Nephilim

Sanoy said:

Great. Then meet my challenge. Quote a single person from Jesus's time or before that believed the "Sons of God" were men. The reason you can't is because that idea did not exist until around the 5-6 century. That is why it is a modern heresy. Literally 0 scriptural authors believed in that theory. Not even Paul himself who told women to cover their heads for the sake of the Angels. Or the author of Jude who quotes the Book of Enoch as prophecy.

Your belief that angels can only become Ken dolls is complete speculation that is not found in the Bible.

In Jude 38:7 Tell me how mankind is witnessing the formation of the earth? You can't, because Sons of God are not men.

Tell me why the translators of the LLX would translate Nephilim as Gigantes if it means "fallen ones". You can't.

All of those tribes are post flood Nephilim tribes. Adam Clarke wrote in the late 1700's to early 1800's. This is by no means modern scholarship.

Look at your Ancient Hebrew Dictionary. See that fishhook and the rams heads by the Hebrew form? Those are the proto-Canaanite forms for EL. Yes Hebrew grammar nominally allows for Elohim to be read as "powers" not that it does use it as "powers". Genesis 6 uses the definite article Ha Elohim. Even if you translate it "powers" it doesn't mean living men, as it is clearly used in Genesis 1 for God. That this book does not even mention "god" or divine being like the rest of the world should tell you Jeff Benners is either not up on modern scholarship or deliberately leaving that part out.

You claim your hermenutics follow this rule...
"This is not a salvation issue. However, it is one about accuracy, and whenever there is a biblical disagreement, I will always prefer to side with --what does a particular believe say about the character of God?"

...This is just a description of bias not exegesis. We learn about the Character of God through the Bible. It is circular to use our perceptions of God to modulate what we think the ancient authors believed God was like. That leads to nothing but heresy. If you want to know about God just read the Bible. Don't try and "fix" it the way you think it should be. Let the authors speak what they mean without your influence.

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Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Php_2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn_3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Sons of God can be human, or angels--depends on the context.

I never mentioned Ken, nor dolls. I said. appearing as men does not make them one. We were crested lower than the angels. They are of a higher order of beings.

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

How do we mate with beings who are created of a higher order than us? They are not our kind. Do we have wings? Can we travel at the speed of sound or light? Can we stand in the presence of God as Lucifer did and as Gabriel does as a covering cherub?---They not us, they do not have the same purpose, nowhere does it say they were created in the image of God, nowhere does it state they were told to be fruitful and multiply.

What happened to those fallen angels and Satan? Are they still around? Why are there no giants with angels wings running around today? Why did they stop mating with humans? You say they were still occurring after the food--where are they? Where is one single individual with non human DNA? And why have you not answered one single question dealing with the other basic human issues and questions of this? Such as how did those women handle having sex with creatures that were so tall, how did they handle giving birth to something that their pelvises could not handle? How tall was Adam and Eve and why do you think they were not created giants to begin with and genetics has played a part in this? There were giants in those day--yes, there were--Adam and Eve were--or show any verse that states he was 5'9" and she was 5"5'--
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

If other Jewish scholars can interpret this to say these were men of God with women who were not followers of God---0why is there such a big refusal to see it---0after all, it still happens today--men of high standing, big name evangelists, who fall to women other than their wives, and men of God who choose to marry not the woman of God, but the sexy little nymphet who is not Christian. Nothing knew.

Sanoy said:

Tell me why the translators of the LLX would translate Nephilim as Gigantes if it means "fallen ones". You can't.

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The Hebrew language is complex--words can be spelled exactly the same but pronounced totally different. And Hebrew and Aramaic can be confused as they use the same alphabet. Example



Notice that Jastrow actually gives us the form of the plural in Aramaic: nephilin (ending in "n" not "m" as Aramaic plurals do). It is most likely that nephilim is an Aramaic term imported into Hebrew during the final editing of the Hebrew Bible in Babylon (where Aramaic was the lingua franca) and then the ending was corrected to Hebrew rules of word formation. Both phenomena are known in the Hebrew Bible. The notes on this below are from the scholarly 2 volume work, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew, by P. Jouon and T. Muraoka (Paragraph 90, sections c and d-a):







Those tiny little marks in the words will indicate pronunciation. Pronunciation is not always translated, just the spelling.

Sanoy said:

All of those tribes are post flood Nephilim tribes. Adam Clarke wrote in the late 1700's to early 1800's. This is by no means modern scholarship.

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LOL! Now you are saying this not modern scholarship, yet you were just accusing me of having modern heresy! I never said this is modern interpretation--you did.

Sanoy said:

Look at your Ancient Hebrew Dictionary. See that fishhook and the rams heads by the Hebrew form? Those are the proto-Canaanite forms for EL. Yes Hebrew grammar nominally allows for Elohim to be read as "powers" not that it does use it as "powers". Genesis 6 uses the definite article Ha Elohim. Even if you translate it "powers" it doesn't mean living men, as it is clearly used in Genesis 1 for God. That this book does not even mention "god" or divine being like the rest of the world should tell you Jeff Benners is either not up on modern scholarship or deliberately leaving that part out.

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Sanoy said:

This is just a description of bias not exegesis. We learn about the Character of God through the Bible. It is circular to use our perceptions of God to modulate what we think the ancient authors believed God was like. That leads to nothing but heresy. If you want to know about God just read the Bible. Don't try and "fix" it the way you think it should be. Let the authors speak what they mean without your influence.

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OK--here we go--but I doubt it will be read.

The following is an excerpt from the book Ancient Hebrew Dictionary.
When we see a name, such as "King David" we see the word "King" as a title and "David" as a name. In our western mind a title describes a character trait while a name is simply an identifier. In the Hebrew language there is no such distinction between names and titles. Both words, King and David, are descriptions of character traits. The Hebrew word melekh (king) is "one who reigns," while daviyd (David) is "one who is loved". Both of these words are titles, describing the character of David. It is also common to identify the word "Elohiym" (Elohiym) as a title and YHWH (Yahweh) as a name. What we do not realize is that both of these are character traits. YHWH is both a word and title meaning "one who exists" and Elohiym is a word and a title meaning "one who has power and authority". The Hebrew word "shem" more literally means "character". When the Bible speaks of taking Elohiym's name to the nations, he is not speaking about the name itself but his character. When we are commanded to not take Elohiym's name in vain, this literally means not to represent his character in a false manner. This is similar to our expression, "have a good name," which is not about the name itself but the character of the one with that name.
____________________________________________________________________
God

n order to understand the full Hebraic meaning of the Hebrew word אלהים (elohiym), we will need to look at the roots that it is derived from. The parent root אל (el) is a "strong leader." Derived from this parent root is the child root אלה (alah), meaning an "oath," or more Hebraically, a binding yoke that binds the "strong leader" to another in an agreement. The word אלה (alah) is found in the following verse.

and they said, we surely see that YHWH existed with you and we said, please, an oath will exist between us and you and we will cut a covenant with you, (Genesis 26:28, RMT)

The word אלוה (eloah) is derived out of the child root אלה (alah) and refers to the "strong leader" that one is "bound" with.

