Revelation in chart form

Marvin Knox · Feb 19, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Rev 16:15 "See, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains alert and doesn't lose his clothes. He will not have to go naked and let others see his shame."

Rev 16:16 The spirits gathered the kings at the place which is called Armageddon in Hebrew. .

That's exactly what it says.

He warns you and me that He is coming in a surprise manner like a thief. He will bless us if we are clothed in His righteousness so we can escape the wrath of God which is the tribulation coming to the earth. That time of wrath with it's bowls from Heaven and it's blowing trumpets resulting in, among other things, great deception so as to fool even the elect if that were possible.

For this particular "elect of God" - I will indeed escape those times of turmoil and deception.

I plan on escaping by His God given method - namely the pre tribulation rapture..

Marvin Knox · Feb 19, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
Ok we have agreement Marv, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is the standard go to in the pre-trib claim.

Just as I have said several times now.

Truth7t7 said:
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

That is indeed exactly what Marta said to Jesus.

Obviously Jesus had something else in mind for her brother - just as He does for His church.

The rapture of the church was a mystery when Jesus walked the earth and it was a mystery when Paul told the church about it and it is a mystery, apparently, to you as well.

BABerean2 · Feb 19, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
He will bless us if we are clothed in His righteousness so we can escape the wrath of God which is the tribulation coming to the earth.

The Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are not the same word.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We find those under the blood of the Lamb in the verse above.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

In this verse we find that at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan.

.

Truth7t7 · Feb 19, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
Just as I have said several times now.

Marv in the pre-trib claim in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 below we have the "Resurrection Of The Dead In Christ"

Marv Jesus Christ clearly taught that "The Dead In Christ" would see their resurrection on "The Last Day" and not anytime before this.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Marvin Knox · Feb 19, 2018

BABerean2 said:
In this verse we find that at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan.

God has always used the sins of Satan, among other methods, to accomplish His good.

What is your point?

Marvin Knox · Feb 19, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
Marv Jesus Christ clearly taught that "The Dead In Christ" would see their resurrection on "The Last Day" and not anytime before this.

Tell that to the two witnesses.

In fact - tell that to the saints who were raised at the death of Jesus Christ.

Truth7t7 said:
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Yes - that's exactly what she said.

Truth7t7 · Feb 19, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
Tell that to the two witnesses.

In fact - tell that to the saints who were raised at the death of Jesus Christ.

Yes - that's exactly what she said.

The "Two Witnesses" nor those raised from the dead at the death of Jesus Christ have experienced "The Last Day" resurrection.

Those raised at the death of Christ died a physical death, as will the two witnesses as they lay in a street in Jerusalem, however all will partake in "The Last Day" resurrection to immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 represents this "Last Day Resurrection" of "The Dead In Christ"

Marv Jesus Christ clearly taught that "The Dead In Christ" would see their resurrection on "The Last Day" and not anytime before this.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Marvin Knox · Feb 19, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
Marv Jesus Christ clearly taught that "The Dead In Christ" would see their resurrection on "The Last Day" and not anytime before this.

Which is obviously not true since the ones I cited were resurrected before the "last day" you insist is the only time those in Christ can be resurrected.

Truth7t7 said:
The "Two Witnesses" nor those raised from the dead at the death of Jesus Christ have experienced "The Last Day" resurrection.

Obviously - they were on days quite a while before your "last day - which gives the lie to the idea that all resurrections will be on the literal "last day".

Truth7t7 said:
Those raised at the death of Christ died a physical death, as will the two witnesses as they lay in a street in Jerusalem

Obviously. What's your point?

So did my mother and the Apostle Paul.

I may also. But - then again - I may be changed without first dying. In which case it will be immediately following the resurrection of my mother and Paul.

Truth7t7 said:
...however all will partake in "The Last Day" resurrection to immortality.

All in Christ will be given "immortality" when they are glorified and will never die again - assuming they ever did.

But many will be changed before the last day -just as the examples I have given and those who are raptured just prior to the tribulation period according to the pre tribularion rapture doctrine we have been discussing.

Truth7t7 said:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 represents this "Last Day Resurrection" of "The Dead In Christ"

Not necessarily - since many will escape the period of wrath - after which will come the last day resurrection (much after in my opinion - i.e. after the 1000 year reign of Christ).

No need for you to repeat you position. I understand that you believe all resurrections of those in Christ will happen on one certain day and not before that. This - in spite of the examples I have given you from the scriptures.

