1 John 1:8

Jason0047 said:

I will add a commentary within the verse to help you understand.

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Your novel and unorthodox interpretation is not going to convince me.

Some folks believe God directly creates evil on a faulty misinterpretation or reading of Isaiah 45:7. Sure, it sounds like God creates evil by reading this verse, doesn’t it? However, if the interpretation violates God’s goodness or basic morality for man, chances are it is a faulty interpretation. This is what many people are doing when they read 1 John 1:8. They also have to rip 1 John 1:8 out of it’s context to justify that we will always be in sin, as well (Compare 1 John 1:8 with 1 John 2:3-4, and 1 John 3:7-10).

Radagast said:

Your novel and unorthodox interpretation is not going to convince me.

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I just plant seeds and another waters, but it is God who gives the increase.

Also, Jesus said narrow is the way. So it is not the popular belief that is always right.

Jason0047 said:

Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

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It says exactly what it says.

Adding volumes to scripture that is razor sharp doesn’t change a thing.

Jason0047 said:

While new believers may stumble into sin on occasion, nowhere does 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:1 teach that we sin 24/7 or every second of every day. On the contrary, 1 John 2:4 says that if we say we know Him [Jesus] and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us.

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No. We as believers are decrepit in the flesh. The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

His strength is perfected in our weakness.

Sin occasionally?!?

Down play much?!? Total dependence on what Jesus did is a good idea! To even suggest that a single human being isn’t riddled with bullet holes in the flesh is utter nonsense. (Only one walked a single hour / eternal lifetime without sinning in any way)

We either need His Blood constantly or we don’t.

Shall we sin that grace may abound? Absolutely Not! But Love covers a multitude of sin!

It’s our job to focus on what He did and not what we do. We Love because we are Loved...

Complication of this leads to arrogance, hypocrisy and even an attitude that drives people away from Jesus Christ that spot double speak a million miles away.

Sugar coat it? Nope. We’re Gritty and the Gospel is Grittier...

If I white the outside of a sepulcher... dead, rotten bones are still within it...

That’s a biblical point to understand!

A cloak isn’t our new bodies... we don’t have those yet. Can you run and not grow weary?

End of line.

Jason0047 said:

I just plant seeds and another waters, but it is God who gives the increase.

Also, Jesus said narrow is the way. So it is not the popular belief that is always right.

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Self righteousness is the popular way. Even Athiests believe in a God that created people and demands perfection! That’s why they choose to be Athiests! The double standard immediately smells like bull excretion and they miss the actual message Jesus Desires us to deliver to all!

How Sinless do you think you have to be to get in to heaven?

Think about this carefully... because Jesus died / Ransomed Smoking Gun Guilty sinners out of LOVE.

Any other message is a counterfeit lie from Satan!

Satan is the perfectionist that wants mankind to fear every error they make and judge others.

I.e. “Accuser of the brethren”.

justbyfaith said:

How about what it says in Hebrews 9:13-14 Dan?

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You are “Judahizing”...

If you don’t understand Jewish Law and demanding adherence to ordinances of any kind to obtain salvation... you’re not reading it right.

Two Covenants...

New, yet the oldest and sweetest and the Old Covenant...

Which one do you look towards?

Mr. Miaghi said it best...

Romans 8:3 is so clear it is impossible to miss.

Any “Sinless humanity now” teaching is of the PIT! Pride is the Devil’s favorite bed fellow!

1 John 2:2 says He died for all sin of ALL people. If that meant to abolish mankind’s desire to sin... and Romans 8:3 is coupled with 1 John 2:2 ... then sin would be gone and utopia would be NOW.

Is this world a utopia?

OP fully rebutted!!!

Grip Docility said:

It says exactly what it says.

Adding volumes to scripture that is razor sharp doesn’t change a thing.

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1 John 1:8 does mean exactly what it says. However, you and others here are reading it wrong. For example: People (even self professing believers) wrongfully think that God directly creates evil in Isaiah 45:7.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7).

It seems to me people want to justify the wrong type of thinking when they read the Bible plainly for whatever their agenda might be. It doesn't really matter what 1 John 1:8 says in light of your belief. For you already start off with the wrong presuppositional belief that says you can sin and still be saved. So the Bible has to fit that view or thinking (even when you may run into many verses or passages that contradict that kind of belief).

Again, 1 John 1:8 says if we say we have no sin, it is referencing the fact that we have no sin even when we may sin.

"If we say that we have no sin [when or if we do sin], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8).

It is a denial of sin's existence. For 1 John 1:10 moves this denial of sin into a past declaration. It is saying if we say we have not sinned (past tense). Now look, friend. I believe we have sinned in the past alright. You believe we have sinned in the past as a part of our old life. So this is talking about a false gnostic belief that denies sin as a warning to the brethren.