"Behold, happy is the man whom God reproves; therefore despise not the chastening of the Almighty. (Job 5:17, RSV)

The plural form of אלוה (eloah) is אלהים (elohiym) and means the "strong leaders that the people are bound too" and can be found in the following passages.

"You shall have no other gods before me". (Exodus 20:3, RSV)

"Then his master shall bring him unto the judges". (Exodus 21:6, KJV)

This plural word is also used for the Creator of the heavens and the earth and is the most common word translated as "God" in the Bible.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". (Genesis 1:1, NIV)

The God who created the heavens and the earth is not just a god, but the all-powerful God, mightier than any other god.

"For the LORD your God (אלהים), he is God (אלהים) of the gods (אלהים), and Lord of lords, a great God (אל)" (Deuteronomy 10:17, RSV)
Commentary of the Torah



I have tried to answer your questions--you have not answered mine.

mmksparbud said:

Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom_8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Php_2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn_3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

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The sons of God formed the council in Psalm 82. We, through Christ, can now become Sons of God. We will no longer be born of flesh and blood but of spirit and water. These are not contradictions to anything. There are 0 accounts of human "sons of God" anywhere in the OT.
You admit that Job 38:7 refers to angels. Great. Look at Romans 8:19 it says creation "waits" with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. And 1John 3:2 says we await the transformation into the form of sons of God. Because Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This is the first and only time in history where men can become sons of God, through Christ, and that transformation is complete upon the resurrection. So there are no Pre Messiah Sons of God that are men.

How do we mate with beings that are higher than us? Angels are spirits and yet they appear as men. They have wings and yet they appear as men without wings. Paul even says we entertain them unknowingly. They appear as men and even eat our food. It is silly to say that a spirit can manifest as a man, even manifest a stomach...but not genitals. There is absolutely nothing to substantiate that in scripture. 0 writers of scripture believe that.

We do find Giants all over the world but they don't have angel DNA because the angels became human. Goliath was only 4 inches taller than me and we find that size all over the place. Look up why Ligers are so much larger than their counterparts. They did however receive a corrupted soul. This is why Jesus had to cast out unclean spirits. The Greek word for unclean means a mixture.

It says there were giants in THOSE days, IE when man began to multiply. That precludes those days before man began to multiply so it's not calling Adam a giant. The Bible does not say how the giants were born after the flood. However I can tell you historically the tower of Babel's top chamber had a priestess waiting on a bench for Marduk to descend and mate with her. (Herodotus) I continue to press this challenge give me 1 source that says the Sons of God were men from Jesus's time or before. I don't care about person X's anachronistic reimagining of scripture. I care about what those who wrote it and who lived closest too it thought. You cannot provide a contemporary source for the sethite theory because non exist. It is a post scriptural heresy.

The Aramaic word naphila means GIANTS. That is why it was translated Gigantes in Greek. Any Hebrew writer at that time would know Aramaic like a first language. Aramaic was the common spoken language of the Jews, it's what Jesus spoke in as well. So the suggestion that the scribes were confused by the primary language of the time is absurd. They translated it as Gigantes because thats what naphila means in Aramaic. Additionally the writers of the LLX would have first hand contact with the temple teachings on the LLX source, especially given the fact that they are tasked with translating it. So the most plausible explanation is that the word means giant, not fallen ones.

Quoting scholarship from the late 1700's is incredibly naive as it comes before a massive amount of textual discoveries in the 1900's on this subject.

The Ancient Hebrew Dictionary you are using is deliberately obfuscating some things. Yes, every Hebrew name has an internal meaning. But the meaning is secondary in the Grammar. When we read "David walked down the stairs" we read it as a person, the secondary nature has no relevance here. Gods Name was a thing, a property, not a mental concept. (exodus 23:21) The central part of Elohim is "EL", the proto canaanite even uses the same forms as "EL". Jeff Benners is just giving you the definitions of the secondary natures of the word, while ignoring the primary nature. EL did not primarily mean strong leader but the most high God in the region sharing the same concepts of the Israelites. Look it up because Jeff Benners isn't telling this side of the story. Put that book away and read some actually sourced and peer reviewed literature on it. For starters look here Elohim. There is something seriously wrong with that book as he quotes strongs 430 for Elohim which defines it as God but Jeff defines it as Powers.

Sanoy said:

The sons of God formed the council in Psalm 82.

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Psalm 82
Here is the context. What was the jewish word for gods there?
1 -- A Psalm of Asaph. God hath stood in the company of God, In the midst God doth judge.
2 Till when do ye judge perversely? And the face of the wicked lift up? Selah.
3 Judge ye the weak and fatherless, The afflicted and the poor declare righteous.
4 Let the weak and needy escape, From the hand of the wicked deliver them.
5 They knew not, nor do they understand, In darkness they walk habitually, Moved are all the foundations of earth.
6 I -- I have said, 'Gods ye are, And sons of the Most High -- all of you,
7 But as man ye die, and as one of the heads ye fall,
8 Rise, O God, judge the earth, For Thou hast inheritance among all the nations!


A core belief of Judaism is that there is only one God.The Hebrew is:
אֲנִי-אָמַרְתִּי, אֱלֹהִים אַתֶּם; וּבְנֵי עֶלְיוֹן כֻּלְּכֶם.‏
The word אֱלֹהִים can mean "God". It can also mean Judge, Idolatrous god/power (note the distinction between God and gods), Important Person.
In this context, others translate it as "godlike beings", "angels", "angelic creatures". But definitely not "Gods".
the translation אֱלֹהִים as 'Power' or 'Powerful Ones.' That covers the different possible meanings of G-d, false gods, powerful people or angels. Those who are either powerful or are falsely thought to be powerful in this world.
Psalm 82 poetically plays on the different meanings of אֱלֹהִים to exhort judges to judge properly and support the weak and poor rather than favoring the rich and powerful.
non-literal translation.

G-d 'stands' in the midst of judges and will judge them.
How long will you (bad) judges favor the wicked? Give justice to the weak, the orphan and the poor. Rescue the needy and powerless from the hands of the wicked.
They (corrupt judges) do not know nor do they understand that they walk in darkness.
I thought all judges were G-dly and powerful sons of the most High (i.e. good and righteous) But like all men, even powerful princes you will die.
Please G-d judge the world, you control all the nations.

Sanoy said:

We, through Christ, can now become Sons of God. We will no longer be born of flesh and blood but of spirit and water. These are not contradictions to anything. There are 0 accounts of human "sons of God" anywhere in the OT.
You admit that Job 38:7 refers to angels. Great. Look at Romans 8:19 it says creation "waits" with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. And 1John 3:2 says we await the transformation into the form of sons of God. Because Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This is the first and only time in history where men can become sons of God, through Christ, and that transformation is complete upon the resurrection. So there are no Pre Messiah Sons of God that are men.

How do we mate with beings that are higher than us? Angels are spirits and yet they appear as men. They have wings and yet they appear as men without wings. Paul even says we entertain them unknowingly. They appear as men and even eat our food. It is silly to say that a spirit can manifest as a man, even manifest a stomach...but not genitals. There is absolutely nothing to substantiate that in scripture. 0 writers of scripture believe that.

