SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT vs NEW TESTAMENT

Blood Bought 1953 said:

God looks at us through “the spectacles of Christ” if we are Believers.....we are “ made perfect” by the Shed Blood of Christ.Christ took my wretchedness and gave me His Righteousness. What a deal ! What a Savior!

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Agree, we are the spirits of just men made perfect, if we belong to Christ.
Christ's NT salvation in His blood is wonderful and exceedingly great.
Hebrews 13
The Glorious Company
18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stonedor shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Arsenios said:

Do you have anything from the Bible on these Spectacles?

Arsenios

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Of course not.....what is it you really want to know?

Arsenios said:

God willing that will be worthwhile...

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Amen to that.

We are talking past each other here. My question is not about Who saves, or whether the means of Salvation is through men having faith, even faith in Christ... It is about the Promise... The OT Saints SAW in the future the Promise which they themselves did not receive... And we now live AFTER the coming of that Promise... So that there IS a difference in the two Salvations, even though both are through faith in Christ... The Faith of the Israelites in God-not-yet-Incarnate produced one Salvation, and the Faith of Christians in God-Incarnate... Each resulted in the Salvation of men in their lives while they were living on earth... And in those lives lived, they are different, for Paul writes in Hebrews: The righteous men of the Old Covenant witness, the OT, ALL of them received NOT the Promise - Not one of them was made PERFECT... (11:39-40)

So the question persists: What IS this "perfecting" which we now have that we did not have prior to Christ...??

I mean, for one thing, John the Baptist, whom God bore witness as being the greatest of ALL the OT Saints, himself went to hell...

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I beg to differ. The Promise was already given by God to Adam & Eve, and Abraham. The OT believers believe this promise given by God though they did not live to see its fulfillment. But nevertheless were still save by it through Faith.

Hebrews 11 starts off, 1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. So because they did not witness Incarnation, life, death, and resurrection. The OT saints were still saved by it. You say two contradictory things here. You said you agree with OT saints being saved by faith, even Faith in Christ. Then you say the OT saints saw the future promise, but they themselves did not receive. This is what I disagree with. Because Christ is preached from Genesis to Revelation. I pointed out how Abraham & David were saved; by Faith in the Promised Seed.

You mention the God-not-yet-Incarnate produced one Salvation, and the Faith of Christians in God-Incarnate motif. This is not two Salvations but One; by Christ through Faith Alone.

And in Hebrews 11:17, Abraham who DID receive the promises from God is mention here. 17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son,

In the beginning of Genesis 15 it begins with the Covenant of Grace that God makes with Abraham.


1After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” 2But Abram said, “O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.” 4And behold, the word of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” 5And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Here it is the Promise that the Promise Heir will come through Abraham, and the saved will be like all the number of stars in the sky. Abraham trusted and believe God, and counted Abraham as righteousness! Here it is plain as day, Arsenios. So to say they did not receive the promise is incorrect. I will agree they did witness it, but they did believe it, which counted them all as righteousness before God!

BTW, were not the OT Saints in Paradise, when they died? Or were they in torment and being punished in Hell because they did not receive the Promise? Because they were Pre-Incarnation?

Is there no difference between prophesy and history? Between OT and NT?

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In respects to what? Salvation? Christ?

He is speaking of pagan conscience vs Levitical and Mosaic Law...

Here is the passages in Romans 2: 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law, is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Let me give you the literal translation of the text.

BYZ –
οταν γαρ εθνη
For whenever the Gentiles

τα μη νομον εχοντα
Those not Law having

φυσει τα του νομου ποιη
By nature things of the Law should be doing

ουτοι νομον μη εχοντες
The ones Law not having...

εαυτοις εισιν νομος
To themselves ARE Law...

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Then you have a issue here. God judgement comes against sinners, who have not kept God's Law. And where there is no Law; there is sin. If no sin, then no judgement can be rendered. But this is not what Paul's says in Romans 2. Paul says just because they were not chosen to receive the Law, does not mean they have an excuse. Why? don't they have any excuse says Paul. Because the Law is 'WRITTEN' on their hearts, and their consciences bear witness against them, accusing them. Its like when non-Christians, steal, kill, lie, they feel guilty of it. Just like little kids, who misbehave, they know they did something wrong. Because its written on their hearts, and their consciences point it out.

Yes - Sin is the basis of God's judgement of man, not the Law for those not having it... For those not having the Law will be judged by their conscience... He is not saying, as you seem to be suggesting here, that the Gentile conscience is the equivalent of the Mosaic Law and should be cast out, is he?

