Thats in-depth and makes sense. How does one cope with the feelings that it appears the individual is walking away unscathed?
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Does God really avenge us when others do evil against us
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Good insight! That's what I wonder about. My husband allowed another Christian to get away with causing serious medical harm to our son because of the verse "do not take a believer to court before an unbeliever." The perpetrator got off scot-free and our son was left with a serious problem. It has twisted in my gut the foolishness of my husband's decision. We should have held the Christian responsible. I spoke with a lawyer who yelled at me and said "You people had a great case here and threw it away!"
So am I to believe God will avenge my son and hold the Christian accountable? And how would I deal with feeling my husband let my son down?
This is just one of many dilemmas I've had where people have done great evil - even Christians.
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Wow! That is quite remarkable! Why doesn't God do this all the time? If only I had seen God do the same I wouldn't ask this question.
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That's how I wish things always turned out. What do you do when things don't happen this way - just dismiss questions from your mind about why God hasn't acted?
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That's insightful - how are we to handle it when a believer has done great evil towards you - similar to how David had Bathsheba's spouse killed - and you don't see God act? It seems as if His promises are lies.
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I wholeheartedly believe that we aren't forced to continue to associate with someone who does evil towards us. I never had that feeling that I had to continue in a relationship - I think it would be unhealthy. But I find it troubling that God's promises don't seem true - people have done evil and seem to skate off and it's hard to stomach.
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Of course He does, in this life and/or at Judgment Day.
The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of Evil. God allows evil for a purpose. We don't always see His purpose immediately. Sometimes it takes years before we see. We look back at our lives and see how evil led to lessons to learn. These are that we appreciate what good is. Without evil, we would not really know God's attributes, the fruit of the Spirit, we wouldn't understand. Mercy, forgiveness, faith, hope, peace and even love would not be understood without experiencing evil. Life would be bliss, la te da. Some children for a a while are sheltered from evil, protected, and this sheltering is actually harmful to them because they get spoiled and don't realize what they have. No parent can shelter them forever or even from their own faults and evil.
Vengeance is Mine, says the Lord!
A neighbor coveted my wife and when I was away, got intimate with her. When I returned, she gave this story of wanting to separate. Confused, I said, let's go see a counselor and keep it together. Two weeks later, a friend told me to open up my eyes, your wife is making it with Big John. The nights she claimed she was over her girlfriends house, she was in fact with him, two doors away. I looked for her car -- it was parked on the other street -- Gotcha. I chased her down that morning and ended it. Our marriage was over. Actually, the apparent evil relieved me of the burden I had with this women who was also into drugs and couldn't control her drinking either. It was like a burden lifted, it was easy to say good-bye, because I no longer had to worry about her. This fling of hers was just that and she tried to get back with me, but it was too late. Two years later, at the young age of 38, Big John died of stomach cancer. God works in mysterious ways and uses evil for a purpose and sometimes it leads to good. In her case, she went into a downward spiral for many years and learned some hard lessons, but lived.
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I have seen criminals suffer. I have seen violent people confused and lost. I remember reading about two men who robbed a convenience store in Thailand. They spent their loot on drugs, overdosed, then died within hours of their crime. If one thrives from illicit gains, they will not last. If one suffers persecution for doing good, the persecution will not last. God will endure and support the righteous.
Sometimes God will forgive, like God forgave Paul. At first Paul was stricken with blindness after arresting Christians, but Paul was repenting after Jesus demanded he stop his persecutions.
A tax collector in Jericho named Zacchaeus was honored after he promised to give half of his money to the poor and to pay back those he had defrauded (Luke 19). God was forgiving people. Some who went to listen to the teachings of Jesus were able to live better lives for obeying his teachings.
It did not go well for some who rejected God's way. Judas Iscariot had to commit suicide after he realized what he had done.
Herod was giving a speech in Caesarea that was inspired by God. God inspired some sinners for the common good. Herod allowed the public to worship him instead of give the credit to God. Herod became ill and died (Acts 12).
Peter and his followers agreed to share everything in common. A couple wanted the blessing of being part of this group, but did not contribute what was required. They held back a large portion for themselves. Ananias and Sapphira soon died (Acts 5).
