For all that fear hell

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The kingdom of God is within us. Luke 17:20-21
The kingdom of God is righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. Romans 14:17

But, what does one have to do with the other?
Are you asking what these two verses have to do with one another.....or what these two verses have to do with the "coming of the Son of Man" (or as in Matt 24:30, "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven")? I don't know what "one" and "other" you're referring to.

Do you not notice the whole theme--running through the Gospels--of Jesus and the Kingdom of God? What was He accused of and mocked for (claiming to be "King of the Jews")?

Please understand....I'm not claiming to have it all figured out...and this understanding is brand new to me as well....but once I looked at the Gospels from this perspective it's amazing to me just how well it ALL fits into place.

From NT Wright:
How God Became King: The Story of the Gospels
My proposal about the gospels is that they all, in their rather different ways, tell the story of Jesus of Nazareth as the story of how God became king. They all, in other words, announce the launch of a ‘theocracy’.

So when the gospels tell the story of Jesus as the story of ‘how God became king’, this wasn’t just an aspiration; it was an accomplishment. We can see this in three narratival strands which work together in all four gospels (though not, interestingly, in any of the non-canonical gnostic materials). As with this whole lecture, I here summarize and simplify a large mass of complex material.

John’s great climactic scene of Jesus and Pilate – the kingdom of God against the kingdom of Caesar, challenging one another’s visions of kingdom, truth and power – shows where, for him, the story was heading all along. Luke stages the birth of Jesus carefully in relation to the decree of Caesar Augustus, and his second volume ends with Paul in Rome announcing God as king and Jesus as lord, ‘openly and unhindered’. Matthew and Mark draw heavily on Daniel 7, the passage above all where God’s kingdom confronts and overthrows the kingdoms of the world, seen as a succession of four increasingly horrible monsters. There is no doubt, in the first century, that the fourth monster would have meant Rome. And if recent suggestions are right, Mark himself may have deliberately framed his gospel with strong hints that in Jesus an empire was coming to birth of a completely different character to that of Caesar. A current article (NTS 2010) contrasts the dove which descended on Jesus at his baptism with the Roman eagle, appearing as an omen to further the cause of Augustus or his successors. And an increasingly common interpretation of Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem is to see that event not only as the staged fulfilment of Zechariah 9 but also as a deliberate parody of the regular entry into Jerusalem of Pontius Pilate, on horseback surrounded by soldiers, coming from his quarters in Caesarea.~Imagining the Kingdom: Mission and Theology in Early Christianity
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Doug Melven

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,080
2,576
60
Wyoming
✟83,208.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Are you asking what these two verses have to do with one another.....or what these two verses have to do with the "coming of the Son of Man" (or as in Matt 24:30, "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven")? I don't know what "one" and "other" you're referring to.
You cited verses you said were poetically speaking about destruction and then you gave an amilennial article about the kingdom of God being here already and it is yet to come.
What do the destruction verses have to do with the kingdom of God.
Do you not notice the whole theme--running through the Gospels--of Jesus and the Kingdom of God? What was He accused of and mocked for (claiming to be "King of the Jews")?
John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
22,484
6,050
64
✟336,303.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Wait a minute. How can ALL be reconciled to Christ....but the followers of Christ were urged--in this very passage you quoted--to "be reconciled to God"? They were still "contending for the faith"....as we also should be "urged on by love":

For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. 15 And he died for all, so that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them~2 Corinthians 5:14

When I imagine "all reconciled to Christ".....I imagine all back to the way God created things to be. Back to where things were ALL "very good". No death....no more tears....no fear in animals for fear of being prey.....

He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever."And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true."~Revelation 21:4-5



The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,

and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,

and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;

and a little child shall lead them~Isaiah 11:6

....that's what will be once there's the second death--where death and Hades are tossed into the Lake of Fire (in our belief). There can't be "new" until the old is gone forever (sin, death, evil, sorrow, pain, fear, disbelief...etc).
You've left out what Jesus said himself.