Jason0047 said:

1 John 1:8 does mean exactly what it says. However, you and others here are reading it wrong. For example: People (even self professing believers) wrongfully think that God directly creates evil in Isaiah 45:7.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7).

It seems to me people want to justify the wrong type of thinking when they read the Bible plainly for whatever their agenda might be. It doesn't really matter what 1 John 1:8 says in light of your belief. For you already start off with the wrong presuppositional belief that says you can sin and still be saved. So the Bible has to fit that view or thinking (even when you may run into many verses or passages that contradict that kind of belief).

Again, 1 John 1:8 says if we say we have no sin, it is referencing the fact that we have no sin even when we may sin.

"If we say that we have no sin [when or if we do sin], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8).

It is a denial of sin's existence. For 1 John 1:10 moves this denial of sin into a past declaration. It is saying if we say we have not sinned (past tense). Now look, friend. I believe we have sinned in the past alright. You believe we have sinned in the past as a part of our old life. So this is talking about a false gnostic belief that denies sin as a warning to the brethren.

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The Sinless crew is so vain it would rather make God a liar than admit their humanity with humility.

Grip Docility said:

It says exactly what it says.

Adding volumes to scripture that is razor sharp doesn’t change a thing.

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Okay. So if you believe 1 John 1:8 is a license for you to sin and still be saved, then how do you interpret 1 John 2:4?

1 John 2:4 says,
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

This verse above here essentially says if we say we know him [Christ] and we do not keep his commandments, we are a liar and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:4 says sin is the breaking of the Law (i.e. the commandments).

Yet, you are saying we will always sin (i.e. not keep His commandments).

The Bible tells me that if a person says they know Jesus and yet they do not keeping His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. How does this work with your interpretation of 1 John 1:8?

It doesn't.

How about 1 John 3:10?

It says he that does not righteousness is not of God.

1 John 3:15 says if anyone hates his brother he has no eternal life abiding in him.

Grip Docility said:

The Sinless crew is so vain it would rather make God a liar than admit their humanity with humility.

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Is this the only argument you have?
Please. Let's use some Scripture and steer clear from any use of an ad hominem.

Jason0047 said:

Okay. So if you believe 1 John 1:8 is a license for you to sin and still be saved, then how do you interpret 1 John 2:4?

1 John 2:4 says,
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

This verse above here essentially says if we say we know him [Christ] and we do not keep his commandments, we are a liar and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:4 says sin is the breaking of the Law (i.e. the commandments).

Yet, you are saying we will always sin (i.e. not keep His commandments).

The Bible tells me that if a person says they know Jesus and yet they do not keeping His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. How does this work with your interpretation of 1 John 1:8?

It doesn't.

How about 1 John 3:10?

It says he that does not righteousness is not of God.

1 John 3:15 says if anyone hates his brother he has no eternal life abiding in him.

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Unrepentant Hypocrisy disgusts me!!!

How about you and crew live feed film your lives 24 hours a day... publically... without one second of turning away...

Marital situations, showers and bathroom breaks as an exception and show us how a person lives without sinning.

Funny how Romans declares All unrighteous.

Anyhow... shoot the live web feed address and put your life where your theology is or admit your lies...

Also... frequent lie detection tests that reveal your personal thoughts will be required every 2 days.

Signing up?

Jason0047 said:

Is this the only argument you have?
Please. Let's use some Scripture and steer clear from any use of an ad hominem.

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Zero ad hominem.

1 John 1:8 to the letter.

Jason0047 said:

I just plant seeds and another waters, but it is God who gives the increase.

Also, Jesus said narrow is the way. So it is not the popular belief that is always right.

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Narrow way... as in all that enter any other way are thieves and robbers...

As in... He alone saves.

As in... He alone is Savior... not you or your filthy rags.

As in... You lock up the kingdom with your interpretation and invalidate the need for His Death, Burial and Ressurection with your dishonesty.

Narrow way... Literal Meaning is a Jewish refrence to the temple or tabrinacle gate.

Grip Docility said:

No. We as believers are decrepit in the flesh.

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That doesn't sound like Scripture. For it is written,

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

You said:

The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

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Nowhere do these words of Jesus suggest that we will always sin.

Jesus said pray so as not to be led into temptation. In addition, Scripture also says,

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:4-8).

You said:

His strength is perfected in our weakness.

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This is what I am talking about. You are reading Scripture in light of your belief in OSAS and not in view of what the context says. 2 Corinthians 12:9 is not talking about weakness as in reference to sin. Please. Please read the context by looking at verses 7-8 and the latter half of verses 9, and then verse 10.

You said:

Sin occasionally?!?

Down play much?!?

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I know it is hard for you to believe but the life of a Christian is not characterized by a life of sin. Jesus is in the life changing business.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:" (Colossians 3:7-10).