Truth7t7 said:
Marv Jesus Christ clearly taught that "The Dead In Christ" would see their resurrection on "The Last Day" and not anytime before this.

If you insist on taking that completely literally - like I said - tell that to the two witnesses and the dead who were raised when Christ died.

Truth7t7 said:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
John 6:40KJV
John 11:23-24KJV

No need to keep printing them out. We have all read the passages now.

If you insist on just quoting them and ignoring that they don't necessarily mean the "literal" last day - you'll do so at the expense of ignoring other scripture.

But you really should let the scriptures interpret the scriptures.

According to your method of interpretation - Adam and Eve should have died literally on the day when they took that first bite of the fruit of the tree - since that's what God said.

Truth7t7 · Feb 19, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
Which is obviously not true since the ones I cited were resurrected before the "last day" you insist is the only time those in Christ can be resurrected.

Obviously - they were on days quite a while before your "last day - which gives the lie to the idea that all resurrections will be on the literal "last day".

Obviously. What's your point?

So did my mother and the Apostle Paul.

I may also. But - then again - I may be changed without first dying. In which case it will be immediately following the resurrection of my mother and Paul.

All in Christ will be given "immortality" when they are glorified and will never die again - assuming they ever did.

But many will be changed before the last day -just as the examples I have given and those who are raptured just prior to the tribulation period according to the pre tribularion rapture doctrine we have been discussing.

Not necessarily - since many will escape the period of wrath - after which will come the last day resurrection (much after in my opinion - i.e. after the 1000 year reign of Christ).

No need for you to repeat you position. I understand that you believe all resurrections of those in Christ will happen on one certain day and not before that. This - in spite of the examples I have given you from the scriptures.
If you insist on taking that completely literally - like I said - tell that to the two witnesses and the dead who were raised when Christ died.

No need to keep printing them out. We have all read the passages now.

If you insist on just quoting them and ignoring that they don't necessarily mean the "literal" last day - you'll do so at the expense of ignoring other scripture.

But you really should let the scriptures interpret the scriptures.

According to your method of interpretation - Adam and Eve should have died literally on the day when they took that first bite of the fruit of the tree - since that's what God said.

Marv we will disagree, there is one future resurrection of all that are in the graves, this will take place at the future second advent, on "The Last Day"

Those that were seen alive from the grave at Christ death and as Lazarus was they were "Raised From The Dead" they were no part of the "Resurrection", they died physical death.

You in error apply the word "Resurrection" that is a "Future" event, that will take place on "The Last Day"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Choose Wisely · Feb 19, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
That's cool. It always puzzles me when someone does not believe in the pretribulation rapture. Jesus clearly says that you will not know when He is coming. He tells you He is coming right after the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven, and yet he says that the GOODMAN will not know when he is coming. Sounds impossible..........unless..........there is more than one coming of the son of man.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

What do you make of this verse in Luke 17, Truth7t7?

Kind of tough isn't it Truth.

Marvin Knox · Feb 19, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
Those that were seen alive from the grave at Christ death and as Lazarus was they were "Raised From The Dead" they were no part of the "Resurrection", they died physical death.

Sure they died physical deaths. So did my mother and so did the Apostle Paul and Jesus Himself. What's your point?

Truth7t7 said:
You in error apply the word "Resurrection" that is a "Future" event, that will take place on "The Last Day"

Great - then we must correct all of the great Christian creeds and confessions which refer to the resurrection of Jesus Christ and make them say something other than "resurrection".

Truth7t7 said:
Those that were seen alive from the grave at Christ death and as Lazarus was they were "Raised From The Dead" they were no part of the "Resurrection", they died physical death.

The scriptures say that many who were in the grave were "raised".

You have a funny way of defining resurrection - one that fits your end time theology rather than your defining your end time theology by what the scriptures teach.

Truth7t7 said:
You in error apply the word "Resurrection" that is a "Future" event, that will take place on "The Last Day"

Being "raised" means they were resurrected.

You are letting your preconceived end times theology (and perhaps even your dislike for the likes of Scofield change what are the plain and simple words of the scriptures into something foreign to what the Holy Spirit of God intended them to say.

Look - at the very least - you should admit that your theology is not as solidly based in scripture as you had thought it to be.

i have always been willing and will continue to be willing to reexamine my end timed theology from time to time in light of some concept I had not fully considered before. I have changed my views a few time over the last 60 or so years since coming to the Lord.

IMO - you are well advised to consider doing the same.

No one but the Lord Himself knows us here in the forum. There is no shame in exibiting a Berean character - quite the opposite in fact.