God will forgive whoever can be forgiven. Those who will not repent will perish. Whether it is vengeance or not, who could say? There is a saying, "You can not take it (money) with you when you go." At a funeral they said, "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust." It is better to forgive than to walk the path of vengeance, retaliation and violence.
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~Anastasia~
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One question to consider - did the other Christian act negligently, or in ignorance they should have been responsible not to do?
We absolutely MUST forgive others, regardless if their intent was evil or not, regardless if they are sorry or not. That is for our own spiritual good.
However, we may also have a responsibility to make sure that someone who routinely puts others to harm be stopped. We ought not do it in a spirit of spite, but forgiveness does not mean allowing someone to continue to hurt others. In fact, we allow them to damage their own souls, and others. The actual loving thing to everyone concerned is to prevent harm.
But spite and vengeance poison our own souls. We should have no part of that. (Realizing of course that we are all human and have various struggles - this may take spiritual work to achieve. But God helps us.)
God be with you.
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AmusingMargaret
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Justice is mentioned over 500 times in the Bible. The Word tells us that God loves justice. The foundation of His throne is justice and righteousness. Jesus, Himself, called justice the weightier matter. I'd say that justice is very important, and He will not let an injustice go unanswered. It's our job to forgive those who do us wrong. God will take care of the situation, even if we never see the "pay-back."
Two points on forgiveness...forgiveness is for our own selves, not for the offender, and forgiveness does not necessarily mean we have to restore a toxic relationship.
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AmusingMargaret
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The Bible says not to sue your brother (I take that to mean fellow Christians). I don't believe the Bible says anywhere we have to be a doormat to anyone.
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I really disagree with this mindset. My therapist, who is an Episcopalian, has said that forgiveness and reconciliation is much more complicated. It's an ideal, but it is not always possible to realize, nor is it necessarily healthy to force oneself or others to be forgiving. God invites us to forgive, but he does not necessarily require it.
Some Christians have a history of teaching a theology that is complicit in oppression, so it does not surprise me that they would teach having anger at injustice is "pride".
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~Anastasia~
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God does command us to forgive. Most directly, in teaching us to pray, Jesus tells us to pray "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" and if that wasn't plain enough, He then says plainly that we must forgive if we want to be forgiven, and that if we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us.
HOWEVER ... yes, I realize it is difficult and may be complex, especially with deep wounds. We cannot simply say "I forgive" and poof - it's done - in such cases. Depending on the situation it can actually take years (sometimes many years) of working through to reach this point. And it's also possible to have forgiven, then something else pricks the wound and stirs up those issues again, and we have a little more spiritual work to do maybe.
It's not that God demands perfection from us. As long as we DESIRE to forgive, and are making an effort to do so, I think that is what Christ had in mind. Such a heart is open to receiving the grace of God.
What we must not do is hold our unforgiveness close to our heart, nurturing it, feeding it, allowing bitterness to take hold. I've seen people do that. Such a heart is not open to the grace of God, and is in terrible spiritual peril.
Reconciliation (as in restoring interaction) is a different matter than forgiveness. Some people are simply toxic, or emotionally dangerous, or abusive, or what have you. It's important that we work to let go of that bitter desire that wished them harm to "pay for" whatever harm they do us, but that does NOT mean we have to welcome them like a snake into our bosom and give them another chance to poison us. It might be possible in some cases to reconcile. But not always. We must be wise as well. We are told to live in peace with all men -- as far as it is up to us. But there are at least two people in every equation and sometimes the other person won't allow peace, reconciliation, or aren't safe for us.
If someone shoulders past me in a crowd and gets a better view, or pulls into a parking space i had my eye on, or somebody gets an award I thought I deserved instead - something along those lines, and anger rises up in me as a result - that is nothing but pride. The indignant anger at my "rights" being violated, me not being given my "proper and due place". The proper response to that kind of offense is to immediately forgive the offender, and I really need to think about what my anger says about my spiritual state and look towards humility.
I'm not saying it's pride to be upset if a con man steals the livelihood of a low-income widow or some other case where real injustice has been done, if that's how you understood my post.
We can always look to Christ as our example in things. Remember He forgave, even while He was being mistreated. He never insisted on His own right (though as God Himself, His "rights" are infinite!), yet He displayed anger or rebuked in the case of actual injustice.
It's hard to answer the question without concrete examples, because we can be misunderstood. But I hope I've at least been a little more clear.
