For all that fear hell

mkgal1

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The Bible uses several words that are translated into one idea: "an eternal spiritual realm separated forever and ever from God, angels, and saved believers aka the eternal spiritual heavenly realm"
Which is imagery and ideas that come from pagan Greek poets/writers of mythology.....not from Jesus. We should keep the original language and not reinvent the text for those ideas (Hades; Sheol; Gehenna Valley).

"In Greek mythology Hades was the god of the underworld, then the name of the nether world itself. Charon ferried the souls of the dead across the rivers Styx or Acheron into this abode, where the watchdog Cerberus guarded the gate so none might escape. The pagan myth contained all the elements for medieval eschatology: there was the pleasant Elyusium, the gloomy and miserable tartarus, and even the Plains of Asphodel, where ghosts could wander who were suited for neither of the above...The word hades came into biblical usage when the Septuagint translators chose it to represent the Hebrew sheol, an Old Testament concept vastly different from the pagan Greek notions just outlined. Sheol, too, received all the dead...but the Old Testament has no specific division there involving either punishment or reward." (Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes [Houston: Providential Press, 1982], p. 205.)


Plato, in his commentary on Timaeus, fully endorses what he says respecting the fabulous invention of these foreign torments. And Strabo says that “Plato and the Brahmins of India invented fables concerning the future judgments of hell” (Hades). And Chrysippus blames Plato for attempting to deter men from wrong by frightful stories of future punishments.

Plutarch treats the subject in the same way; sometimes arguing for them with great solemnity and earnestness, and on other occasions calling them “fabulous stories, the tales of mothers and nurses.”

Seneca says: “Those things which make the infernal regions terrible, the darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, &c., are all a fable, with which the poets amuse themselves, and by them agitate us with vain terrors.” Sextus Empiricuscalls them “poetic fables of hell;” and Cicero speaks of them as “silly absurdities and fables” (ineptiis ac fabulis).

Aristotle. “It has been handed down in mythical form from earliest times to posterity, that there are gods, and that the divine (Deity) compasses all nature. All beside this has been added, after the mythical style, for the purpose of persuading the multitude, and for the interests of the laws, and the advantage of the state.” Neander’s Church Hist., I, p. 7. , (Origin & History, 41-43.)


Lesson 3 – Hellenistic Influence – St John Episcopal Bible Classes

Hellenistic religion
 
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mkgal1

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I don't think we often realize how much of what we've been told for years (and read) shadows our understanding of Scripture. It's difficult to look at things with fresh eyes. The Mark passage seems to be one that comes up often in this discussion....but maybe try to look at it with the word "punishment" in place of "hell"? Try to strip away ideas of what sort of punishment that means. I happen to believe whatever sort of punishment it is....it has to be restorative and within the framework of love.

Jesus and His disciples are in Jerusalem....to the valley of Gehenna is near to them (I've even read it was within their view):

---->They went on from there and passed through Galilee. He did not want anyone to know it; 31 for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, ‘The Son of Man is to be betrayed into human hands, and they will kill him, and three days after being killed, he will rise again.’ 32 But they did not understand what he was saying and were afraid to ask him.~Mark 9:30-32


Another Exorcist
38 John said to him, ‘Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.’ 39 But Jesus said, ‘Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterwards to speak evil of me. 40 Whoever is not against us is for us. 41 For truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward.~Mark 9: 38-40

and the parallel:

The Reward of Service
…41Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man’s reward.And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.~Matthew 10:42



.....then it goes into the famous text about sin.
 
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Doug Melven

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Why is my argument that Jesus didn't use the word "hell" nonsense?
Because "hell" is an English word. And English wasn't spoken till about 500 years later.
.And as you keep pointing out, Gehenna is a place of fire and associated with punishment.
By the way, the idea of a burning garbage dump outside the city is a myth.
But, the fact that there were people who would sacrifice there children in fire was real.
Gehenna = Valley of Hinnom.
And Jesus used Gehenna as a place that people should avoid at all costs.

Normally when people say that you shouldn't fear hell, they say it is because of what Jesus has done for us on the cross.
But, you guys instead deny the existence of Gehenna.
I believe there are 2 reasons for this.
1. You have been deceived.
Because the Bible clearly states that those who reject Jesus Christ will be punished eternally.
2. This idea is much worse. You want people to think they don't have to make a decision to accept Christ in this life.
Whether you are stating annihilation, in which case those who have not accepted Christ, will be able to say, "Then I won't know what I am missing".
Or if you are stating everybody will be saved, in which case those who have not accepted Christ will be able to say, "I can just wait till the next life to accept Christ".