Truth7t7 · Feb 19, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
Sure they died physical deaths. So did my mother and so did the Apostle Paul and Jesus Himself. What's your point?

Great - then we must correct all of the great Christian creeds and confessions which refer to the resurrection of Jesus Christ and make them say something other than "resurrection".

The scriptures say that many who were in the grave were "raised".

You have a funny way of defining resurrection - one that fits your end time theology rather than your defining your end time theology by what the scriptures teach.

Being "raised" means they were resurrected.

You are letting your preconceived end times theology (and perhaps even your dislike for the likes of Scofield change what are the plain and simple words of the scriptures into something foreign to what the Holy Spirit of God intended them to say.

Look - at the very least - you should admit that your theology is not as solidly based in scripture as you had thought it to be.

i have always been willing and will continue to be willing to reexamine my end timed theology from time to time in light of some concept I had not fully considered before. I have changed my views a few time over the last 60 or so years since coming to the Lord.

IMO - you are well advised to consider doing the same.

No one but the Lord Himself knows us here in the forum. There is no shame in exibiting a Berean character - quite the opposite in fact.

Those that come forth from the grave are "Raised From The Dead" as Jesus Christ Clearly Taught below.

"Resurrection" is a future biblical event, that takes place on "The Last Day"

You will closely note below the dead are not "Resurrected", this is your private interpretation that "ADDS" to God's words.

John 12:17KJV
The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.

Matthew 11:5KJV
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Luke 7:22KJV
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

Marvin Knox · Feb 20, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
Those that come forth from the grave are "Raised From The Dead" as Jesus Christ Clearly Taught below.

"Resurrection" is a future biblical event, that takes place on "The Last Day"

You will closely note below the dead are not "Resurrected", this is your private interpretation that "ADDS" to God's words........................

Absolute nonsense. Yours is the “private interpretation

Christ’s resurrection was God raising Him from the dead.

God raising someone from the dead is resurrecting them – plain and simple.

Acts 2:24
But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.

Acts 2:32
God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.

Acts 13:34
In fact, God raised Him from the dead never to see decay. As He has said: 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings I promised to David.'

Acts 13:37
But the One whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

“And they did not believe the others who had seen Him since He had been raised from the dead.”

But let's go a little different way for awhile now.

You place great emphasis on the term "last day" for the resurrection in order to avoid the very obvious doctrine of the rapture of the church to shield her from the wrath to come.

Get real specific now if you would. Exactly what is this this last day in relationship to?

Is it the last day before the great white throne judgment? Is it the last day before the destruction of the present heavens and the earth in melting fire?

Is it the last day of the 7 year tribulation period.

Is it the last day of the first 3 and 1/2 years of the tribulation period.

I would ask if it's the last day before the 1000 year reign of Christ - but we've already established that you have conveniently spiritualized that very scripture based time period.

Get specific now please. When is this last day and in relation to what events?

By the way – I can’t figure for the life of me why people are so offended that God would do such a thing as to keep Christ's bride from the wrath and tribulation which is coming on the earth.

Although – come to think of it – I have talked to many here who reject eternal security and preach some kind of works salvation. They also invariably reject the rapture since they believe that we must earn our salvation via staying faithful through the tribulation deceptions.

That isn’t you by any chance is it? You aren’t one of those who reject or twist salvation by grace alone are you? I hope not.

But then – you do deny other portions of scripture such as the millennial reign of Christ - so it wouldn’t surprise me to see that you reject or twist other scriptures also in order to line up with your preconceived notions.

I’m just asking and not necessarily accusing. But I have seen some definite patterns in the forum, which are fairly easy to take note of once understood, in the way people view things. For that reason nothing much surprises me now.

For instance my suspecting beforehand that you likely reject the 1000 year reign, since you reject the rapture, is an example of being attuned to certain patterns of belief here in the forum.

To him who does not have (rejects the straight forward word of the Lord concerning the 1000 year reign for instance) - even what he thinks he has will be taken from him.

(I.e. – one error begets another almost invariably.)

You aren't one of those, like the Adventists for instance, who reject resurrection for believers before the end of time because it does not allow for a judgment of our works at the end of time (such as looking at what day we worshiped on) in order to decide once for all our salvation?

As another for instance - some of the people here in this thread alone believe that there will be many who will lose their salvation during the tribulation due to taking the mark of the beast. There is also the belief in universal salvation for all men and angels in the end which is strangely juxtapositioned with this idea of loss of salvation in this life (only to be granted again at the end of time when all are saved).

