Is a Christian really subject to the OT Law?

Devin P · Feb 12, 2018

bugkiller said:
And Paul says in 6 we have died. Therefore we no longer have any obligation to the law. In 7 Paul says the law died and we can be married to another.

bugkiller

He's not saying that the law died. He was referring to the fact that Israel was the adulterous bride to God, and he was referencing God's law regarding an adulterous bride, and what was to happen with a bride found guilty of adultery.

According to God's law, a bride that is found guilty of adultery was to be put away. She was to be cursed by having to observe the law that bound her by her husband, unable to marry another, and unable to be in covenant with her husband. No one else would marry her either, because they'd be cursed by and share in her sin of adultery. The bride was to be bound and cursed by this law that bound her to her husband, until either the she died, or until the bride's husband died.

Although, as Jesus points out, because of the hardness of their hearts, Moses gave them certificates of divorce, so that women could remarry, but it wasn't intended to be like this. Putting the adulterous bride away, suffering her to be bound to the law that bound her to her husband was how God intended it.

So, when He divorced Israel for their adultery, He put them away, forcing them to be bound to the law that kept them married to Him, but unable to come into covenant with Him, until either they all died out, or God died. This is why Jesus died, to free us from the the law of the adulterous bride, and granting us the ability to come back into covenant with Him again. This is why He had to resurrect, so we'd have a suitable bridegroom to remarry.

He freed us from the law that kept us from Him, but that law wasn't the whole law, it was the law of the adulterous bride. The law that kept us from being able to come into covenant with Him.

This is why Jesus says

For verily I say unto you, Till. heaven and earth pass, one jot or one. tittle shall in no wise pass from. the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 15:18

Heaven and earth are still here. In fact, in Jeremiah God says:

35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

In Jeremiah 31, God says that if the laws of the heavens at all pass away, then so will the seed of Israel from being a nation.

Heaven, comes from the hebrew word Shamayim, which means skies. So, what was meant by heaven and earth, was the skies and the earth. Verses 35 and 36, say that if the laws that direct the heavens passes away, then so will God's children. We have eternal life, which means we can't pass away, which means that the law of the heavens can't pass away. So, if Jesus said that the law won't pass until the heavens and the earth pass away, He wasn't actually saying that the law would be done away with, He was basically saying "when pigs fly", meaning, never.

Devin P · Feb 12, 2018

In Zechariah 14 God says in verse 1-3 that this chapter talks about the time after God returns -

Zechariah 14:1-3 -
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Then later on in the chapter, He talks about what will happen to the nations (goyim - aka gentiles) that don't keep the feast of tabernacles / sukkoth

Zechariah 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations (גוים goyim - aka gentiles) which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen (גּוֹי goy - gentile) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations ( גּוֹי goyim - aka, gentiles) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

If the law isn't meant for the gentiles, and it's done away with, then why in the end times, after Jesus returns, will He punish the gentiles for not keeping the law by their refusing to observe the holy feast of Sukkoth (tabernacles)?

Devin P · Feb 12, 2018

Plus, why would you not want to keep sukkoth? It's amazing, it's not hard work or anything. You set apart a small amount of money all year long so you can afford to go, then you buy whatever your heart desires. Cattle, food, strong drink, etc, and then you go out into the wilderness and camp essentially. When God returns, as men, we'd have to go to Jerusalem, but since the dispersion is still in effect that can't really happen until He returns to gather us back into Israel. But still, you spend a week with family and friends fellowshipping and camping, praising God, eating good food and enjoying yourselves, It's not hard at all, it's amazingly fun.

bugkiller · Feb 12, 2018

Devin P said:
He's not saying that the law died. He was referring to the fact that Israel was the adulterous bride to God, and he was referencing God's law regarding an adulterous bride, and what was to happen with a bride found guilty of adultery.

According to God's law, a bride that is found guilty of adultery was to be put away. She was to be cursed by having to observe the law that bound her by her husband, unable to marry another, and unable to be in covenant with her husband. No one else would marry her either, because they'd be cursed by and share in her sin of adultery. The bride was to be bound and cursed by this law that bound her to her husband, until either the she died, or until the bride's husband died.