Either way, if people don't believe in Gehenna, they will think that they can just continue as they have: without Jesus Christ.

Me, personally, I don't like to preach the doctrine of hell to get people saved.
I think what can be accomplished by preaching wrath can be done much better by preaching on the love of God.
But for some, wrath needs to preached to. As Jude said:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
 
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mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
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Because "hell" is an English word. And English wasn't spoken till about 500 years later.
And that's my argument :scratch: IOW.....you're using MY argument to support your statement that MY argument is nonsense.

I don't know.....are you perhaps confused? Have you not read my posts?
 
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mkgal1

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By the way, the idea of a burning garbage dump outside the city is a myth.
But, the fact that there were people who would sacrifice there children in fire was real.
Gehenna = Valley of Hinnom.
Oh....you mean like "fake news"?

You can go there today and see it. It wasn't just garbage, but dead bodies of animals and vile criminals as well.

Doug Melven said:
But, you guys instead deny the existence of Gehenna.
Uh.....no! Gehenna truly exists. Where did you get that idea from (that I deny it exists....unless you're again trying to make it a place that's not of this world.....bringing "hell" in again)?



SewerChannel.jpg


Sewer Channel in Gehenna:
A sewer channel commonly ran under the streets of ancient cities. It traveled through the city gate and emptied into a nearby valley. Though the channels were probably used to drain rainwater from the towns, people also used them to dump human waste, garbage, and debris.

Such sewer channels were built in Jerusalem, where they were called the Hinnom Valley. Remains of channels have also been found at Beth Shan, Gezer, Beth Shemesh, and Lachish.

Trash and carcasses of unclean animals were continually burning in these valleys. A leper colony was sometimes nearby, since they had to be separated from the town's inhabitants. Although these practices were unsanitary and unattractive, they suited the ancient culture's needs and continued on into New Testament times.

By Jesus' time, the Hinnom Valley (Ge-Hinnom in Hebrew) was know by its Greek translation, Gehenna (see Matt. 5:22, 29; 10:28; 8:9; 23:33; Mark 9:43, 48; James 3:6)~Ray Vanderlaan

I bet you can even use Google maps and see it from wherever you are right now. It surely exists. I've NEVER denied that.
 
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Der Alte

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Oh....you mean like "fake news"?
You can go there today and see it. It wasn't just garbage, but dead bodies of animals and vile criminals as well.
Uh.....no! Gehenna truly exists. Where did you get that idea from (that I deny it exists....unless you're again trying to make it a place that's not of this world.....bringing "hell" in again)?
. . .
Trash and carcasses of unclean animals were continually burning in these valleys. A leper colony was sometimes nearby, since they had to be separated from the town's inhabitants. Although these practices were unsanitary and unattractive, they suited the ancient culture's needs and continued on into New Testament times.
By Jesus' time, the Hinnom Valley (Ge-Hinnom in Hebrew) was know by its Greek translation, Gehenna (see Matt. 5:22, 29; 10:28; 8:9; 23:33; Mark 9:43, 48; James 3:6)~Ray Vanderlaan
I bet you can even use Google maps and see it from wherever you are right now. It surely exists. I've NEVER denied that
.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism
 
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Der Alte

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According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, centuries before Dante, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.

Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
 
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Doug Melven

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Oh....you mean like "fake news"?

You can go there today and see it. It wasn't just garbage, but dead bodies of animals and vile criminals as well.


Uh.....no! Gehenna truly exists. Where did you get that idea from (that I deny it exists....unless you're again trying to make it a place that's not of this world.....bringing "hell" in again)?



SewerChannel.jpg


Sewer Channel in Gehenna:
A sewer channel commonly ran under the streets of ancient cities. It traveled through the city gate and emptied into a nearby valley. Though the channels were probably used to drain rainwater from the towns, people also used them to dump human waste, garbage, and debris.

Such sewer channels were built in Jerusalem, where they were called the Hinnom Valley. Remains of channels have also been found at Beth Shan, Gezer, Beth Shemesh, and Lachish.

Trash and carcasses of unclean animals were continually burning in these valleys. A leper colony was sometimes nearby, since they had to be separated from the town's inhabitants. Although these practices were unsanitary and unattractive, they suited the ancient culture's needs and continued on into New Testament times.