I.e. - it isn't just a lack of respect for the character of Scofield which is at the root of their rejection of the pre trib rapture. There is much more in play with them - as I have found from other threads on other subjects.

I'm just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from before I spend much more time with you. I just want to be able to zero in on the real issues in all this.

Start with telling me exactly when you envision this "last day" as happening and why you see it that way.

Let's put all of our cards right out on the table and all that.

If I find that you don't have any of these aberrant works tendencies which are causing your rejection of the rapture - I apologize.

Maybe you are simply a saved by grace born again Christian and simply haven't thought these things through - causing you to miss the fact that there have already been resurrections long before the last day (and not just that of Jesus Christ).

Truth7t7 · Feb 20, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
Absolute nonsense. Yours is the “private interpretation

Christ’s resurrection was God raising Him from the dead.

God raising someone from the dead is resurrecting them – plain and simple.

Acts 2:24
But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.

Acts 2:32
God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.

Acts 13:34
In fact, God raised Him from the dead never to see decay. As He has said: 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings I promised to David.'

Acts 13:37
But the One whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

“And they did not believe the others who had seen Him since He had been raised from the dead.”

But let's go a little different way for awhile now.

You place great emphasis on the term "last day" for the resurrection in order to avoid the very obvious doctrine of the rapture of the church to shield her from the wrath to come.

Get real specific now if you would. Exactly what is this this last day in relationship to?

Is it the last day before the great white throne judgment? Is it the last day before the destruction of the present heavens and the earth in melting fire?

Is it the last day of the 7 year tribulation period.

Is it the last day of the first 3 and 1/2 years of the tribulation period.

I would ask if it's the last day before the 1000 year reign of Christ - but we've already established that you have conveniently spiritualized that very scripture based time period.

Get specific now please. When is this last day and in relation to what events?

By the way – I can’t figure for the life of me why people are so offended that God would do such a thing as to keep Christ's bride from the wrath and tribulation which is coming on the earth.

Although – come to think of it – I have talked to many here who reject eternal security and preach some kind of works salvation. They also invariably reject the rapture since they believe that we must earn our salvation via staying faithful through the tribulation deceptions.

That isn’t you by any chance is it? You aren’t one of those who reject or twist salvation by grace alone are you? I hope not.

But then – you do deny other portions of scripture such as the millennial reign of Christ - so it wouldn’t surprise me to see that you reject or twist other scriptures also in order to line up with your preconceived notions.

I’m just asking and not necessarily accusing. But I have seen some definite patterns in the forum, which are fairly easy to take note of once understood, in the way people view things. For that reason nothing much surprises me now.

For instance my suspecting beforehand that you likely reject the 1000 year reign, since you reject the rapture, is an example of being attuned to certain patterns of belief here in the forum.

To him who does not have (rejects the straight forward word of the Lord concerning the 1000 year reign for instance) - even what he thinks he has will be taken from him.

(I.e. – one error begets another almost invariably.)

You aren't one of those, like the Adventists for instance, who reject resurrection for believers before the end of time because it does not allow for a judgment of our works at the end of time (such as looking at what day we worshiped on) in order to decide once for all our salvation?

As another for instance - some of the people here in this thread alone believe that there will be many who will lose their salvation during the tribulation due to taking the mark of the beast. There is also the belief in universal salvation for all men and angels in the end which is strangely juxtapositioned with this idea of loss of salvation in this life (only to be granted again at the end of time when all are saved).

I.e. - it isn't just a lack of respect for the character of Scofield which is at the root of their rejection of the pre trib rapture. There is much more in play with them - as I have found from other threads on other subjects.

I'm just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from before I spend much more time with you. I just want to be able to zero in on the real issues in all this.

Start with telling me exactly when you envision this "last day" as happening and why you see it that way.

Let's put all of our cards right out on the table and all that.

If I find that you don't have any of these aberrant works tendencies which are causing your rejection of the rapture - I apologize.

Maybe you are simply a saved by grace born again Christian and simply haven't thought these things through - causing you to miss the fact that there have already been resurrections long before the last day (and not just that of Jesus Christ).

Exactly as it's written, Christ is the first to be resurrected, then after this those that died in faith at the second coming, then "The End"

All your scripture presented shows "Christ The First Fruit"

Marv you can't provide one scripture showing any believer being resurrected, because this is a future event, on the "Last Day" as Jesus Taught.

