cut off. Whether used in conjunction with a crown, where it's man's ability to rule (as a king), or for something to be unable to stand or to have strength before his enemy, that cutting off of a horn signified the cutting off of power. Again:

Daniel 8:7
  • "And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no Power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand."
Again, clearly and unambiguously God uses the horn to symbolize the power of the Ram. When the two horns were broken, that left him with no more powerto stand before the he goat. This is what those broken "horns" symbolized, broken power. And the same goes for the power of evil when it was broken.

Daniel 8:8
  • "Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven."
The great horn allowed the wicked he goat to push with power so that the Ram could not stand before him. i.e., it 'symbolized' his great power. But now we see that likewise, when this He goat's horn was broken, it also symbolizes his power being broken or taken away wherein other forces rose up.

We see the same scenario in Revelation chapter 17 where there is this Beast who had ten horns. Here the number ten signifies fullness, and the horns signify power. So this imagery is to illustrate the fullness of time these kings rule with "power" along with the Beast.

Revelation 17:12
  • "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive Power as kings one hour with the beast."
The horns once again signifying the power that they received to rule with the beast for this short period. Another passage where this illustration of horns signifying power can be seen in 1st Kings.

1st Kings 22:11
  • "And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made him horns of iron: and he said, Thus saith the LORD, With these shalt thou push the Syrians, until thou have consumed them."
Here God uses the imagery of horns of iron to illustrate the great power of them by which these men could push the Syrians and defeat them. The God authored and recurring theme of horns is that they symbolize the power of whatever is in view. Likewise, the lamb of Revelation chapter five verse six has seven horns to illustrate its power.

The number seven illustrates the completeness or totality of whatever is in view, and thus this represents the complete power of Christ as He is the Lamb of God that was slain. As the sacrifice lamb (as in the 4 horns of the Altar), He was the appointed sacrifice who had complete or total power. Christ illustrated This complete power Himself.

Matthew 28:18
  • "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."
1st Peter 3:22
  • "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."
So the Lamb with 7 horns signifies Jesus Christ as He was sacrificed on the altar of God, with the complete power of God for the atonement. This was the mirror witness of God in speaking of the power of the sacrifice in the imagery of the 4 horns of the altar.

Leviticus 4:7
  • "And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation."
Or when it is used in breaking the power of idolatry in breaking off the horns of the altar.

Amos 3:14
  • "That in the day that I shall visit the transgressions of Israel upon him I will also visit the altars of Bethel: and the horns of the altar shall be cut off, and fall to the ground."
By this God is illustrating that he is taking away its power or strength. Hope that helps a little that you will learn the horns signifies power.. Not man, kings, president, etc!
 
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Douggg

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This makes the most sense and I think I would agree with you.

Nero seems to be the likely candidate of the 6th king.

It just seems to get a little foggy after that: the 7th king and then the 8th, which is also the beast. Plus the 10 kings who have no kingdoms....just doesn’t add up nicely, you know?

I understand totally what you mean.

The six kings are of the 4th kingdom. The seventh king is end times, the leader of the 4th kingdom in the end times. Which seems to be the EU. The person is called the little horn in Daniel 7.

The same person after he is killed and brought back to life in Revelation 13, possessed by the "beast" persona in the bottomless pit at present, becomes the eighth king of the 4th kingdom.

It then becomes fairly simple to understand.

The person, as the little horn, becomes the 7th king of the 4th empire
The person, as the beast, possessed, becomes the 8th king of the 4th empire

But here is the complication that spins everyone out, just about. "the Antichrist" That term. The most misused, misunderstood, term in eschatology and secular world.

The Antichrist is the person only while he is the King of Israel, illegitimate. Most, generally all, people don't see it that way, for one thing it doesn't occur to them to see the person other than the horrible, one world dictator, and his rise to power. Most people label the beast as the Antichrist - in error but not realizing it.

