For all that fear hell

mkgal1

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I do see them as totally distinct. And you? How do you see it? And can you support your POV with scripture, like I did? Or should I say, tried to support?
Totally distinct? You believe the "Son of God" is still God....right? Or....can you elaborate?

Do you mean you supported your belief that they are distinct from each other (Son of God and the Word) when you quoted John 1?

I have the traditional Trinitarian beliefs (Fr Richard Rohr/Mike Morrell do an excellent job describing God's eternal "dance" of the power of love, in my opinion). I do believe the Orthodox churches have a good point that God reveals to the Church and that we ought not go outside what's been corporately believed (and I'm a bit of a law abider.. ;) ). That is why I felt as if everything landed in place for me when I found out a lot of the beliefs I'd been taught (penal substitution theory and Dante's inferno hell, etc) were actually *modern* beliefs....not what the Orthodox church (with a capital "O") believes.

I will have to get back to you with biblical support. That term "Son of God" does seem to cause a lot of confusion....and separation from God.
 
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Doug Melven

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Replace "fire" with LOVE,
This is called eisegesis.
You're still holding onto the idea that a person has to say certain words (it seems).
With the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10
Simply saying some words will do you no good whatsoever.
Accepting Christ as Savior is absolutely essential.
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
God loves every person who ever lived or who ever will live. But, if someone rejects Him, He will reject them.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
But another thing that confuses me about that question is, if it were possible to NOT respond in love immediately......why would we ever consider postponing to love a God like ours?
Why indeed?
But, countless people spurn the love of God because they want there own life.
 
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Hillsage

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Right.....I do prefer the use of "Word" instead of Son of God as well (but I think it's also necessary to make the distinction between "Son of God" and "Son of Man" as well, since those terms are used in the Bible--does that make sense?
Yes it makes perfect sense to me. But then so does the way I did make a distinction between those two terms. And when Jesus was on earth He was both of them. He was "son of God" 46 times in the NT, and "son of man" 84 times. They run concurrently in the time of the NT.

I'm also struggling with your use of "sinful flesh" as attributed to Jesus. Are you saying that because it's said "He took on our sin"? To me that seems to be separating "flesh" from "spirit" like the beliefs of the Gnostics that vilified the flesh. To my mind.....one of the most eye-opening things to think about is how God (in Jesus) was literally encased in human flesh when He was in Mary's womb. Human flesh can't be that detestable to God (but, obviously, sin is!).
No, I'm saying He was "to be made like unto his brethren/us in every respect", and that would include our sin nature, which is 'sinful flesh' inherited from Adam. And the reason He had to 'take on our sin' was because there was no sin in him. He had to take our sin to die in our place because death had no place in Him because He overcame sin.
 
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Hillsage

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Totally distinct? You believe the "Son of God" is still God....right? Or....can you elaborate?
Oh boy, here I go. I believe ''the word was God" as scripture plainly states. I also believe the Word gave up equality with God to become the 'flesh' of a man, as scripture also states;

PHI 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he WAS in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

What do you think 'God the Word' emptied himself of, to be come a man of flesh in this verse above?

Jesus 'the Christ' then worked his way back to the fully God status when He became totally obedient to the Father even unto physical death. His Christ spirit immediately returned to the Father according to Jesus on the cross "into thy hands I commend MY spirit."

Jesus the Christ was then subsequently restored to fully God status;

PHI 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Do you mean you supported your belief that they are distinct from each other (Son of God and the Word) when you quoted John 1?
That's my POV, yes.