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so must the Human One be lifted upso that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life.God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him.Whoever believes in him isn’t judged; whoever doesn’t believe in him is already judged, because they don’t believe in the name of God’s only Son.“This is the basis for judgment: The light came into the world, and people loved darkness more than the light, for their actions are evil.All who do wicked things hate the light and don’t come to the light for fear that their actions will be exposed to the light.Whoever does the truth comes to the light so that it can be seen that their actions were done in God.” - John 3:14-21 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:14-21 - Common English Bible

Believe and you are not judged Don't believe and you are. Whosoever believes had eternal life. Those that don't believe do not because they live the darkness rather than light.

Universalism is NOT biblical in any fashion. Either Jesus was a liar or the doctrine is false. I don't blame those that believe that though because they are not purposely trying to deceive. They just misunderstand or ignore the passages that don't support the their beliefs. Both cannot be true. Therefore there is a misunderstanding. Yes Jesus died for all men. No all men will not be saved. How do you reconcile these? It's based on belief. Jesus died for all men to provide the way of salvation. But men must believe in order to enter the way of salvation. Narrow is the way because few few find it. Those that do are saved. The rest are not.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Doug Melven
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Universalism is NOT biblical in any fashion.


"Love never fails"......

upload_2018-2-18_12-4-14.png
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You cited verses you said were poetically speaking about destruction and then you gave an amilennial article about the kingdom of God being here already and it is yet to come.
What do the destruction verses have to do with the kingdom of God.
The end of the Jewish age and the beginning of the Kingdom of God are a plot....a premise found all throughout the Gospels. That doesn't mean you'll find "destruction" in all verses...? That'd be like expecting to find "murder" in every sentence of a murder mystery.

Or am I misunderstanding your question?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make by posting this? Are you denying that Jesus was accused of and mocked for being considered the "King of the Jews"?

And they put up over His head the written accusation against Him: this is Jesus, the King of the Jews.~Matthew 27:37
 
Upvote 0

Doug Melven

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,080
2,576
60
Wyoming
✟83,208.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"Love never fails"......

View attachment 221016
The verses you said are about universalism.
12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Are all men drawn to Christ? Or did He draw all judgment?

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Of course God wants to have mercy on all. But, they must believe.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
That would be New Heaven and New Earth.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
It must be received.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Do you get to take a part in what Christ is doing if you weren't in Christ at His coming? That would be NO!

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Just because He has reconciled us to Himself does not mean that the work of reconciliation is complete. If it was complete, why would He say twice that we have a ministry of reconciliation and once He tells us to be reconciled?

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Wasn't it you who said that just saying some words didn't constitute salvation?
Romans 10:9 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness.
I see no heart belief in just making a confession.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Like I said before and will say again, believing is a requirement.
1 Timothy
4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Titus 2:11 The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Irresistible grace is not taught in the Bible.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Of course He died for all. Acceptance of His gift is an absolute requirement.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
John is actually making a distinction that Jesus died not only for those who believe, but for everybody.
Nobody is without an excuse as to why they did not accept Jesus as Savior.

2 Peter 3:9 The LORD is not slack concerning His promise as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
He is waiting for us to repent, He won't force us to repent.

A great article I found.
http://www.equip.org/article/is-there-salvation-after-death/
 
  • Winner
Reactions: rjs330
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I don't have the time to respond to all of these, but I will respond to this one right now:

12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Are all men drawn to Christ? Or did He draw all judgment?
We aren't at the "end of the story" yet.

Notice my avatar? That's the promise (fulfilled) that the seed of woman will "crush the serpent's head" (Col 2:14-15; 1 Cor 15:56-57)

Referring to John 12, where Jesus prophesies the casting out of the prince of this world because of His death and resurrection, N.T. Wright has said,

Jesus’ death will be the means by which the power that has gripped the world of Greek and Jew alike will be overthrown by the greater power, the power the world never imagined, the revolutionary power of a royal love which loves its own and loves them to the end. Then it will be time for the Greeks to come in, freed from the powers that have hitherto enslaved them.

The dark powers have been defeated so that the powers of love may flood the world.​

************
As far as the Kingdom of Heaven goes (and how it's a process, not an event), I think the parable of the yeast is one place to turn. I agree with this commentary (with the exception that His kingdom has not spread all throughout the world as of yet):


The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough” (Matthew 13:33; cf. Luke 13:20-21).

Jesus uses this story as an object lesson to illustrate the kingdom of heaven. A woman takes yeast (leaven) and mixes it into dough. Eventually, the whole of the dough is leavened. What does it mean?