By Jesus' time, the Hinnom Valley (Ge-Hinnom in Hebrew) was know by its Greek translation, Gehenna (see Matt. 5:22, 29; 10:28; 8:9; 23:33; Mark 9:43, 48; James 3:6)~Ray Vanderlaan

I bet you can even use Google maps and see it from wherever you are right now. It surely exists. I've NEVER denied that.
So when Jesus was saying that people should avoid at all costs being thrown into Gehenna (Hell) you believe He was referring only to this valley outside the city.
Do you really think this valley outside the city sets on fire everybody's tongue?
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell (G1067)
 
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mkgal1

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So when Jesus was saying that people should avoid at all costs being thrown into Gehenna (Hell) you believe He was referring only to this valley outside the city.
Those weren't Jesus' words ("you should avoid at all costs being thrown into Gehenna"). His message was about the temptation of sin (and sacrifice....picking up one's cross)......Gehenna was used as a symbol of punishment and disgrace. In other words...."better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and be a public disgrace and grieve God's heart".

ETA: I realize my paraphrase is weak. It's difficult to articulate a paraphrase of what Jesus' message was. A person would have to understand the Jewish mindset at that time. In order to do that....they'd have to begin to understand about Jewish rituals; what they believed about cleanliness rituals related to the dead; wrap their minds around the horrors that haunted that valley....children thrown into fire by their own parents....etc. It's just not something to gloss over and believe it's understood easily. It also can't be placed into our culture....our mindset.

Do you really think this valley outside the city sets on fire everybody's tongue?

It's symbolism (and you seem to be trying to make it literal to mock another interpretation besides your own). But it was more than just literal. There are dark and evil implications the Jewish audience associated with Gehenna.

---->While this is the only passage speaking of gehenna outside the gospels, it is consistent with how Jesus defined it. James condemned misuse of the tongue, specifically in terms Jesus used the first time he used the word in Mt. 5:22, where he spoke of cursing one’s brethren putting one in danger of the hell of fire (gehenna—SGD). In Jas. 3.9, James said:

Therewith bless we the Lord and Father; and therewith curse we men, who are made after the likeness of God: out of the same mouth cometh forth blessing and cursing.

Thus, the last time gehenna occurred in the Bible, it taught the same thing it taught in the first. The Jew of Jesus’ day that abused his brother with his tongue was in danger of imminent, fiery, national destruction. He was headed for unquenchable fire on his generation, in his generation.

We see the same imminence of this judgment against Jesus’ generation of Jews later in James. For example, in Jas. 5:5, James mentioned a day of slaughter coming. In Jas. 5:7, he mentioned the coming of the Lord. In Jas. 5:8, he said the coming of the Lord was “at hand.” In Jas. 5:9, he said “the judge standeth before the door.”~Jesus' Teaching On Hell

Have you read about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD? Are you aware of the number of people killed? Where do you think they disposed of all those dead bodies at one time?
 
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Hillsage

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So you think "hell" means "grave"?
NO. I think HADES means GRAVE. I think HELL should be discarded for being the very carnal minded invention it is.

To be technically correct Jesus never used the word "HELL", BUT he also never used the word "HADES", because Jesus never spoke GREEK either, as far as we know.

Only when the Greek word is "Hades". Not with Gehenna. As in these verses.
Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
NO. I've never said HADES and GEHENNA are the same place. YOU GUYS are saying that because you read that in bibles which interpret three different words and places as one place, and that is HELL.

How do you come to that conclusion?
Jesus described it as a place of torment in Mark.
9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Or don't you think that will be a place of torment?
Sure, but not for 'dead flesh' eaten by worms. And no more 'torment' from the FIRE than God reserves for purging sinful Jews in the OT.

Isaiah 4:4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

So yes, we believe in a painful purgative process. But nothing like the purposeless never ending torture you believe in. I believe that through the loving purpose of God, every pang of torment will be like a birth pang; and the love and grace of God will not be absent--as He is “making all things new.”.....even as He is birthing life out of death.

If you look at the text in Matthew 25:31-46 you will see that the Blessed did certain things.
Doing those things did not make them blessed, but because they were blessed they did those things.
The ones who were cursed did evil things because they were cursed, doing evil things did not make them cursed.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
That verse says it best. We didn't sin to become sinners, Adam made us so.
But when we repented, we were made righteous and became blessed.

YOU'RE right, they did those things because they WERE CURSED by GOD to begin with. That's why it's HIS plan to also save them...ultimately. If not in this age then "in the ages to come."

Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

His curse upon ALL was that He might have mercy on ALL. So it is 'His curse' and 'His plan' for 'His all'. :)
 
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mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
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they WERE CURSED by GOD to begin with
That may be the only thing I've ever disagreed with you on, Hillsage (or maybe I'm misunderstanding?).