We do find Giants all over the world but they don't have angel DNA because the angels became human. Goliath was only 4 inches taller than me and we find that size all over the place. Look up why Ligers are so much larger than their counterparts. They did however receive a corrupted soul. This is why Jesus had to cast out unclean spirits. The Greek word for unclean means a mixture.

It says there were giants in THOSE days, IE when man began to multiply. That precludes those days before man began to multiply so it's not calling Adam a giant. The Bible does not say how the giants were born after the flood. However I can tell you historically the tower of Babel's top chamber had a priestess waiting on a bench for Marduk to descend and mate with her. (Herodotus) I continue to press this challenge give me 1 source that says the Sons of God were men from Jesus's time or before. I don't care about person X's anachronistic reimagining of scripture. I care about what those who wrote it and who lived closest too it thought. You cannot provide a contemporary source for the sethite theory because non exist. It is a post scriptural heresy.

The Aramaic word naphila means GIANTS. That is why it was translated Gigantes in Greek. Any Hebrew writer at that time would know Aramaic like a first language. Aramaic was the common spoken language of the Jews, it's what Jesus spoke in as well. So the suggestion that the scribes were confused by the primary language of the time is absurd. They translated it as Gigantes because thats what naphila means in Aramaic. Additionally the writers of the LLX would have first hand contact with the temple teachings on the LLX source, especially given the fact that they are tasked with translating it. So the most plausible explanation is that the word means giant, not fallen ones.

Quoting scholarship from the late 1700's is incredibly naive as it comes before a massive amount of textual discoveries in the 1900's on this subject.

The Ancient Hebrew Dictionary you are using is deliberately obfuscating some things. Yes, every Hebrew name has an internal meaning. But the meaning is secondary in the Grammar. When we read "David walked down the stairs" we read it as a person, the secondary nature has no relevance here. Gods Name was a thing, a property, not a mental concept. (exodus 23:21) The central part of Elohim is "EL", the proto canaanite even uses the same forms as "EL". Jeff Benners is just giving you the definitions of the secondary natures of the word, while ignoring the primary nature. EL did not primarily mean strong leader but the most high God in the region sharing the same concepts of the Israelites. Look it up because Jeff Benners isn't telling this side of the story. Put that book away and read some actually sourced and peer reviewed literature on it. For starters look here Elohim. There is something seriously wrong with that book as he quotes strongs 430 for Elohim which defines it as God but Jeff defines it as Powers.

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Psa 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
Psa_103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
Pro_3:12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
Isa_63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Isa_64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jer_31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

All of ancient Israel considered themselves as sons of God.

I've got over 2 dozen buns I am working one--got to go. Will deal with the rest later.

mmksparbud said:

A core belief of Judaism is that there is only one God.

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You are confusing English with Hebrew anachronistically. The English word God does not correlate with the Hebrew word Elohim. They are not a God in the English sense but spirit. The deceased Samuel is an Elohim. Angels are Elohim, Yahweh is an Elohim. But at no point is a living human being called an Elohim in the OT. That is a complete fabrication. We can use the English word God to communicate but you can't draw objections from that because they will be based on anachronism. Your rewrite of psalm 82 is also a fabrication that is not in the text. The context is the divine council which is a reoccurring theme in the Bible. Look this term up as it is part of modern scholarship. God says they will die like men because they are not men. These are the angelic rulers of the nations, the sons of God described in Deuteronomy 32:8. God's allotment is Israel also in chapter 32 which is also why He is called Father.

You have to write your own words into the text to acquire your belief. I can read it plainly and the plain reading accords with modern scholarship that has largely developed from the textual discoveries of the last century. The only way to hold on to your belief is by ignoring modern scholarship and by editing scripture by inserting your own words.

The OT never uses the term "Sons of God" to describe an Israelite. The Israelites called God father, but never are they called "Sons of God" that is a specific designation not a sentence fragment.

And Psalm 82 is another verse that Mormons use to try to prove that we are gods. They believe that God was human before becoming God, and we can, eventually also.

Sanoy said:

How do we mate with beings that are higher than us? Angels are spirits and yet they appear as men. They have wings and yet they appear as men without wings. Paul even says we entertain them unknowingly. They appear as men and even eat our food. It is silly to say that a spirit can manifest as a man, even manifest a stomach...but not genitals. There is absolutely nothing to substantiate that in scripture. 0 writers of scripture believe that.

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Sanoy said:

We do find Giants all over the world but they don't have angel DNA because the angels became human. Goliath was only 4 inches taller than me and we find that size all over the place. Look up why Ligers are so much larger than their counterparts. They did however receive a corrupted soul. This is why Jesus had to cast out unclean spirits. The Greek word for unclean means a mixture.

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Again--appear is not the same as being men. Can you walk through walls? Can you travel at the speed of light or sound? Can you stand in the presence of God? Angels can. God does not give to any creature what they do not use nor need. At creation the word used was "functional." Yes they eat--why not? Heaven is loaded with all sorts of good stuff. The tree of life is there--nothing states they do not partake of it. Sex is a whole other matter. God never gave them mates as He did us. So you are of the opinion that these angels are up there, wanting to mate, and can't--no wonder they fell. You really think God would do that to them?

Yes--ligers are huge--much bigger than their parents. And all the males are sterile. And they are still both cats. Horses and donkeys mate and produce offspring--mules can not produce offspring. (except for only 2 in the entire world that were proven by DNA to have given birth) --and they are still both in the equine family. Even apes can not produce offspring with monkeys. God said after their kind.
And angels can not become anything. They imitate. They posses. They did not become pigs when Jesus sent them into those pigs. When devils are caste out--they are caste out of bodies, they do not become the bodies, they posses them. Angels can not create, God alone is the creator. They can not recreate themselves, they can only transform by imitation or possessing. They can not become human--that is why they posses.

Sanoy said:

The Aramaic word naphila means GIANTS. That is why it was translated Gigantes in Greek. Any Hebrew writer at that time would know Aramaic like a first language. Aramaic was the common spoken language of the Jews, it's what Jesus spoke in as well. So the suggestion that the scribes were confused by the primary language of the time is absurd. They translated it as Gigantes because thats what naphila means in Aramaic. Additionally the writers of the LLX would have first hand contact with the temple teachings on the LLX source, especially given the fact that they are tasked with translating it. So the most plausible explanation is that the word means giant, not fallen ones.

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The comparison was not between ancient Jews---but modern man and ancient language. Actually. Gen 6:4 is self explanatory.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Transliteration
the Nephilim existed in the land in those days and also afterward, when the sons of the Elohiym came to the daughters of the human, and they brought forth for them, they are the courageous ones which are from a distant time, men of the title,

Courageous ones, mighty men, men of renown, men of title-----strange way to write about evil, demon children of fallen angels.

Remember that there were no verses, no chapters and virtually no punctuation in the original----Gen 6:4 Can be read as

There were giants in those days and also after that.
When the sons of God came unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Totally depends on where you put the comas and periods.

So, there were giants in those days and also later.
The word of God is inspired as it was written--punctuation is a whole different thing. Have you ever read the bible without the chapters, verses and punctuation marks?---Puts a whole different perspective on things.