I have the traditional Trinitarian beliefs (Fr Richard Rohr/Mike Morrel do an excellent job describing God's eternal "dance" of the power of love, in my opinion). I do believe the Orthodox churches have a good point that God reveals to the Church and that we ought not go outside what's been corporately believed (and I'm a bit of a law abider.. ;) ). That is why I felt as if everything landed in place for me when I found out a lot of the beliefs I'd been taught (penal substitution theory and Dante's inferno hell, etc) were actually *modern* beliefs....not what the Orthodox church (with a capital "O") believes.
I thought you just said a few posts back you were in the process of tearing down everything you once believed????? I agreed, me to, and this is what I've built back that seems to agree more with scripture than what orthodoxy (small "O") believes....for me anyway. :)

I will have to get back to you with biblical support. That term "Son of God" does seem to cause a lot of confusion....and separation from God.
Take your time. I'm leaving to be a server for a Men's Encounter retreat tomorrow after lunch and won't be back until Sunday nite.
 
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mkgal1

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No, I'm saying He was "to be made like unto his brethren/us in every respect", and that would include our sin nature, which is 'sinful flesh' inherited from Adam. And the reason He had to 'take on our sin' was because there was no sin in him. He had to take our sin to die in our place because death had no place in Him because He overcame sin.
:idea:.......oh like St Gregory of Nazianzen is known for saying, “What has not been assumed has not been healed”.

Wow! Why do we not EVER hear *anything* close to that being preached (or is it by some and I'm just unaware?)...?
 
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mkgal1

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Oh boy, here I go. I believe ''the word was God" as scripture plainly states. I also believe the Word gave up equality with God to become the 'flesh' of a man, as scripture also states;

PHI 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he WAS in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

What do you think 'God the Word' emptied himself of, to be come a man of flesh in this verse above?

Jesus 'the Christ' then worked his way back to the fully God status when He became totally obedient to the Father even unto physical death. His Christ spirit immediately returned to the Father according to Jesus on the cross "into thy hands I commend MY spirit."

Jesus the Christ was then subsequently restored to fully God status;

PHI 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Thank you for this post!

This now makes more sense out of a lot of passages that I knew I was only vaguely understanding (and it's completely in line with the Athanasian Creed).
 
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Hillsage

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Interesting. I've never heard that perspective before. So....you believe He "undid" sin by dwelling in sinful flesh (yet not sinning).....is that correct?
I think he conquered the sin nature by never sinning. But I suppose you could say "undid sin" too. :)
 
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mkgal1

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I thought you just said a few posts back you were in the process of tearing down everything you once believed?????
Yes....but some of those pieces keep finding their way back into my structure....
 
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Hillsage

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:idea:.......oh like St Gregory of Nazianzen is known for saying, “What has not been assumed has not been healed”.
Not sure I even know what he means there.

Wow! Why do we not EVER hear *anything* close to that being preached (or is it by some and I'm just unaware?)...?
This is how the bible speaks to me concerning all these things. I don't know anyone preaching or teaching it. It's my opinion and it's bible, as far as I'm concerned.
 
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Hillsage

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Trying to tidy up before leaving for the men's retreat, so this will be my last post. I wanted to elaborate on this quote of yours mkgal1.

Totally distinct? You believe the "Son of God" is still God....right? Or....can you elaborate?
For the 'spirit of Christ' to make Jesus 'God in the flesh', would also mandate that we are God because the 'spirit of Christ' is in us after being born from above. Do you feel like 'you are God'? I don't. :)

P.S. we are really 'OFF TOPIC', and probably ought to get back ON. I did enjoy this little bunny trail down the corridors of my thinking on these things. :clap:

Have a good weekend ALL.
 
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mkgal1

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Then Jesus says 3 times: 44, 46, 48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If Jesus repeats something like that, we should take special notice.
I agree...we *should* take special notice. For us it may be a bit more difficult to pick up on, but the Jews Jesus spoke to would have immediately recognized this phrase from Isaiah 66:24...and those that heard His warning would have fled to the mountains:

They will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
If that's some underworld place....how would they be able to go out and look on the dead bodies?
This is called eisegesis.
It's eisegesis that causes a person to not recognize that this prophesy in Isaiah 66 that Jesus quoted when He spoke (His words recorded in Matthew, Mark, and Luke) was fulfilled in 70AD.