No pre-trib rapture Marv

No place in scripture are "The Dead In Christ" resurrected to immortality, prior to the "Second Advent" and "Last Day" resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Marvin Knox · Feb 20, 2018

You told me that the term raised from the dead was not the equivalent of resurrected.

I refuted that and you won't acknowledge that I did - which proves that there were resurrections of those in Christ long before the ones on the mysterious "last day" you speak of.

Now let's move on to your telling me when this last day occurs.

Please address my other concerns as well since I have seen already that you arbitrarily reject the 1000 year reign.

There isn't much use our going on with this if you insist on rejecting and or spiritualizing anything which you don't agree with even though it is clearly stated in the scriptures - just as you are attempting to do with the various resurrections which came earlier in the church age.

You made it a big point to saying that you wanted to enter into a forthright debate about the subject and now you are twisting scripture by saying that being raised from the dead is not resurrection from the dead. This - in spite of my references to being "raised from the dead" meaning full fledged resurrection in the case of the Lord.

It's interesting to me that you readily spiritualize an entire directly stated doctrine like the 1000 year reign when it suits you. Yet you refuse to likewise acknowledge that God's use of the term "last day" might also be some kind of spiritual only truth - such as it being the final day of His work in any individual before their glorification and entering into the final rest which is their final and eternal state in Christ based on the activities of this life.

After all - He does that kind of thing all of the time such as "the day of the Lord", "in that day" and what not.

Perhaps if you'll do us the favor of telling us exactly what this mysterious "last day" relates to in time and space. Maybe you haven't thought thing through that much or - based on the way you played a game with your earlier questions to me - spelling out where you are coming from would blow a cover of some kind.

Let's just lay your cards on the table since mine have been made readily apparent to all.

iamlamad · Feb 20, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
Exactly as it's written, Christ is the first to be resurrected, then after this those that died in faith at the second coming, then "The End"

All your scripture presented shows "Christ The First Fruit"

Marv you can't provide one scripture showing any believer being resurrected, because this is a future event, on the "Last Day" as Jesus Taught.

No pre-trib rapture Marv

No place in scripture are "The Dead In Christ" resurrected to immortality, prior to the "Second Advent" and "Last Day" resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

We all can see this is your opinion, but it will be proved wrong when Jesus comes pretrib for his bride - to remove us to a place of safety.

BABerean2 · Feb 20, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
God has always used the sins of Satan, among other methods, to accomplish His good.

What is your point?

The point is that your claim about the tribulation period being the same as the wrath of God is shown to be in error.
.

Truth7t7 · Feb 20, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
You told me that the term raised from the dead was not the equivalent of resurrected.

I refuted that and you won't acknowledge that I did - which proves that there were resurrections of those in Christ long before the ones on the mysterious "last day" you speak of.

Now let's move on to your telling me when this last day occurs.

Please address my other concerns as well since I have seen already that you arbitrarily reject the 1000 year reign.

There isn't much use our going on with this if you insist on rejecting and or spiritualizing anything which you don't agree with even though it is clearly stated in the scriptures - just as you are attempting to do with the various resurrections which came earlier in the church age.

You made it a big point to saying that you wanted to enter into a forthright debate about the subject and now you are twisting scripture by saying that being raised from the dead is not resurrection from the dead. This - in spite of my references to being "raised from the dead" meaning full fledged resurrection in the case of the Lord.

It's interesting to me that you readily spiritualize an entire directly stated doctrine like the 1000 year reign when it suits you. Yet you refuse to likewise acknowledge that God's use of the term "last day" might also be some kind of spiritual only truth - such as it being the final day of His work in any individual before their glorification and entering into the final rest which is their final and eternal state in Christ based on the activities of this life.

After all - He does that kind of thing all of the time such as "the day of the Lord", "in that day" and what not.

Perhaps if you'll do us the favor of telling us exactly what this mysterious "last day" relates to in time and space. Maybe you haven't thought thing through that much or - based on the way you played a game with your earlier questions to me - spelling out where you are coming from would blow a cover of some kind.

Let's just lay your cards on the table since mine have been made readily apparent to all.

The scripture "Clearly Teaches" The End takes place at the future second coming, is there any time beyond "Then Cometh The End" there is your "Last Day"

P.S. you have not shown one account of any of the "Dead In Christ" being resurrected to immortality as Jesus Christ the First Fruit, not a one.

P.S. there is no 1000 year kingdom found between verses 23-24 below.

They that are Christ at his coming, then cometh "The End"!