First, it’s important to define “kingdom of heaven.” By this, Jesus is referring to His domain as the Messiah. In the current age, the kingdom of heaven is spiritual, existing within the hearts of believers (Luke 17:21). Later, the kingdom will be manifest physically, when the Lord Jesus establishes His throne on this earth (Revelation 11:15).

In the Parable of the Leaven, we learn several things about the working of the kingdom in our present age. Each of these lessons stems from the nature of yeast.

First, the kingdom of God may have small beginnings, but it will increase. Yeast is microscopic in size, and only a little is kneaded into the dough. Yet, given time, the yeast will spread through all the dough. In the same way, Jesus’ domain started with twelve men in an obscure corner of Galilee, but it has [will] spread throughout the world. The gospel makes progress.

Second, the kingdom of God exerts its influence from within, not from without. Yeast makes dough rise from within. God first changes the heart of a person, and that internal change has external manifestations. The gospel influence in a culture works the same way: Christians within a culture act as agents of change, slowly transforming that culture from within.

Third, the effect of the kingdom of God will be comprehensive. Just as yeast works until the dough has completely risen, the ultimate benefit of the kingdom of God will be worldwide (Psalm 72:19; Daniel 2:35). “The earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea” (Habakkuk 2:14).

Fourth, although the kingdom of God works invisibly, its effect is evident to all. Yeast does its job slowly, secretly and silently, but no one can deny its effect on bread. The same is true of the work of grace in our hearts.

The nature of yeast is to grow and to change whatever it contacts. When we accept Christ, His grace grows in our hearts and changes us from the inside out. As the gospel transforms lives, it exerts a pervasive influence in the world at large. As we “reflect the Lord's glory, [we] are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit” (2 Corinthians 3:18).~ Parables of Jesus by James Montgomery Boice
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Hillsage
Upvote 0

Doug Melven

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,080
2,576
60
Wyoming
✟83,208.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This is one explanation of that:

The prophecies concerning the destruction of heaven and earth are written in an apocalyptic style. Apocalyptic literature is similar to poetry and is thus not strictly literal. Whenever a nation is conquered and destroyed by a foreign army, the Bible sometimes portrays this tragedy in the language of the destruction of heaven and earth. The fall of Babylon (Isaiah 13:9-13), Israel (Jeremiah 4:23-26), Egypt (Ezekiel 32:7-9) and Edom (Isaiah 34:4-5) in the sixth century B.C. are all depicted together with the destruction of heaven and earth. Just as the sky was not literally and physically destroyed at the fall of these great nations in the sixth century B.C., the sky was also not physically destroyed during Israel’s first century war with Rome.~ Charles S. Meek, Christian Hope through Fulfilled Prophecy: Is Your Church Teaching Error about the Last Days and Second Coming?, (Spicewood, TX: Faith Facts Publishing, 2013), 123.The Destruction of Heaven and Earth and the New Heaven and Earth Explained! - Revelation Revolution



Another understanding (that I'm leaning towards) is: the nature of God’s kingdom is that it is both a present and future reality – i.e., that it is both already-and-not-yet, inaugurated but not consummated.~Amillennialism and The “Future” Kingdom of God | Monergism

For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make,
shall remain before me, says the Lord,
so shall your descendants and your name remain.~Isaiah 66:22

The-Destruction-of-the-Temple-at-Jerusalem-300x220.jpg

The slaughter in Jerusalem and its temple in A.D. 70 fulfills Isaiah 66:6: “Hear that uproar from the city, hear that noise from the Temple! It is the sound of the LORD repaying his enemies all they deserve.”


....and you're also making assumptions. There's no way for either of us to know for certain.