I do not read things that merely parrot my own believes---I look for what other scholars have to say that are different then my own ideas and then I have a basis from which to pray about and make up my own mind. Maybe you're the one that needs to put your familiar books down and do a little more research.
Bottom line---in over 35 years of this, I have been shown nothing new and that changes my mind on the subject. Anything new, has only made me more inclined to read this as I've pointed out, I am sure you feel the same way about you own train of thought on the subject.

Sanoy said:

Your rewrite of psalm 82 is also a fabrication that is not in the text.

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That is not my rewrite--it's from a Jewish site that I got many years ago. As I said-you are set in your way--and I in mine. I think we've stated our sides now.

And that is why there are over 10,000 denominations, because many prefer their own interpretations. What a mess...

mmksparbud said:

And Psalm 82 is another verse that Mormons use to try to prove that we are gods. They believe that God was human before becoming God, and we can, eventually also.

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So what?

mmksparbud said:

God does not give to any creature what they do not use nor need

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Can you provide a biblical source for that? Or that they cannot take the form of men? Or that angels posses people? ( No the pigs is not a source) God didn't give them stomachs, they are spirits, he gave them the ability to appear as men, even so far as a biological stomach.

Again Nephilim would not have angel DNA. The nephilim were biologically men, it is their spirits that were not so Genesis 6:4 is not controversial. They were later worshiped as gods Deuteronomy 32:17.

I don't need to read about the Sethite theory because I used to believe it. I use to use the same arguments as you and I mangled the same scriptures as you. There is nothing new to learn from the Sethite theory. It doesn't change because there is nothing to be discovered. I study the ANE journals because they actually advance based on new discovery. There is no historical room for the Sethite theory amidst modern ANE scholarship. It is a theory for Ostriches and a heresy to boot.

You refuse to change your mind for 30 years because your hermeneutics include bias. That is neither an accomplishment nor a sign of strength for the Sethite theory.

Ok well your Jewish site is a rewrite of scripture then. Rabbinc Judaism gets to do whatever they want with the text. That is why it is such a mess right now. Rabbi interpretations are a dime a dozen and just as cheap.

Sanoy said:

So what?


Can you provide a biblical source for that? Or that they cannot take the form of men? Or that angels posses people? ( No the pigs is not a source) God didn't give them stomachs, they are spirits, he gave them the ability to appear as men, even so far as a biological stomach.

Again Nephilim would not have angel DNA. The nephilim were biologically men, it is their spirits that were not so Genesis 6:4 is not controversial. They were later worshiped as gods Deuteronomy 32:17.

I don't need to read about the Sethite theory because I used to believe it. There is nothing new to learn from the Sethite theory. It doesn't change because there is nothing to be discovered. I study the ANE journals because they actually advance based on new discovery. There is no historical room for the Sethite theory amidst modern ANE scholarship.

You refuse to change your mind for 30 years because your hermeneutics include bias. That is neither an accomplishment nor a sign of strength for the Sethite theory.

Ok well your Jewish site is a rewrite of scripture. Rabbinc Judaism gets to do whatever they want with the text. Doesn't make it correct.

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Have no idea what Sethite theory you're talking about---I never mentioned it.
If the bible is not a source---what is?

Again--can you walk through walls? Can you travel at the speed of light and sound? Can you stand in the prescience of God? Do you have wings? How long do you live?--Gabriel is mentioned in the OT. You have no idea what the inside of any angels is like--it is obvious they can eat--so what?? So does God--all 3 of those ate and one of them was God.
Gen 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
Are you of the same level as God because He can appear as a man and eats? Is He a biological man in your view?
Where does it state that the Nephilim were spirits that are biologically men? Where is spirits mentioned in all of this?

Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

What does this have to do with Nephilim---they are not mentioned---devils are--and Satan is worshipped today-does that make him a biological man in your opinion also?

"Rabbinc Judaism gets to do whatever they want with the text. Doesn't make it correct." Some Rabbinic Jews state the same thing you do---does that make them right??

You state a lot of things--but give no sources.

Much of what we are reading in this thread about the Nephilim originated with teaching from Finis Dake and the edition of the KJV Bible published with his notes. Dake's claim is that the Nephilim are giant beings who are carry-overs from the pre-Adamic (pre-Adamite) age in the sense that they are fathered by the same fallen angels who existed prior to this Adamite age.

Lucifer and his fallen angels had unchallenged rule over the first Earth. These fallen angels still have a presence on this second Earth during the Adamite age. These angels were somehow able to transform themselves to be able to have sexual relations with human women, or the daughters of the godly. Satan's intent was to intrude upon the Adamite race and leave no woman capable of bearing the promised child. The children resulting from these relationships with fallen angels and Adamite women created a race of giants. Dake said the purpose of the great flood was to destroy these ungodly giants. However, these fallen angels have a way of showing again, post-flood and they start the process over again. God's people are told to pursue these giants and destroy all of them from the face of this present Earth.

mmksparbud said:

Have no idea whatSethite theory you're talking about---I never mentioned it.
If the bible is not a source---what is?

Again--can you walk through walls? Can you travel at the speed of light and sound? Can you stand in the prescience of God? Do you have wings? How long do you live?--Gabriel is mentioned in the OT. You have no idea what the inside of any angels is like--it is obvious they can eat--so what?? So does God--all 3 of those ate and one of them was God.
Gen 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
Are you of the same level as God because He can appear as a man and eats? Is He a biological man in your view?
Where does it state that the Nephilim were spirits that are biologically men? Where is spirits mentioned in all of this?

Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

What does this have to do with Nephilim---they are not mentioned---devils are--and Satan is worshipped today-does that make him a biological man in your opinion also?

"Rabbinc Judaism gets to do whatever they want with the text. Doesn't make it correct." Some Rabbinic Jews state the same thing you do---does that make them right??

You state a lot of things--but give no sources.

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At it's core the sethite theory states that the sons of God are men. There are different variations but that is a core tenet.

Angels are spirits. They have no biological stomach as spirits. Food is made out of physical matter and is processed as physical matter. Do angels poop when they eat an apple as a spirit? Where does the apple go? It's a silly question because it makes as much sense as a square triangle. Angels were always taken to have appeared as men when they did things like eat. Note Appear has no ontological reference. God does not eat a sacrifice, he consumes it in fire. Many of the sacrifices are actually eaten by the priests. At any rate Genesis 18 is not God the father. No man can see Him face to face.

I did not say the nephilim are spirits, I said they were men and that their spirits were different. When they die they become "unclean spirits" the greek word meaning "mixture" aka nephilim.

I am not doing whatever I want with the text. I am reading it word for word definition for definition guided by historical context to avoid anachronism. That is something you cannot do as there is no historical context for your belief. Nor can you read it plainly as you first have to conclude the sons of God were men, to read it as men. As I said there are no OT occurrences where Sons of God are men. It has to be read into the OT not read out of it.

Sanoy said:

The sethite theory states that the sons of God are men. There are different variations but that is a core tenent.