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I said, God's Law is written on their hearts, so they cannot tell God at the Judgement Seat. God you never gave us the Law to obey and follow, so we are free from any judgement. This is not a technicality for which to get off the hook here, Arsenios. Paul states that the 'Law written on hearts' and their own consciences are what are holding accountable to God, follow?

He will not be judged by the Law, but by his own conscience... And indeed, this is the whole point of the Law that the Jews did not embrace - eg The movement of the external Law into the Heart... That is an arduous journey, as I am sure you know...

Paul argues against the Levitical Law, and in favor of the conscience. Remember when he wrote: "We are holding the Mystery of the Faith in a pure conscience..."? And where Christ taught: "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall perceive God."?

The Levitical Law was only the possession of the Jews... The Gospel of Christ is the presence of the Kingdom of Heaven, attained through repentance and by Grace, and the Law is now fulfilled, and needs to be superceded... The Jews thought that circumcision should be retained, and also the Levitical Laws of ritual cleansing etc etc... It seems reasonable... Paul fought that idea tooth and nail, and convicted Peter himself of the hypocrisy which the Law engenders... The Law Paul opposes is not the conscience of the Gentiles but the Levitical Law of the Jews...

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I do agree with some of what you wrote here. But the Mosaic Law is what Paul also argued against as far as attempting to fulfill it with righteousness for salvation. Here in Romans 10 Paul writes, 5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them [The whole thing]. He says the same thing in Galatians 310For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”

What does Paul mean here? If you decide to follow the Law, then you must follow every one jot or one tittle of the Law; the whole Law must be fulfilled perfectly. Which is why Christ the Last Adam came to fulfill it for us!

Good... Then ONLY the Jews have it...

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Thank you.

It is the Church, and not the Levitical Law, that now disciples us into Christ... The Apostles:

"Go therefore, disciple all the nations, teaching them to be carefully observing all that I have commanded you, baptizing them..."

The Levitical Law is no longer our teacher - The Church is now that discipler... As Paul writes: "Obey them that have the rule over you, as ones having to give an account to God for your soul..."

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We Must UPHOLD the Law; which drives sinners to Christ! In the Reformed Faith, the Law is not abolish, but a guide for the Christian Life. And the Gospel the center of the Christian Life!

And God Bless Reverend Billie Graham!

Arsenios

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Amen, God Bless Billie Graham.

The Old Testament tells a story that only finds its completion in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the offspring of the woman who will crush the head of the serpent. Jesus is the ark that protects the faithful remnant from judgement. Jesus is the fulfillment of all the blessings promised to Abraham. He is the greater Isaac, the beloved Son of the Father, offered as a sacrifice, who was not spared from the knife. Jesus is the stairway to Jacob saw in his dream on which God comes down to earth. Jesus is the greater Joseph, the One whose suffering put him in place to become Savior to all who come to him for food amid the famine of this world.

Jesus is the reality to which all of the sacrifices and offering and festivals point. He is the fulfillment of the Tabernacle and Temple, making his home among us. He is greater Moses who brings his people out of slavery of sin, the greater Israel who is not disobedient in the wilderness, the greater son of David whose kingdom will last forever, the greater Solomon who is the Prince of peace. He is the weeping prophet, the greater Jonah who runs toward sinners rather than away from them, the Bridegroom, the Branch, Isaiah's child who is born.

Jesus often said that he fulfillment specific OT passages. At the beginning of his ministry, he went to the synagogue in Nazareth and stood up to read from the OT scroll of Isaiah:

Those who heard Jesus say this were amazed, but ultimately infuriated, because they understood exactly what he was claiming.

Yet According to Jesus, it is not just individual prophecies or passages that point him. It is the Old Testament Scriptures as a whole. Jesus said to the religious leaders, "You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!" (John 5:39). Jesus was saying that the entirety of the OT--its history, its promises, its people, its laws, its ceremonies, its songs--all of it is about him.

Perhaps the clearest and most intriguing thing Jesus said about fulfilling the Scriptures came after his resurrection, as he walked along with two of his disciples on the road to Emmaus. They didn't recognize that it was Jesus who was walking with them, and they began telling him how heartbroken they were. They had hoped Jesus was the Messiah and now, in light of his crucifixion, it seemed their hopes had been dashed.

When I read this, I am disappointed that the account stops there. This is a conversation I would liked to have listened in on in full! How amazing it must have been to have Jesus himself walk through Genesis, Leviticus, Judges, Psalms, Proverbs, and Isaiah, saying, "This is about me....This is about the work I came to do....This is about the mercy I came to lavish on sinners....This is about the sufficiency of my salvation....This is about my deliverance from slavery to sin....This is about judgment that was poured out on me at the cross...."