HOWEVER ... yes, I realize it is difficult and may be complex, especially with deep wounds. We cannot simply say "I forgive" and poof - it's done - in such cases. Depending on the situation it can actually take years (sometimes many years) of working through to reach this point. And it's also possible to have forgiven, then something else pricks the wound and stirs up those issues again, and we have a little more spiritual work to do maybe.
It's not that God demands perfection from us. As long as we DESIRE to forgive, and are making an effort to do so, I think that is what Christ had in mind. Such a heart is open to receiving the grace of God.
What we must not do is hold our unforgiveness close to our heart, nurturing it, feeding it, allowing bitterness to take hold. I've seen people do that. Such a heart is not open to the grace of God, and is in terrible spiritual peril.
Reconciliation (as in restoring interaction) is a different matter than forgiveness. Some people are simply toxic, or emotionally dangerous, or abusive, or what have you. It's important that we work to let go of that bitter desire that wished them harm to "pay for" whatever harm they do us, but that does NOT mean we have to welcome them like a snake into our bosom and give them another chance to poison us. It might be possible in some cases to reconcile. But not always. We must be wise as well. We are told to live in peace with all men -- as far as it is up to us. But there are at least two people in every equation and sometimes the other person won't allow peace, reconciliation, or aren't safe for us.
If someone shoulders past me in a crowd and gets a better view, or pulls into a parking space i had my eye on, or somebody gets an award I thought I deserved instead - something along those lines, and anger rises up in me as a result - that is nothing but pride. The indignant anger at my "rights" being violated, me not being given my "proper and due place". The proper response to that kind of offense is to immediately forgive the offender, and I really need to think about what my anger says about my spiritual state and look towards humility.
I'm not saying it's pride to be upset if a con man steals the livelihood of a low-income widow or some other case where real injustice has been done, if that's how you understood my post.
We can always look to Christ as our example in things. Remember He forgave, even while He was being mistreated. He never insisted on His own right (though as God Himself, His "rights" are infinite!), yet He displayed anger or rebuked in the case of actual injustice.
It's hard to answer the question without concrete examples, because we can be misunderstood. But I hope I've at least been a little more clear.
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black.hawk
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Cancer of the stomach could be purely coincidental, or because John had committed adultery, which is a sin of course and we know that the Wages of Sin is Death (Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23).
A friend of mine left a religious cult after 3 and a half years of hell. They tried to discourage him from leaving, and told him that his future partner would suffer from breast cancer (or other ailments) should he break his marriage vows inside the 'church' - As it is presumed that his new situation outside the cult would an adulterous relationship with somebody whom God did not approve.
Apparently, they cited case histories of ex-members to support their ominous warning not to leave the church.
A case in point would be the example of Steve Hassan who was a leader in the Unification Church until his road traffic accident, which rendered him unconscious with both his legs broken and in hospital.
Whilst in hospital he had no further contact with members of the cult, which enabled his dad to hire an exit counsellor to 'deprogramme' his son from the cult.
Subsequently, Steve obtained his MBA from the Harvard Business School and he himself became America's foremost exit counsellor and one of the Chief adversaries of the church.
However, he did briefly mention that his fiance outside the church had suddenly died, which could be purely coincidental, or because he had broken his marriage vows in the cult.
Of course, the cult will use examples such as Steve as propaganda for the sake of "moral high ground", and to discourage its members from leaving the Church.
They will use Steve et al to 'demonstrate' that their leader is the "Messiah, Son of God, and the Second Coming of Christ"; since he was allegedly punished because he left the Church (in opposition to "God's will"), and the death of his spouse/fiancé simply goes to show that their god is 'real'.
However, they have never claimed that the same fate would befall everyone who left the cult - Since it is known that so called 'marriage' in the church is not legally recognized and the members are still required to undergo civil marriage to (legally) validate their union inside the cult; but some members have left the cult long before their civil union, so that not all the ex-members would be guilty of adultery should they contract relationships outside the cult.
Since Christianity teaches that "Marriage is indissoluble until death of one or both partners in the relationship", but not all these marriages are validated by civil unions, which means that they are not de jure married.