Angels are spirits. They have no biological stomach as spirits. Food is made out of physical matter and is processed as physical matter. Do angels poop when they eat an apple as a spirit? Where does the apple go? It's a silly question because it makes as much sense as a square triangle. Angels were always taken to have appeared as men when they did things like eat. Note Appear has no ontological reference. God does not eat a sacrifice, he consumes it in fire. Many of the sacrifices are actually eaten by the priests. At any rate Genesis 18 is not God the father. No man can see Him face to face.

I did not say the nephilim are spirits, I said they were men and that their spirits were different. When they die they become "unclean spirits" the greek word meaning "mixture" aka nephilim.

I am not doing whatever I want with the text. I am reading it word for word definition for definition guided by historical context to avoid anachronism. That is something you cannot do as there is no historical context for your belief. Nor can you read it plainly as you first have to conclude the sons of God were men, to read it as men. As I said there are no OT occurrences where Sons of God are men. It has to be read into the OT not read out of it.

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Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Could you possibly state your sources? You say a whole lot of things without ever quoting any sources. These are your opinions then? And you answer questions very selectively. Where does it say that angels are spirits who become human with human stomachs??

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


Gen 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
Gen 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Who is the Lord here?--Even if it is Jesus, and it is one or the other---it is before His incarnation--are you saying He was human before the incarnation because He ate?
Nothing states that Abraham saw the face of the Lord.

Sanoy said:

I did not say the nephilim are spirits, I said they were men and that their spirits were different. When they die they become "unclean spirits" the greek word meaning "mixture" aka nephilim.

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Nephilim are men with different sprits?? But their spirits do not become unclean until they die??----
So, they have clean but different spirits??----Source???? For you then, the Nephilim are men, who claim a fallen angel as their father--Is that right? These were spirits, unfallen angels first. They fell.
As angels, they do not marry and have no sexual relations for there are only other male angels. Now that they have fallen, they can become human by their own creative powers and eat using human stomachs and have human genitalia that produce human sperm that can recognize and unite with the human eggs of human females --and the DNA and chromosomes of both are completely compatible for that to happen and the result is a Nephilim--a giant. And they are giants because their fathers (the fallen angels)were giants also and that is why

Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Do I have your sequence correct now?? (Different people have had different sequences over the years).
And you have biblical and scientific, medical support for each stage, I assume?--Then please do not forget to state that support.

mmksparbud said:

Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

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I love that prophecy.


Could you possibly state your sources? Sources for what? Everything I have said is in the Bible or logical sense. If I haven't answered a question it is either because I missed it or I figured you would understand the rest from what I said. Hebrews 1:14, angels are spirits. Angels ate physical food with Abraham ergo they had a mouth, esophagus and stomach. That is a point of logic that is far more plausible than not.

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Here is where logic comes in. If spirits do not have flesh and blood, and angels are spirits, and angels have appeared to men as men who ate physical matter, and whom sodomites wanted to mate with then it means they are able to take physical form. Physical form is made up things called matter. It also accords with traditional beliefs about angels.


Gen 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
Gen 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Who is the Lord here?--Even if it is Jesus, and it is one or the other---it is before His incarnation--are you saying He was human before the incarnation because He ate?
______
Yes, that is Jesus. Jesus is all over the OT, by many names, including Yahweh. You can even see Him in the next chapter over. Look up Genesis 19:24 and read closely. He is also in Judges 6, and the calling of Samuel under what is known as the Memra.

No the Nephilim already have unclean spirits by definition strongs 169. The source for this comes from second temple literature, the book of Enoch. You don't have to believe it is biblical but that is where unclean spirits come from in the minds of a second temple Jew. Eusebius also talks about this and several church fathers hold to the book of Enochs teachings. You are asking me to source common knowledge, the Shedim were the spirits of the Nephilim to a second temple Jew. The sins of the watchers predominated second temple literature as the primary cause of the corruption in the world. I'll give you a source for that last comment so you can really get a perspective of just how utterly and naively mistaken you are.

"But what I want you get here is here you have four passages in the
entirety of Second Temple Jewish literature that link the reason for the great wickedness throughout the earth, link it to Adam. Everything else, and it is mountains of material. There are whole books, whole dissertations written on this that collect all the information, all the passages. Everything else says nope. The reason why humanity is in the pickle it’s in, the reason why the earth is so wicked and corrupt is because of what the Watchers did. They corrupted humans" (Dr Michael Heiser Naked Bible Podcast 94. 'The sin of the watchers and Galatians 3-4)

Angels are spirits and when these angels committed themselves to this act they came into the women as men. Any angel can appear as a man. It does not say why they are giant, perhaps the angel appeared as a six foot man, or perhaps it is a condition like we find in the Liger, we just know that the result was that they were taller than the average human.


And you have biblical and scientific, medical support for each stage, I assume?--Then please do not forget to state that support.

What a ridiculous comment. Do you have scientific medical support for each stage of the resurrection? I see I have now come to the limits of your intellectual honesty.

The nephilim giants were real large creatures.
Their physical remains turned into mud fossils after the flood and are still around today, we can see their remains outlined into the rocks.
Their spirit became the demons, neither angel nor human they await the judgement day yet are free to roam about, while their fathers, the fallen angels who sinned that sin, God locked up in dungeons.
Age of disclosure has some good videos

Sanoy said:

I love that prophecy.


Could you possibly state your sources? Sources for what? Everything I have said is in the Bible or logical sense. If I haven't answered a question it is either because I missed it or I figured you would understand the rest from what I said. Hebrews 1:14, angels are spirits. Angels ate physical food with Abraham ergo they had a mouth, esophagus and stomach. That is a point of logic that is far more plausible than not.

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Here is where logic comes in. If spirits do not have flesh and blood, and angels are spirits, and angels have appeared to men as men who ate physical matter, and whom sodomites wanted to mate with then it means they are able to take physical form. Physical form is made up things called matter. It also accords with traditional beliefs about angels.


Gen 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
Gen 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Who is the Lord here?--Even if it is Jesus, and it is one or the other---it is before His incarnation--are you saying He was human before the incarnation because He ate?
______
Yes, that is Jesus. Jesus is all over the OT, by many names, including Yahweh. You can even see Him in the next chapter over. Look up Genesis 19:24 and read closely. He is also in Judges 6, and the calling of Samuel under what is known as the Memra.

No the Nephilim already have unclean spirits by definition strongs 169. The source for this comes from second temple literature, the book of Enoch. You don't have to believe it is biblical but that is where unclean spirits come from in the minds of a second temple Jew. Eusebius also talks about this and several church fathers hold to the book of Enochs teachings. You are asking me to source common knowledge, the Shedim were the spirits of the Nephilim to a second temple Jew. The sins of the watchers predominated second temple literature as the primary cause of the corruption in the world. I'll give you a source for that last comment so you can really get a perspective of just how utterly and naively mistaken you are.