You said:

Total dependence on what Jesus did is a good idea! To even suggest that a single human being isn’t riddled with bullet holes in the flesh is utter nonsense. (Only one walked a single hour / eternal lifetime without sinning in any way)

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I think a total dependance on Jesus is good. If a person were to do this they would obey His commands. Jesus said, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17). Which ones? The Moral Law (of course). Keep reading in Matthew 19.

You said:

We either need His Blood constantly or we don’t.

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And how do you make sure you have the blood cleansing you? 1 John 1:7 gives us the answer. It says we have to walk in the light as he [Christ] is in the light.

You said:

Shall we sin that grace may abound? Absolutely Not!

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But according to you if one does not say they are in sin then they are lying, right? So the idea of Paul saying that we may sin so that grace may abound with the answer "no" does really mean anything with your belief (Unless of course you care to explain).

You said:

But Love covers a multitude of sin!

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One is not loving if they are also sinning.
It's ironic. You quote 1 Peter 4:8. However, if you were to skip up and read 1 Peter 4:1-2 it would tell you that you can cease from sin.

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

You said:

It’s our job to focus on what He did and not what we do.

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Where is that type of thinking in Scripture? When I read Scripture I hear of warnings and enduring to the end and the consequences of what will happen in the afterlife if we were to disobey God's commands.

You said:

We Love because we are Loved...

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When you read 1 John 4:19, you also have to read 1 John 4:8 that says,

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." (1 John 4:8).

How can we have an assurance in knowing God?

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3).

You said:

Complication of this leads to arrogance, hypocrisy and even an attitude that drives people away from Jesus Christ that spot double speak a million miles away.

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In OSAS, it says you can sin and still be saved. Yet, the Bible says we can walk righteously and upright with the Lord. God gives us commands to obey Him and not to disobey Him. Many today will see that as hypocritical. So I am not sure you are making a case that truly helps you here.

You said:

Sugar coat it? Nope. We’re Gritty and the Gospel is Grittier...

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No. The end goal of the gospel is not what you think it is. It does not allow you to remain in your sins with the thinking you are saved. It doesn't work like that. Please read Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14 for the end goal of the gospel.

You said:

If I white the outside of a sepulcher... dead, rotten bones are still within it...

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Sigh. Jesus's point was not that we all cannot help but to sin when he condemned the Pharisees as white washed tombs. Jesus told the Pharisees to clean the inside of the cup first. Do you even know what that means?

You said:

That’s a biblical point to understand!

A cloak isn’t our new bodies... we don’t have those yet. Can you run and not grow weary?

End of line.

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New bodies are only given to those believers who remained faithful to the Lord.
For do you know what happens to the unprofitable servant according to Scripture?

Grip Docility said:

Narrow way... as in all that enter any other way are thieves and robbers...

As in... He alone saves.

As in... He alone is Savior... not you or your filthy rags.

As in... You lock up the kingdom with your interpretation and invalidate the need for His Death, Burial and Ressurection with your dishonesty.

Narrow way... Literal Meaning is a Jewish refrence to the temple or tabrinacle gate.

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Yeah, but OSAS is not the narrow way (that is mentioned in Matthew 7). It is the easy and wide gate path that everyone else is on. Most churches belief in OSAS these days. It is the popular belief because it makes an allowance for a believer to think they can do evil and be in God's good graces. For it is easy to do the wrong thing.

In fact, read Matthew 7. You will see nothing about OSAS in that chapter. On the contrary, it talks about how the believer who thought he did wonderful works was told by Jesus to depart from Him because he also worked iniquity (sin). Matthew 7:26-27 likens a man who does not do what Jesus says as a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

Jason0047 said:

Yeah, but OSAS is not the narrow way. It is the easy and wide gate path that everyone else is on. Most churches belief in OSAS these days. It is the popular belief because it makes an allowance for a believer to think they can do evil and be in God's good graces. For it is easy to do the wrong thing.

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Do you still sin and repent? Do you have sins you repent of on a daily basis? Are you without sin in your flesh...

Spoiler alert... I do... and you will refuse to answer with the use of “deflection”.

Gee... I wonder why?

Grip Docility said:

Do you still sin and repent? Do you have sins you repent of on a daily basis? Are you without sin in your flesh...

Spoiler alert... I do... and you will refuse to answer with the use of “deflection”.

Gee... I wonder why?

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There are days I do not sin. Can you stop sinning for 5 seconds or for 5 minutes?
Do you think a man of God can go into a forest with just a Bible and study it for a month and pray to God the whole time? Do you think that such a thing is not possible? Also, God's Word is true even if nobody obeys it. Remember Noah? Only Noah and his family were spared. The rest of the world perished because they were wicked.