I don't believe God cursed Adam and/or Eve or any of us humans. I believe He cursed the ground ....He cursed the serpent...and He imposed pain and sorrow in childbirth for Eve....and Adam in toil will eat from the ground, but I don't see that He cursed Adam and Eve.
 
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Hillsage

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That may be the only thing I've ever disagreed with you on, Hillsage (or maybe I'm misunderstanding?).

I don't believe God cursed Adam and/or Eve or any of us humans. I believe He cursed the ground ....He cursed the serpent...and He imposed pain and sorrow in childbirth for Eve....and Adam in toil will eat from the ground, but I don't see that He cursed Adam and Eve.
Good, let's discuss it then. Iron sharpening iron....right? :)

I thought Doug made a pretty good point with his comment on Matt 25 concerning people doing what they did because they were cursed and sinners. But, at your challenge I went back, and I now say they were JUDGED because they were cursed and sinners. But context doesn't really say they were so from birth as I believed Doug stated.

So, when you read "God consigned all men TO DISOBEDIENCE", that would also include ADAM right? Would you think that also could be considered a 'curse upon all men'?
 
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mkgal1

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Good, let's discuss it then. Iron sharpening iron....right? :)
Absolutely :)

I thought Doug made a pretty good point with his comment on Matt 25 concerning people doing what they did because they were cursed and sinners. But, at your challenge I went back, and I now say they were JUDGED because they were cursed and sinners. But context doesn't really say they were so from birth as I believed Doug stated.

So, when you read "God consigned all men TO DISOBEDIENCE", that would also include ADAM right? Would you think that also could be considered a 'curse upon all men'?
Yeah...I guess that would have to include Adam. That *does* certainly seem like a 'curse upon all men'. I may need to give that some more thought. I don't think I've really spent much time on that passage (in Romans 11:32).
 
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mkgal1

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So, when you read "God consigned all men TO DISOBEDIENCE", that would also include ADAM right? Would you think that also could be considered a 'curse upon all men'?
I'm glad you brought this up, I don't think I'd really given this much thought before.

I found this article...and this makes sense to me:

----->I prefer the Phillip’s version: “God has all men penned together in the prison of disobedience, that he may have mercy upon them all.” We get no credit or glory. It all belongs to God our Father. He takes the blame and gets all the glory. It’s a “no brainer” kind of deal.



Who is good enough for God? According to this verse ALL men, though disobedient, will ultimately be reckoned good enough for God, not because of their actions or lack of same but because of God’s gift to us in Christ. Psychologists know that people act out their self-image, some of which came to them from their birth family or from the culture into which they were born. What a difference we would see in the crime rate and the personal happiness of everyone if church leaders would really tell the good news of God’s unconditional love, instead of laying rules on people. I’m thankful many writers and speakers like Richard Rohr are changing their methodology of helping people enter God’s presence. The answer to all of our problems really is the unconditional, continuous love of God which is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.



Most of us remember the story of the man who ran up to Jesus and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:17-18) Jesus was speaking to people still living under law because He had not yet nailed it to the cross. The result of his sacrifice was that we are now saved, delivered from ourselves, and transported from Mount Sinai to Mount Zion, the holy mount of God. The goal then is not to strive to be good, as I always thought, but to see by the Spirit, that we ARE His children, born from above, bearing within us his very DNA, and when we see Him as He is, we shall be like him (I John 3:2). Hallelujah!~Good Enough for God
 
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Hillsage

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I'm glad you brought this up, I don't think I'd really given this much thought before.

I found this article...and this makes sense to me:

----->I prefer the Phillip’s version: “God has all men penned together in the prison of disobedience, that he may have mercy upon them all.” We get no credit or glory. It all belongs to God our Father. He takes the blame and gets all the glory. It’s a “no brainer” kind of deal.



Who is good enough for God? According to this verse ALL men, though disobedient, will ultimately be reckoned good enough for God, not because of their actions or lack of same but because of God’s gift to us in Christ. Psychologists know that people act out their self-image, some of which came to them from their birth family or from the culture into which they were born. What a difference we would see in the crime rate and the personal happiness of everyone if church leaders would really tell the good news of God’s unconditional love, instead of laying rules on people. I’m thankful many writers and speakers like Richard Rohr are changing their methodology of helping people enter God’s presence. The answer to all of our problems really is the unconditional, continuous love of God which is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.