Exactly as it's written, Christ is the first to be resurrected, then after this those that died in faith at the second coming, then "The End"

All your scripture presented shows "Christ The First Fruit"

Marv you can't provide one scripture showing any believer being resurrected, because this is a future event, on the "Last Day" as Jesus Taught.

No pre-trib rapture Marv

No place in scripture are "The Dead In Christ" resurrected to immortality, prior to the "Second Advent" and "Last Day" resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Truth7t7 · Feb 20, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
You told me that the term raised from the dead was not the equivalent of resurrected.

I refuted that and you won't acknowledge that I did - which proves that there were resurrections of those in Christ long before the ones on the mysterious "last day" you speak of.

Now let's move on to your telling me when this last day occurs.

Please address my other concerns as well since I have seen already that you arbitrarily reject the 1000 year reign.

There isn't much use our going on with this if you insist on rejecting and or spiritualizing anything which you don't agree with even though it is clearly stated in the scriptures - just as you are attempting to do with the various resurrections which came earlier in the church age.

You made it a big point to saying that you wanted to enter into a forthright debate about the subject and now you are twisting scripture by saying that being raised from the dead is not resurrection from the dead. This - in spite of my references to being "raised from the dead" meaning full fledged resurrection in the case of the Lord.

It's interesting to me that you readily spiritualize an entire directly stated doctrine like the 1000 year reign when it suits you. Yet you refuse to likewise acknowledge that God's use of the term "last day" might also be some kind of spiritual only truth - such as it being the final day of His work in any individual before their glorification and entering into the final rest which is their final and eternal state in Christ based on the activities of this life.

After all - He does that kind of thing all of the time such as "the day of the Lord", "in that day" and what not.

Perhaps if you'll do us the favor of telling us exactly what this mysterious "last day" relates to in time and space. Maybe you haven't thought thing through that much or - based on the way you played a game with your earlier questions to me - spelling out where you are coming from would blow a cover of some kind.

Let's just lay your cards on the table since mine have been made readily apparent to all.

Marv Jesus Christ clearly taught he would return in the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom.

There will be no future 1000 year kingdom on this earth, with mortal humans present, as Jesus sits on a throne watching mortal humans dying around him.

Verses 31-32 Jesus Returns with the angels, the nations are gathered for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34

"ETERNITY BEGINS"!

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

seventysevens · Feb 20, 2018

BABerean2 said:
The point is that your claim about the tribulation period being the same as the wrath of God is shown to be in error.
.

Wrath is fierce anger ,
God says outright He is a jealous God - his wrath starts out subtlety and then explodes in fierceness ,you simply do not understand what the Great delusion that God will send is all about who is the AC -Man of Sin

I will paraphrase to make it clearer
God is saying that He has sent the Creator of All things - the True King -the True Messiah Jesus who fulfilled several hundred literal prophecies -Jesus from his birth , life, ministry , death on the cross and resurrection from the dead. -

Whom He Jesus the True Messiah who took upon Himself your sins and the sins of everyone of the world and paid the ransom price of death for yours and the worlds sins by suffering the crucifixion on the cross unto death

-Then he Messiah Jesus rose again to life to prove that HE ALONE has the power of life and death and offers eternal life for the world and blessings beyond what anyone can imagine.

All He asks in return is that you simply love one another as He has loved you and accept His GIFT of eternal life .

But the world has Rejected Messiah Jesus and knowingly follows sinful ways -selfish ways seeking after the enemy following false gods and even making idols and graven images in your synagogues to worship false gods -

So God has decreed to say - since you reject the True king - the True Messiah and you insist on serving your own self and false gods God will send you a Great delusion - a False messiah, God will send you a false messiah and he will be your god and you will serve him and follow him into the lake of fire to your doom.

I AM tells you that this is what I AM is doing generations BEFORE it happens to give you knowledge of what is to come and if you repent before this happens I AM will forgive you -

but most of the world will not repent and continue to reject the True Messiah and so you will receive and believe the lie in the great delusion of the False messiah Because you reject the Great I AM who gives you the breath of life !!

Acceptance of the False messiah will lead you(those who believe the false messiah) into the lake of fire because you accepted him and rejected the True Messiah who died to pay your debt for the wage of sins is death , so now you will pay the wages of sin on your own -unless you repent and choose to serve the True Messiah -

Gods wrath begins with sending satan to earth empowering the False messiah - satan is not able to do this without God causing it to happen

usage of words 'you and your' is not toward you personally - they are used in the manner that scripture uses these words
if you understand this you will begin to understand why the real AC has not yet come upon the world

Revelation in chart form

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