If anything, such few cases of "breast cancer" does not serve to demonstrate that the leader of this organisation is God - Although that is what they would like to think, and they will use it as propaganda - but all it serves is to demonstrate that the real God of Christianity is sovereign, which is made manifest by such examples of divine punishment.
For the wages of sin is death - Death being figurative to denote punishment in one form or another. Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23
Clearly, God's law is still to be reckoned, whether or not the marriage is contracted in the cult.
Edit: Sorry, if this seems off topic; but my point was simply to illustrate that such cases of illnesses could well be attributed to the sins of those suffering the ailments (Which implies that the God of Christianity is the ultimate cause of their punishment); but the law of God is still subject to abuse, misuse, or misinterpretation by religious sects who will try to take "credit" for such illness, and they will use it to 'prove' that their leader is the "Messiah or Second Coming of Christ etc"; but we know that this has got nothing to do with their cult, but it has everything to do with Christianity, and the idea that each person will be rewarded by their works, whether good or evil.
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~Anastasia~
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I think we need to be careful in assigning people who have illness or misfortune befall them as being "God's vengeance" ... just as riches and success are not proof of His favor.
These kinds of thoughts have created some strange theology and bad judgements on people.
What's more, if we see such a thing happen to someone who has offended us, and we take pleasure in it - we are not helping ourselves spiritually.
These kinds of thoughts have created some strange theology and bad judgements on people.
What's more, if we see such a thing happen to someone who has offended us, and we take pleasure in it - we are not helping ourselves spiritually.
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While God can certainly execute justice, we as believers have to hold out hope for all people because people can be changed by the power of Jesus Christ.
For Paul (Saul) was a persecutor of Christians. Surely, this seemed like a really bad man who deserved to die or get God's justice or judgment because he hurt Christians; However, he turned out to be a vessel God had chosen to write a good majority of the New Testament and he spread the good news of Jesus Christ to many Gentiles.
Then there are the words of Jesus.
43 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:43-45).
In fact, when Jesus was crucified on the cross, He said the following about those who crucified Him,
"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34).
When Stephen was being stoned by his accusers, he said,
"And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge." (Acts of the Apostles 7:60).
Wanting justice upon someone sometimes stems from un-forgiveness. But we have to be quick to forgive because Jesus says,
"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15).
In other words, pray for this Christian man who has wronged you.
For Jesus can change his heart.
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GirdYourLoins
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As other people have said, we often wont see the outcome of Gods retribution. I have known people who were bullies at work, in their families and/or church and various other things where they have wronged people including Christians and including me. Often they seem to get away with it and be successful in their life with no apparent retribution.
However, I have also spoken to many people from backgrounds like this and criminals. I have led several to repentance and some on to salvation. The reason being that their spirits have been broken. This is something I have come to realise is part of Gods way of avenging Christians who have been wronged. We often want to see the results of this in the physical world, but he works in the spiritual realms. Just because you dont see something happen to someone does not mean it hasnt happened. Some of these people on the outside seemed successful and fulfilled, living life to the full but when I was able to speak to them they were desperately trying to find satisfaction in living that life as they were so broken. God brought them to the place of repentance with me.
I also do homeless work and a lot of the people who are on the streets who used to be successful (which is a minority but they are out there) often admit that they were fairly ruthless.
I would prefer to see people like this come to repentance and be saved than physically punished. When I am wronged these days I tend to pray and tell God that I forgive them and will leave it to Him to deal with but also pray to bring them to repentance and salvation if they are not Christians.
However, I have also spoken to many people from backgrounds like this and criminals. I have led several to repentance and some on to salvation. The reason being that their spirits have been broken. This is something I have come to realise is part of Gods way of avenging Christians who have been wronged. We often want to see the results of this in the physical world, but he works in the spiritual realms. Just because you dont see something happen to someone does not mean it hasnt happened. Some of these people on the outside seemed successful and fulfilled, living life to the full but when I was able to speak to them they were desperately trying to find satisfaction in living that life as they were so broken. God brought them to the place of repentance with me.
I also do homeless work and a lot of the people who are on the streets who used to be successful (which is a minority but they are out there) often admit that they were fairly ruthless.
I would prefer to see people like this come to repentance and be saved than physically punished. When I am wronged these days I tend to pray and tell God that I forgive them and will leave it to Him to deal with but also pray to bring them to repentance and salvation if they are not Christians.
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