Most of us remember the story of the man who ran up to Jesus and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:17-18) Jesus was speaking to people still living under law because He had not yet nailed it to the cross. The result of his sacrifice was that we are now saved, delivered from ourselves, and transported from Mount Sinai to Mount Zion, the holy mount of God. The goal then is not to strive to be good, as I always thought, but to see by the Spirit, that we ARE His children, born from above, bearing within us his very DNA, and when we see Him as He is, we shall be like him (I John 3:2). Hallelujah!~Good Enough for God
Truly God deals with all according to the counsel of His will. And though I certainly don't declare there is still much I don't understand about the Ultimate Reconciliation of all, I still find that 'that belief' gives me a liberty to truly love those who are so easily given up on, by the majority.
 
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sdowney717

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I studied this for 10 years just hoping it was true. Since then I've totally believed it is. And I'm not here to win. I'm here presenting a POV you aren't doing so hot on refuting, so the wining or losing tag still sticks on you and not me.....friend.
I read your posts and your pushing heretical views there about the judgement of hell, perhaps your a part of the falling away, great apostasy of the end times.

Matthew 23:33
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
 
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Der Alte

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Those weren't Jesus' words ("you should avoid at all costs being thrown into Gehenna"). His message was about the temptation of sin (and sacrifice....picking up one's cross)......Gehenna was used as a symbol of punishment and disgrace. In other words...."better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and be a public disgrace and grieve God's heart".

Where is the scripture which says "better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and be a public disgrace and grieve God's heart?"
It's symbolism (and you seem to be trying to make it literal to mock another interpretation besides your own).
Someone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by claiming what is written is symbolism, allegory, figurative etc.
---->While this is the only passage speaking of
gehenna outside the gospels, it is consistent with how Jesus defined it. James condemned misuse of the tongue, specifically in terms Jesus used the first time he used the word in Mt. 5:22, where he spoke of cursing one’s brethren putting one in danger of the hell of fire (gehenna—SGD). In Jas. 3.9, James said:
Therewith bless we the Lord and Father; and therewith curse we men, who are made after the likeness of God: out of the same mouth cometh forth blessing and cursing.
Thus, the last time
gehenna occurred in the Bible, it taught the same thing it taught in the first. The Jew of Jesus’ day that abused his brother with his tongue was in danger of imminent, fiery, national destruction. He was headed for unquenchable fire on his generation, in his generation.
We see the same imminence of this judgment against Jesus’ generation of Jews later in James. For example, in Jas. 5:5, James mentioned a day of slaughter coming. In Jas. 5:7, he mentioned the coming of the Lord. In Jas. 5:8, he said the coming of the Lord was “at hand.” In Jas. 5:9, he said “the judge standeth before the door.”~Jesus' Teaching On Hell
 
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mkgal1

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I read your posts and your pushing heretical views there about the judgement of hell, perhaps your a part of the falling away, great apostasy of the end times.

Matthew 23:33
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Show me where it has ever been deemed heresy. I first learned about Ultimate Reconciliation through a Catholic and Greek Orthodox priest that are both in good standing with their respective churches. You can read about it on the main church pages (It's not condemned...but there also isn't any firm dogmatic stance either). This book can most likely be found in your local Catholic church library. If you wish to believe it's from "the falling away".. go ahead (but I'd recommend doing some research first):


518SpBEoc2L._SX348_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1586...n+be+saved&dpPl=1&dpID=518SpBEoc2L&ref=plSrch
 
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Show me where it has ever been deemed heresy. I first learned about Ultimate Reconciliation through a Catholic and Greek Orthodox priest that are both in good standing with the church. You can read about it on the main church pages (It's not condemned...but there also isn't any firm dogmatic stance either). This book can most likely be found in your local Catholic church library. If you wish to believe it's from "the falling away".. go ahead (but I'd recommend doing some research first):

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1586...n+be+saved&dpPl=1&dpID=518SpBEoc2L&ref=plSrch
Jesus says they do not have eternal life. But you say they do.
The state is eternal life or eternal death. And you don't flip back and forth between them.
Eternal is also everlasting.
 
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sdowney717

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Everlasting in the NT scriptures.

Matthew 18:8
“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 16:9
“And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by unrighteous mammon, that when you fail, they may receive you into an everlasting home.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 4:14
but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 5:24
[ Life and Judgment Are Through the Son ] “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 6:27
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 6:47
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 12:50
And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 8:31
[ God’s Everlasting Love ] What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 16:26
but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Galatians 6:8
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Thessalonians 2:16
Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Timothy 1:16
However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Timothy 6:16
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Hebrews 13:20
[ Benediction, Final Exhortation, Farewell ] Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlastingcovenant,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 Peter 1:11
for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 14:6
[ The Proclamations of Three Angels ] Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—
 
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