In my opinion, that steals away a bit of His glory (temporarily tarnishing how others perceive Him)......to dismiss the fulfillment of a prophesy He warned of (and how those that listened *were* saved!).
Why indeed?
But, countless people spurn the love of God because they want there own life.
In this world maybe.....where material things are valued. But....in a different value system...where love and righteousness are of genuine value, I believe those same people will eventually be able to come around. That's my hope. In the meantime, I think it's our privilege to demonstrate the true and great value of love.

You had asked, though, why put our hope and faith in Christ now if it were possible to postpone it to later. I was asking what benefit there is to postponing. Are you implying you sometimes have a case of FOMO (fear of missing out)?
 
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Roseonathorn

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The Lord told us to show forgiveness toward our enemies, but He will be the judge. We can expect that He judges fairly. He knows our hearts and intentions, our greed or generosity even though we might lack money, our courage or lack of it, our desire to follow Him, even though we might work in a hard workenvironment where people do not think much of God. Also depending on the country we need to be a bit careful with how we evangelize so we do not loose our life immediatedly, God might need us a bit longer here than 24 hours.
 
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Doug Melven

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It's eisegesis that causes a person to not recognize that this prophesy in Isaiah 66 that Jesus quoted when He spoke (His words recorded in Matthew, Mark, and Luke) was fulfilled in 70AD.
Did they have a New Heavens and a New Earth in 70 AD?
66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

These verse are clearly talking about when there will be New Heaven and a New Earth.
In this world maybe.....where material things are valued. But....in a different value system...where love and righteousness are of genuine value, I believe those same people will eventually be able to come around. That's my hope.
You are assuming that people will have a chance to change when this life is over.
In this life, we have a chance to repent. Not in the next life.
Next life there will only be judgment.

In the meantime, I think it's our privilege to demonstrate the true and great value of love.
Keep on doing this.

You had asked, though, why put our hope and faith in Christ now if it were possible to postpone it to later. I was asking what benefit there is to postponing. Are you implying you sometimes have a case of FOMO (fear of missing out)?
There is the account of King Agrippa in Acts 26.
26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
26:29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

He was not persuaded to become a Christian.

Then we have Demas.
2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world,

Jesus in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13
13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

There are many reasons people will deny God and His Word.
Whether or not you believe this constitutes loss of salvation is not the issue.
But, the fact that people will choose something besides an intimate relationship with God is the key issue here.
And many people do have FOMO, thinking if they choose Christ, they will have to give up any fun whatsoever.
.
 
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mkgal1

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Did they have a New Heavens and a New Earth in 70 AD?
This is one explanation of that:

The prophecies concerning the destruction of heaven and earth are written in an apocalyptic style. Apocalyptic literature is similar to poetry and is thus not strictly literal. Whenever a nation is conquered and destroyed by a foreign army, the Bible sometimes portrays this tragedy in the language of the destruction of heaven and earth. The fall of Babylon (Isaiah 13:9-13), Israel (Jeremiah 4:23-26), Egypt (Ezekiel 32:7-9) and Edom (Isaiah 34:4-5) in the sixth century B.C. are all depicted together with the destruction of heaven and earth. Just as the sky was not literally and physically destroyed at the fall of these great nations in the sixth century B.C., the sky was also not physically destroyed during Israel’s first century war with Rome.~ Charles S. Meek, Christian Hope through Fulfilled Prophecy: Is Your Church Teaching Error about the Last Days and Second Coming?, (Spicewood, TX: Faith Facts Publishing, 2013), 123.The Destruction of Heaven and Earth and the New Heaven and Earth Explained! - Revelation Revolution



Another understanding (that I'm leaning towards) is: the nature of God’s kingdom is that it is both a present and future reality – i.e., that it is both already-and-not-yet, inaugurated but not consummated.~Amillennialism and The “Future” Kingdom of God | Monergism

For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make,
shall remain before me, says the Lord,
so shall your descendants and your name remain.~Isaiah 66:22

The-Destruction-of-the-Temple-at-Jerusalem-300x220.jpg

The slaughter in Jerusalem and its temple in A.D. 70 fulfills Isaiah 66:6: “Hear that uproar from the city, hear that noise from the Temple! It is the sound of the LORD repaying his enemies all they deserve.”