Although, as Jesus points out, because of the hardness of their hearts, Moses gave them certificates of divorce, so that women could remarry, but it wasn't intended to be like this. Putting the adulterous bride away, suffering her to be bound to the law that bound her to her husband was how God intended it.

So, when He divorced Israel for their adultery, He put them away, forcing them to be bound to the law that kept them married to Him, but unable to come into covenant with Him, until either they all died out, or God died. This is why Jesus died, to free us from the the law of the adulterous bride, and granting us the ability to come back into covenant with Him again. This is why He had to resurrect, so we'd have a suitable bridegroom to remarry.

He freed us from the law that kept us from Him, but that law wasn't the whole law, it was the law of the adulterous bride. The law that kept us from being able to come into covenant with Him.

This is why Jesus says

For verily I say unto you, Till. heaven and earth pass, one jot or one. tittle shall in no wise pass from. the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 15:18

Heaven and earth are still here. In fact, in Jeremiah God says:

35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

In Jeremiah 31, God says that if the laws of the heavens at all pass away, then so will the seed of Israel from being a nation.

Heaven, comes from the hebrew word Shamayim, which means skies. So, what was meant by heaven and earth, was the skies and the earth. Verses 35 and 36, say that if the laws that direct the heavens passes away, then so will God's children. We have eternal life, which means we can't pass away, which means that the law of the heavens can't pass away. So, if Jesus said that the law won't pass until the heavens and the earth pass away, He wasn't actually saying that the law would be done away with, He was basically saying "when pigs fly", meaning, never.

Oh and raised eye brows as high as possible.

bugkiller

Devin P · Feb 12, 2018

bugkiller said:
So sorry but we have a new covenant that does not include the old one given at Sinai. This new covenant does not include any Jewish rites (laws and requirements) to acquire salvation. Christianity is not an extension of Judaism. The Gospels and testimony of Acts should be enough proof. I do not need Paul. I fully agree with Paul, who was chosen by God to perform as he did.

bugkiller

I never said the keeping the law was what we needed to do for salvation. We have to stop equating God's law with salvation. By observing God's law, we will not be saved, but because we are saved, we should desire to observe His law, because it's what He asks us to do.

You agree with Paul? What do you do with all of the times where Paul kept, and taught the keeping of the law? Not for salvation, but because of salvation.

Acts 25:8 - while he answered for himself, "Neither against the Law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."

Here he says that He kept torah "against the law of the jews."

Acts 18:21 - but took leave of them, saying, "I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing." And he sailed from Ephesus.

Here he is talking about his keeping the feast of unleavened bread in Jerusalem.

Romans 7:25 - I thank God--through Jesus the Messiah our Master! So then, with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the Law of sin.

Here he says that with His mind, he serves the law of God, but that his flesh still serves the law of sin. Which makes sense, because our bodies are corruptible until Jesus comes back and gives us our new incorruptible bodies.

Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of God, but the doers of the Law will be justified;

Here he's saying that hearing the law will not justify you, that you must do it. As it's written, "faith without works is dead", and as it's also written, "the one who practices righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous."

Acts 20:16 - For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hurried, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

This verse talks about how Paul was keeping Pentecost, and as the law said, he hurried to be in Jerusalem at the time of Pentecost, as it was required at the time (before the second temple fell).

There are many more examples, but you get my point.

Devin P · Feb 12, 2018

bugkiller said:
Oh and raised eye brows as high as possible.

bugkiller

In Zechariah 14 God says in verse 1-3 that this chapter talks about the time after God returns -

Zechariah 14:1-3 -
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Then later on in the chapter, He talks about what will happen to the nations (goyim - aka gentiles) that don't keep the feast of tabernacles / sukkoth

Zechariah 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations (גוים goyim - aka gentiles) which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen (גּוֹי goy - gentile) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations ( גּוֹי goyim - aka, gentiles) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

If the law isn't meant for the gentiles, and it's done away with, then why in the end times, after Jesus returns, will He punish the gentiles for not keeping the law by their refusing to observe the holy feast of Sukkoth (tabernacles)?

