If you are a sinner, you are NOT saved by grace!
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Now come the classic put down *You don't have the higher knowledge that we have"
I have told you the truth, put it right there in front of you, but knew you still would not be able to see that you changed it. So explain all you like...that doesn't change the truth.
Thanks, I thought so.
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Buzz_B
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LOL. OSAS believers do not know what the OSAS doctrine is.
I know, because I get around to all of the different churches and the churches which embrace OSAS all explain it differently.
Basically, when trying to defend that belief they end up saying what ever comes into their head. That is why they all teach that belief differently. None of them really understand it and that is because it is false doctrine.
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It would seem we agree...
But We don't....I asked you to read 1 Peter 3
You said it had nothing to do with anything in previous post.
For one, I wasn't speaking of water baptism as I presume you thought. And if you read 1 Peter 3 where my question came from. There is a baptism that saves us now the resurrection of Christ. His life is our Baptism.
I never said nothing is done without Christ. What I am saying is He doesn't do it without us. As the Ark saves no one, if they do not get in. We must abide in, live in, walk in,or as some say work the word. Salvation is a Life.
Christ's life and we are delivered, protected, When we live in it.
"So, no one saves themself by anything they do, but are saved entirely and only by the grace and work of God."
"do"
Yet if we do nothing, nothing will be done.
So I do not agree.
While we are not delivered by anything we do to Earn salvation, there is still effort it takes to reside, remain in Him. Which means we are active participants. Our Salvation is a Life. Meaning our deliverer, place of refuge is the resurrected life of Christ. In order to be delivered or protected we must walk,live, abide in His life. [clothe ourselves, walk in the newness] Those are all actions, things we do that take effort. And So whose Baptism saves us? Christ's Baptism when we also die with Him. For if we die we shall live.
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DeepYou are bound up in complexity.
I will speak to this in a moment, but I looked up my notes on the Nicolaitans (the sect of Nicolous) and found that it is not what you say. Little is really even known about the sect but the best evidence we have is that the sect dabbled in Baal type practices. And the fact that Revelation 2:6 says quite clearly, "But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate", shows this was not a problem for the Ephesian congregation. The Nicolaitans have nothing whatsoever to do with ones who try to work their way to righteousness. Quite the opposite. They engaged in sins of of the flesh which God hated.
You are repeating yourself and just continuing the same old logic rather than trying to progress to try to see what you are being told. Being born is just a way of saying that what was inspired to develop in you through the power of God's knowledge and wisdom being built up in you has developed. And it has developed in you because your mind and heart are being cleared up so that they can function more in God's image as they were meant to do when God created man.
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ViaCrucis
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Alright, then salvation depends not on God's grace and Christ's saving work on the cross, but our being perfect.
I'm not interested in your false doctrines and false experiences.
Christos Anesti.
Aleithos Anesti.
That is all that matters.
-CryptoLutheran
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aiki
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I calls it like I sees it. Regardless, your response here is a deflection of what I pointed out about your Strawman arguing.
Your interpretation of the truth, you mean, which, for the reasons I outlined, I find highly faulty.
I was thinking exactly the same thing about your "explanations."
Well, if you knew I wasn't going to help you resort to labeling, why ask me to?
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aiki
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Yes, I get this a lot - from those who haven't really thought carefully about what the Bible has to say about the eternal security of the born-again believer.
Uh huh. This hasn't been my experience.
Yeah, the usual rhetoric. If you can't deal with the arguments, go for ad hominem.
Well, unless you know personally all those who hold to the doctrine of eternal security and have evaluated all their arguments, it's a lot of baloney to make the sort of sweeping generalizations you've just made here. But this is the sort of facile reasoning I usually have to put up with from the other side of this argument.
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Speaking of OSAS, I had a dream last night that John Calvin was before God's judgmnt seat. "Give an account for your doctrine." he didn't know what to say. "You helped many believers to have secure helmets; but in doing so you also gave many unbelievers false assurance, and because they didn't see a need to repent, they did not do so and ended up in hell as unbelievers with secure helmets on their heads." I won't say what Calvin's judgment ended up being because my dream didn't go that far..if you don't understand the reference to helmets look up 1 Thessalonians 5:8 and Ephesians 6:17.