.
....and they have that belief due to human misrepresentation of God (and fun!). I doubt that will be the response when they actually experience His untarnished love and glory.
This is the post I was referring to earlier when I asked you what the destruction verses have to do with the amilennial kingdom of God doctrine.
What do they have to do with each other.
Like I said before I believe the kingdom of God is here, it is within us. Luke 17:20-21, Romans 14:17
But I am not an amillenial.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Doug Melven

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,080
2,576
60
Wyoming
✟83,208.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't understand the point you're trying to make by posting this? Are you denying that Jesus was accused of and mocked for being considered the "King of the Jews"?
You said earlier that Jesus was crucified for claiming to be King of the Jews.
They mocked Him as King of the Jews, but He was crucified for claiming to be the Son of God according to John 19:7
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
You said earlier that Jesus was crucified for claiming to be King of the Jews.
They mocked Him as King of the Jews, but He was crucified for claiming to be the Son of God according to John 19:7
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
That epithet was put on by a Roman ruler. I do think the 'son of God' claim of the Jews wasn't really part of why Pilate sentenced him to death. It was because of the perceived threat of Jesus to lead an insurrection against Rome. Does that POV make sense to you?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
22,484
6,050
64
✟336,303.00
Faith
Pentecostal
"Love never fails"......

View attachment 221016

God's live never fails. Never. He lives people all the way to hell and punishment. That's why he not willing that any should perish but wants all men to come to repentance.

But only those that believe get saved. Those that do not believe are sent to hell. The love of God is as eternal as his justice. His justice as eternal as his love. Love and justice are two different things. That's why John 3:16ff is so important. Only those that believe are saved. The scriptures cannot contradict themselves. The Bible teaches that Jesus died to save the world. It also teaches that there will be eternal punishment. Both cannot be true. So the answer is "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Jesus died to save everyone, but only those that believe are saved. I might provide enough food to feed the whole world, but if they don't choose to take it it does them no good.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
From John 18:28-38

28 Then they brought Jesus from Caiaphas to the Roman governor’s residence. (Now it was very early morning.) They did not go into the governor’s residence so they would not be ceremonially defiled, but could eat the Passover meal. 29 So Pilate came outside to them and said, “What accusation do you bring against this man?” 30 They replied, “If this man were not a criminal, we would not have handed him over to you.” 31 Pilate told them, “Take him yourselves and pass judgment on him according to your own law!” The Jewish religious leaders replied, “We cannot legally put anyone to death.” 32 This happened to fulfill the word Jesus spoke indicating what kind of death he was going to die. 33 So Pilate went back into the governor’s residence, summoned Jesus, and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” 34 Jesus replied, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or have others said it to you about me?” 35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own people and your chief priests handed you over to me. What have you done?” 36 Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would fight to prevent me being handed over to the Jewish authorities. But now my kingdom is not from here.” 37 Then Pilate said, “So you are a king!” Jesus replied, “You say that I am a king. I have been born and have come into the world for this reason—to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” 38 Pilate asked, “What is truth?”
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
God's live never fails. Never. He lives people all the way to hell and punishment.
Well......that sounds like a pretty disturbed way to love us (in my opinion).

That's why he not willing that any should perish but wants all men to come to repentance.
.....and I believe He is not disappointed in that. I believe He will be victorious.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hillsage
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
This is the post I was referring to earlier when I asked you what the destruction verses have to do with the amilennial kingdom of God doctrine.
What do they have to do with each other.
Like I said before I believe the kingdom of God is here, it is within us. Luke 17:20-21, Romans 14:17
But I am not an amillenial.
I've never really paid too much attention to those sorts of labels. From what I'm understanding, the "amillenial" label has to do with Revelation (rejecting the belief that Jesus will have a literal thousand-year-long, physical reign on earth from a throne in Jerusalem, but not rejecting an earthly future for God's kingdom). I think it confuses the issue to try to focus on a whole system of belief (and either try to prove or disprove it--especially when I'm not that familiar with *what* an amillenial believes).

I think it's less confusing to discuss the Scripture directly (and what we specifically believe/disbelieve). What is it about amillenialism that you reject?

ETA: Okay....I did find this related to "inaugurated eschatology":


1. Christ has won the decisive victory over sin, death and Satan. By living a sinless life and by dying on the cross as the sacrifice of atonement for our sin, Christ defeated sin. By undergoing death and then victoriously rising from the grave, Christ defeated death. By resisting the devil’s temptations, by perfectly obeying God, and by his death and resurrection, Christ delivered a deathblow to Satan and his evil hosts. This victory of Christ’s was decisive and final. The most important day in history, therefore, is not the Second Coming of Christ which is still future but the first coming which lies in the past. Because of the victory of Christ, the ultimate issues of history have already been decided. It is now only a question of time until that victory is brought to its final consummation.~"Amillennialism: A Brief Sketch of Amillennial Eschatology" by Anthony Hoekema

And you asked what that has to do with the destruction verses? Did you not open the link? It's recognized within this framework that the tribulation period and the destruction period is already behind us (and that the victory of Christ has already been established...although not fully consummated). It's also not believed that the kingdom of God is primarily a Jewish kingdom which involves the literal restoration of the throne of David (because Matthew 24; Luke 21; and Mark 13 are about the destruction of the Jewish age--the end of God's old covenant and beginning of the New Covenant).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Has "heaven and earth passed away"? That's what you're asking....right, Doug?