I know I'm just copying the post from earlier in the forums that I posted, but forget everything else I posted, and just read and respond to this, please.

Ron Gurley · Feb 12, 2018

OP: Q: ..."Is a true Christ-follower really "subject to" the OT (Mosaic) Laws?

A: Not "bound" by!

Jesus the Divine Messiah explained, confirmed, clarified, added to, completed and fulfilled OT Mosaic Law. NT => New Covenant!

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Luke 24:44
Now He said to them,
“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Hebrews 8:10
“For this is the covenant that I WILL make with the "house of Israel" AFTER those days,
says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds, (souls)
And I will write them on their hearts. (spirits?)
And I will be their God, And they shall be My people."

Joel 2:28 [ The Promise of the Spirit to Israel ]
“It WILL come about AFTER this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.

Romans 1...Unbelief and Its Consequences
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness,
of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident WITHIN them;
for God made it evident TO them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature,
have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been MADE,
so that they are without excuse.

Ron Gurley · Feb 12, 2018

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Buzz_B · Feb 12, 2018

Joseph Lim said:
Hello Daniel,

Your question "Is a Christian really subject to the Old Testament Law?" is clearly answered in the book of Galatians written by Paul. The whole 6 chapters explains clearly that Jesus came to free us from the law and that we are only, and I emphasize "only," justified by grace given by Jesus Christ.

To give some examples of what Paul is saying, in Galatians 2:21 it says "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing."(NIV)

First of all, the law in the OT is VERY extensive. There was nobody who could say that he or she kept those commandments without fail. Therefore, if we think that the law could justify our faith, we lose sight of Jesus Christ who came fully knowing that we are going to miss the mark of God EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. If we are bound by the law even after knowing that God has freed us then we are dismissing what Christ did on the cross for us.

Think about it like this. Let's say that you are in a jail cell, and that cell represents the bondage of sin, Jesus Christ came to set you free. He has unlocked the shackles from your wrists and opened the door to freedom. If you still remain in the law then you are choosing to remain in your cell all the while the door is open and all you have to do is step out of the cell and live in freedom.

Paul in Galatians 5 once again rebukes the people of Galatia. It says in verses 2-4, "Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (NIV)

Understand the context that circumcision was considered the sign that you are a part of God's community. As you might already know, same as baptism, circumcision doesn't grant you salvation. Only your faith in Jesus Christ does. Paul is essentially questioning why the people of Galatia has gone back to the law when they were doing so well before. I love the verse "you have fallen away from grace." Let's remember that without grace, we are nothing. Without grace, we will all end up in hell. God in His mercy, sent his Son, as a lamb to die for us. Let us not forget that we are justified by what Jesus Christ has done, and definitely not what we did.

God bless,

Joseph

But you fail to factor in that not all of the violations of that Old Law Covenant incurred death as a part of their sentence. And in hearing me say that, your mind will immediately leap to the thought that one who breaks even the least of those laws is guilty of all. However, there once again you have missed the understanding.

Context is essential. And in places where Paul makes quotes of the Old Testament, the Old Testament context becomes essential to what Paul says. And never in the history of Israel, at any time, did literally all become unfaithful. And you cannot find anywhere in the OT that literally all are shown as having become unfaithful. The prophets who served as messengers of God were not unfaithful, even while they spoke of the nation as a whole being unfaithful. And those who were faithful were tormented in their righteous souls, similar as Enoch was, because of that rampant unfaithfulness by the many. Those faithful died faithful just as Hebrews chapter 11 tells us and so that Old Law Covenant did not kill them.

I need to help the majority of you who are posting to this thread understand the difference between being killed by ones own disobedience to the Law and being put to death by the killers of God's prophets, those who were making a mockery of God's Law with their ritualistic application and then using their pride to condemn the innocent who refused to go along with them.