"But what I want you get here is here you have four passages in the
entirety of Second Temple Jewish literature that link the reason for the great wickedness throughout the earth, link it to Adam. Everything else, and it is mountains of material. There are whole books, whole dissertations written on this that collect all the information, all the passages. Everything else says nope. The reason why humanity is in the pickle it’s in, the reason why the earth is so wicked and corrupt is because of what the Watchers did. They corrupted humans" (Dr Michael Heiser Naked Bible Podcast 94. 'The sin of the watchers and Galatians 3-4)

Angels are spirits and when these angels committed themselves to this act they came into the women as men. Any angel can appear as a man. It does not say why they are giant, perhaps the angel appeared as a six foot man, or perhaps it is a condition like we find in the Liger, we just know that the result was that they were taller than the average human.


And you have biblical and scientific, medical support for each stage, I assume?--Then please do not forget to state that support.

What a ridiculous comment. Do you have scientific medical support for each stage of the resurrection? I see I have now come to the limits of your intellectual honesty.

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That's what I thought. The book of Enoch is where most of these things come from. They make neither biblical, scientific, nor medical sense. The DNA/chromosomal packaging of angels is not the same as ours and the 2 could not join anymore than an ape and a monkey's can, for they are created higher than us according to the bible and angels do not have the creative powers to create--God alone does. They can appear to be just about anything, but can not actually become anything else. Satan will transform himself into an angel of light at the end times--which is still an angel. If you wish to believe in these things--be my guest, it makes no difference in my life. I prefer accurate, biblical truth--there is biblical prove of a resurrection. Your biblical support of Nephilim is based on false interpretation of a few words that end up making God look like He didn't know what He was doing by creating beings with parts they have no need of and can not use and give to Satan and fallen angels powers they have never been given. The earth was destroyed because of our own evil and violence according to the bible, not the evil of God's fallen angels.
And BTW--ligers are male lions with female tigers, and are usually both sterile--occasionally if a fertile female liger mates with a lion, she will give birth to one cub (there have been only about 6 of those)--but 2 ligers can not produce offshoring. Ti-ligers are male tigers with fertile female ligers. Tigons are
female lion, male tiger--there are many combination amongst the cat family--but they are the cat family and most hybrids suffer from no end of health issue and usually sterile. There are many other hybrids--usually with the same problems, but they are always within the same kind--zonkeys, zorse, camas by human intervention---as in the days of Noah--however, so far, no pig/horses yet, but give scientists enough time and who knows.
Now--I will say this--The pre-flood people where highly intelligent-they had to be for Adam and Eve were created with perfect brains and I would say were total savants (with no idiot part)---they had hundred of years to perfect their abilities and who knows what they were capable of. Today the so called idiot/savants can memorize whole phone books, play music without ever having had a lesson, paint, so on--incredible things. How much more so those people--the scientists of that time were probably more advanced than us--and I would not doubt if they were doing genetic experiments also. We are as in the days of Noah. DNA is such that any hybrid can be detected. The DNA of a liger will show they are a hybrid of lion and tiger. DNA can detect is you are Asian, European, Hispanic--even where is Africa you came from. If you got the DNA of an angel and the DNA of a human, you would be able to tell which was which and if you are a hybrid. EVERY single human would have to be a hybrid of angel/human DNA for the mixed DNA to be considered normal for us. If you are saying that God would have ever let that happen, you have a wrong impression of God. Fallen angels where not given that kind of power for it essentially would have made us , not in the image of God, but in the image of created, fallen angels. Satan may have liked that---God would never, ever have let that even begin to happen. We are His creation-period. And He will not take a back seat to something He created. If you think He would, you serve a very feeble God--I do not. Mine says He is all powerful, all knowing, omnipotent and I take Him at His word.

mmksparbud said:

That's what I thought. The book of Enoch is where most of these things come from. They make neither biblical, scientific, nor medical sense. The DNA/chromosomal packaging of angels is not the same as ours and the 2 could not join anymore than an ape and a monkey's can, for they are created higher than us according to the bible and angels do not have the creative powers to create--God alone does. They can appear to be just about anything, but can not actually become anything else. Satan will transform himself into an angel of light at the end times--which is still an angel. If you wish to believe in these things--be my guest, it makes no difference in my life. I prefer accurate, biblical truth--there is biblical prove of a resurrection. Your biblical support of Nephilim is based on false interpretation of a few words that end up making God look like He didn't know what He was doing by creating beings with parts they have no need of and can not use and give to Satan and fallen angels powers they have never been given. The earth was destroyed because of our own evil and violence according to the bible, not the evil of God's fallen angels.
And BTW--ligers are male lions with female tigers, and are usually both sterile--occasionally if a fertile female liger mates with a lion, she will give birth to one cub (there have been only about 6 of those)--but 2 ligers can not produce offshoring. Ti-ligers are male tigers with fertile female ligers. Tigons are
female lion, male tiger--there are many combination amongst the cat family--but they are the cat family and most hybrids suffer from no end of health issue and usually sterile. There are many other hybrids--usually with the same problems, but they are always within the same kind--zonkeys, zorse, camas by human intervention---as in the days of Noah--however, so far, no pig/horses yet, but give scientists enough time and who knows.
Now--I will say this--The pre-flood people where highly intelligent-they had to be for Adam and Eve were created with perfect brains and I would say were total savants (with no idiot part)---they had hundred of years to perfect their abilities and who knows what they were capable of. Today the so called idiot/savants can memorize whole phone books, play music without ever having had a lesson, paint, so on--incredible things. How much more so those people--the scientists of that time were probably more advanced than us--and I would not doubt if they were doing genetic experiments also. We are as in the days of Noah. DNA is such that any hybrid can be detected. The DNA of a liger will show they are a hybrid of lion and tiger. DNA can detect is you are Asian, European, Hispanic--even where is Africa you came from. If you got the DNA of an angel and the DNA of a human, you would be able to tell which was which and if you are a hybrid. EVERY single human would have to be a hybrid of angel/human DNA for the mixed DNA to be considered normal for us. If you are saying that God would have ever let that happen, you have a wrong impression of God. Fallen angels where not given that kind of power for it essentially would have made us , not in the image of God, but in the image of created, fallen angels. Satan may have liked that---God would never, ever have let that even begin to happen. We are His creation-period. And He will not take a back seat to something He created. If you think He would, you serve a very feeble God--I do not. Mine says He is all powerful, all knowing, omnipotent and I take Him at His word.

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That's what I thought. No scientific or medical proof of the resurrection. It would be absurd to ask for it. Both have biblical evidence. Outside of your hybrid commentary everything you said was pure assertion.

I have said this many times now. There is no angel dna. Please write it down, no angel dna. They came as men to procreate. You say you prefer scripture and you state things that are no where in the bible. For example your statement that they cannot become men. That is just your bias speaking not scripture.

I am not saying they are ligers, I am just giving you an example of how the lack of a size inhibitor can cause large size naturally. I never said they were another species, I just ask you to look it up. When an angel becomes as a man they can have any dna they want that will still mate. Even the lack of a size inhibitor. As to their health effects, I am 4 inches shorter than Goliath and am in fighting shape.