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Buzz_B
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That is a pouting sort of conclusion one usually gets from children who are angry that they were told that they were wrong.
Christ's work on the cross was finished for Christ but not for us. His finish was our beginning because now it was up to up to learn from and follow his righteous example.
God's works which he has had for us to do from the beginning of creating man do not change nor are they works that are futile. It just so happens that they are works that only the spiritually alive (sons of God) can appreciate and fully know to be able to work them.
You are in effect calling James a liar when James asked, "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14
I would not want to be one who either directly or in effect calls God's faithful Bible writers who had his spirit, liars.
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Buzz_B
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When I said Baal, that was a glitch. I meant Balaam per a theory developed based off of Revelation 2:14-15. Balaam's sin was certainly not the sin of trying to work ones way to righteousness. There are three groups causing trouble to the church in Pergamos. The synogogue of Satan are thought to be the remaining organized faction of Judaism which Paul once was a member of when he was persecuting the church. And it is thought that these of the synagogue of Satan also devised to corrupt the doctrine of Christ, entering into the sheepfold by climbing up over the wall instead of entering through the door by real faith in Christ who is that door. And so once inside they began to push the works of that Old Law Covenant as necessary to salvation. And Paul in having to speak against their heresy left the untaught and unsteady something to twist in their imaginations so as to think that Paul meant that law is not necessary to salvation. That is in fact exactly what Peter was referring to at 2 Peter 3:15-16 concerning Paul's writings.
This is what 1stcenturylady was referring to earlier, and she was right. I am afraid I confused her, which I regret. I meant only that her using it as evidence that no works are needed is wrong. We cannot get around works without inferring that James was a liar when he wrote: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14
Edit: Not to diminish what you meant but I should have gone back and corrected that error in that second post after having realized it, and I failed to do so.
For me, the toughest part of all of this is seeing that the words behind the words of what so many speak are telling a different story than the one they claim right to. I am becoming increasingly convinced that should God come down from heaven in person to tell them they would yet not listen. They are not willing to see anything but what they have pride in their hearts that they were miraculously enlightened with their understanding. And that makes me mourn for them in my spirit.
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Did you give any details on the straw man argument you claim?
If you think in anyway that because I choose to not take some of your comments seriously, that means I'm deflecting anything, or that which I ignore was because you had any kind of viable point, you should probably rethink things. I say that because those who believe this type thing tend to have a same mindset that sees what they believe and not the other way around.
But whatever it takes, all I can do is warn you, what you believe is up to you.
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Buzz_B
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Stephen R. Covey in his original book, 'The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People', has an interesting discussion of that mindset.
It is good to see that someone else knows about that.
http://www.stafforini.com/docs/Covey - The 7 habits of highly effective people.pdf
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Like I said, you see what you'd like to see/what works for you. I didn't recall what was said, but if you want to evade what you said I was evading, that's up to you.
The rest of your post, how you say? I'm deflecting.
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Stephen R. Covey in his original book, 'The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People', has an interesting discussion of that mindset.
It is good to see that someone else knows about that.
http://www.stafforini.com/docs/Covey - The 7 habits of highly effective people.pdf
Sounds interesting....thanks
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Buzz_B
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If explaining your thoughts one way does not work effectively, why not just explain them another way? Would that be better than getting locked into a mode of judgments as to the defects of each other?
It is one thing to say that someone's thinking is quite complex. For all that means is that they present a challenge to you to be able to get around the little snags that are preventing them from seeing what you are saying. But it would be quite another thing to continue on into a campaign of, "I know you are, but what am I", as the Peewee Herman character unfortunately taught many of our children to do.
Acknowledge that you think he needs to simplify a bit and then get onto presenting what you believe from different angles. Use a different angle each time if the one before proved ineffective.
If what you believe is really truth, it will be able to be proved from many different points of view. If it cannot be presented from various angles because there are none, and the other person's beliefs can be because those angels do exist, then perhaps it is time to humble yourself and begin to accept some of what they are speaking to you.
I hope that helps.
My prayers are for your edification in the love of God.
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