But first take time to ponder the truth of what I pointed out in the second paragraph. Go to Hebrews 11 and do not leave it until you see that the Old Law Covenant did not kill literally all, but only the law breakers, which just happened to be the majority of men, even as before that Old Law Covenant.

Then I will help you more fully grasp what Jesus did and why he could do it whereas those who previously died faithful could not do it. And it certainly was not this outrageous lie which claims God died so that the adulterous Israel could be freed to be married to him again under a New Covenant, like a second time married to him. That idea makes a mockery of both God and the Old covenant Law.

Buzz_B · Feb 13, 2018

While it is true that no one could actually observe all the commandments of the Law’s 600 or so points without mistake, there are other things which must be considered and weighed in to our conclusions:

One thing is that James is there reproving individuals who do claim to keep practically all the Law, and are using this belief that they do honor God's law, in a puffed up way as if it proves they are righteous. So James sets out to show them they are mistaken in their thinking.

Men tend to choose the parts of the Scriptures that they want to follow, and they tend to minimize or even completely fail to see other parts. The Law is one perfect unit as a covenant and therefore this tendency of men does offend that law as one perfect unit (called God's covenant), in which they mutually agreed to keep all of God's laws (Exodus 19:5-8; Exodus 24:6-7). This is in fact the meaning of the word, Amen. And the word, Amen, means that for us, also. To offend in the smallest of points of God's law is like defacing that covenant we made and we restate our commitment to each time we say, Amen. By even the smallest infraction we change God's covenant with us to our liking instead of God's liking, whether we are saying Amen to the Old Covenant or the New. Galatians 5:24-25

God has not made a covenant with us to approve lawlessness has he? Then if we are not doing as Galatians 5:16; Galatians 5:24-25 says, we are defacing our covenant and playing false to it.

If a person breaks one of the commandments of the Law, he fails to fulfill the purpose of entire law, and that purpose is to discourage lawbreakers, period. It is the same purpose for each of those 600 plus codes. Be untrue to that purpose for one law, even a law violation which does not incur death (1 John 5:16), and he has been untrue to the purpose which binds the entire law.

For this reason we can correctly say that the Mosaic law showed all to be sinners because no one could keep it perfectly. Still, we cannot on that basis claim that the law put all to death, for not all sins against that law did incur death but all that did not require death did require sacrifice for the sin. And so we see that though ones were considered as righteous in God's eyes, they had inability in themselves to deliver themselves from Adam's death sentence. Thus requiring the provision of a ransom by God furnishing that ransom for us, his Son who humbly left his heavenly estate and honored position with God his Father to do for us what we could not do.

We did not need the law to kill us because we were all already condemned of Adam's sin long before that Old Law Covenant. All the Old Law Covenant did was prove that to us. Not being able to keep it perfectly proved the sin in us which we bare of Adam. The entire focus is on rescuing us from Adam's sin and on the errors we make because of that bad beginning we had in Adam. Thus that Law Covenant proved all dead by Adam's sin and therefore it showed us what Paul said was true at Romans 3:19 “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” Thus we can correctly understand Paul at Romans 3:19 as telling us that the Law Covenant proved we are all justly classified as sinners by reason of our start in the fallen Adam and thus proven all to be by that start, sinners. All of our mouths, matter not whether Jew or Gentile, have been stopped from being able to proclaim our own righteousness. Thus our attributing of righteousness from Abel onward has always been only by the grace of God yet recognizing the intent of our hearts to have faith in God and desire to do right despite our inability to actually always do so which Adam caused to us when he sinned and brought his children up in the shadow of his sin. God's grace has always credited the ransom in advance for life to those God deemed faithful.

It was not necessary that the Old Law Covenant kill us all for violating its Laws, most of which were able to be sacrificed for so as not to incur death. All that Law needed to do was prove that all, the whole world, was already laboring under Adam's sin. And for that reason we needed God to provide a suitable ransom. And he did credit that ransom in advance for many.