You are assuming that people will have a chance to change when this life is over.
In this life, we have a chance to repent. Not in the next life.
Next life there will only be judgment.
....and you're also making assumptions. There's no way for either of us to know for certain.

And many people do have FOMO, thinking if they choose Christ, they will have to give up any fun whatsoever.
.
....and they have that belief due to human misrepresentation of God (and fun!). I doubt that will be the response when they actually experience His untarnished love and glory.
 
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Doug Melven

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None of those verse you cited talk about a New Heaven and a New Earth.
God says He will make this, not He already made it.
This current Earth will be gone. It will be burnt up.
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up..
...and you're also making assumptions. There's no way for either of us to know for certain.
God's Word says it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgment. Hebrews 9:27

But, you tell people it is not necessary to repent in this life, cause they will still be saved because they can wait till the next life to repent.

...and they have that belief due to human misrepresentation of God (and fun!). I doubt that will be the response when they actually experience His untarnished love and glory.
No, they won't have that response when standing before the Great White Throne.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is nothing restorative about this fire.
If someone could be saved by being purified in this fire Jesus would not have had to go through what He did.
He prayed if there was another way for us to have fellowship with God, let this cup pass from Him.
Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

I know your probably going to say there was no way I could know what Jesus was praying about.
There was only one cup Jesus could have been talking about, and that was His Crucifixion with the fire of God's wrath being poured out on Him.
That is the fire whereby we can be cleansed from our sin.
 
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mkgal1

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None of those verse you cited talk about a New Heaven and a New Earth.
God says He will make this, not He already made it.
I realize that (it doesn't say that specifically), the point was the language of destruction of heaven and earth in those passages (used when a nation was conquered by another army). I'm not so sure that's it, though, that's why I also posted this:

Another understanding (that I'm leaning towards) is: the nature of God’s kingdom is that it is both a present and future reality – i.e., that it is both already-and-not-yet, inaugurated but not consummated.~Amillennialism and The “Future” Kingdom of God | Monergism

For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make,
shall remain before me, says the Lord,
so shall your descendants and your name remain.~Isaiah 66:22
 
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mkgal1

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There's also this to consider:

Throughout the Bible, “earth” represents Israel. See In the Bible “Earth” Signifies the Specific Land Addressed While “Sea” Symbolizes Foreign Nations. The destruction of Israel, the earth, began shortly thereafter when the Roman army arrived, crushed the Jewish revolt, burned the province and left Israel a charred wasteland. Therefore, the destruction of the earth representing Israel by fire predicted in 2 Peter 3 was fulfilled in Rome’s scorched earth policy during the Jewish War. Furthermore, at the final supernatural and miraculous appearance of Christ at the death of the beast, a famous catastrophe hurled fire into the sky and upon the earth; darkened the sun, moon and stars; and killed untold numbers. In Roman History 60.23.5, Cassius Dio says that those that witnessed the event believed that all of heaven and earth had been destroyed:“[T]hose close at hand, believed that the whole world was being turned upside down, that the sun was disappearing into the earth and that the earth was being lifted to the sky.”

In Revelation, Earth represents Israel, while Sea represents Gentile Rome. This Symbolism pictures the Roman Conquest of Israel as a Metaphorical Flood preceding the Creation of the New Earth in the same way that the Earth was created in Genesis 1:2.
~2 Peter 3:5-13: A Preterist Commentary - Revelation Revolution
 
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Doug Melven

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Another understanding (that I'm leaning towards) is: the nature of God’s kingdom is that it is both a present and future reality – i.e., that it is both already-and-not-yet, inaugurated but not consummated

I have no problem with this at all, but I am not an amilennial.
The kingdom of God is within us. Luke 17:20-21
The kingdom of God is righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. Romans 14:17

But, what does one have to do with the other?
 
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