You assert giants are an error in translation and yet you leave my last rebuttal unanswered. You say it was a mistranslation from the Aramaic. But the Aramaic word itself means giant. And Aramaic was the common speaking language of the Jews. So its far more plausible that they translated it correctly rather than incorrectly. You are left with not but assertion to say otherwise. The whole argument that it was a mistake is essentially circular as well. There is no evidence* of a mistake, so it requires the acceptance of the conclusion ( fallen ones) to propose there is a mistake. (* There is no evidence because gigantes would be correct from the Aramaic.) Your hypothesis that it is a mistake is simply the insertion of bias as a hermeneutical practice. If you object then I challenge you to provide a reason that does not beg the question that it is a mistaken translation from the Aramaic.

Nor can you give a single source from Jesus time or before that says the sons of God are men. And you have nothing to say about second temple culture, from which the NT is born out of, other than its wrong.

There is really nothing you can do but assert. I should know because I have been where you stand now. But I chose to trust God for His word rather try to protect it by changing it to what I want it to mean. You should take this seriously because it does matter. Jude quotes the book of Enoch as prophecy. Part of the prophecy in that book says that these things will return in the final generation. Daniel also speaks of it in 2:43 "Because thou hast seen iron mixed with miry clay, they are mixing themselves with the seed of men: and they are not adhering one with another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

Also, respectfully, could you resume using paragraphs. It's very easy to miss a question without them.

Sanoy said:

That's what I thought. No scientific or medical proof of the resurrection. It would be absurd to ask for it. Both have biblical evidence. Outside of your hybrid commentary everything you said was pure assertion.

I have said this many times now. There is no angel dna. Please write it down, no angel dna. They came as men to procreate. You say you prefer scripture and you state things that are no where in the bible. For example your statement that they cannot become men. That is just your bias speaking not scripture.

I am not saying they are ligers, I am just giving you an example of how the lack of a size inhibitor can cause large size naturally. I never said they were another species, I just ask you to look it up. When an angel becomes as a man they can have any dna they want that will still mate. Even the lack of a size inhibitor. As to their health effects, I am 4 inches shorter than Goliath and am in fighting shape.

You assert giants are an error in translation and yet you leave my last rebuttal unanswered. You say it was a mistranslation from the Aramaic. But the Aramaic word itself means giant. And Aramaic was the common speaking language of the Jews. So its far more plausible that they translated it correctly rather than incorrectly. You are left with not but assertion to say otherwise.

Nor can you give a single source from Jesus time or before that says the sons of God are men. And you have nothing to say about second temple culture, from which the NT is born out of, other than its wrong.

There is really nothing you can do but assert. I should know because I have been where you stand now. But I chose to trust God for His word rather try to protect it by changing it to what I want it to mean. You should take this seriously because it does matter. Jude quotes the book of Enoch as prophecy. Part of the prophecy in that book says that these things will return in the final generation. Daniel also speaks of it in 2:43 "Because thou hast seen iron mixed with miry clay, they are mixing themselves with the seed of men: and they are not adhering one with another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

.

Also, respectfully, could you resume using paragraphs. It's very easy to miss a question without them.

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Not one single thing you have said is in scripture. Where in the bible does it say they can change their DNA to anything they want? Where does it say they become men--it says they appear as men---nothing else. The rest is conjecture. Where does the bible say that angels have to have human stomachs to eat food? Jesus ate-before the incarnation--it is Jesus with Abraham and to be human, the Holy Spirit worked with Mary for Him to be so. According to you--angels can become human without the intervention of the Holy Spirit.

I never said giants are an error in translation--the word Nephilim and the reason for there being giants are in error. To this day there is no agreement on what the actual original word Nephilim meant. Look it up. There were giants in those days---- there are giants in these days! I know there were giants. Natural born giants--as were Adam + Eve themselves-- for where does it say they were created the size of modern man? There is enough said that sons of God and the daughters of man are men of authority, probably leading religious figures, who took unbelieving wives and it still happens today---you want to believe otherwise--go for it. It is a matter of which scholars one wants to believe. There are people born today with 6 finger and toes--doesn't make them anything else than the product of genetics.

Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Hos 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

The day of Jezreel came and went a long time ago.

You are 4 inches shorter than Goliath--and??? The tallest man right now is 8'3"--so his mother had sex with a fallen angel?!!! I asked before--if the very tall are a product of fallen angels and women, what are the pygmies in Africa the product of? The same thing--genetics! You don't seem to be to familiar with it.

Daniel--that is the image that Nebbie had---and is quite self explanatory. Babylon was the head of gold, the Med/Persians came next and then Greece and then Rome--after the Romans--the Roman empire fell into tribes--ended up Ten of them (2 were lost)which became the leading countries of 'Europe--England, France, Germany and so on---

​

Then he goes on to talk about the angels​

ud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.​

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Even the angels, God will not overlook. They left their 1st estate-0they were kicked out of heaven for the followed Lucifer and not God.​

ud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.​

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Read that last one over and over---and remember--there was no punctuation in the original--it reads this way with different placement of those marks.​

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ud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.​

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Do you get it?---it all depends on those pesky little punctuation marks--​

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Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them,​

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Even as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them ----(It was not only Sodom and Gonorrah that were destroyed--it was also the cities around them--the whole valley went up in flames--)​

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Jud 1:7 like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, ​

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Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them were all doing the same thing---giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh. ​

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Ju 1:7 are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. ​

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He is not talking about angels having sex with humans!--He was talking about the Israelites were not spared for being unbelievers, neither were the angels for not being faithful, and neither were Sodom and Gomorrah for fornication and going after strange flesh--none were spared and are all an example.​

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Now he goes back to the original ones he had been talking about--​

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Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.​

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He is not going to spare them either.​

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The word of God is consistent---we do not need to change it to suite our theories.​

mmksparbud said:

Not one single thing you have said is in scripture. Where in the bible does it say they can change their DNA to anything they want? Where does it say they become men--it says they appear as men---nothing else. The rest is conjecture. Where does the bible say that angels have to have human stomachs to eat food? Jesus ate-before the incarnation--it is Jesus with Abraham and to be human, the Holy Spirit worked with Mary for Him to be so. According to you--angels can become human without the intervention of the Holy Spirit.

I never said giants are an error in translation--the word Nephilim and the reason for there being giants are in error. To this day there is no agreement on what the actual original word Nephilim meant. Look it up. There were giants in those days---- there are giants in these days! I know there were giants. Natural born giants--as were Adam + Eve themselves-- for where does it say they were created the size of modern man? There is enough said that sons of God and the daughters of man are men of authority, probably leading religious figures, who took unbelieving wives and it still happens today---you want to believe otherwise--go for it. It is a matter of which scholars one wants to believe. There are people born today with 6 finger and toes--doesn't make them anything else than the product of genetics.

Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Hos 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

The day of Jezreel came and went a long time ago.

You are 4 inches shorter than Goliath--and??? The tallest man right now is 8'3"--so his mother had sex with a fallen angel?!!! I asked before--if the very tall are a product of fallen angels and women, what are the pygmies in Africa the product of? The same thing--genetics! You don't seem to be to familiar with it.