This is an important point, also: A ransoming for sin would have to keep being offered to perpetuity if we continued to dip ourselves back into a baptism of sin. And that is why we are also required to learn from Christ how to walk by God's spirit so that we can do as Paul spoke at Galatians 5:16; Galatians 5:24-25. If we do not do that we are repeating the same mistakes which those under the Old Covenant made and in jeopardy of losing God's grace. 2 Corinthians 6:1

Buzz_B · Feb 13, 2018

Now I would like to acquaint you with a new term, “Flesh in your eyes.”

Whenever we see anyone focusing on flesh Israel as being the focus of what God is and has been doing we should automatically think of that focus as a red herring and cry, “Flesh in your eyes.”

As I have shown in post 90, the focus was and always has been on convicting the world of the sin infecting all of Adam. (Romans 3:19)

As Paul very clearly told us concerning the general condition of all fleshly races of mankind, “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Romans 3:9-18

Now pay attention and note that Paul was indeed comparing the races there above. He had began by asking if being a Jew makes us better than they (the Gentiles). He is quite clearly comparing the general condition of all fleshly races of mankind. And why is it important that we realize this is just a generalized comparison of what God sees if he would judge us by race? Because by race record we all would fail. And that is precisely why God does not judge us by race. Rather, without partiality, God looks for faithful individuals regardless of their race. And what Paul said about the general condition of the races does not apply to every individual of those races. We can correctly understand Paul's statement there as follows:

“What then? are we [as a race of Jews] better than they [as races of Gentiles]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none [of the races] righteous, no, not one [race]: There is none [of the races] that understandeth, there is none [of the races] that seeketh after God. They are all [all of the races of mankind] gone out of the way, they [all of the races of mankind] are together become unprofitable; there is none [of the races] that doeth good, no, not one [race].”

You get the drift. Paul's focus was on the races there rather than on individuals. We must follow his focus. Yet we see in places where Paul does acknowledge that there were certain righteous individuals recognized of God, such as in his words at Hebrews 11. And the fact that Paul makes the differentiation he does at 1 Timothy 1:9 also shows he recognized that there were some who were considered of God to be righteous in the past, and he knew they were able to be considered as righteous before that Old Law Covenant even came into existence. Hebrews 11 clearly shows he knew that.

King David lived under that Old Law Covenant and God said of him that he was a man after his own heart. 1 Samuel 16:1-13; 1 Samuel 13:14; Acts of the Apostles 13:22 And this despite that God also saw that David labored under Adam's sin. What a credit to our loving God who is near unto them that are of a broken heart; and saves such as be of a contrite spirit. Psalms 34:18

Hebrews 11:32, 39 “And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: ….... And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise..”

Paul was clearly speaking there in Romans 3 , even as he himself said, about the general condition one sees when looking at the races of mankind as whole units.

I hope this post has cleared up that confusion for us. Just remember that much of what is said is looking at mankind as one body of Adam, even as we are being saved as one body of Christ.

And so in conclusion I return to what I said at the start, "Whenever we see anyone focusing on flesh Israel as being the focus of what God is and has been doing we should automatically think of that focus as a red herring and cry, “Flesh in your eyes.”

"...the flesh profiteth nothing..." John 6:63

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." Philippians 3:3

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God ...." 1 Corinthians 15:50

"..no flesh should glory in his presence." 1 Corinthians 1:29

"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." 2 Corinthians 5:16

When we see anyone emphasizing a race of flesh, it is a red herring, and we should cry, "Flesh in your eyes."

Ron Gurley · Feb 13, 2018

I sure wish Paul/others would have replaced "flesh" with "sin nature".

Matthew 26:41
“Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh (sinful Body/Soul combo) is weak.”

the flesh...Greek 4561...sarx...
the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God;
human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specially), a human being (as such):—carnal minded),

Matthew 10:28
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (gehenna)

the body...Greek 4983...sōma...
I.the body both of men or animals
A.a dead body or corpse
B.the living body
i.of animals

Arsenios · Feb 13, 2018

DreamerOfTheHeart said:
Different ppl have different standards. Speaking of judgment.

I pray in the closet of my heart. It is a dialogue.