Later Jesus appeared to the rest of the disciples and said, "When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44). Then, once again, he did what he had done before. Luke records: "Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" (Luke 24:25).

When we read through the sermons in Acts and through the rest of the NT, we realize that those who learned how to read the OT from Jesus went on to present the gospel of Jesus in the same manner he did--not beginning with His birth or his teachings or even His death and resurrection, but beginning with the Old Testament. The NT writers teach us how to read and understand the entire Old Testament with gospel eyes.

It is my prayer that you will, along with me, stand back in wonder at the magnificence of God's plan for redemption and at his providence and power to bring about that plan. I hope that, along with me, you'll discover more reasons to trust the whole of Scripture and to love the God of Scripture. I hope your mind will be challenged and your heart will be broken by the beauty of Christ on display through the whole of the Old Testament. And I hope that as we look together at how the Old Testament prepares us for the person and works of Christ, we will move closer to worshipping him according to his marvelous and matchless worth.

Amen!

In Christ our Covenantal Savior and King!

Arsenios said:

Do you have anything from the Bible on these Spectacles?

Arsenios

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I have a couple of passages.

Phil 3:8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

2 Cor. 5:21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

This in the Reformed Faith is called the Marvelous exchange. The double imputation; the sin of the sinner imputed to Christ, and Christ's Righteousness imputed to the sinner.

1 Cor. 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

Arsenios said:

Then your argument is with Paul writing here:

Heb 11:39
And these all,
having obtained a good report through faith,
received NOT the Promise:

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I'm fine and have no arguments with Paul. In regards to our disagreement about the Promise. Here is Hebrews 6:


13For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” 15And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise. 16For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. 17So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. 19We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, 20where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

The Old Testament Saints were saved differently from us...
Theirs was a Salvation that did NOT receive the Promise...
And my question keeps coming back to you:
What IS that Promise that they did NOT receive that WE DO receive?

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Arsenios, why the flip flop? You said in a early post, that you agree that the OT saints were saved by Faith, even faith in Christ. Read Hebrews 6:


13For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” 15And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise. 16For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. 17So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. 19We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, 20where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

God made a promise to Abraham and these passages tie in with Genesis 15:


1After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” 2But Abram said, “O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.” 4And behold, the word of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” 5And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

How much of the Levitical Law do you uphold?

I do not know anyone who upholds any of it, except Orthodox Jews...

Arsenios

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Here Paul will answer it for you.


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Which means Arsenios, that the Law's curse and sin has no dominion over us any more. We have died with Christ, and been made alive in Christ, so that we too might walk in newness of life.

Amen!

Arsenios said:

I walk, live and breathe that wonder...
The Mystery of the Faith of Christ is entered in purity of Heart in a wonder past understanding...
I do not stand back in wonder - I simply stand... It is as much a part of me as breathing...
"If ever I should forget you O Jerusalem..."

Arsenios

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Like or dislike it?

Arsenios said:

Nor am I surprised!



Let me give you the literal of 9

BYZ –
και ευρεθω εν αυτω
And I should be found in Him

μη εχων εμην δικαιοσυνην την εκ νομου
Not having MY righteousness (eg) that from Law

αλλα την δια πιστεως χριστου την εκ θεου δικαιοσυνην
But that through Christ's Faith that (is) from God righteousness
[But instead that righteousness (which is) through Christ's Faith from God

επι τη πιστει
Upon that Faith.
[eg Upon the Faith of Christ]

The meaning shifts into clarity with the literal translation...

The Faith of Christ is the Faith He discipled to His Disciples through whom it is discipled to this day and hour in the Apostolic Churches throughout the world... THAT is the Faith he is describing - Not one's merely personal belief in God and Christ, but the Faith delivered once for all to the Saints...

Arsenios

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Your argument is with Paul not me.

Arsenios said:

Look at the face of my Avatar...

Now of course, if your spectacles are out of reach and you are hearing my typed words on a voice-over device, then you may be pleased to note that I live in a profound, and, as some have been known to think, an almost irrational Joy that has very little to do with hardly anything that the world gives...

Like or dislike???

Only in America...

Peace and Joy beyond measure...

Like or dislike?

Lord have Mercy!

I mean, how, my Brother, could you even ask?

This historic and Apostolic Faith of Christ is not in that end of the pool...

It is not even in a pool...

Not even a tide-pool...


Arsenios

Arsenios

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Wow, no problem! Just asking.

Arsenios said:

I simply asked you what the Promise is that Paul received but John the Baptist did not...

Arsenios

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Asked and answered. I have showed you through Scripture that God did make a Promise to the OT saints. I did not know what else you want?