Do you believe the Old Covenant has been done away with?

Jesus said:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law and the Prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled". [Matthew 5:17-18]

And the NRSVA version:
‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Quoting from Don K Preston:

How did the prophets use the term heaven and earth?

The prophet Isaiah predicted the passing of heaven and earth in chapter 24. He said the earth would be utterly broken down, clean dissolved, and completely removed, vs. 19. Now this sounds like the destruction of material creation but closer examination reveals it to be speaking of the destruction of Israel's Covenant World under the imagery of "heaven and earth". Note verse 5 gives the reason for the destruction--"they have broken the everlasting covenant". What covenant was that? It was the Mosaic Covenant! God was going to destroy "heaven and earth" because Israel had broken her covenant with Jehovah! Are we to believe that one day the universe will be destroyed because Israel broke her covenant?

A dilemma is created for the literal interpretation of the text when we come to verse 22. In these verses God is depicted as dwelling gloriously in Mount Zion, that is, in Jerusalem, after the destruction of heaven and earth. Reader, if the earth has been destroyed how could literal Mount Zion still exist? We believe the best explanation is to see Isaiah predicting the destruction of Israel's COVENANT heaven and earth because she had violated the Mosaic Covenant with Jehovah. As a result God's righteousness would remain in a New Zion--in a new COVENANT heaven and earth.

Another example of "heaven and earth" being referent to the Covenant World of Israel and not literal creation is Isaiah 51:16.

"I have put my word in your mouth and have covered

you with the shadow of my hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are my people'". [NASV]

[Unfortunately, the New International Version incorrectly translates this verse. Check several translations.]

What is the point? Notice that God is speaking to Israel. He says he gave them his law, the Mosaic Covenant, the same law Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 5:17-18, to establish heaven and lay the foundation of the earth! Clearly Jehovah is not saying he gave the Mosaic Covenant to Israel to create literal heaven and earth! Material creation existed long before Israel was ever given the Mosaic Covenant.

The meaning of the verse is that Jehovah gave his covenant with Israel to CREATE THEIR WORLD--A COVENANT WORLD WITH JEHOVAH!

God created Israel's "heaven and earth" by giving them his Covenant. Now if he destroyed THAT Old Covenant heaven and earth and gave a NEW COVENANT, would he not thereby be creating a NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH? This is precisely the thought in the NEW COVENANT SCRIPTURES!~https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_preston_heaven-passed.html
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Doug Melven

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,080
2,576
60
Wyoming
✟83,208.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That epithet was put on by a Roman ruler. I do think the 'son of God' claim of the Jews wasn't really part of why Pilate sentenced him to death. It was because of the perceived threat of Jesus to lead an insurrection against Rome. Does that POV make sense to you?
No.
Pilate didn't even want to crucify Jesus.
Pilate found no fault in Jesus, wanted to release Him.
Pilate washed his hands of the whole thing.
Pilate would have released Barabbas, but the Jews would not have that.

Do you believe the Old Covenant has been done away with?
Not done away with. It is obsolete.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
In verse 8, when He says "finding fault with them", it was us humans that were faulty because of our sin nature.
Because we could not keep the Old Covenant, He made a New Covenant that wasn't up to us to keep. All we need do is put our faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
There is no more old covenant, all the sacrifices are no longer acceptable.
There are no saved jews following the old covenant today.
Even in the OC, people lived by faith, not the sacrifices. The sacrificial system was to educate the people about Christ to come and be the sacrifice to take away their sins. that system was exacting and rigorous having to be followed to the letter of the law or you were a transgressor.

Paul demonstrates In Romans 1, from old to new covenant, as it is written here.
Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith.
Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

Galatians 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

Galatians 3:12
Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0