I am old school. I mortify my flesh in my own ways. Vigils, fasting, etc. Do I judge negatively ppl who do not skip sleep twice a week? No.

I do these things to get answers, it is natural. No rituals. Just as john the baptist mortified, old wine. Just as Jesus and his followers drank and ate.

In this environment, who can ask for more?
Self-devised disciplines is about all that can be served...
Tell me, my Brother...
Do you suffer from an excess of Joy?

Arsenios

Buzz_B · Feb 13, 2018

Ron Gurley said:
I sure wish Paul/others would have replaced "flesh" with "sin nature".

Matthew 26:41
“Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh (sinful Body/Soul combo) is weak.”

the flesh...Greek 4561...sarx...
the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God;
human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specially), a human being (as such):—carnal minded),

Matthew 10:28
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (gehenna)

the body...Greek 4983...sōma...
I.the body both of men or animals
A.a dead body or corpse
B.the living body
i.of animals

Yes, I agree. For the issue is not even that our literal flesh is bad in and of itself. It is neglected because its design is to be led by the spirit. Apart from being led by spirit it begins to succumb to the forces of corruption even before the moment it is born so that it is born unholy. And God will not sustain it by reason of that unholiness.

A mother's emotions affect the fetus. And genitive failures due to the parents lack of the full sustaining power of God working in them. It is as it asks in Job: "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4

God chose the purest race of people back to Adam to demonstrate to all races of mankind that we are all in that same spiritually deprived condition. That demonstration was all that mankind needed to be able to see their need for the Messiah. But because of our fallen spiritual condition we tend to have a difficult time seeing that we are not so special. All of us our born to the same afflictions.

Edit: It is interesting to also note that with the added words removed from 1 Corinthians 15:39 Paul says there is but "one sarx of man." The additional sarx is not considered added as the context and the grammar both directly support it.

fhansen · Feb 13, 2018

Jason0047 said:
The 1st and greatest commandment is loving God with all one's heart, strength, soul, and mind (Mark 12:30). The second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor (Mark 12:31). These I believe are the real first two commandments of God.

At a certain time under the Old Covenant: There were a total of 613 Commands given to Israel. The 10 commandments given to Israel (and not the church - Although 9 out of the 10 have been repeated as commands for us in the NT) are listed as such in Exodus 20:

You shall have no other gods before Me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything.

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Honor your father and your mother.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor's house, wife, or property.

I see the first three out of the 10 commandments (which was given to Moses) as referring to loving God. The 4th commandment, which is the Saturday Sabbath was a very important command to keep for Israelites in the Old Covenant (and not the New Covenant) because if they disobeyed this law, they could be put to death (physically). There is no such command like that under the New Covenant. We are not to be put to death other believers or anyone for disobeying the Sabbath. We received no new "Saturday Sabbath" commands from Jesus and His followers telling us how we must keep the Sabbath (or spiritual death is the result). The New Covenant officially went into effect with Christ's death. This is obvious in the fact that the temple veil was torn from top to bottom (ending those OT laws on animals sacrifices and the priesthood). This is obvious in the fact that Christ said that the wine in the Lord's supper was representative of his blood of the New Testament (i.e. New Covenant). New Covenant believers follow New Covenant commands and Old Covenant believers follow Old Covenant commands. We should not put new wine into old wine skins (or bottles).

Remember, Paul condemned "Circumcision Salvationism" in Galatians 5:2. Yet, in Genesis 17:14, "Circumcision Salvation" applied to certain Old Testament saints at one point in history (under the Old Covenant).

So Hebrews 7:12 is speaking the truth when it says that the Law has changed.

Buzz_B · Feb 13, 2018

Sometimes a man sweeps too broadly with his thoughts. The subject was the priesthood.

The former law concerned the priesthood of Aaron. The changed law concerns the priesthood according to the manner of Melchizedek.

That law changed so that it is no longer the Levitical priesthood we are focused on. But the spirit of much of that which Jason mentions has not changed. The spirit was always right. Man was just acting out a simulation of it in the physical for our reference. That simulation was merely a demonstration. There is yet a Sabbath remaining for us. But it is a better one than that mere demonstration.