Daniel--that is the image that Nebbie had---and is quite self explanatory. Babylon was the head of gold, the Med/Persians came next and then Greece and then Rome--after the Romans--the Roman empire fell into tribes--ended up Ten of them (2 were lost)which became the leading countries of 'Europe--England, France, Germany and so on---

"Because thou hast seen iron mixed with miry clay, they are mixing themselves with the seed of men: and they are not adhering one with another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."
For centuries Europe has tried to become one--none has succeeded. They married each other--at one time, just about every single royal family in Europe was related through marriage--look that up. But still they could not become one, they have not been able to "adhere one to another." Last one that tried was Hitler. The whole statue was dealing with Political kingdoms of this world--not fallen angels mixing with humans!

Jude--you brought it up---It also isn't saying what you want it to. It is-- first off--talking about certain men:
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ

Then he goes back to remind those he was talking to:
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.​

Then he goes on to talk about the angels
ud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Even the angels, God will not overlook. They left their 1st estate-0they were kicked out of heaven for the followed Lucifer and not God.
ud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Read that last one over and over---and remember--there was no punctuation in the original--it reads this way with different placement of those marks.

ud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Do you get it?---it all depends on those pesky little punctuation marks--

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them,

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them ----(It was not only Sodom and Gonorrah that were destroyed--it was also the cities around them--the whole valley went up in flames--)

Jud 1:7 like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh,


Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them were all doing the same thing---giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh.


Ju 1:7 are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
He is not talking about angels having sex with humans!--He was talking about the Israelites were not spared for being unbelievers, neither were the angels for not being faithful, and neither were Sodom and Gomorrah for fornication and going after strange flesh--none were spared and are all an example.

Now he goes back to the original ones he had been talking about--

Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

He is not going to spare them either.

The word of God is consistent---we do not need to change it to suite our theories.​

Click to expand...

As I told you before, what I am saying is either in scripture or logically follows from it.

P1. Angels can become as men
P2. Men have dna.
C. Therefore angels can have the dna of men.

Very simple. Just follow things logically and I won't have to spell out each and every instance for you.

As I have said many times now "appear" does not entail an ontological nature. Remember that, because you might just need that piece of information if you get into apologetics. Yes angels can become as men, it would be impossible for Jewish culture of the second temple period to believe angels procreated with humans if that were logically impossible. That would also make Jude wrong who quotes Enoch, as well as Genesis 6 which literally says they procreated, as well as Paul who uses the same content. The only people who think that is not possible is you, 2,000 years detached from the truth, and unwilling to look for it.

Read the text in Hosea. The day of Jezreel was the end of the kingdom of the house of Israel as well as a future day of Jezreel. The valley of Megiddo is in the valley of Jezreel. The chapter opens with what seems like great destruction for Israel but ends with a complete reversal saying "yet" all these wonderful things will happen. Hosea is full of future prophecy. If you still don't believe me check your commentaries.

The fact that genetic abnormalities exist has no logical bearing on whether Nephilim existed.

I think you should leave your eschatology about Europe out this. That is not something you can substantiate and it's not something that matters to this subject. The seed of man is the human race. "They" is not the human race. The language of Daniel 2:43 is very simple if you just read it plainly. The fact that you have to go all into Europe and Hitler to explain a single verse in Daniel should tell you that you are doing harm to scripture.

I never quoted those verses of Jude, save that they left their first estate, so even though it would be easy to comment, I won't follow you into a red herring. I assume you just presented them as filler? Even so it was very interesting to see you have to add your own explanation to the texts to avoid a plain and simple reading. But I was disappointed to see that you stopped short of covering the authors quoting of the book of Enoch as prophecy. It would have been interesting to watch you wriggle and twist that into what you want it to be. If you do attempt to tackle that just be aware that I have heard the same common and specious responses that you might be inclined to give me from google searching a way out of the book of Enoch.

I see you have failed to meet all three of my challenges. I have failed to meet one of yours however the bar of that challenge was set so high not even the resurrection could pass it. I don't expect you to change your mind in this thread, but I do hope you will privately consider what I have been saying to you. I don't do it for me, but because I believe it is of dire importance to know.

Sanoy said:

As I told you before, what I am saying is either in scripture or logically follows from it.

P1. Angels can become as men
P2. Men have dna.
C. Therefore angels can have the dna of men.

Very simple. Just follow things logically and I won't have to spell out each and every instance for you.

As I have said many times now "appear" does not entail an ontological nature. Remember that, because you might just need that piece of information if you get into apologetics. Yes angels can become as men, it would be impossible for Jewish culture of the second temple period to believe angels procreated with humans if that were logically impossible. That would also make Jude wrong who quotes Enoch, as well as Genesis 6 which literally says they procreated, as well as Paul who uses the same content. The only people who think that is not possible is you, 2,000 years detached from the truth, and unwilling to look for it.

Read the text in Hosea. The day of Jezreel was the end of the kingdom of the house of Israel as well as a future day of Jezreel. The valley of Megiddo is in the valley of Jezreel. The chapter opens with what seems like great destruction for Israel but ends with a complete reversal saying "yet" all these wonderful things will happen. Hosea is full of future prophecy. If you still don't believe me check your commentaries.

The fact that genetic abnormalities exist has no logical bearing on whether Nephilim existed.

I think you should leave your eschatology about Europe out this. That is not something you can substantiate and it's not something that matters to this subject. The seed of man is the human race. "They" is not the human race. The language of Daniel 2:43 is very simple if you just read it plainly. The fact that you have to go all into Europe and Hitler to explain a single verse in Daniel should tell you that you are doing harm to scripture.

I never quoted those verses of Jude, save that they left their first estate, so even though it would be easy to comment, I won't follow you into a red herring. I assume you just presented them as filler? Even so it was very interesting to see you have to add your own explanation to the texts to avoid a plain and simple reading. But I was disappointed to see that you stopped short of covering the authors quoting of the book of Enoch as prophecy. It would have been interesting to watch you wriggle and twist that into what you want it to be. If you do attempt to tackle that just be aware that I have heard the same common and specious responses that you might be inclined to give me from google searching a way out of the book of Enoch.

I see you have failed to meet all three of my challenges. I have failed to meet one of yours however the bar of that challenge was set so high not even the resurrection could pass it. I don't expect you to change your mind in this thread, but I do hope you will privately consider what I have been saying to you. I don't do it for me, but because I believe it is of dire importance to know.

Click to expand...

You "logic" does not follow scripture----that is the point.
It is also very obvious that you have no idea what Daniel and the prophecies are all about,nor have a very good understanding of the very simple rendering of Jude. And it's obvious you do not comprehend how the bible was written originally or I would not have had to explain every single passage that you are getting totally wrong. Not to mention an even slight acquaintance with genetics. If you wish to remain in your darkened condition, I can only pray that the day will come when your eyes will be opened to the truth of God and not the fables of man. I have no problem with the resurrection--so far you have not managed to cloud that one up. And I have read the book of Enoch and you can have it. Those who believe in it have never been able to stay with the plain truth of the bible. And if you can't get a little book like Jude right, I don't expect you can get too far with Enoch either. You have my condolences and will continue to pray for you--0I leave yo0u to your fairytales-0yo0u have given not one single new nor different insight that I have not heard before in over 35 years---Only a few former Enoch believers have finally seen the light and moved on and left that false teaching--I certainly hope one day you will be one of them. Thank you and good bye.