To understand that arch villian of the end times, it has to be understood that he goes through a series of progressions, making decision all along the way, that he ends up becoming the beast in Revelation 13. He ends up going through a series of roles. Being the Antichrist is just one of them.


The roles in sequence are....

First he become the leader of the EU, the littler horn, 7th king of the fourth kingdom,

Then he becomes the prince who shall come, following Gog/Magog,

Then he becomes the Antichrist, by being anointed the King of Israel, perceived messiah,

Then he commits the transgression of desolation, revealing himself as the man of sin, ending his time as the King of Israel, the Antichrist.... as the Jews reject him from continuing as their King.

Then he is killed and brought back to life, becoming the persona of the beast, possessed, and the 8th king of the fourth kingdom, as the ten leaders of the EU pledge their kingdom's power and resources to him.
____________________________________________________________________________

So as you can see being the Antichrist is sandwiched between being the 7th king of the fourth empire and being the 8th king of the fourth empire.

Whether the person ever attests to his Julio-Claudian bloodline connection is not known. And it may be only by namesake he is referred to as Caesar, popularized by the press. We don't know.

________________________________________________________________________
Regarding the ten kings, the 7th and 8th kings being associated with the fourth kingdom, you might be interested in my post #73.

Daniel 11 & 12 historically explained step by step.
 
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TribulationSigns

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The six kings are of the 4th kingdom. The seventh king is end times, the leader of the 4th kingdom in the end times. Which seems to be the EU. The person is called the little horn in Daniel 7.

The same person after he is killed and brought back to life in Revelation 13, possessed by the "beast" persona in the bottomless pit at present, becomes the eighth king of the 4th kingdom.

It then becomes fairly simple to understand.

The person, as the little horn, becomes the 7th king of the 4th empire
The person, as the beast, possessed, becomes the 8th king of the 4th empire

But here is the complication that spins everyone out, just about. "the Antichrist" That term. The most misused, misunderstood, term in eschatology and secular world.

The Antichrist is the person only while he is the King of Israel, illegitimate. Most, generally all, people don't see it that way, for one thing it doesn't occur to them to see the person other the horrible, one world dictator, and his rise to power. Most people label the beast as the Antichrist - in error but not realizing it.

To understand that arch villian of the end times, it has to be understood that he goes through a series of progressions, making decision all along the way, that he ends up becoming the beast in Revelation 13. He ends up going through a series of roles. Being the Antichrist is just one of them.


The roles in sequence are....

First he become the leader of the EU, the littler horn, 7th king of the fourth kingdom,

Then he becomes the prince who shall come, following Gog/Magog,

Then he becomes the Antichrist, by being anointed the King of Israel, perceived messiah,

Then he commits the transgression of desolation, revealing himself as the man of sin, ending his time as the King of Israel, the Antichrist.... as the Jews reject him from continuing as their King.

Then he is killed and brought back to life, becoming the persona of the beast, possessed, and the 8th king of the fourth kingdom.
____________________________________________________________________________

So as you can see being the Antichrist is sandwiched between being the 7th king of the fourth empire and being the 8th king of the fourth empire.

Whether the person ever attests to his Julio-Claudian bloodline connection is not known. And it may be only by namesake he is referred to as Caesar, popularized by the press. We don't know.

________________________________________________________________________
Regarding the ten kings, the 7th and 8th kings being associated with the fourth kingdom, you might be interested in my post #73.

Daniel 11 & 12 historically explained step by step.

What a load of private interpretation. Too many speculations. Nothing in Scripture support that!
 
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Douggg

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Yes and Paul also wrote:

1Co 15:32
[32] If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

Here, God defined the beast as the body of men with the spirit of antichrist. Not one "a" supernatural man.
You had written..."Nowhere in Scripture that God has defined beast as man."

To show you wrong, I provided you with 2Peter2:12, which Peter likens certain men to being beasts. Can't you simply admit that you were wrong? And be done with it.
 
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