Arsenios · Feb 13, 2018

bugkiller said:
And Paul says in 6 we have died. Therefore we no longer have any obligation to the law. In 7 Paul says the law died and we can be married to another.

Then in 8, Paul begins by defining his personal posture in what is to follow, saying: "I am speaking to those knowing the Law..." Paul elsewhere explains how it is that he becomes all things to all men that he should save some, remember? And that is what he is doing here, so as to persuade them of your 6 and 7 quotes... As one knowing the Law - eg married to the Law - eg as a Law regulated Jew - Yes? As this law governed person, he is unable to do what he desires, and does that which he hates... And the betinning of 9 begins: "I am giving thanks to God..." as the answer to the question that ends chapter 8...

Beginnings are important...

Arsenios

Joseph Lim · Feb 13, 2018

Buzz_B said:
But you fail to factor in that not all of the violations of that Old Law Covenant incurred death as a part of their sentence. And in hearing me say that, your mind will immediately leap to the thought that one who breaks even the least of those laws is guilty of all. However, there once again you have missed the understanding.

Context is essential. And in places where Paul makes quotes of the Old Testament, the Old Testament context becomes essential to what Paul says. And never in the history of Israel, at any time, did literally all become unfaithful. And you cannot find anywhere in the OT that literally all are shown as having become unfaithful. The prophets who served as messengers of God were not unfaithful, even while they spoke of the nation as a whole being unfaithful. And those who were faithful were tormented in their righteous souls, similar as Enoch was, because of that rampant unfaithfulness by the many. Those faithful died faithful just as Hebrews chapter 11 tells us and so that Old Law Covenant did not kill them.

I need to help the majority of you who are posting to this thread understand the difference between being killed by ones own disobedience to the Law and being put to death by the killers of God's prophets, those who were making a mockery of God's Law with their ritualistic application and then using their pride to condemn the innocent who refused to go along with them.

But first take time to ponder the truth of what I pointed out in the second paragraph. Go to Hebrews 11 and do not leave it until you see that the Old Law Covenant did not kill literally all, but only the law breakers, which just happened to be the majority of men, even as before that Old Law Covenant.

Then I will help you more fully grasp what Jesus did and why he could do it whereas those who previously died faithful could not do it. And it certainly was not this outrageous lie which claims God died so that the adulterous Israel could be freed to be married to him again under a New Covenant, like a second time married to him. That idea makes a mockery of both God and the Old covenant Law.

I never said that the violations of the Old Law Covenant incurred death nor did I say that you are punished for what laws you break. I do not see any correlation to what you are saying and what I said because what I was focusing on is that we are no longer bound by the Old Testament Law through Jesus Christ's sacrifice. All the while, I am not saying nor promoting that we go around and murder people since we are no longer under the law. I only specifically said that you are saved through faith in Jesus Christ and not by your works.

The main focus should be on faith and not on what you do. Yes, they are both important but I believe that faith in Jesus Christ derives all actions that are pleasing to God. Once you have tasted God's love, you start to desire for the things that God desires and God stirs your heart to seek for his Kingdom. If we start focusing on "not sinning" and looking "holy" on the outside like the people of Galatia did through circumcision for example, then why did Jesus die for us? If we CAN somehow manage to become sinless and live a perfect life, then Jesus Christ died for no purpose. My main argument is that we are not subject to the OT law because we are no longer justified by works. We are justified through faith.

Buzz_B · Feb 13, 2018

Joseph Lim said:
I never said that the violations of the Old Law Covenant incurred death nor did I say that you are punished for what laws you break. I do not see any correlation to what you are saying and what I said because what I was focusing on is that we are no longer bound by the Old Testament Law through Jesus Christ's sacrifice. All the while, I am not saying nor promoting that we go around and murder people since we are no longer under the law. I only specifically said that you are saved through faith in Jesus Christ and not by your works.

The main focus should be on faith and not on what you do. Yes, they are both important but I believe that faith in Jesus Christ derives all actions that are pleasing to God. Once you have tasted God's love, you start to desire for the things that God desires and God stirs your heart to seek for his Kingdom. If we start focusing on "not sinning" and looking "holy" on the outside like the people of Galatia did through circumcision for example, then why did Jesus die for us? If we CAN somehow manage to become sinless and live a perfect life, then Jesus Christ died for no purpose. My main argument is that we are not subject to the OT law because we are no longer justified by works. We are justified through faith.

Yes, I agree with you. I was noticing just a bit earlier that it seems I copied the wrong post rather than the one I meant to respond to. I like what you say and agree with you for the most part. I cannot at the moment think of anything you have said that I do disagree with. No, I am thinking of Devin P. My brain is functioning poorly.

I think I got the wrong poster. The poster I had in mind had said that God died for us, if that gives any clue to whom I meant to post to.

Sorry.

While I am at it, however, I would like to get your opinion of the following:

This may take some pondering.

When we consider Isaiah 50:1 it becomes quite apparent that God views the tribes of the children of Jacob as being formed in the figurative womb of the one to whom he was figuratively wed, that being Jerusalem.

Seeing that Paul clearly viewed himself as advancing in his service of God in the womb of the fleshly Jerusalem puts this all together for us. All we need do is compare 1 Corinthians 15:7-9 and Galatians 4:19-31 to Galatians 1:13-17 for us to know that at Galatians 1:15 the mother Paul had in mind from whose womb he was separated, was Jerusalem here on earth in the flesh.

This is all rather obvious, that just as Isaiah spoke of that woman who is Jerusalem here in the flesh at Isaiah 50:1 being their mother, and we see that at Isaiah 1:2 that Isaiah is acknowledging the same thing as Paul about Jerusalem here in the flesh being his mother in which God formed children. Why then do we fail to see that is also what is being spoken about at Jeremiah 1:5-7

These little things we overlook and misunderstand get twisted to support belief that God knows absolutely every shred of detail ahead of anything at all which happens in advance and has caused many to decide that from the beginning of eternity God must have planned for it all to happen exactly as it did. It causes some to struggle to invent wild defenses and yet others to resent a God who is supposed to love us but would plan in advance to make us suffer so as we do.

Edit: Pertaining to Devin P's comment in post 81: "So, when He divorced Israel for their adultery, He put them away, forcing them to be bound to the law that kept them married to Him, but unable to come into covenant with Him, until either they all died out, or God died."

What I am doing here is showing that God was married by Covenant to Jerusalem and that the children were only covenanted through that relationship by virtue of being children of that relationship.

Get my drift? No point to even asking how God divorced Israel. They were his children and either proved legitimate by obedience or illegitimate by disobedience.

Jerusalem is the only one God had to divorce but as we know, that divorce would not separate God from his legitimate children. And when his legitimate children grow up a father blesses their marriage to one of his choosing.

"They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation." Deuteronomy 32:5

I will go back and review your posts. My health is fighting me and so I am having a difficult time keeping things straight in my head. I did review it and remain as confused as I thought I was in the first place.

I agree with your post. I don't know what happened.

Arsenios · Feb 13, 2018

bugkiller said:
And Paul says in 6 we have died. Therefore we no longer have any obligation to the law. In 7 Paul says the law died and we can be married to another.

bugkiller

In 6 Paul is speaking as a Christian Apostle...

In 7 he shifts, until almost the end, speaking as one knowing (in obedience to) the Law of Moses to others who are also knowing the Law...

Chapter 7, you see, demonstrates, to those knowing the Law, that their efforts in obedience to the Law, do not and cannot overcome sin... Leading to the crisis at the end where one trying so hard fails time after time, and cries out in defeated agony:

Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am!
Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The answer, of course, is the Body of Christ...

So he writes:

Rom 7:25
I am thanking God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And he then returns to the original case as one who is knowing the Law:

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;
but with the flesh the law of sin.

Which is, of course, the case with one knowing the Law...
The are unable to overcome our own sin knowing the Law...
Paul himself, however, is thanking God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Arsenios

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